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Another Outrage from Child Protection Services
Emial | 10/17/05 | Mark I. Johnson

Posted on 10/17/2005 12:14:30 PM PDT by Carry_Okie

Interested Parents,

Tuesday, October 18th at the Biltmore Hotel & Conference Center – 7:00 – 8:30pm, we are holding a meeting to inform, educate, and rally the public around the egregious abuse of power by the Santa Clara Social Services, Department of Children and Family Services (DCFS) – Child Protective Services (CPS) as they attempt to rip my family, and many others apart. The Biltmore is located just south of Montague Expressway, east of highway 101 at 2151 Laurelwood Rd, Santa.

At issue are three key points that will be of interest to you as a parent:

  1. Our rights as parents to raise and educate our children as we deem appropriate within the law, free from the harassment and abuse of Social Services,

  2. Our rights as adoptive parents / families to seek and utilize resources that will help solidify the bonds of attachment which are essential to a successful adoption, and

  3. The need for change in the policies of DFCS that will position them to embrace and support families rather than vilify parents and destroy families.

Synopsis of our Situation – The Johnson Family (my family) - is currently under siege by the Santa Clara Social Services, Department of Children and Family Services (DFCS) – Child Protective Services group (sometimes referred to as Emergency Response). The department’s intense interest in my family stems from an allegation of child abuse related to our oldest son who was adopted at birth, and who suffers from drug and alcohol abuse in-utero and a condition called Reactive Attachment Disorder (RAD). It is my understanding that the mother of a baby sitter made the report after talking with her daughter who has never met my adopted son, and only sat one time for my two younger children for one day in our home. The sitter observed inconsistencies the furnishing of my oldest son’s room and observed the smell of urine. On this basis this, the mother, who has never met any member of my family, or stepped foot in our home, or discussed the circumstances surrounding our son, reported us to the police as child abusers.

Because we are home schoolers, we initially consulted the HSLDA who advised us not to allow CPS into our home or to interview our children unsupervised. We were further advised to seek the services of a local attorney to ensure that our rights as parents were not violated as we work to clear our names related to the allegations of child abuse, which we did.

The DFCS, as a result of our refusal to allow them to interrogate our young children without supervision, together with the fact that we home school and therefore they are unable to gain access to our children without our permission (as is commonly done when children attend school outside of the home), went to court and swore out a Protective Custody Warrant to force themselves into our home, to have their way with our children, and to remove my oldest son into their protective custody. Today, my wife and children are in hiding to protect our family, in a location not even know to me, while I have been engaged in a very distressing and disruptive court battle in an effort to have the Protective Custody Warrant quashed, a request that was denied last Friday.

To date, no one at DFCS has been interested in understanding our unique parenting needs, the resources we have used and the third parties who can speak to quality of our parenting, and love that we have for of all of our children. Their action, based on our stance of “tell us what you are concerned about so we can give you reasonable access to our family to resolve them”, has been to take the child and ask questions later. They have leveraged the courts in this effort.

Since DFCS has no interest, nor apparent requirements to ascertain the facts before they have ripped our family apart, we’ve decided to share them with you. Perhaps when you speak out someone in the agency will finally listen to how they are about to destroy yet another family in an effort to “protect” a child that does not need protection and initiate policy based changes. This is why I urge you to come out Tuesday evening! This is a completely free event paid for out of my paycheck.

Thank you for your support,

Mark I. Johnson


TOPICS: US: California; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: california; carryokie; childabduction; cps; homeschooling
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
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To: mosquitobite
Until proven guilty! Hell yes! Otherwise, you might as well wipe your butt with the Constitution!

Once again, people here are confusing "in a court of law" with "on a message board".

251 posted on 10/18/2005 7:23:50 AM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: MineralMan

My reply is not intended to offend you MM, but it may offend you simply because I intend to be blunt.

Why should we accept your personal testimony over the email sent to Carey, and her personal testimony. Her post has some facts that can be validated with research and has been supported by Sandy, another long established memeber of this board.

