Skip to comments.Dinosaur-Bird Flap Ruffles Feathers
Posted on 10/11/2005 4:07:11 AM PDT by mlc9852
MONDAY, Oct. 10 (HealthDay News) -- Head to the American Museum of Natural History's Web site, and you'll see the major draw this fall is a splashy exhibit on dinosaurs.
And not just any dinosaurs, but two-legged carnivorous, feathered "theropods" like the 30-inch-tall Bambiraptor -- somewhat less cuddly than its namesake.
The heyday of the theropods, which included scaly terrors like T. rex and velociraptor, stretched from the late Triassic (220 million years ago) to the late Cretaceous (65 million years ago) periods.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...
Then feel free to support your claim, as I suggested, by citing any contemporaneous or historical document of any sort which backs up your odd claims about what "scientists" allegedly said about Polio.
It's at least vaguely within the realm of possibility that some moron, somewhere -- perhaps one of your neighbors -- passed along an old wives tale about "polio from the ground" when you were a kid. But you didn't present "polio from the ground" as something you had just heard when you were young, you used it as an alleged example of "scientists" arriving at some absurd conclusion and disseminating it to the public. You were clearly trying to claim that there wasn't just one crackpot somewhere which held such an odd belief, you were claiming that this was a relatively widespread notion among the scientific community, and that they were obviously fools for believing such a stupid thing. If your claim is true, it shouldn't be hard to find records of such a position in journals, or public health advice printed in newspapers, or published announcements to that effect, etc. Go for it.
Lacking that, and given that several of us on this thread are quite familiar with the history of the epidemiology of Polio during this century and yet have not heard of such a notion being conventional wisdom at any time, we're going to have to call BS on your claim.
If you *do* manage to document it, I'll be quite happy to apologize for my skepticism and you can rub my nose in it all you like. That should be sufficient motiviation for you to spend a bit of time hunting for support for your assertion. But remember, showing the existence of an old wives tale to that effect isn't sufficient, you'll have to show that "scientists" were in the habit of giving such advice, since that *was* your original claim.
Your comment about museum personel is absurd.
Would you like to bet money on that? Say, twenty bucks?
Where is your scientific method in this? You've made an asumption and backed it up with your opinion.
I have more than that.
You claim to know all there is to know about all in the country.
No, I don't claim that at all. Stop make false charges against me. I don't *need* to "know all there is to know about all in the country" in order to know that what Newsgatherer claimed he heard museum guides say is entirely implausible on too many points to be even remotely possible. It has the form of the usual "creationist just so" story, made up from nothing but his own false preconceptions about how science "actually" works and how science exhibits "must" be presented. It has all the hallmarks of creationist fantasies about such presentations, and none of the characteristics of real-life museum exhibits or science presentations.
To those of us who *are* intimately acquainted with museums and the science behind the dating of fossils and other artifacts, his account is quite clearly simply made up -- and made up very poorly, due to his ignorance and misconceptions.
It's as clear as the obverse case would be if I were to claim that I had once visited a prominent Catholic church where the priest spoke from the pulpit in blue jeans and had made statements "admitting" that God was a fraud and that the story of King David on the ark with the animals wasn't workable, all while he spread Cheez Whiz on the eucharist wafers...
Anyone who had any *real* experience with Catholic churches and their practices would instantly recognize this as a fabricated piece of nonsense, too flawed on too many levels to even remotely be something that actually happened. And so it is with those of us who actually are quite familiar with museums, fossils, geology, and dating methods. Newsgatherer just made it up. He's lying. His story has far too many holes, of far too preposterous a nature, to be something that actually happened to him, not just once but several times, as he claims.
And don't "DUH" me.
This coming from the guy whose very first words on this thread were, "Give it up Ichneumon, you're sounding like an idiot"?
I'll make you a deal -- stop behaving like, well, yourself, and I'll stop DUHing you.
Your arrogance is amazing.
Good thing *you* haven't been arrogant yourself on this thread. Oh, wait...
Are you a Democrat?
Not at all. I am, however, very knowledgeable on a number of topics, and I don't take too kindly to those who aren't when they just make stuff up or speak complete nonsense in a belligerent manner. As the old saying goes, "better to remain quiet and be thought a fool than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Actually, I have no problem at all with people who are not very well versed on a subject. We're all neophytes on various topics. What I *do* take exception to is the people who are extremely unfamiliar with a topic, then use their delusions of competence to lecture, berate, "correct", and ridicule those people who do know the field. You know, like the way creationists who couldn't tell a retrovirus from a retroposon constantly attack the entire field and all professional practitioners of evolutionary biology, along with several other fields of science.
I would put Jessica Alba from Sin City up against me, but the restraining order prohibits it.
But can you calculate the airspeed of a European Swallow carrying a coconut?
Assuming an adult swallow and a mature coconut, of course.....
This memory is correct. Public swimming pools were closed and people were indeed fearful. I don't believe there has ever been a comparable state of fear in this country, not even after 911.
What you lied about was the state of science. I know exactly what scientists were saying because my father was in charge of relaying the scientific position to the people of the state most affected by the polio epidemic.
Science knew what the disease was and how it spread. What they didn't know, prior to Salk, was how to protect children except by self-quarantine.
