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Dinosaur-Bird Flap Ruffles Feathers
Yahoo!News ^ | October 10, 2005 | E.J. Mundell

Posted on 10/11/2005 4:07:11 AM PDT by mlc9852

MONDAY, Oct. 10 (HealthDay News) -- Head to the American Museum of Natural History's Web site, and you'll see the major draw this fall is a splashy exhibit on dinosaurs.

And not just any dinosaurs, but two-legged carnivorous, feathered "theropods" like the 30-inch-tall Bambiraptor -- somewhat less cuddly than its namesake.

The heyday of the theropods, which included scaly terrors like T. rex and velociraptor, stretched from the late Triassic (220 million years ago) to the late Cretaceous (65 million years ago) periods.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.yahoo.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society
KEYWORDS: bambiraptor; cretaceous; dinosaur; dinosaurs; godsgravesglyphs; hitchcock; paleontology; science; theropods; triassic; tyrannasaurusrex; velociraptor
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To: megatherium
Newsgatherer, your Christian faith reminds me of Alice in Wonderland ...

Ah and your evolutionary faith reminds me of the princess who kissed the frog and the frog became a prince. Yu guys have just changed the method, she kissed the frog and he became a prince, you guys replaced the kiss with millions and millions of years, and the frog became a prince.

51 posted on 10/11/2005 6:43:41 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: Oztrich Boy
You believe everything came from nothing and that nothing somehow became a spinning dot which exploded and became everything etc, etc, etc. And you think I care what you think or believe? You have got to be joking.

By the way, I love the way you guys say, with a straight face and an ever so condescending tone,: "Billions and Billions of years ago, in a galaxy far, far away, there was nothing and this nothing..."

52 posted on 10/11/2005 6:48:23 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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The CrevoSci Archive
Just one of the many services of Darwin Central
"The Conspiracy that Cares"

CrevoSci threads for the past week:

  1. 2005-10-11 Dinosaur-Bird Flap Ruffles Feathers
  2. 2005-10-10 Backward, Christian Soldiers! (Intel-Design supporters equivalent to 'Holocaust Deniers')
  3. 2005-10-10 Creationism concerns shadow Florida's new top educator
  4. 2005-10-10 Did feathered dinosaurs exist?
  5. 2005-10-10 EUGENICS - From Darwinism to Population Control
  6. 2005-10-10 Intelligent design's big ambitions - Advocates want much more than textbooks.
  7. 2005-10-10 Killer Findings: Scientists Piece Together 1918-Flu Virus
  8. 2005-10-10 Latest Study: Scientists Say No Evidence Exists
  9. 2005-10-09 Evolution of faith
  10. 2005-10-09 Gov. Bush [Florida] oddly evasive on evolution
  11. 2005-10-09 Putting Relativity To The Test, NASA's Gravity Probe B To Reveale If Einstein Was Right
  12. 2005-10-08 Famed author takes on Kansas: Rushdie bemoans role of religion in public life
  13. 2005-10-07 Descent of Man in Dover (Why acceptance of ID not inevitable.)
  14. 2005-10-07 Discovery Institute's “Wedge Document” How Darwinist Paranoia Fueled an Urban Legend
  15. 2005-10-07 Dover, PA Evolution Trial [daily thread for 07 Oct]
  16. 2005-10-07 Evolution and intelligent design Life is a cup of tea
  17. 2005-10-07 Let 'intelligent design' and science rumble
  18. 2005-10-07 The Las Cruces Fossil Human Footprints
  19. 2005-10-07 The Map that Changed the World [in 1815]
  20. 2005-10-07 University of Idaho Bans All Alternatives to Evolution
  21. 2005-10-07 Why Intelligent Design Is Going to Win
  22. 2005-10-06 Faith, Science and the Persecution of Richard Sternberg
  23. 2005-10-06 Scientist defends Big Bang and God
  24. 2005-10-06 Seeing Creation and Evolution in Grand Canyon (quote below is the most significant item)
  25. 2005-10-06 The Mouth of the South Side (Carl Everett on Gays, Evolution, Bush and Kanye West)
  26. 2005-10-06 U of I president:teach only evolution in {University}science classes (Connection to PA court fight)
  27. 2005-10-06 Witness: 'Design' Replaced 'Creation'
  28. 2005-10-06 Witness: Movement's roots in creationism (Dover trial 10/6/05)
  29. 2005-10-05 Professor, teachers to testify in intelligent-design trial [Dover, PA, 05 Oct]
  30. 2005-10-05 Supernova Storm Wiped Out Mammoths?
  31. 2005-10-05 The Nobel Prize in Chemistry 2005 goes to Yves Chauvin, Robert H. Grubbs and Richard R. Schrock