Your testimony though has some bais hurdles that need to be overcome. First, you are an atheist, and the majority of home schoolers are Christians. From your bio, it appears that in the past you have been confronted by zealous Christians and are tired of it. I could be wrong about that, but the inference is not a huge leap.

Second, your personal testimony versus my personal testimony. I also worked for a local public library, but not for anywhere near as many hours as you. The reason I limited my tenure is that I found almost to the librarian, most were pro-public school. So zealous were they in fact that they were angered by home schoolers.

I suspect this anger, from the older librarians was from the idea that when they started at the library, schools were decent and now pride prevents them from admitting they were wrong in their near fanatic support of public school, even though schools have now deteriorated to daytime juvenile detention centers.

The horrible accounts of the CPS taking children from law-abiding parents, mostly home schoolers are nothing new. Well over twenty years, socialist zealots who hate home schooling have filled the ranks of the CPS and have taken chidren and kept them from the parents for several years.


252 posted on 10/18/2005 7:24:47 AM PDT by Sensei Ern (Now, IB4Z! I would rather visit Rwanda on a bad day than France on a good day.)
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To: Seamoth

"FAS can often produce a "child without a conscience". My bet is that this kid is sheer evil--abusing his siblings, destroying property, etc. That Carry_Okie hasn't met this kid because the parents can't bring him to church is quite telling. I have heard of caregivers who would never otherwise hurt a fly resort to chaining FAS kids to bed every night so they can get some sleep; they can be that violent & destructive.
"

That's possible, but we don't have enough information to make that assumption. We do know that the kid is supposed to have RAD. Since none of us are there, we can't decide what the best course is in this case.

I'm just concerned about the possibility that some of the more, shall I say, unorthodox therapies are being used here. If that is the case, then CPS has a legitimate reason to thoroughly investigate.

Perhaps we'll learn more. Perhaps not.


253 posted on 10/18/2005 7:26:07 AM PDT by MineralMan (godless atheist)
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To: writmeister
Which brings me back to my wonderment in post #201 about why the therapist was not permitted to testify and whether the child's pediatrician or other doctors were called to testify. As Carrie-Okie pointed out, since the proceedings were confidential, we do not know who testified and who was not permitted to testify. That knowledge would be helpful in answering many of the debated questions on this thread.

There are two likely scenarios: 1. CPS is running roughshod on these people, or 2. The therapist has questionable practices. Finding out who the therapist is would very quickly resolve much of the questions here.

254 posted on 10/18/2005 7:27:40 AM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: Rodney King
That is my thought since this case had to go before the family court judge and that judge had to make the decisions on any child removal.

That said, I know nothing about Santa Clara County. I suspect that the judges are quite different from the mainly conservative family judges where I live who are fairly strict about removals.

255 posted on 10/18/2005 7:32:01 AM PDT by writmeister
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To: Rodney King
Are you Harriet Miers? LOL Are you the judge or jury?

Do you not know that if CPS came to your house and kidnapped or attempted to kidnap your children I would be right there defending you? Naive? Maybe.

But I happen to like the "innocent until proven guilty" thingy in our Constitution. That is NOT what happens when CPS is called. It's a witch hunt, plain and simple. It is an abused agency most often used by feminists and leftists to suit their agenda.

State Sponsored Terrorism

http://www.fightcps.com">Fight CPS
http://groups.msn.com/FightCPS
http://fightcps.blogspot.com/
http://www.angelfire.com/ny3/emap/fight/cps.html
http://reliableanswers.com/cps/

256 posted on 10/18/2005 7:39:25 AM PDT by mosquitobite (What we permit; we promote. ~ Mark Sanford for President!)
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To: mosquitobite
Do you not know that if CPS came to your house and kidnapped or attempted to kidnap your children I would be right there defending you? Naive? Maybe. But I happen to like the "innocent until proven guilty" thingy in our Constitution. That is NOT what happens when CPS is called. It's a witch hunt, plain and simple. It is an abused agency most often used by feminists and leftists to suit their agenda.

