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.45-70 Government
Fish and Hunt Texas ^ | Dec 2004 | Clay Oldham

Posted on 10/10/2005 3:25:43 PM PDT by 45Auto

Some cartridges just seem to live forever. Thankfully the 45-70 Government is one of them. It began life in the days of black powder and has evolved over time into the cartridge we know today. After owning and shooting several guns chambered for it it’s easy for me to see why. It’s accurate, easy to reload for, and hits like a freight train. From the muzzle to 150-200 yard range this old cartridge is hard to beat.

To really see the true performance of this round you do need to hand load for it though. Factory ammunition lacks the true performance the 45-70 is capable of producing. It seems almost any load will shoot accurately in a rifle or handgun. If you are willing to endure a little punishment, the old 45-70 Govt. will show you the love. Recoil can be heavy but it’s well worth it. Since the 45-70 is a low pressure round the strait walled cases will last for a very long time. The large rim makes it a natural for single shot rifles and handguns.

A heavy roll crimp is a must to keep bullets in place under the heavy recoil of a repeating firearm. I recommend separating bullet seating and crimping into two steps to insure the crimp is solid. Be sure to follow the loading data recommended for the firearm you are using. Most manuals have several levels for the 45-70. Light loads for the old or antique guns, a little heavier level for modern guns such as the Marlin 1895 lever actions, and heavy loads for guns like the Ruger No. 1’s and the Browning 1885. Care should be taken to insure the proper data is being used for your gun.

The results of improperly hand loading the 45-70 can deadly. Be careful! The best powders I’ve found so far are Reloader 7 and IMR 3031. As far as bullets, I’ve tried from 300-grain up to a hard-cast 510-grain flat nose. Firing the 510-grain bullets from a 14” Thompson/Center Contender is an experience not soon for gotten. The 300-grain hollow points are common among deer hunters and offer higher velocities than heaver bullets. I’ve used them in the past with good luck in T/C Contenders. They are accurate and hit hard.

For deer the 300-grainers are probably the best choice. I used Sierra’s 300-grain hollow point with IMR 3031, in both the 16” and Super 14” Contender barrels I’ve owned. Accuracy from a scoped T/C Contender is phenomenal. Last fall I started using a 350-grain Hornady flat-point in my Marlin 1895 “Guide Gun” with Reloader 7 and now prefer it to the lighter bullet. This load kicks like a mad mule but hits just as hard. I truly believe it will take any game in Texas, or the world for that matter with authority, excluding truly dangerous game. At the time I’m writing this I’ve not tried the 400-grain or heaver bullets in my rifle but plan to try them soon and will update this article once I have a good load. A hunter looking for this type of cartridge but who prefers to shoot factory ammunition, the 450 Marlin is the one. It was developed as a joint effort between Marlin and Hornady to duplicate the performance of heavy loads in the 45-70.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: 4570; banglist; gunporn; rkba
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1 posted on 10/10/2005 3:25:51 PM PDT by 45Auto
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To: 45Auto

I used to have a 45-70 barrel for my TC. Alas, I don't have the wrist for it so I sold it off to a fellow with arms like oak trees who thinks that it is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

It is a fantastic round though. I do have a 45-70 barrel on my Encore.


2 posted on 10/10/2005 3:28:52 PM PDT by N2Gems
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To: 45Auto

I used to deer hunt with a guy who shot a .45-70. He had a prosthetic leg (I though he just limped). I asked him why he shot such a large round and he replied, "Son, I only got one leg. I can't be chasin' no deer throught the woods!"


3 posted on 10/10/2005 3:33:50 PM PDT by ConservativeBamaFan
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To: N2Gems

Navy Arms used to sell Mauser Rifles with the chambers bored out to .45-70. You could order extened 45-70 brass which efectively made the hitting power of the rifle like a large calibre weatherby magnum. A moose hit in the shoulder would be rolled right over , legs up , almost before it hit the ground!

Nice rifle! Nice caliber!


4 posted on 10/10/2005 3:40:22 PM PDT by Candor7 (Into Liberal Flatulence Goes the Hope of the West)
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To: N2Gems

Navy Arms used to sell Mauser Rifles with the chambers bored out to .45-70, and a heavy new 45-70 barrel. You could order extended 45-70 brass which effectively made the hitting power of the rifle like a large caliber Weatherby magnum. A moose hit in the shoulder would be rolled right over , legs up , almost before it hit the ground!

Nice rifle! Nice caliber!


5 posted on 10/10/2005 3:41:16 PM PDT by Candor7 (Into Liberal Flatulence Goes the Hope of the West)
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To: 45Auto

Ouch.