CrevoSci Warrior Freepdays for the month of October:
 

2003-10-09 antiRepublicrat
2004-10-10 Antonello
1998-10-18 AZLiberty
1999-10-14 blam
2000-10-19 cogitator
2001-10-21 Coyoteman
2004-10-26 curiosity
1998-10-29 Dataman
2000-10-29 dila813
2005-10-07 Dinobot
2001-10-14 dread78645
1998-10-03 Elsie
1998-10-17 f.Christian
2002-10-08 FairOpinion
2001-10-26 Genesis defender
2000-10-09 Gil4
2000-10-08 guitarist
2004-10-10 joeclarke
1998-10-03 js1138
2001-10-24 k2blader
2000-10-08 LibWhacker
2002-10-25 m1-lightning
2001-10-10 Michael_Michaelangelo
2001-10-09 Mother Abigail
2004-10-25 MRMEAN
2004-10-03 Nicholas Conradin
1999-10-28 PatrickHenry
1998-10-01 Physicist
1998-10-25 plain talk
1998-10-12 Restorer
2005-10-04 ret_medic
2001-10-23 RightWingNilla
2004-10-09 snarks_when_bored
1998-10-04 Southack
2002-10-22 sumocide
2004-10-21 WildHorseCrash
2001-10-23 yankeedame
2002-10-20 Z in Oregon

In Memoriam
Fallen CrevoSci Warriors:


ALS
Area Freeper
Aric2000
Askel5
bluepistolero
churchillbuff
ConservababeJen
DittoJed2
dob
Ed Current
f.Christian
followerofchrist
general_re
goodseedhomeschool
gopwinsin04
gore3000
Jedigirl
JesseShurun
Kevin Curry
kharaku
Le-Roy
Marathon
medved
metacognative
Modernman
NoKinToMonkeys
Ogmios
peg the prophet
Phaedrus
Phoroneus
pickemuphere
ret_medic
RickyJ
SeaLion
Selkie
Shubi
Tomax
tpaine
WaveThatFlag
xm177e2


Bring back Modernman and SeaLion!

53 posted on 10/11/2005 6:50:45 AM PDT by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: From many - one.

self ping


54 posted on 10/11/2005 6:51:50 AM PDT by From many - one.
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To: newsgatherer

"How did we get here?"

Not sure, but many of us are not content with "God did it, it's a miracle" as the answer to that question.

"Why are you here?"

Good question. I tend to believe there is no real point.

"What happens to you after you die?"

I'd put my money on "nothing exciting".

"What do you use for the basis of law?"

Property rights.

"Whose laws do you follow?"

The ones agreed upon by the society in which I live.

"Are there any absolutes?"

Only one I can think of, that any absolute can change if the evidence changes, a great catch 22.


55 posted on 10/11/2005 6:52:14 AM PDT by Join Or Die
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To: evilrightwingconspirator
If you can give me a complete and "finished" (meaning not missing any "missing links")fossil record, starting with the big bang, then I'll start to take you seriously.

Far be it for me to interrupt, but I thought you mind find this quote interesting.

I fully agree with your comments about the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would have certainly included them....” Dr. Colin Paterson, British Museum of Natural History

56 posted on 10/11/2005 6:55:13 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: Ichneumon

Another command performance! My hat's off to you sir.


57 posted on 10/11/2005 6:59:48 AM PDT by jayef
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To: Join Or Die
I thank you, you are the first 'evolutionist' who has ever answered those quesitons.

And while I am in total disagreement with yur answers, I hnestly do appreciate your taking the time to answer them.

Jake

58 posted on 10/11/2005 7:00:50 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: megatherium

Thank you for this excellent post. It's a shame that it is dismissed out of hand by those who need to read it the most.


59 posted on 10/11/2005 7:03:35 AM PDT by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: newsgatherer; evilrightwingconspirator
I fully agree with your comments about the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would have certainly included them....” Dr. Colin Paterson, British Museum of Natural History

Yawn. Another dishonestly out-of-context quote from an anti-evolution creationist. Plus, the sky is blue.