Look, I agree with you 100%. I would support any and all changes to CPS to make them conform to the constiution. However, meanwhile that is not going to prevent me from discussing whether or not there might be something to CPS's case when there are a few troubling signs despite the fact that we only have one side of the story.

257 posted on 10/18/2005 7:42:09 AM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: MortMan
The $100.00 annual fee for membership covers an initial consult

Is this true? I've been a member of HSLDA for around 14 years and always thought it covered the complete cost of a trial. Thankfully, I've never had to find out.

258 posted on 10/18/2005 7:47:11 AM PDT by cantfindagoodscreenname (Is it OK to steal tag lines from tee-shirts and bumper stickers?)
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To: Rodney King
In my unofficial capacity as a FR BusyBody I call you to task for your blaming all of FR.

Take notice! This will be placed in your records. It will not be tolerated!

Now, go back and insert the word "some" before FR and I'll drop the complaint. ;^)

259 posted on 10/18/2005 7:48:41 AM PDT by rw4site (Little men want Big Government!)
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To: mosquitobite

I'm not endorsing the abusive tactics that are often used by CPS agencies, and I agree that these cases should be handled as crminal cases. Police should be in charge of any removal of children from their homes, and social workers should just be along to help. BUT family and friends need someone to call when they think they see a need for intervention, because family and frineds are no more entitled to grab children from their parents than are misguided social workers.

Some abusive parents are violent, and may react to an attempted intervention by family or neighbors by either assaulting the person who tried to intervene, or by stepping up the abuse of the child (and sometime the mother as well). Which is another reason why police, and not just social workers, should be in charge of intervention actions. After a parent has been charged, and been through a court proceeding, THEN it can be appropriate to have some court-imposed requirement that the family or parent submit to some social worker-only involvement.

Removal of the child can't always wait for a court proceeding. Too often, the child is dead before criminal charges can be brought. If police learn that a parent is taking a child to a "therapist" who is "prescribing" dangerous pseudo-treatments, and can provide a judge with evidence of that much, then the state should be able to intervene. I do think, however, that when the state is removing a child from a home, there should be an option for the whole family to move into a supervised residential facility, until the parents are tried, and either cleared or convicted. It would be much less traumatizing to children and parents, while still enabling the state to protect the child from serious harm.


260 posted on 10/18/2005 7:50:02 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: rw4site

Right, I apologize, it should read "some".


261 posted on 10/18/2005 7:50:08 AM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: Carry_Okie

BUMP FOR LATER.


262 posted on 10/18/2005 7:50:47 AM PDT by jamaly (I evacuate early and often!)
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To: cantfindagoodscreenname

It's supposed to cover the entire case to resolution. However, their biggest problem from my point of view is that they won't take a whole lot of cases, especially those involving child custody issues where homeschooling becomes a contentious issue. While I can appreciate that child custody involves a lot more than just the homeschooling issue, they won't even provide support for even the homeschooling part of that type of case.


263 posted on 10/18/2005 7:53:47 AM PDT by cinives (On some planets what I do is considered normal.)
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To: Rodney King; writmeister
I agree with Rodney King completely - we don't know enough to make any kind of judgment, but ... just as CPS assumes guilty until proven innocent, I always assume CPS is wrong unless proven otherwise. I think incidents in North Carolina, Florida and New Jersey, just to name a few of the more recent nationally-known incidents, prove how clueless and malicious and mendacious CPS workers are in general.
264 posted on 10/18/2005 7:58:43 AM PDT by cinives (On some planets what I do is considered normal.)
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To: cantfindagoodscreenname

I should have said it covers the initial consult even when the whole process isn't covered. The $100.00 does cover a whole homschooling trial.


265 posted on 10/18/2005 8:08:37 AM PDT by MortMan (Eschew Obfuscation)
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To: cinives
Is it totally unreasonable for the government to interview the child's therapist and other medical professionals treating this child before coming to a conclusion of abuse ?

Yes, if the parents are refusing to identify said therapists and medical professionals, and/or if the therapist is refusing to submit to such an interview (a licensed medical professional would risk losing his/her license for such a refusal, but a self-styled "therapist" doesn't need to worry about that). And I highly doubt that any licensed medical professional is involved with this child's treatment.