6 posted on 10/10/2005 3:43:26 PM PDT by absalom01 (NRA,CRPA)
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To: 45Auto

.45-70 at Two Miles: The Sandy Hook Tests of 1879

RIFLE MAGAZINE, NOVEMBER-DECEMBER 1977

THE SHOOTER at the heavy bench rest squinted as he aligned his .45-70 Allin-Springfield Model 1873 Army rifle on the distant target. The rifle fore-stock and barrel was cradled in a rest; the butt was supported by his shoulder. The rear sight was flipped up to its full height, so with no stock support for his head, the rifle tester from Springfield Armory worked carefully to align high rear and low muzzle sight on the speck that was the target - a surveyed 2,500 yards distant.

Holding his breath, he squeezed the 7-pound trigger. The rifle fired, and some 15 seconds later, signals from the target indicated that his shot had struck well inside the 6-foot diameter bullseye on a target well over a mile away!

The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, "Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms," had this to say:

"The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.
In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used."

The chapter on long range firing begins with a report from the Armory at Springfield, Massachusetts, May 9, 1879. It records the results of long range tests of U.S. Army Model 1873 .45-caliber rifles using 405 and 500-grain lead bullets, including variations in muzzle velocity and penetration of lead bullets through one-inch target boards and into sand. These tests were made at the request of the Chief of Ordnance. His interest had been aroused by reports of long range infantry fire, up to 1½ miles, during the1877-78 Turko-Russian War.
The line age of the "trapdoor" rifles used in the tests is apparent from the separate lock plate, the massive side hammer, the milling out of a portion of barrel and fitting a breechblock hinged at the front - all clear indications that the rifles were merely breech-loading variations of the traditional muzzle-loading infantry-man's rifle. The Allin conversion of the 1861 and 1863 models Springfield muzzle-loaders came out first in .58 caliber rimfire. Later refinements resulted in the .50-70 rimmed centerfire for the 1866 model. The .45-70 cartridge was first introduced with the Model 1873 single shot Springfield. Several model changes were made from 1873 through 1889, relatively minor differences being the type of sights, modified and improved breech-blocks and changes in stock furniture.

The first long range tests were made at ranges of up to 1,500 yards on the Springfield Armory test range at Long Meadow, Massachusetts. These tests compared the long distance shooting and penetration performance of the .45 caliber trapdoor Springfield and the .45 caliber Martini-Henry rifles.

The Springfield rifle weighed about 9.6 pounds, had a rifle barrel 33 inches long with a bore diameter of .450-inch, three grooves and a right hand twist and groove depth of .005-inch. It fired the then standard Service round consisting of the 405-grain bullet in the rimmed straight case 2.1 inches long with 70 grains of black powder giving a muzzle velocity (MV) of 1,350 feet-per-second (fps). With the same weight of bullet and a charge of 85 grains of powder, the MV was 1,480 fps.

The British Army .450-577 Martini-Henry lever-operated, drop-block action was far stronger than the Allin trapdoor breech. The Martini-Henry weighed about 9½ pounds, had a barrel 33 inches long with a right-hand twist, seven groove bore. The bore diameter was .450, and the groove diameter was .463. The .450-577 Martini-Henry cartridge was a muscular creation. It was based upon a sharply necked-down and lengthened .577-inch Snider case, loaded with a 480-grain lead bullet of .445 diameter, backed by 85 grains of black powder for a muzzle velocity of 1,253 fps.

The following table gives the angles of elevation for these loads from the actual test firings at 1,000 and 1,500 yards. Accuracy firings of the rifles were made at 300, 500 and 1,000 yards.


SPRINGFIELD and MARTINI-HENRY
ANGLES OF ELEVATION

1,000 yards 1,500 yards
.45-85-405 Springfield Long Range 2d 40' 53" 4d 35' 34"
.45-70-405 Springfield Service 3d 6' 37" 5d 20' 4"
.45-85-480 Martini-Henry 3d 18' 36" 5d 41' 24"

VERTICAL and HORIZONTAL SHOT DISPERSION AT 1,000 YARDS

Mean Mean Mean
Horizontal Vertical Radius
Springfield 9.23" 16.8" 19.1"
Martini-Henry 10.9" 14.55" 18.2"



Though there is no direct relationship between mean radius and group size figures, a mean radius of 18 to 19 inches would probably translate into a group size of between 55 and 70 inches. Old Ordnance records show that when fired from a machine rest the .45 Springfield was expected to group all of its bullets inside a 4-inch circle at 100 yards, in a 11-inch bull's-eye at 300 yards, and inside a 27-inch circle at 500 yards.

At 1,000 and 1,500 yards, as expected, the mean vertical figures are considerably larger than the mean horizontal. (See the above table.) This is the result of variations in muzzle velocity, which gives this dispersion at long range, and also the effect of the high trajectory of these rifle bullets since the target is perpendicular to the ground, while the bullet is descending at an angle.

The report of October 15, 1879, covers long range firing at Sandy Hook, New Jersey. This was done along the beach to make the location of the bullet strike easier to find. Also, the long beaches allowed shooting back to 3,200 and even 3,500 yards.