See: Patterson Misquoted: A Tale of Two 'Cites'

Do you guys *practice* at being dishonest?

Here's a full quote from Patterson which clearly demonstrates that you're misrepresenting his actual position concerning the existence of transitional fossils:

"In several animal and plant groups, enough fossils are known to bridge the wide gaps between existing types. In mammals, for example, the gap between horses, asses and zebras (genus Equus) and their closest living relatives, the rhinoceroses and tapirs, is filled by an extensive series of fossils extending back sixty-million years to a small animal, Hyracotherium, which can only be distinguished from the rhinoceros-tapir group by one or two horse-like details of the skull. There are many other examples of fossil 'missing links', such as Archaeopteryx, the Jurassic bird which links birds with dinosaurs (Fig. 45), and Ichthyostega, the late Devonian amphibian which links land vertebrates and the extinct choanate (having internal nostrils) fishes. . ."
-- Dr. Colin Patterson in his book "Evolution" (1978, Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd.).

60 posted on 10/11/2005 7:04:31 AM PDT by Ichneumon (Certified pedantic coxcomb)
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To: tamalejoe

Well, there are always those feral chickens...


61 posted on 10/11/2005 7:04:34 AM PDT by Junior (From now on, I'll stick to science, and leave the hunting alien mutants to the experts!)
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To: js1138

For the sake of SO MANY in this world, I hope you're right!


62 posted on 10/11/2005 7:05:47 AM PDT by jayef
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To: Ichneumon
Give it up Ichneumon, you're sounding like an idiot. You probably still believe the scientists who told my mom to keep the kids inside because polio comes out of the ground and if they don't go outside, they won't get it. Don't know how old you are, but I'm 55 and that's what the "scientists" told in my youth. Oh yes, and be sure and put heat on sprains, oh no, now it's cold, what will it be next?

Science is guesswork, at best, when it comes to trying to prove evolution. Why is it guesswork...because they just keep floating new theories hoping that one will stick in the minds of men. Guesswork of men? Word of God? No Brainer.

63 posted on 10/11/2005 7:06:13 AM PDT by Pure Country
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To: Pure Country
Give it up Ichneumon, you're sounding like an idiot.

Wow, what a masterful rebuttal. I'm awed by your intellect and your mastery of the evidence you have marshalled to support your position.

You probably still believe the scientists who told my mom to keep the kids inside because polio comes out of the ground and if they don't go outside, they won't get it.

You probably believe that was an intelligent refutation of what I've actually written.

Science is guesswork, at best, when it comes to trying to prove evolution.

Wrong, it's based on overwhelmingly massive amounts of evidence, research, and independently cross-confirming validating tests. But hey, enjoy your fantasies.

Why is it guesswork...because they just keep floating new theories hoping that one will stick in the minds of men.

Wrong again. But hey, just for fun, let's give you an opportunity to show off your "legend in your own mind" knowledge of evolutionary science, shall we? Name two things that Darwin wrote in "Origin of Species" which have subsequently had to be revised with a "new theory". Go for it. I can't think of *any*, personally, but you seem to have hallucinated a few, so let us know what they are.

(Be careful, this is a trap. I'm telling that in advance, knowing that you'll *still* fall right into it if you attempt to respond.)

Guesswork of men? Word of God? No Brainer.


64 posted on 10/11/2005 7:17:07 AM PDT by Ichneumon (Certified pedantic coxcomb)
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To: newsgatherer
You wrote:
Far be it for me to interrupt, but I thought you mind find this quote interesting.

Then you gave this citation:
I fully agree with your comments about the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would have certainly included them....” Dr. Colin Paterson, British Museum of Natural History

Quote-mining alert!

This is yet another quote ripped out of context and used to bolster an argument 180 degrees from the author's intent.

65 posted on 10/11/2005 7:20:30 AM PDT by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: Ichneumon
Your shtick gets old and boring pretty fast.

We seem to be experiencing a recrudescence of ALS syndrome.

66 posted on 10/11/2005 7:22:33 AM PDT by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Pure Country

I always get a laugh out of you guys. Ichneumon's an idiot, you say? Because he's a scientist and well . . . scientists have been wrong in the past. That's hilarious.


67 posted on 10/11/2005 7:23:19 AM PDT by jayef
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To: evilrightwingconspirator
Besides, having a wing doesn't mean that a bird can fly. Think of the ostrich, dodo bird, penguin...