266 posted on 10/18/2005 8:25:04 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: Capagrl; Rodney King
So you're maintaining that, based on limited information, it is safe to assume that the mere existence of a "whole bunch of crap RAD therapies" would justify taking a child from his home based on the word of a babysitter who never even met the child?

RK isn't maintaining anything of the sort. Even if the state has no more evidence than what is mentioned in the posted story (which was authored by the accused parent, so can hardly be presumed to be totally objective), they did not attempt to remove the child based only on an allegation by a 16 year old babysitter. The babysitter first told her mother about what she had seen/heard/smelled, and the mother then decided it should be reported to authorities. CPS workers first attempted a voluntary entrance to the home and were denied. They then went to court and got a warrant, only to discover that all the children and the mother had disappeared by the time they went to use it. We don't know what the CPS workers saw/heard/smelled when they were at the open front door of the home, or what the father may have said to them. But it may well have partially confirmed the report by the babysitter that something was seriously amiss there.

It is certainly possible that no abuse is occurring, but the father is making it awfully hard for anyone to find out. And he is apparently offering no information (at least in his public plea here) as to what sorts of "therapies" are being used on the child, or what therapist or doctor recommended the therapies. Either he is refusing to provide the info to the court, or he did tell the court some things which he neglected to mention in his public plea, and those things alarmed the court.

It's also possible that things are a lot worse than even what we've been speculating about here. Since all the children are now missing, can we be confident that the children who gave the babysitter details about the "therapy" weren't beaten to a pulp for telling? Was the mother beaten as punishment for her failures as a housekeeper, that led to the smell of urine in the house? No, I'm not assuming those things are true, but things like that do happen. I recognize that the court probably has a lot more information than we do, and may have good reason to be concerned that major abuse of the difficult adopted child, and possibly of other family members, is occurring.

267 posted on 10/18/2005 8:45:32 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: Rodney King; Carry_Okie
Marking a spot in this thread, I've read the whole thing, and I want to give kudos to both RK and CO for their fairly objective and fair debate, in the absence of very much information, it's been a very interesting debate to read.

I too have seen FR (any message board really) taken for a ride where people take up a cause they really don't know enough about and end up burned. I've seen threads like this bring about good activism too, but I'm wary. I'm always a little suspicious and reluctant to meddle when the FR detective league thinks they have the whole thing figured out after hearing very little.

Yes, innocence should be assumed in court, but advocacy requires full disclosure of the facts. We don't yet have that, only a heads up. We're merely curious outsiders, who are each bringing our biases and politics and tendency to make assumptions to the thread. We don't ~know~ anything.

That said, there is a bit of confusion as to when we have the right of assumption of innocence. CPS, in investigating allegations of abuse has a duty to investigate. As an investigative and enforcement branch of the government, they have no duty to assume innocence, only a duty to uphold the law. Your right to be assumed innocent does not protect you from investigation or prosecution, only from being convicted without due process. The prosecutor does not have the role of assuming your innocence, a court does. That's the process. There's no indication here that CPS is acting outside the law, but there is indication the family is. You cannot obstruct that process on claims of a right to not be investigated.
268 posted on 10/18/2005 8:49:56 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: HairOfTheDog

Thanks! Considering our last two run-ins were negative.


269 posted on 10/18/2005 8:55:38 AM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: Rodney King

"There are two likely scenarios: 1. CPS is running roughshod on these people, or 2. The therapist has questionable practices. Finding out who the therapist is would very quickly resolve much of the questions here."

And there is zero information being offered as to who the therapist is.


270 posted on 10/18/2005 8:58:07 AM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse (MORE COWBELL! MORE COWBELL! MORE! MORE! (CLANK-CLANK-CLANK))
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To: dmz

Members of HSLDA can call and receive help immediately from an attorney, 24 hours a day. If CPS comes to your door, you can call HSLDA, they will have an attorney on the phone almost immediately and you hand the phone out the door and they will talk to the CPS officer. I would have called HSLDA also, if it had been my family. Peace of mind for $115 a year. Priceless!