The rifles tested included a special "long range" Springfield chambered for a 2.4-inch shell instead of the standard 2.1-inch case. The 2.4-inch case held 80 grains of black powder behind the new prototype 500-grain lead bullet. The other loads tested were the standard .45-70-405 Army load in the issue M-1873 Springfield, and the .45-85-480 load in the British Martini-Henry rifle.

The report states that a leaf to the rear sight several inches long was prepared in order to obtain the necessary elevation. A combination of the V-notch slide of the regular issue sight and a screw at the bottom of the leaf afforded means of correcting for wind and drift.

The target, which had been 12 feet by 12 feet square at 1,500 yards, was changed to one 44 feet long by 22 feet high. The extended wings had a height of 16 feet.

Since one of the test's objectives was to gauge bullet penetration, the huge target consisted of three 1-inch thick boards, separated by 1-inch cleats. The target was supported on 6-inch spruce posts and was constructed partly of spruce and partly pine, since this was the wood at hand.

In the tests at 2,500 yards, the target was hit five times in seventy rounds with the .45-70-405 service load, only once with the Martini-Henry in eighty rounds, and four times with the long range Springfield in thirty shots.

When the Springfield long range cartridge was fired, the 500-grain blunt nosed lead bullets propelled by 80 grains of black powder in the 2.4-inch cases at about 1,375 fps penetrated right through the three inches of wooden target and buried themselves in the sand. One 500-grain slug pierced three inches of target and buried itself in a supporting six-inch post, giving a total penetration of a measured 5.25 inches. The Service 405-grain bullet gave a penetration of just 1.12 inches, and the Martini-Henry 480-grain bullet, 2.50 inches.

Angles of rifle elevation were: Springfield service .45-70-405 - 17°08'16"; Springfield long range .45-80-500 - l0°38'21"; and Martini-Henry .45-85-480 - 13°20'18".

The angle made by the shot holes with the face of the target appeared to be about 40 degrees for the service Springfield, 45 degrees for the Martini-Henry, and 50 degrees for the long range Springfield. This angle is taken from the vertical and thus the lower angular reading indicates the higher angle of descent. Various kinds of bullets were dug out of the sand within 45 feet of the target and directly behind it. This shows the great angle of trajectory at this range and how extremely difficult it was for Mr. R.T. Hare to hit a 2,500-yard target the size of the one used.

The target 22 feet high by 44 feet long was then placed at 3,200 yards from the firer. The range chosen was fortunate in that it was found to be the extreme for the Martini-Henry. When the firer was instructed to increase his elevation, the range decreased. On decreasing the elevation, the range increased to a certain point.

The majority of the Martini .45-85-480 balls fell from 50 to 100 yards short, while the others did not go more than 25 yards beyond. More than 300 Martini-Henry cartridges were fired, but the target was not hit.

The long range Springfield's 500-grain bullets hit the target four times - twice where it was one board thick, and twice where it was two boards thick. In each case the heavy blunt nosed lead bullet punched through the wood planks and buried itself several inches into the sand.

At this extreme surveyed range, the angle of fall of the Martini 480-grain lead bullets was about 65 degrees to 70 degrees judging from the holes in the moist sand. Bullets were found in the sand behind the 22-foot-high target at a distance of only 35 feet. It was evident that they struck the sand point on, as the lead noses were always found rough.

In the case of the long range Springfield, the angle of the shot hole with the face of the target was about 30 degrees and the heavy bullet in punching through two one-inch boards actually penetrated a total of 2.5 inches. Those lead slugs that struck in the sand generally penetrated to a depth of 8 to 10 inches, sometimes more.

In this respect the Armory's 500-grain balls surpassed the Martini's 480-grain balls, which did not penetrate more than 6 inches into sand. In trying to get the correct 3,200-yard elevation, the long range bullets were thrown over 300 yards beyond the target. These were then dug out of the beach and all were found to have struck point on.

For the .45-80-500 2.4-inch case Springfield long range rifle at a MV of about 1,375 fps, the angle of elevation was 20°51'37". For the .45-85-480 Martini-Henry at 1,253 fps MV, the angle of elevation was 26°5l'.

The report of November 13, 1879, lists the results of firing tests made at 3,500 yards distance with two long range Springfields. One had a rifle barrel with a l-in-18 rifling twist, the other .45-80-500 had a 19 5/8-inch twist. Two different loads were used: .45-70-500, and .45-80-500. The Martini-Henry .45-85-480 and the service .45-70-405 Springfields were again tested against a Sharps-Borchardt using the same loads as in the long range M-1873 Allin-Springfields. After firing many rounds, the service Springfield and Martini-Henry rounds failed to reach the target at 3,500 yards.

In these firing experiments, two telephones provided with Blake transmitters were used for timing the bullet's flight. One was placed within a few feet of the rifle, to receive and transmit the sound of the shot. The other Blake unit was nearly two miles downrange in the shelterproof, which was located about 30 feet in front of the right edge of the target. At the instant the sound of the discharge was heard over the telephone, a watch ticking fourth-seconds was started. At the sound of the bullet striking target or sand, it was stopped. Average time of flight for the .45-70-500-grain load was 21.2 seconds, With the more powerful .45-80-500-grain cartridge the time-of-flight was 20.8 seconds.