Penguins fly. They just do it in a denser fluid than air.

68 posted on 10/11/2005 7:25:56 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Paging Nehemiah Scudder:the Crazy Years are peaking. America is ready for you.)
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To: newsgatherer

No problem, we'll most likely never agree or convince each other "our" way is the right way, but we have to live in the same world.

My only real concern in the matter is that if I have kids I want to make sure they are introduced to science and faith as seperate matters and leave it up to them how to balance the two in their lives.

I for one as an agnostic don't really see the major conflict between the two, but I guess science is a threat to some people's religious views, which I see more as a problem with the religion than the science.


69 posted on 10/11/2005 7:31:19 AM PDT by Join Or Die
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To: newsgatherer
And you think I care what you think or believe?

You tell stories of your adventures in the halls of the evolutionists and don't care whether those stories sound credible? That is not logical.

70 posted on 10/11/2005 7:33:30 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Paging Nehemiah Scudder:the Crazy Years are peaking. America is ready for you.)
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To: Ichneumon
Your performance here may have produced yet another specimen for the THIS IS YOUR BRAIN ON CREATIONISM section of The List-O-Links:

NEW post 48 by newsgatherer on 11 Oct 2005. When you say millions and millions of years, you are calling God a liar!

71 posted on 10/11/2005 7:38:49 AM PDT by PatrickHenry ( I won't respond to a troll, crackpot, retard, or incurable ignoramus.)
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To: Ichneumon; megatherium
As someone with a degree in Anthropology, but also now tries to follow Christ in my own faulty way, I stand by the both of you. Its as if creationists do not ever hear the words "scientific method" which was, by the way, begun by those of the most serious spirtiual communities, monasteries and monks. The creationists love to use the Bible for the wrong purposes.

best
Alkhin

72 posted on 10/11/2005 7:43:56 AM PDT by Alkhin (Let all the earth keep silence.)
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To: newsgatherer
Are you willing to say the same thing to the Jews, who were the first to write the book of Genesis? Are you willing to sit and listen to what THEY have to say about the literal interpretation of Genesis? Are you willing to accept that Jews, those first people in communion with God, have much more intrinsic and deeper meaning in the book of Genesis? I dare you to ask them what they have to say about the foundations of their cosmology, the Kabbalah. And no, Madonna has nothing at all to do with that. She is a pretentious fool being led by New Agers who use the rich thought of the Kabbalah for commercial purposes.

Are you willing to ask these questions AND hear the answers? Or are you so convinced of your own superiority? God gaves us brains to THINK as well as hearts and souls to feel. From your comments, I dont think you are using the tool God gave you, and that alone is a sin.

73 posted on 10/11/2005 7:52:19 AM PDT by Alkhin (Let all the earth keep silence.)
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To: Ichneumon

Ichneumon says;
Is there any particular reason you're blatantly lying? You're obviously making things up that never happened. No museum guide anywhere would every be so stupid as to say that the dinosaurs died out "between 16.7 and 100 million years ago". Even most gradeschool kids know that the dinosaurs died out 65 million years ago, at the end of the Cretaceous period. Please don't post your fantasies as if they were actual anecdotes. Bearing false witness is a sin."

This is why evolutionists cannot be trusted. He claims that "no museum guide anywhere would be so stupid..." So he has surveyed every museum guide? That kind of generalization is what evolution is all about. They show us a timeline of 18 Billion years and tell us to believe it without scientific witnessing, experimentation or fact - pretending to be knowledgeable about every minute of those 18 Billion years. What a racket! Who needs to teach IDs when there are so many holes in evilution.


74 posted on 10/11/2005 8:06:10 AM PDT by joeclarke (Wrong Place, But Right Time)
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To: Ichneumon
you are quoting from his book I am qouting from a letter he wrote in responce to a letter he recieved asking where the missiong links were in his book.
75 posted on 10/11/2005 8:06:24 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: Alkhin
Are you willing to say the same thing to the Jews, who were the first to write the book of Genesis? Are you willing to sit and listen to what THEY have to say about the literal interpretation of Genesis? Are you willing to accept that Jews, those first people in communion with God, have much more intrinsic and deeper meaning in the book of Genesis? I dare you to ask them what they have to say about the foundations of their cosmology, the Kabbalah. And no, Madonna has nothing at all to do with that. She is a pretentious fool being led by New Agers who use the rich thought of the Kabbalah for commercial purposes.