271 posted on 10/18/2005 9:01:06 AM PDT by texpat72 (<><)
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To: Capagrl

Investigators are not there to presume innocence; that is the role of the court. The investigator is there to ascertain facts. This email is very careful to avoid giving out much in the way of hard fact, and the emailer's tactics seem to be very carefully aimed at avoiding prison time as opposed to actually protecting his family.

Flight to avoid investigation has always been viewed as a sign of guilt from the first days of the Republic. It is a case of actions speaking louder than words.


272 posted on 10/18/2005 9:06:39 AM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse (MORE COWBELL! MORE COWBELL! MORE! MORE! (CLANK-CLANK-CLANK))
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To: Rodney King

Different day, different debate. :~D


273 posted on 10/18/2005 9:12:23 AM PDT by HairOfTheDog (Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: hopespringseternal
All true, but the flip side of that is that CPS has seen many cases where pseudo-homeschooling has been used in order to avoid detection of abuse. And there is a certain subset of homeschoolers who aren't just normally concerned with the pathetic lack of academic and social standards in public (and many private) schools, but are suffering from full blown paranoia and other psychiatric disorders and/or involvement with cult-like organizations, which form the primary basis for their decision to homeschool. Russell and Andrea Yates were "homeschoolers" who fit both those categories.

When CPS gets an allegation about abuse of a homeschooled child, statistically it is more likely to be true than an allegation about an outside-schooled child, for the simple reason that a child who is being seen by a variety of other adults and children outside the home every day, is more likely to have already come to the attention of police and/or CPS if there is real abuse going on. And out of all the confirmed cases of severe child abuse, a much higher percentage are in children whose parents claim to be homeschooling them, than in children who have been attending outside schools. This is due both to the phenomenon of deliberate use of phony homeschooling to conceal abuse, and the fact that severe abuse or neglect of a child who is attending an outside school, is usually detected before it reaches the national headlines level. One has to think that the Yates children would still be alive if they had been attending even the lousiest public schools, because their appearance and the things they said about their home life would certainly have tipped off authorities that intervention was urgently needed.

The bias against homeschoolers is very real, though, and ought to be formally addressed. Homeschooled children rarely grow up to be low paid government workers, so CPS workers have virtually never been homeschooled themselves, nor do they usually have any colleagues who were homeschooled. As a result, their experience with homeschooled families is seriously skewed toward those who have been the target of abuse reports, and while plenty of perfectly innocent homeschool families have been the targets of such reports, I'm sure the percentage of truly abusive homeschool families who've been reported to CPS is far higher than the percentage of all homeschool families who are trulyabusive. HSLDA would do well to start a program in which sane and healthy homeschool families invite CPS workers and social work students planning to go into CPS-type work, into their homes to see how it works.

274 posted on 10/18/2005 9:17:28 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse
Flight to avoid investigation has always been viewed as a sign of guilt from the first days of the Republic. It is a case of actions speaking louder than words.

Indeed. And in this regard, FReepers should apply the same standards to homeschoolers, as we generally apply to people who are shot while fleeing police.

275 posted on 10/18/2005 9:25:26 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: Rodney King

When I read about "discrepancy in furniture", I thought of the beds you see in pediatric hospitals. They are enclosed, like cages, so small children can't fall or crawl out of bed and hurt themselves. It would be shocking to a child to walk into a room and see a cage and smell urine.


276 posted on 10/18/2005 9:31:47 AM PDT by texpat72 (<><)
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To: GovernmentShrinker

"HSLDA would do well to start a program in which sane and healthy homeschool families invite CPS workers and social work students planning to go into CPS-type work, into their homes to see how it works."

There is a truly original idea.


277 posted on 10/18/2005 9:33:12 AM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse (MORE COWBELL! MORE COWBELL! MORE! MORE! (CLANK-CLANK-CLANK))
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To: dmz; agrace

As a homeschooling family, that would have been the first thing we did as well.