For 3,500 yards distance, angles of elevation ran from 27 degrees to 29 degrees. This varied drastically from day to day due to the effects of head and tail winds. The quicker-twist rifles required less elevation than the others at the same range. The greatest distance obtained with the .45-caliber long range, 1-in-18 twist Springfield rifle was 3,680 yards. Angle of elevation didn't exceed 32 degrees on a day when an angle of about 25 degrees placed bullets all around the target at 3,500 yards range.

While these tests may be considered mere oddities today, they proved extremely useful at the time. The fact that the 500-grain bullet penetrated through the three-plank target and eight inches into sand meant that it could kill or wound enemy troops at extreme distances, even if they were partially protected and that was significant military information in a period when it was quite usual for large masses of troops to form up within view of defenders. Although no average infantryman could be expected to equal Mr. Hare's accuracy, a large number of defenders shooting from barricade rests and given the proper sight adjustments for the range could severely harass companies and larger bodies of enemy troops at previously unheard-of ranges. It may have been these tests, and this line of thinking, that caused military theoreticians to employ machine guns for indirect, high trajectory fire in the same manner as artillery during the earlier stages of World War I.

Since the tests showed that the 405-grain service bullet failed to perform as well as the 500-grain, and that the 500-grain bullet showed relatively little difference when propelled by either 70 or 80 grains of black powder, the .45-70-500 load in the service 2.1-inch case was adopted as standard for rifles. Thus those little-remembered Sandy Hook tests of 1879 had a lasting impact on firearms history without them, the gun companies might have recently resurrected the .45-80.


7 posted on 10/10/2005 3:47:32 PM PDT by HuntsvilleTxVeteran ("In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit." AYN RAND)
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To: Candor7

Had a gunsmith friend build one for me over thirty years ago, using a Santa-Barbara Mauser action and a Douglas barrel. Cast the bullets, loaded my own also. Used it on wild pigs in the Savannah, GA area while living there. One-shot stops. Works equally well on deer.

Now the recoil is too much for me. Fun while it lasted.


8 posted on 10/10/2005 3:50:19 PM PDT by toddst
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To: 45Auto

Sweet gun.. I used to have the TC with a 10" 44 magnum for deer and just the iron sites.. It was excellent out to 100 yards with 240gr SJWC. I also had a 14" barrel in .222 Remington and a 4 power Burris. It was good for prairie dogs out to a little over 200 yds..

At that time, my friend carried a Ruger No. 3 in 45-70. Light gun that taught me to respect recoil. Good shooting though.


9 posted on 10/10/2005 3:53:17 PM PDT by tje
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To: tje

make that JHP


10 posted on 10/10/2005 3:56:01 PM PDT by tje
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To: 45Auto
To really see the true performance of this round you do need to hand load for it though.

Not really true anymore. The standard load for 45-70 is pretty weak, because many older guns can't take high pressures of modern powders. However specialty companies like Cor-Bon, Garret and Buffalo Bore make awesome loads for this cartridge that bring it up to nearly the level of a 458 Winchester magnum. They are sold with strict warnings that they should be used only in newer guns designed for high-pressure cartridges.

11 posted on 10/10/2005 4:02:43 PM PDT by Hugin
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To: 45Auto
I shoot the 45-70 from a Magnum Research BFR Revolver with 10" barrel. Max pressure is 31,000 PSI. I also purchased a Marlin 1895G guide gun. Max pressure is 40,000 CUP. The T/C Contender barrels are rated 50,000 CUP. The BFR cylinder is long enough to accomodate the 500 gr bullet. I usually shoot 325 gr JHP for plinking. The biggest challenge is keeping the powder near the primer and getting a consistent ignition. A little cotton batting on top of the powder can assist that problem.


12 posted on 10/10/2005 4:03:02 PM PDT by Myrddin
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To: 45Auto

I have both a 1886 Winchester in .45-70 and a trap door Springfield. When I hunted, the Springfield was my favorite deer gun , unless I had to walk a long distance in which case I would go for a lighter BLR. I am so slow I never got off more than one aimed shot anyway so there was little point to a repeater.

It is a great cartridge, and still a good one for <100 yds (or farther if you don't mind picking a cloud to aim at).


13 posted on 10/10/2005 4:05:47 PM PDT by Wisconsin
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To: 45Auto
I've got two 45-70s I picked up in the 60s sometime or another. One Remington and a Springfield. Beautiful weapons. One is a trapdoor and the other a rolling block design. Still have some 405 grain rounds, but haven't shot them in decades.

