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Gun Safety for Iraqis
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htinf/articles/20051021.aspx ^ | October 21, 2005

Posted on 10/22/2005 5:05:47 PM PDT by strategofr

One interesting thing Americans discovered, while training Iraqi troops, is that most Iraqi men tend to be very familiar with firearms, especially the Russian AK-series. The country is cursed with an abundance of rifles and assault guns.

In some regions, these weapons are so common that even boys of 12 or so may have one. One would think that this would make training them relatively easy, but in fact it doesn’t. While Iraqi recruits tend to know a lot about firearms, even to the extent that they can maintain them reasonably well, they don’t know a thing about weapons safety.

Consider the Arab custom of firing their weapons into the air on happy occasions (they are called “joy bullets” in Arabic), often with deadly consequences. When someone is killed or injured by the bullets that, inevitably come back to earth, the injury is shrugged off, or blamed on a handy enemy (Palestinians blame Israelis, some Iraqis blame any armed foreigners in the vicinity, or nearby Iraqis they don't get along with).

Thus, American trainers quickly learned that safety training is very important for Iraqi recruits. Indeed, it was found that gun safety training needed far more emphasis for Iraqi troops than for Americans, who live in a culture of safety. Resistance to safety training by Iraqi recruits is pretty high, at least initially.

But once they understand the purpose, they become surprisingly good students, perhaps because they all know someone who lost a goat or a family member to a bullet that was simply obeying the law of gravity. The presence of Egyptian or Jordanian trainers is particularly helpful in accelerating the process of getting Iraqi recruits to accept firearms safety; as brother Arabs and Moslems. In this case there’s less resistance to an “infidel” notion of being careful while using assault rifles.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Government; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: bang; banglist; iraq
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1 posted on 10/22/2005 5:05:48 PM PDT by strategofr
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To: strategofr

First lesson I learned about guns. "Don't point that damn thing at anything or anyone you don't intend to shoot"! The lesson was reinforced if need be with physical reminders.


2 posted on 10/22/2005 5:12:04 PM PDT by saganite (The poster formerly known as Arkie 2)
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To: strategofr
The country is cursed with an abundance of rifles and assault guns.

"Cursed"?

3 posted on 10/22/2005 5:14:28 PM PDT by inquest (FTAA delenda est)
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To: saganite

My dad talk me about firearm safety when I was growing up. I became much more safe after attending a course at Front Sight Firearm Training Institute. I would recommend anyone who owns a gun take a course there. They will only train you if you have a clean background though.


4 posted on 10/22/2005 5:18:18 PM PDT by 2nd_Amendment_Defender ("It is when people forget God that tyrants forge their chains." -- Patrick Henry)
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To: inquest
First lesson I learned about guns. "Don't point that damn thing at anything or anyone you don't intend to shoot"! The lesson was reinforced if need be with physical reminders.

while this is a good lesson its not really too relevent in the situation...actually, these people are pointing at what they want to shoot, the sky. They don't quite understand that they will come down again.

5 posted on 10/22/2005 5:19:34 PM PDT by kanecorp
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To: kanecorp; saganite
Not that I objected to your posting to me, but I think you meant #5 for saganite, not me.

By the way, I think they do understand the physics of it. It's like any stupid thing people do anywhere. Once you grab them by the shoulders and say "Yo! Stupido!", they start to get it, as the article illustrates.

6 posted on 10/22/2005 5:23:50 PM PDT by inquest (FTAA delenda est)
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To: strategofr

*sigh*
DA RULES:
1. ALL guns are ALWAYS loaded - even if you just visually confirmed that it isn't, it still is.
2. Never point a gun at anything you'd mind blowing a hole in. In general, that means keep it pointed down and front, away from all living things.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire - that means keep it out of the trigger-guard entirely until you are fixing to shoot.
4. Be sure of your target, what is between you and your target, and what is behind your target
5. Stand properly, breathe properly, AIM properly, and squeeze the trigger - let the BANG surprise you

gee... not so difficult


7 posted on 10/22/2005 5:43:04 PM PDT by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: strategofr

perhaps because they all know someone who lost a goat or a family member to a bullet ...

or perhaps a goat who WAS a family member...


8 posted on 10/22/2005 5:54:32 PM PDT by tet68 ( " We would not die in that man's company, that fears his fellowship to die with us...." Henry V.)
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To: strategofr

--recalling reading that one of the problems in training Afgans was their reluctance to align the sights of the weapon, I wonder if this is true of Iraqis as well?


9 posted on 10/22/2005 5:55:12 PM PDT by rellimpank (urbanites don' t understand the cultural deprivation of not being raised on a farm:NRABenefactor)
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To: kanecorp

I wonder how much kinetic energy a round from an AK has, after being fired straight up??? Probably would be lethal...