278 posted on 10/18/2005 9:35:27 AM PDT by lightingguy (Sorry, I got distracted)
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse

Maybe one of the HSLDA members on this thread will send it in to them. I know there really is a lot of innappropriate government interference with homeschoolers, but by focusing only on the negative, I think HSLDA is inadvertently inducing excessive paranoia in a lot of homeschooling parents. That only fuels the problem, because it tends to cause families who really aren't doing anything wrong, to adopt a paranoid defensive posture the minute a CPS worker calls or knocks on the door -- a posture which makes normal people (and some CPS workers do fall into that category) suspicious that something bad really is happening. HSLDA should work both sides of the problem, not just one.


279 posted on 10/18/2005 9:39:31 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: lightingguy

See my post #279


280 posted on 10/18/2005 9:43:54 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: GovernmentShrinker; agrace

With the track record that some, and I reiterate some, Child Protective Service organizations have I don't see consulting someone who can advise you legally as any different from consulting a lawyer in the event of the police wanting to interview me because I may be accused of a crime. I mean, someone has obviously raise a red flag or they wouldn't be there. While I am confident that no crime has been comitted, I would be foolish to not seek the advice of a lawyer.

I just seems like common sense to me, not paranoia.

That said, even if I didn't homeschool I would want advice if CPS came knocking. While Homeschooling families are perhaps hypersensitive there are plenty of instances were wrong has been done, as you acknowlegded.


281 posted on 10/18/2005 9:55:58 AM PDT by lightingguy (Sorry, I got distracted)
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To: texpat72; lightingguy

I have heard from a number of homeschoolers filling in me in on what I did not know. I appreciate the info.


282 posted on 10/18/2005 10:39:47 AM PDT by dmz
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To: GovernmentShrinker
I see a very careful reasoning on your part here, but ... where do you get your information ? There are no known published studies corroborating any of the info you state, ie that homeschoolers reported to CPS are more likely to be abusers. You said and I quote "statistically it is more likely to be true than an allegation about an outside-schooled child". Where do you get your statistics ? Source ?

The fact of the matter is that there are a few well-publicized cases, like the Yates, and the Jacksons in NJ, and the family in NC, who are indeed using home schooling as a cover for other problems. But, statistically, it is insignificant. The vast majority of families reported to CPS are families with children not yet of school age. See this link for a start:

http://nccanch.acf.hhs.gov/pubs/factsheets/fatality.cfm

It points out that from national statistics, only 12% of fatally abused children are kids 8 and older. As far as non-fatal abuse of older children is concerned, most is sexual abuse and most often occurs when a child lives with a single parent. Do you know how many single parents homeschool ? I can tell you that I am one, and after 4 years I have yet to meet any other single parent who homeschools.

So, substantiate your post, please.

283 posted on 10/18/2005 11:01:02 AM PDT by cinives (On some planets what I do is considered normal.)
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To: dmz

Maybe they called the homeschool defense group because homeschoolers are often targeted by so-called Child Protective Services??? So they have much experience with the problem?

I don't get what you don't get.


284 posted on 10/18/2005 11:12:27 AM PDT by Shazolene
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To: AppyPappy

I went to school with the author of "Anonymous Tip", (Mike Farrell).
The story is real, but written as fiction.
He wrote the book, not because of some isolated outrage, but because it happens all too often!


285 posted on 10/18/2005 11:21:28 AM PDT by G Larry (Only strict constructionists on the Supreme Court!)
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To: Rodney King

The therapist is LINDA IKEDA.
It was mentioned earlier.


286 posted on 10/18/2005 11:24:17 AM PDT by Shazolene
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse

LINDA IKEDA is the therapist.
It was mentioned earlier.