Nam Vet

14 posted on 10/10/2005 4:10:37 PM PDT by Nam Vet ("I was present at the birth of a political jihad.")
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To: 45Auto

Oh man...
I've been thinking about a 45/70 carbine, and have wanted a TC forever.
Did the guy at the gun shop tell you to post this? :-)


15 posted on 10/10/2005 4:14:19 PM PDT by lrb111 (Minutemen - Doing jobs the White House won't do.)
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To: lrb111
No, but here's a G2 Contender 23" barrel in .45-70:


16 posted on 10/10/2005 4:28:25 PM PDT by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: 45Auto
A interesting article by Chuck Hawks

Buffalo Cartridges of the American Frontier

17 posted on 10/10/2005 4:31:32 PM PDT by HP8753 (My cat is an NTSB Standard,The Naval Observatory calls me for time corrections.)
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To: 45Auto
My cousin has one of those and I can feel the blast from several feet behind. I prefer my Ruger #1 and Uberti copy of the Win 1885. Am working up loads now.
Great reading contained herein.
thx,

mc
18 posted on 10/10/2005 4:33:37 PM PDT by mcshot (Boldly going nowhere with a smile and appreciation for life.)
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To: toddst
I too had a 45-70 made on a Mauser action. Mine was a Siamese Mauser. It works well because it was made for a rimmed cartridge to start with.

I had it rebarreled with a Shaw barrel. I tried to get by on the cheap by using the original stock. I think that was a mistake.

The rifle worked fine and was accurate but kicked like a mule. I think that metal buttplate combined with the relatively short stock was mainly responsible for the recoil.

Ended up trading it off.

19 posted on 10/10/2005 4:37:45 PM PDT by yarddog
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To: 45Auto

I shot a few deer using the 45-70.It's a great caliber to use when hunting in the woods.I only had one deer run more than a few yards after being hit with that bullet and it was a smaller deer.I think the bullet passed straight through the deer because the smaller deer didn't have the mass to offer enough resistance for the bullet.The bullet made the same size hole going in as it did coming out plus I didn't hit the vital organs.The deer still only made it two hundred yards which wasn't too bad.


20 posted on 10/10/2005 4:38:49 PM PDT by rdcorso (There Is No Such Thing As A Neutral Person During A War With Radical Islam.)
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To: 45Auto
Just when I thought nobody cared...

I own and shoot 2 - 40/65's 2-45/70's and a hand made C. Sharps 45/90 long ranger.

/grins :-)

21 posted on 10/10/2005 4:44:15 PM PDT by xcamel (No more RINOS - Not Now, Not Ever Again.)
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To: 45Auto

I have both a 1886 Winchester in .45-70 and a trap door Springfield. When I hunted, the Springfield was my favorite deer gun , unless I had to walk a long distance in which case I would go for a lighter BLR. I am so slow I never got off more than one aimed shot anyway so there was little point to a repeater.

It is a great cartridge, and still a good one for <100 yds (or farther if you don't mind picking a cloud to aim at).


22 posted on 10/10/2005 4:44:57 PM PDT by Wisconsin
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To: 45Auto

I loaded black powder in .45-70 cartridges for use in my Pedersoli Sharps replica buffalo rifle. The recoil, when fired, was more of a push than a brutal punishment. The boom of the black powder was impressive. I don't know how they used to put 70 grains in those cartridges. I could only get 65 grains in when loading them myself with a drop tube.


23 posted on 10/10/2005 4:55:54 PM PDT by NoControllingLegalAuthority
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To: Wisconsin

I've only fired two .45-70's: an 1886 Winchester (Browning replica, with a long, heavy barrel) and a Springfield trapdoor saddle-ring carbine. I fired the 1886 Winchester first, and it was pretty comfortable. Then I fired the trapdoor carbine, and I thought the darned thing was going to jump out of my hands.

I imagine lots of cavalry troopers had bruised shoulders...


24 posted on 10/10/2005 4:59:07 PM PDT by 04-Bravo
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To: 45Auto
At one point, I came very close to buying a T/C Contender from JD Jones at SSK... He's also the guy who gave me some loading information for some VERY HEAVY hard cast bullets for my .41 Mag, though I later just bought a Redhawk in .44 Mag - Why beat up a sweet S&W Model 57?

Anyway, I was seriously thinking about this Contender in either 45-70, .444 Marlin, or .375 JDJ. I was leaning towards to .375 JDJ, as it's been used to take every large game animal on earth, including elephant and cape buffalo. I thought it might be handy to have, just in case one of them pesky cape buffs turned up in my backyard (wife: "Why do you need that elephant gun?" Husband: "To scare away the wild elephants." Wife: "There aren't any elephants in the state!" Husband: "See! It works!") After firing a buddy's TC Contender in .444 Marlin, I decided that I liked my hand, wrist, elbow, and shoulder too much to use one of these cannons on a regular basis! Firing a .44 Mag 300 gr bullet at just shy of 1500fps from my Ruger is mild compared to that!