Are you willing to ask these questions AND hear the answers? Or are you so convinced of your own superiority? God gaves us brains to THINK as well as hearts and souls to feel. From your comments, I dont think you are using the tool God gave you, and that alone is a sin.

I ask Jews those questions daily, I am willing to listen to anyone. What I am not willing to do is be insulted. I will debate, but I will not argue, I will listen but I will not be insulted.

As for the Jews interpretation, I will ask you a question if I may.

Can you find even one Hebrew scholar who does not believe that the day in Genesis one is a literal 24 hour day? I'll even accept one who supports evolution.

The Hebrew word of day is Yowm, in Genesis one is clarified with a number before it, one the first Yom... etc.

Let me show you what I mean.

1 ¶ In the beginning God <'elohiym> created <'eth> the heaven and <'eth> the earth <'erets>.

2 And the earth <'erets> was without form , and void ; and darkness was upon the face of the deep . And the Spirit of God <'elohiym> moved upon <`al> the face of the waters .

3 ¶ And God <'elohiym> said <'amar>, Let there be light <'owr>: and there was light <'owr>.

4 And God <'elohiym> saw <'eth> the light <'owr>, that it was good : and God <'elohiym> divided the light <'owr> from the darkness .

5 And God <'elohiym> called the light <'owr> Day , and the darkness he called Night . And the evening <`ereb> and the morning were the first <'echad> day .

6 ¶ And God <'elohiym> said <'amar>, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters , and let it divide the waters from the waters .

7 And God <'elohiym> made <`asah> the firmament , and divided the waters which <'aher> were under the firmament from the waters which <'aher> were above <`al> the firmament : and it was so .

8 And God <'elohiym> called the firmament Heaven . And the evening <`ereb> and the morning were the second day .

9 ¶ And God <'elohiym> said <'amar>, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto <'el> one <'echad> place , and let the dry land appear : and it was so.

10 And God <'elohiym> called the dry land Earth <'erets>; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas : and God <'elohiym> saw that it was good .

11 And God <'elohiym> said <'amar>, Let the earth <'erets> bring forth grass , the herb <`eseb> yielding seed , and the fruit tree <`ets> yielding <`asah> fruit after his kind , whose <'aher> seed is in itself, upon the earth <'erets>: and it was so.

12 And the earth <'erets> brought forth grass , and herb <`eseb> yielding seed after his kind , and the tree <`ets> yielding <`asah> fruit , whose seed was in itself, after his kind : and God <'elohiym> saw that it was good .

13 And the evening <`ereb> and the morning were the third day .

14 ¶ And God <'elohiym> said <'amar>, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night ; and let them be for signs <'owth>, and for seasons , and for days , and years :

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light <'owr> upon the earth <'erets>: and it was so.

16 And God <'elohiym> made <`asah> two great lights ; the greater light to rule the day , and the lesser light to rule the night : he made the stars also.

17 And God <'elohiym> set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light <'owr> upon the earth <'erets>,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night , and to divide the light <'owr> from the darkness : and God <'elohiym> saw that it was good .

19 And the evening <`ereb> and the morning were the fourth day .

Now, there are some respected Christian and Hebrew scholars who still try to justify by saying that in Genesis one Yowm is really “era” or thousand years. Neither of these float because of two things. First even if it were thousands of years, which it isn’t, and I’ll show you why in a moment, thousands of years are not long enough for evolution, they have to have billions of years.

Now to why yowm is not anything other than a literal 24 hour day in Generis one.

IN Exodus twenty we have God not speaking, but writing, He wrote the tablets with His own finger. They are called the Ten Commandments. Not one Jewish theologian that I know of disputes that God wrote the Ten Commandments Himself with His own finger on tablets of stone.

This is what they, the tablets, say on the issue of a literal six day week.

8 Remember the sabbath day , to keep it holy .

9 Six days shalt thou labour <`abad>, and do <`asah> all thy work :

10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God <'elohiym>: in it thou shalt not do <`asah> any work , thou, nor thy son , nor thy daughter , thy manservant <`ebed>, nor thy maidservant <'amah>, nor thy cattle , nor thy stranger that is within thy gates :

11 For in six days the LORD made <`asah> heaven and earth <'erets>, the sea , and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day : wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day , and hallowed it.