287 posted on 10/18/2005 11:27:57 AM PDT by Shazolene
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To: cinives

I read an awful lot and don't recall where I saw that info. But I'm pretty sure it applied only to school age children (hard to see how a toddler could be categorized as "homeschooled" in any formal statistics). Also would have applied only to reported cases, and unfortunately, most older children who are being sexually abused don't ever get reported. I know that pre-school aged children are certainly the biggest category of severe child abuse cases, and it's for the same reason that "homeschooled" children are disproportionately represented in abuse cases of older children -- nobody is in a position to see the early warning signs, so by the time the situation comes to light, it's usually because the child is found dead, or one parent has brought a critically injured and often unconscious child to a hospital emergency room, or a terrified emaciated battered child has escaped the home and been found in the streets.

I don't think the highly publicized horror story cases are anywhere near the majority of homeschooling-as-cover cases. They're just the ones with most awful outcomes. Especially in rural areas, most not-really-homeschooling cases probably wouldn't even get reported to authorities. And most that do get reported usually end up being resolved with nothing more dramatic than a court order requiring that the child be sent to school, after a court-ordered assessment test finds that the child is many years behind grade-level standards and that there is no evidence of organized educational activity at home. Most of the not-really-homeschooling that goes on doesn't involve vicious beatings or starvation or sexual abuse, but just keeping the child at home without teaching him or her basic academic skills, and usually requiring the child to spend an inordinate amount of time doing chores that the adults ought to be doing. Still legitimate for the state to intervene IMO, especially since reams of studies have shoen that a child who hasn't learned to read well by around age 10 has missed teh neurological window and will never be able to learn to read really well.


288 posted on 10/18/2005 11:29:08 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: Shazolene

Where was it mentioned earlier?


289 posted on 10/18/2005 11:39:01 AM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: Shazolene

She was given as AN "attachment therapist" operating in the area, not THE therapist working this case.


290 posted on 10/18/2005 11:41:55 AM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse (MORE COWBELL! MORE COWBELL! MORE! MORE! (CLANK-CLANK-CLANK))
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To: Carry_Okie

"Killpack dad guilty, jurors say [Killed daughter with waaay too much water. Father mis-charged.]"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1504677/posts

An update on the story of the 4 year old girl whose mother killed her with "therapy" for "attachment disorder"

The info in this story is confirming a sneaking suspicion I've had about this "disorder/therapy". I think about 99.999% of the practitioners of this pseudo-treatment are stay-at-home mothers. Someone capable of holding down a paying job in the real job would have too much common sense, and too much day-to-day exposure reality, to buy into this. And it appears that in this particular case, the degree to which this "therapy" was being practiced was not fully known by the father.


291 posted on 10/18/2005 11:48:15 AM PDT by GovernmentShrinker
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To: grjr21
"The department’s intense interest in my family stems from an allegation of child abuse related to our oldest son who was adopted at birth"

They may have a cause to be suspicious

Good point. I'm not suggesting that they shouldn't investigate the claim at all, but it is odd that this allegation has sat around all this time uninvestigated. There is also a diagnosis of FAE/FAS from the documented alcohol and substance abuse of the birth mother. This can hamper his ability to attach, that can be a difficult diagnosis for a child and for his/her parents, in this case the adoptive parents. It is possible the RAD manifested because of an inability of the child to form attachments as a result of the FAS/FAE, but that is something for the experts.

292 posted on 10/18/2005 11:50:19 AM PDT by fortunecookie
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse
Given that "Attachment Therapy" is the biggest frickin' therapy scam out there today now that "repressed memory syndrome" has been debunked, I would like to know who the therapist is before saying s/he is "uniquely qualified" in any way, shape, or form.

Repressed memory syndrome certainly turned out to be ridiculous. But attachment is different in many ways and necessary for each of us. There seems no doubt that some attachment (supposed) therapies are scams, some have done more harm than good. But as for the theory of attachment, how humans bond and it's importance, that is still a valuable part of any persons development. And it can be hindered by illness or abusive parenting methods (not that I'm suggesting it for these folks) or institutionalization. Or medical conditions like FAS/FAE. If there is any dispute as to the therapist's testimony, a medical doctor can diagnosis the FAS/FAE and measure it's severity.