Mark

25 posted on 10/10/2005 5:00:25 PM PDT by MarkL (I didn't get to where I am today by worrying about what I'd feel like tomorrow!)
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To: PoorMuttly; elkfersupper; hiredhand; verity; TEXASPROUD

Mr R.T.Hare BTTT !


26 posted on 10/10/2005 5:03:18 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: HuntsvilleTxVeteran; Squantos

.45-70 at Two Miles: The Sandy Hook Tests of 1879

Bump


27 posted on 10/10/2005 5:12:18 PM PDT by PoorMuttly (A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun -T.Jefferson)
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To: MarkL
E. Arthur Brown sells the JP Brake for TC Encore-Contender Barrels . I have one on a 45-70 barrel and it brings down recoil to tolerable aka easy levels for even heavy Garrett Hammerhead loads....


28 posted on 10/10/2005 5:13:07 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: PoorMuttly

A few years back Ruger released the Number 1 in a stainless flavor in 45-70 with the grey green laminated stock. It is one of my favorite hunting rifles. I harvested three Elk , 2 feral hogs and a mulie with it since purchased. Very accurate little rig.....my favorite for filling the freezer each fall.

I have a Leupold 1.5-6X on it and installed a new grip cap from brownells on it that has a compartment. In that compartment I keep a NECG #100 peep sight in case the leupold fogs up or breaks etc .... Warne QD levers make it easy to remove the glass and the NECG # 100 just fits into the half moon on the ruger. Stays zeroed .

I use a neoprene stock sock with 9 spare rounds and a neoprene and web sling that makes it a really nice rig.....


29 posted on 10/10/2005 5:21:53 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: Squantos
Ahem.....: "East of the Santa Fe trail, west of the Llano Estacado and south of the Canadian River, lie the ruins of an ancient Spanish trading post, the name of which was long ago forgotten. Because of its only visible remains, during the nineteenth century the site was known as Adobe Walls. It also just happened to lie quite near the migration path of the Great Central Herd of buffalo; today we'd say it sits in the panhandle of North Texas, about 150 miles southwest of Dodge City, Kansas. There were two 'battles' at Adobe Walls, the first occurring on November 25th, 1864 with none other than Kit Carson in attendance, but it was the second which contained 'the stuff of legends'. After the decimation of the buffalo herd in Kansas, the hunters moved south and west to continue practicing their profession. In June of 1874, a group of enterprising businessmen had set up two stores, a blacksmithy, and a saloon near the ruins of the old trading post in an effort to rekindle the 'town' of Adobe Walls and make a dollar off the hunters. By late June there had been talk of imminent Indian problems and, in recent weeks, hunters had actually been killed. Some 28 or 29 persons were present at Adobe Walls, including James Hanrahan the saloon owner, a 20-year old Bat Masterson, Billy Dixon {of whose famous long-distance rifle shot, more below}, California Joe {according to a somewhat unreliable account of California Joe Milner's life, or he may have been at the first battle of Adobe Walls}, and one woman, the wife of cook William Olds. At two in the morning on June 27th, 1874, the ridgepole holding up the sod roof of the saloon broke with a loud crack. Everyone in the saloon and several other men from the 'town' immediately set to repair the damage. Thus most of the inhabitants were already wide awake and up and about when, at dawn, a combined force of Comanche, Cheyenne, and Kiowa warriors {estimated in excess of 700 strong and led by Comanche Chief Quanah Parker, son of a captured white woman, Cynthia Ann Parker} swept across the plains, intent on erasing the populace of Adobe Walls. The initial attack almost carried the day; the Indians were in close enough to pound on the doors and windows of the buildings with their rifle butts. The fight was in such close quarters the hunters' long range rifles were useless. They were fighting with pistols and Henry and Winchester lever-action rifles in .44 rimfire. After the initial attack was repulsed, the hunters were able to keep the Indians at bay with their Sharps rifles. A search following the initial battle turned up the bodies of 15 warriors killed so close to the buildings that their bodies could not be retrieved by their fellows. The Indians rode out of range and camped in the distance while deciding how to handle the situation, effectively laying siege to Adobe Walls. The hunters suffered four fatalities: two brothers asleep in a wagon failed to survive the initial onslaught, Billy Tyler was shot through the lungs as he paused in the doorway of a building to take a shot, and Mrs. Bill Olds accidentally shot her husband in the head as she handed a reloaded rifle up to him {the bullet entering under his chin and exiting out the top of his head}. The second day after the initial attack, fifteen warriors rode out on a bluff nearly a mile away to survey the situation. Some reports indicate they were taunting the Adobe Walls defenders but, at the distance involved, it seems unlikely. At the behest of one of the hunters, Billy Dixon, already renowned as a crack shot, took aim with a 'Big Fifty' Sharps {it was either a .50&endash;70 or &endash;90, probably the latter} he'd borrowed from Hanrahan, and cleanly dropped a warrior from atop his horse. This apparently so discouraged the Indians they decamped and gave up the fight. Two weeks later a team of US Army surveyors, under the command of Nelson A. Miles, measured the distance of the shot: 1,538 yards, or nine-tenths of a mile. For the rest of his life, Billy Dixon never claimed the shot was anything other than a lucky one; his memoirs do not devote even a full paragraph to 'the shot'. Forensic archeologists have discovered several Richards' Colt conversions, some Smith & Wesson Americans, and at least one Colt .45 {then new on the frontier} pistol, along with numerous rifles {in calibers .50&endash;70, .50&endash;90, .44&endash;77, .44 Henry Flat, and at least one .45&endash;70, also very new} were in use at Adobe Walls. Billy Dixon quit buffalo hunting and, the following August, became an army scout. In September, just three months after Adobe Walls, an army dispatch detail consisting of Billy Dixon, another scout {Amos Chapman}, and four troopers from the 6th Cavalry were surrounded and besieged by a large combined band of Kiowas and Comanches. They holed up in a buffalo wallow and, with accurate rifle fire, held off the Indians for an entire day. An extremely cold rainstorm that night discouraged the Indians, and they broke off the fight; every man in the detail was wounded and one trooper killed. For this action Billy Dixon, along with the other survivors of 'The Buffalo Wallow Fight', were awarded the Congressional Medal of Honor. In 1893 Billy Dixon left the army, filing homestead papers on the Adobe Walls site. He built a home and died there, aged 63, on March 9th, 1913."
30 posted on 10/10/2005 5:24:12 PM PDT by PoorMuttly (A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun -T.Jefferson)
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To: PoorMuttly