So, in Exodus twenty we have verification, by God Himself that yes indeed He meant six literal 24 hour days, for can you imagine the uproar if what cause if what He meant was six one thousand year days. Imagine working 6,000 years than take a 1000 years off. Get’s even funnier when you substitute days with eons.

Hope that helps,
Jake

76 posted on 10/11/2005 8:31:46 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: vannrox; mlc9852; newsgatherer; Ichneumon

"John M. Rensberger, former curator of paleontology at the Burke Museum at the University of Washington, Seattle, called Feduccia's paper "the best presentation" he's seen yet of the argument that birds did not descend from theropods. But he agreed with Xu that Feduccia's theory has flaws. Regarding alleged differences in bird and theropod hand morphology, both he and Wu said scientists are still debating whether birds display the 1-2-3 digit arrangement or the 2-3-4. "It really hasn't been proven one way or the other," he said. .." ~ vannrox (quoting Rensberger)

I'm a "creationist", but not a "Young Earth Creationist" (see my profile page for details if interested), however it seems to me as if the YEC, Dr Jonathan D. Sarfati - [B.Sc. (Hons.), Ph.D., F.M. Physical Chemist and Spectroscopist AiG (Australia)] - makes some very valid points here:

Under this heading at bottom of commentary posted here
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2003/0128feathered.asp

See: Postscript: Feduccia v Creationists

[snip]

"The corn in Mexico, originally the size of the head of a wheat plant, has no resemblance to modern-day corn. If that’s not evolution in action, I do not know what is." ~ Feduccia

Wow, so the best proof of goo-to-you evolution he can come up with is corn turning into corn?!

But he has yet to prove that this is an increase in information, which would be required to turn scales into feathers or a reptile lung into a bird lung (something Feduccia never explains in his encyclopaedic book The Origin and Evolution of Birds10).

Rather, this is yet another example of sorting or loss of previously-existing genetic information­this sort of change is in the opposite direction from evolution (see The evolution train’s a-comin’).

Note also a common phenomenon. An evolutionist who is an expert in one field thinks that the best evidence for evolution is in a totally different field, in which he does not speak as an authority.

For example, a palaeontologist says, ‘The fossil record shows that most creatures appear fully formed, and an extreme rarity of transitional forms. But the embryologists have shown that early embryos look alike, which proves evolution.’

But an embryologist says, ‘Richardson showed that Haeckel faked the drawings purporting to show embryonic similarity. But the molecular biologists have shown that the similarity of DNA points to evolution from a common ancestor’.

However, the molecular biologist says, ‘There are huge differences in DNA sequences; contradictory phylogenies; and intricate biological machinery, e.g. the rotary motors of the bacterial flagellum and F1-ATPase. But the paleontologists have shown that the fossils show an evolutionary sequence.’

...Feduccia stated:

The difference between feathers and scales is very, very small. You can transform bird scutes [the scales on bird feet] into feathers with the application of bone morphogenic protein.

This totally misses the point that the cells from which scutes are formed have the genetic information for feathers already present, but turned off. Somehow the chemical induced the genes coding for feathers to switch back on.

Feduccia’s ‘evidence’ offers not the slightest support for the idea that the genetic information for feathers arose where none previously existed.

It would be a totally different matter if bone morphogenic protein could transform scales into feathers on a reptile, which has no genetic information for feathers!

Feduccia’s claim parallels an earlier misinformed claim that retinoic acid (vitamin A) could turn scales into feathers. See Putting Feathers on Reptiles for further explanation, and for electron micrographs showing the immense differences between feathers and scales. Also, feather proteins ( -keratins) are biochemically different from skin and scale proteins ( -keratins).11

These simple mistakes by Feduccia once more illustrate the fact that even world-class experts are usually laymen outside their own field. ...

Conversely, the major propagandists for evolution tend to be atheistic story-tellers like Richard Dawkins or ‘political animals’ like fellow atheistic anthropologist Eugenie Scott


77 posted on 10/11/2005 8:32:26 AM PDT by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: joeclarke

That's not all he said. The other thing he said was that no museum guide would recite creationist cant. If they did, they should be (and almost certainly would be) fired from their job immediately. Is this clear to you now?


78 posted on 10/11/2005 8:32:53 AM PDT by jayef
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To: jayef
You know, I'm getting a bit tired of you calling me a liar, you had best be able to defend it.