293 posted on 10/18/2005 11:58:56 AM PDT by fortunecookie
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse; GovernmentShrinker
Well, I have found out that this woman teaches this bit of quackery, so who knows what she does with RAD kids:

Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing (EMDR) EMDR is promoted for the treatment of post-traumatic stress, phobias, learning disorders, and many other mental and emotional problems. The method involves asking the client to recall the traumatic event as vividly as possible and rate certain feelings before and after visually tracking the therapist's finger as it is moved back and forth in front of the client's eyes [6]. EMDR's developer and leading proponent, Francine Shapiro, Ph.D., received her nonaccredited doctoral degree in 1988 and established the EMDR Institute to train mental health professionals. She and her associates have trained more than 22,000 clinicians worldwide in workshops that in 1997 cost $385 [7]. EMDR resembles various traditional behavioral therapies for reducing fears in that it requires clients to imagine traumatic events in a gradual fashion in the presence of a supportive therapist. However, controlled research has shown that EMDR's most distinctive feature (visual tracking) is unnecessary and is irrelevant to whatever benefits the patient may receive [8]. Recent reviews have concluded that the data claimed to support EMDR derive mostly from uncontrolled case reports and poorly designed controlled experiments and that the theory of EMDR clashes with scientific knowledge of the role of eye movements [9,10].

The above was from quackwatch

294 posted on 10/18/2005 12:00:47 PM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse; GovernmentShrinker

Here is her business page:

http://hometown.aol.com/rmikeda/new_page_3.htm


295 posted on 10/18/2005 12:01:47 PM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: fortunecookie

Nevertheless, "attachment therapy" as practiced in the US today is, to use an old and honorable cavalry epithet, "more horse**** than gunsmoke." From my reading on the topic, it seems that legitimate practitioners are a minority.


296 posted on 10/18/2005 12:05:53 PM PDT by BeHoldAPaleHorse (MORE COWBELL! MORE COWBELL! MORE! MORE! (CLANK-CLANK-CLANK))
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To: dmz

What again is the connection to the homeschooling?

the connection with homeschooling is simple. child services is allowed to go talk to your child at school, and the principal has to oblige. however, if they ask you first, and you tell them no, they cannot. so most take the advantage by going to the school first. if you homeschool, they have no choice but to ask first. homeschooling "hinders" CPS.


297 posted on 10/18/2005 12:06:31 PM PDT by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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To: Rodney King

maybe its just me, but it would seem that if a child has problems attaching themself to someone, wouldn't forcing them just push them further away?
i know in training animals, if you just grab an animal and try to force it, it will try to either escape, hurt or kill you, or both. its a long process of earning its trust, and developing a bond. wouldn't it make more sense to treat this "attachment disorder" the same way?


298 posted on 10/18/2005 12:10:24 PM PDT by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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To: absolootezer0
maybe its just me, but it would seem that if a child has problems attaching themself to someone, wouldn't forcing them just push them further away? i know in training animals, if you just grab an animal and try to force it, it will try to either escape, hurt or kill you, or both. its a long process of earning its trust, and developing a bond. wouldn't it make more sense to treat this "attachment disorder" the same way?

Common sense on dealing with a kid who doesn't trust anyone would be to show, by example, that you are loving and can be trusted. Of course, nobody would pay for that advice.

299 posted on 10/18/2005 12:12:16 PM PDT by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along.)
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To: BeHoldAPaleHorse
Nevertheless, "attachment therapy" as practiced in the US today is, to use an old and honorable cavalry epithet, "more horse**** than gunsmoke." From my reading on the topic, it seems that legitimate practitioners are a minority.

LOL, that a good analogy! It does seem like a lot of charlatans have sprung up, posers, doing more harm than good. I, too, have read a lot on attachment and attachment theories and am familiar with some of the therapies. I do agree that some seem silly and even counter-indicated and harmful. But attachment itself is important and the ways that attachment or lack of it affects us are astounding. Ways to foster attachment should be and are included in parenting books (and some of them good, some not), some of it is common sense, but some of it seems lost in our materialistic society where some children are often just additional possessions.

stepping off soap box... ;-)

300 posted on 10/18/2005 12:14:49 PM PDT by fortunecookie
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