http://www.garrettcartridges.com/products.asp


31 posted on 10/10/2005 5:24:58 PM PDT by PoorMuttly (A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun -T.Jefferson)
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To: 8mmMauser

*PING*


32 posted on 10/10/2005 5:29:13 PM PDT by PoorMuttly (A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun -T.Jefferson)
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To: 8mmMauser

*PING*


33 posted on 10/10/2005 5:29:34 PM PDT by PoorMuttly (A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun -T.Jefferson)
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To: PoorMuttly

LOL I was there yesterday afternoon....It's right off the gate of the turkeytrack ranch up NE of Stinnett Texas....

I have used my laser rangefinder to check the distance of all the ridges that surround the site of the trading post . The entry is from the top of a small box canyon that is open to the south towards the Canadian river. The east and west ridges are easy 1500 yards yet the north ridge is a good 2000 plus yards.....

The road in is a switch back long trail down the north ridge to a site that is more a memorial to Quanah Parker types than the Billy Dixons.......

I have sat and read all the books on the event and the best is by a guy in Canyon Texas at the Plains Museam there....


34 posted on 10/10/2005 5:32:37 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: HP8753

I like this part: "Anyone hunting game that averages ten times his own weight and solves problems by running over them had better carry a powerful rifle!"

3000 lbs. is large even by cheesemoose standards.


35 posted on 10/10/2005 5:34:11 PM PDT by PoorMuttly (A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun -T.Jefferson)
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To: PoorMuttly
This is looking SW at the site towards the ridge / edge of the canyon wall. Too yer left is the Canadian and to the right and behind is the box canyons north and east walls. The monuments mark the structures from where the shots were fired.....


36 posted on 10/10/2005 5:37:02 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: Candor7

The Siameese Mausers! Made in JAPAN for Thailand, sold to the US and converted to 45/70.


37 posted on 10/10/2005 5:38:13 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (When someone burns a cross on your lawn, the best firehose is an AK-47.)
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To: Candor7
The Gibbs Rifle Company made up some Enfields chambered in .45-70:


38 posted on 10/10/2005 5:39:38 PM PDT by 45Auto (Big holes are (almost) always better.)
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To: 45Auto
Firing the 510-grain bullets from a 14” Thompson/Center Contender is an experience not soon for gotten.

I nominate this line for understatement of the week...

39 posted on 10/10/2005 5:41:18 PM PDT by null and void (Bringing Faith to the Doubtful, and Doubt to the Faithful)
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To: 45Auto

The 45/70 is one of my favorite rounds. I have a Sharps and a Magnum Research BFR chambered for it. A year or so ago I got a Bowen Classic Arms Redhawk chambered in .475 Linebaugh. I cut down 45/70 brass to handload for it. All three will kick @$$.


40 posted on 10/10/2005 5:44:10 PM PDT by P8riot (When they come for your guns, give them the bullets first.)
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To: PoorMuttly
This 1957 photo shows the view that the indians would have had as it's east of the edge of the canyon ridge looking down into the bowl. The right third of the pic , halfway down the picture in the valley is where the trading post was....the monument in the color pic above. The target of Billy Dixon was alledgedly on horseback on that peak in the forefront of the black and white pic.


41 posted on 10/10/2005 5:45:25 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: 45Auto; HairOfTheDog; Ramius; Sam Cree; g'nad

Great post, shot a trapdoor in years gone by, great rifle.
Haven't tried the one handed versions, yet.