Polio was also the first epidemic disease of the rich. Most previous epidemics were weighted against the poor. You might remember a wealthy future president who was paralyzed by polio. There are some theories that suggest exactly the opposite of what you have claimed. They claim that poor hygiene (dirt) toughens up a child's immune system and is, in the long run, useful. It was noted that India had no paralytic polio.
Another little known nugget is that the Salk vaccine was a public health failure. Every single person had to have a shot, and everyone had to have a booster shot every year. I personally had four.
This seemed to protect those who got the shots, but it didn't stop the epidemic. The epidemic wasn't stopped until the live vaccine was used, and it worked because, like the disease, it spread itself.
May I suggest that you go back to school and stop by the department that teaches logical thinking and ask them what "Reductio ad absurdam" means? I rarely read these stupid evolution threads, and even more seldom post on them, but I couldn't resist an attempt at humor. Sorry that your belief system is so weak that you can't take a little jab.
Why do evolution proponents immediately get hysterical, go on the attack, and assume that anyone who doesn't believe the official party line is an uneducated dunce? Has science become that Stalinist?
Let me propose a test for you: you create a protocol whereby one species turns into another species - I'm not talking about a minor variation like green birds having blue offspring or slightly different beaks, I'm talking a completely new species - like a reptile into a bird. Then let's take that protocol to several independent labs and have them repeat the experiment under controlled conditions. If your protocol works, I'll start worshipping your god. If it doesn't work, YOU go back to school and learn the difference between "philosophy" and true "science".
It took God a grand total of six 24 hour days to create everything, and everything is pretty cool, but, think about this.
Some 1,973 years ago Jesus said: Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in Me.
In My Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto Myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:1-3 ACP/KJV)
6 days to make earth, all the heavens, and everything on and in them and it is a pretty cool place.
BUT, Just for a minute try to imagine what our paradise, the mansion that Jesus is now building for us must be like, for He has been working on it for some 1,973 years so far.
I feel bad for the evolutionist, I feel bad for anyone that thinks this earth is worth being called home.
A man much wiser than me said: "For those of us who are truly Born Again Washed in the Blood of the Lamb Christians, this time on earth is the closest we ever come to hell, but for those who are unsaved, this time on earth is their heaven."
Nice distraction with the "worshiping your god" routine. I love theatrical history -- I think this particular joke dates from about 1859.
But before anyone wastes any time trying your proposal, why not show us somewhere in the scientific literature where this is predicted by the Theory of Evolution?
If this sort of thing were demonstrated to have happened, it would disprove the Theory of Evolution.
I have an alternate proposal: How about learning something about the theory you're rejecting before you post again?< /holding breath >
And the Keebler Elves! Cough those up, Mr. Guy! I want the Keebler Elves, singing and dancing the Charleston, and baking those little cookies everyone loves! And I want them to do it all on the back of a unicorn! You produce all that, fella, and THEN maybe I'll think about signing up for your theory!
Just a thought:
Influenza (Italian for influence) was originally thought to be from "bad air"...maybe this is a conflation of ideas. Not by scientists, of course, but possibly, by those who "heard it from" some local "authority" or the other.
As for the museum guide quotes, I find them totally irrelevant to anything.
1.it happened more or less as stated....guide needs more training in not getting enmeshed in disruptive creationist claptrap;
2. it did not happen as stated....we need more practice in early troll alerts.
I wonder about the certainty of the quote: "16.7 -100 million". What seems more likely would be that the 16.7 was 67. Assuming, of course that there was such a statement made at all.
I also wonder about training kids to go to a museum and make fun of the volunteer or low paid guides. What other purpose could there be since they were not going to believe anything they were told?
Sweetie, that article is about archaeoraptor, not archaeopeteryx. Two different critters.
It is possible that PC's mom heard "dirt" and later her memory translated it to "ground." My first wife came from a backwoods bayou family, and they were always doing things like this.
And this is exactly why we don't take creationists seriosuly -- because clearly you don't know what a species is. A different beak shape could be a trivial thing -- a coding allele in a population -- or it could mark the divider between two discrete non-inter-breeding populations, which, in that case, would be "two completely different species." If you had been awake during your middle school biology class, you'd understand that evolution from reptiles to birds represents class evolution, not simply a new species.
If your protocol works, I'll start worshipping your god.
My God is the God of Abraham, and I don't want you worshipping Him, thank you very much. I'm sure there are other more evangelical religions that would be more welcoming of fools like yourself.
A joke or a jab from a position of knowledge would be readily acceptable. The same from a position of ignorance deserves all the ridicule it might garner.
I have asked this of others on these threads, but I have never received an answer.
I do archaeology in the western US. I have tested many sites, with good dating (not just Carbon-14 but several other methods). A number of these sites span the 3,000-5,000 year range, but have no evidence of a flood. The soil layers are intact and show a continuous record of human presence, along with faunal remains and lots of other evidence across the 3,000-5,000 year span. In otherwords, no flood!
Where do you think I am going wrong? (Please be specific.)
One of my best friends in college -- the best man at my wedding -- died about a decade ago of post-polio syndrome.
So I've been told. That's what I get for trying to concentrate whilst having two teens try to out talk each other at me while I'm trying to think.
A bit distracting, I'm sure.