Do you know the guide I am referring to?

Where you there?

Do you know every guide in ever museum in the world?

Do you know any of the kids or parents that were there?

If not, I do think you are making a lot of assumptions, but them again, assuming that all started with nothing and that nothing became a frog and over millions and millions of years that frog became your great, great, granddaddy 2 zillions times removed (a monkey), makes me think that you can assume just about anything and given enough time you can convince yourself that it is true, that it is a fact, even science.

79 posted on 10/11/2005 8:41:40 AM PDT by newsgatherer
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To: Ichneumon
"Look, son, I'm sure you believe that, because the creationist propaganda factories produce that lie over and over again, and you made the mistake of believing it. But it's not true. And while there may be a few confused idiots in with "credentials" who have bought into the same lies..."

It' amazing to amuzing how that evolutionary God-deniers have turned into fairly well-styled preachers...like many politically-correct religionists.
80 posted on 10/11/2005 8:47:35 AM PDT by Free Baptist
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To: RogueIsland
"A shame none of [people who hold real, laudable credentials] ever show up here."

Well, there is a tremendous creation-science series on CD by Dr. Kent Hovind, and he is reachable in Pensacola. We'll see what we can do. He likely has some good material on the dating processes. I'm headed now to check his web site. We've sponsored public showings of his series several times on Luzon Island, Philippines. Great crowds have come, and we may do it again.
81 posted on 10/11/2005 8:58:00 AM PDT by Free Baptist
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To: GadareneDemoniac

The only good reason for a reptilian-skinned creature to grow feathers would be to keep warm.


82 posted on 10/11/2005 9:02:53 AM PDT by Old Professer (Fix the problem, not the blame!)
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To: Free Baptist

I just checked Dr. Dino's website, and sadly he's removed his picture of the Loch Ness monster as evidence of modern dinosaurs.


83 posted on 10/11/2005 9:06:23 AM PDT by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: mlc9852
To help prove that theory, co-researcher Dr. Theagarten Lingham-Soliar buried a dolphin for one year, then exhumed it and looked at the patterns of decay.

Lutefisk.....

84 posted on 10/11/2005 9:10:40 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: Free Baptist
Well, there is a tremendous creation-science series on CD by Dr. Kent Hovind,

I love the smell of dramatic irony in the morning

85 posted on 10/11/2005 9:14:52 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Paging Nehemiah Scudder:the Crazy Years are peaking. America is ready for you.)
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To: Ichneumon

Given the subject of the article in question, it's more than slightly ironic that you should be posting your "theropod dinosaur to bird evolutionary transition" thingy on this particular thread. Perhaps you should consider retiring it for a bit....


86 posted on 10/11/2005 9:19:16 AM PDT by r9etb
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To: r9etb

He's getting ready for the book tour.


87 posted on 10/11/2005 9:26:16 AM PDT by Michael_Michaelangelo (The best theory is not ipso facto a good theory. Lots of links on my homepage...)
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To: Free Baptist
Well, there is a tremendous creation-science series on CD by Dr. Kent Hovind

Kent Hovind? Clearly you jest.

88 posted on 10/11/2005 9:33:02 AM PDT by RogueIsland
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To: megatherium
Evolution is not a threat to my faith, science is not a threat to my faith, and it shouldn't threaten yours either.

Very well said. If one believes that the Scriptures are the Word of God, then one must also believe that nothing a scientist discovers can contradict Scripture. The scientist's conclusions about what he discovered may be in error, but the data itself, if accurately recorded, cannot contradict the Bible. (Two contradictory things cannot both be true.) Thus scientific endeavors are no threat to one's faith. Instead, they cannot do anything other than confirm and strengthen our faith.

89 posted on 10/11/2005 9:48:29 AM PDT by Redcloak (We'll raise up our glasses against evil forces singin' "whiskey for my men and beer for my horses!")
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To: Redcloak

Well . . . except the geocentric solar system . . . that one had to go out the window. And boy, those eliptical orbits really caused quite a stir. Hey, at least we can hang on to the fact that the Earth is flat.


90 posted on 10/11/2005 9:56:51 AM PDT by jayef
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To: Redcloak

I'm thinking about conducting an experiment to prove your theory. All I need is a few volunteers. Meet me at the whale tank at SeaWorld in Orlando and I'll give you further instructions upon my arrival.