42 posted on 10/10/2005 5:54:07 PM PDT by osagebowman ((Help us support our troops! - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/))
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To: PoorMuttly

3000 lbs would be a large cheesemoose.


43 posted on 10/10/2005 5:54:14 PM PDT by HP8753 (My cat is an NTSB Standard,The Naval Observatory calls me for time corrections.)
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To: HP8753

It would, don't you think, even considering.


44 posted on 10/10/2005 5:57:03 PM PDT by PoorMuttly (A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun -T.Jefferson)
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To: osagebowman

Very cool, Mr. Osage. You're getting out of my range of (limited) knowledge here, but those are cool rifles. I've heard of them, but not seen a real one.

I like old guns, though.


45 posted on 10/10/2005 6:08:44 PM PDT by Sam Cree (absolute reality)
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To: PoorMuttly

Thanks for the ping. I think my poor Sharps cavalry carbine wouldn't have done the trick that day. I would have felt safe with it within fifty to a hundred feet, maybe with practice... Nice and pristine, matched parts, wouldn't shoot it, just keep it.

Wow, what a shot!

Now I gotta think about all this a bit. Hmmm, got a nice Enfield to think about, too.

8mm


46 posted on 10/10/2005 6:14:18 PM PDT by 8mmMauser (Jesu ufam tobie..Jesus I trust in Thee)
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To: PoorMuttly

ADOBE WALLS, TEXAS. Adobe Walls was the name given several trading posts and later a ranching community located seventeen miles northeast of Stinnett and just north of the Canadian River in what is now northeastern Hutchinson County. The first trading post in the area seems to have been established in early 1843 by representatives of the trading firm of Bent, St. Vrain and Company, which hoped to trade with the Comanches and Kiowas. These Indians avoided Bent's Fort, the company's main headquarters on the upper Arkansas River near La Junta, Colorado, because enemies, the Cheyennes and Arapahoes, lived in the area. The new satellite post was situated on a stream that became known as Bent's (now Bent) Creek. Company traders worked originally from tepees and later from log structures. Probably no real fort was built on the site before 1846. Sometime after September 1845 William Bent and Ceran St. Vrain, chief partners in the firm, arrived with Mexican adobe makers to replace the log establishment with Fort Adobe, a structure eighty feet square, with nine-foot walls and only one entrance.

Occupation of Fort Adobe was sporadic, and by 1848 Indian hostility had resulted in its closure. That fall a momentary peace was effected, and Bent sought to reopen the post by sending Christopher (Kit) Carson,qv Lucien Maxwell, and five other employees to the Canadian. Resistance from the Jicarilla Apaches, however, forced Carson's group to cache the trade goods and buffalo robes they had acquired and return to Bent's Fort. Soon after, several Comanches persuaded Bent to make another try at resuming trade at Fort Adobe. A thirteen-man party, led by R. W. (Dick) Wootton, encountered restive Comanches at the fort and finally conducted trade through a window cut in the wall. In the spring of 1849, in a last concerted effort to revive the post, Bent accompanied several ox-drawn wagons to the Canadian. After part of his stock was killed by Indians, he blew up the fort's interior with gunpowder and abandoned the Panhandleqv trade to the Comancheros.qv

The adobe ruins thus became a familiar landmark to both Indians and Comancheros and to any white man who dared to venture into the heart of Comanchería. In November 1864 Carson, now a colonel of volunteers, used the walls of Fort Adobe to rest his 300 men and their horses after sacking a Kiowa village during a campaign against the tribes of the southern Plains. The group withstood several Indian attacks at the fort before withdrawing (see ADOBE WALLS, FIRST BATTLE OF).

In March 1874 merchants from Dodge City, Kansas, following the buffaloqv hunters south into the Texas Panhandle, established a large complex, called the Myers and Leonard Store, about a mile north of the Fort Adobe ruins. This business, which included a corral and restaurant, was joined in April 1874 by a second store operated by Charles Rathqv and Company. Shortly afterward James N. Hanrahan and Rath opened a saloon, and Tom O'Keefe started a blacksmith shop. By the end of spring, 200 to 300 buffalo hunters roamed the area, and trade at Adobe Walls boomed. After an Indian uprising called the second battle of Adobe Wallsqv (June 1874) both merchants and hunters abandoned the site.

http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/AA/hra10.html


47 posted on 10/10/2005 6:32:55 PM PDT by Ninian Dryhope
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To: 45Auto

oooooh, gunporn


48 posted on 10/10/2005 7:20:07 PM PDT by lrb111 (Minutemen - Doing jobs the White House won't do.)
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To: 8mmMauser

I'm thinkin' the same thing.


49 posted on 10/10/2005 7:23:07 PM PDT by PoorMuttly (A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun -T.Jefferson)
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To: 45Auto

.45 BTTT


50 posted on 10/10/2005 7:27:00 PM PDT by Cold Heart
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