91 posted on 10/11/2005 10:00:58 AM PDT by jayef
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To: Liberal Classic
Patterson goes on to acknowledge that there are gaps in the fossil record, but points out that this is possibly due to the limitations of what fossils can tell us. He finishes the paragraph with:

". . .Fossils may tell us many things, but one thing they can never disclose is whether they were ancestors of anything else." Dr. Colin Patterson, British Museum of Natural History

It is actually this (the above) statement which is the key to interpreting the Sunderland quote correctly; it is not possible to say for certain whether a fossil is in the direct ancestral line of a species group. Lionel Thevnissen of Talk Origins.

The alleged out of context quote.

"I fully agree with your comments about the lack of direct illustration of evolutionary transitions in my book. If I knew of any, fossil or living, I would have certainly included them....". Dr. Colin Patterson, British Museum of Natural History.

The Patterson quote was not taken out of contest. And with the "it is not possible to say for certain" quote from Thevnissen you end up with "transitional forms" being nothing but SWAGs.

92 posted on 10/11/2005 10:01:15 AM PDT by Donald Rumsfeld Fan ("Memos on Bush Are Fake but Accurate". NYTimes)
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan

What form do you believe a "direct" illustration would take? Do you even understand what he is and is not saying in this quote?


93 posted on 10/11/2005 10:04:47 AM PDT by jayef
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To: jayef

I have a friend that's a nuclearchemist and another who is a PhD in Zoology and they both laugh at evolutionists. To quote them, "Open up your eyes and look around."


94 posted on 10/11/2005 10:05:11 AM PDT by Pure Country
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To: jayef
The Bible did not make that claim. Furthermore, at a time when people pictured the Earth resting on the shoulders of giants or the backs of turtles, the Bible stated that the Earth was suspended upon nothing; i.e. floating in space. The shape of the Earth is also described as circular or spherical. (The Hebrew word in question could be used for either shape.)

How about beating up on Christians for what we actually believe rather than what you think we believe?
95 posted on 10/11/2005 10:07:21 AM PDT by Redcloak (We'll raise up our glasses against evil forces singin' "whiskey for my men and beer for my horses!")
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To: Pure Country

I have a friend who works at Subway and another friend who drives a bus. They both laugh at creationists. To quote them, "some people revel in their ignorance and blindness".


96 posted on 10/11/2005 10:07:43 AM PDT by jayef
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To: Donald Rumsfeld Fan

What Patterson says is by looking at a fossil it is not possibe to determine if you are looking at a direct ancestor, or a some sort of branch or offshoot. Direct ancestry cannot be determined from fossil evidence; that's for comparitive genomics. We're not going to find direct transitions because in order for this to occur we would need fossils every parent, child, and subsequent descendent. Of course, such a thing is impossible. However, this is convienent for the supporters of creationism to latch on to, because they get to imply evolution is impossible and they get to quote a palaeontologist as saying something that sounds like transitions don't exist. By reading Patterson's actual work it is clear he doesn't believe this. Also, if you read the statement by Patterson, he explains himself how his words were surreptitious record and twisted against his will.


97 posted on 10/11/2005 10:18:40 AM PDT by Liberal Classic (No better friend, no worse enemy. Semper Fi.)
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To: vannrox
Feduccia explained that most primitive vertebrate hand structures were like that of humans: five-fingered. Somewhere in the evolutionary process, both dinosaurs and birds lost two of those digits, leaving three behind.

"The question is, which three? In dinosaurs we know it's the thumb and the next two fingers," he said, something experts call the "1-2-3" morphology. But the study's third author, Dr. Richard Hinchliffe -- a recognized expert in vertebrate limb development -- "points out that there are five different assessments showing that the bird hand has the three middle fingers left," the "2-3-4" morphology, Feduccia said.

Digit Order

98 posted on 10/11/2005 10:22:27 AM PDT by dread78645 (Sorry Mr. Franklin, We couldn't keep it.)
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To: jayef; Pure Country
I have a friend who works at Subway and another friend who drives a bus. They both laugh at creationists.

You arguing from the fallacy of "Appeal to Authority"

99 posted on 10/11/2005 10:23:14 AM PDT by Oztrich Boy (Paging Nehemiah Scudder:the Crazy Years are peaking. America is ready for you.)
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To: Redcloak

What you believe is not in question. What was once orthodoxy is.


100 posted on 10/11/2005 10:29:31 AM PDT by jayef
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