10 posted on 10/22/2005 5:55:16 PM PDT by msf92497 (The most dangerous place to be is in a "mothers" womb.)
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To: msf92497
--nope--small arms ammo coming straight down rarely will do anything but bruise--it's tumbling and has little energy --

(My source is Hatchers Notebook)---

11 posted on 10/22/2005 5:59:20 PM PDT by rellimpank (urbanites don' t understand the cultural deprivation of not being raised on a farm:NRABenefactor)
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To: rellimpank

Thanks! Urban legends...sheesh...


12 posted on 10/22/2005 6:01:00 PM PDT by msf92497 (The most dangerous place to be is in a "mothers" womb.)
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To: msf92497

--the "straight up" is the key part--the stuff that does the damage in Detroit, etc., New Years Eve isn't fired straight up and remains lethal---


13 posted on 10/22/2005 6:03:13 PM PDT by rellimpank (urbanites don' t understand the cultural deprivation of not being raised on a farm:NRABenefactor)
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To: King Prout
2. Never point a gun at anything you'd mind blowing a hole in. In general, that means keep it pointed down and front, away from all living things.

Two years ago, one of my co-workers was out rabbit hunting with a 410 shotgun. He didn't have the safety on, and as he was climbing over a fence, he pulled the trigger, hitting himself in the foot. Fortunately, it was only a 410, so the shell wasn't very large, and the range was less than eighteen inches, so the shot didn't have much of a chance to disperse before hitting him, creating a relatively small hole instead of a large one. The injury still required eighteen plus days in the hospital, three rounds of surgery, and continuing physical therapy.

14 posted on 10/22/2005 6:06:55 PM PDT by Stonewall Jackson ("Those who fail to study history are doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past.")
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To: Stonewall Jackson

*kaff*

"in general"


15 posted on 10/22/2005 6:09:03 PM PDT by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: King Prout; strategofr
Not this.


16 posted on 10/22/2005 6:13:28 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative (France is an example of retrograde chordate evolution.)
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To: Paleo Conservative

*sigh*
if only it had gone off...


17 posted on 10/22/2005 6:18:53 PM PDT by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: msf92497

>I wonder how much kinetic energy a round from an AK has, >after being fired straight up??? Probably would be lethal..

Same velocity as when it left the barrel minus air resistance. First Year Newtonian Physics.


18 posted on 10/22/2005 6:20:48 PM PDT by rasblue
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To: rasblue

not that simple

"point-first and spinning" is a lot more dangerous than is "butt-first and tumbling"


19 posted on 10/22/2005 6:27:20 PM PDT by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: King Prout

How about a round musket ball?


20 posted on 10/22/2005 6:38:43 PM PDT by nralife
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To: rasblue
Same velocity as when it left the barrel minus air resistance. First Year Newtonian Physics.

No. Same velocity as when it left the barrel minus air resistance and gravity until it stops. Then it does a U-turn and gravity pulls it down, (32 fps squared, if I recall correctly, minus air resistance).

Better to get hit with a falling bullet than a hail stone that weighs more than the bullet. Not lethal way more than probably.

21 posted on 10/22/2005 6:40:18 PM PDT by BikerTrash (Enough already with the carnival freak show...bring back COOL!)
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To: inquest

A little 'value added' commentary just to let you know
how the author really feels....

imo


22 posted on 10/22/2005 6:42:54 PM PDT by joesnuffy
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To: nralife

smoothbore or rifled?
if rifled, what caliber, grainage, mv, and twist?
it all matters.


23 posted on 10/22/2005 6:43:25 PM PDT by King Prout (many accuse me of being overly literal... this would not be a problem if many were not under-precise)
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To: King Prout
Damn straight.
Show me a gun "accident", and I'll show you someone who violated one of these basic rules.

As far as teaching kids goes, they see things different. Some rules like no bad language when smashing your thumb, or don't break the speed limit are perceived by kids as "OK" to break "occasionally".{ Because they see adults doing this.}
I try to teach that firearm rules are in the class of rules that you NEVER break, like hitting or cheating on your spouse or stealing, etc.

24 posted on 10/22/2005 6:45:31 PM PDT by labette (Nothing is foolproof to a sufficiently talented fool.)
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To: rasblue
Same velocity as when it left the barrel minus air resistance. First Year Newtonian Physics.

Uh....no.

25 posted on 10/22/2005 6:47:34 PM PDT by BushMeister ("We are a nation that has a government - not the other way around." --Ronald Reagan)
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To: strategofr
because they all know someone who lost a goat or a family member to a bullet

This is just low hanging fruit ...

26 posted on 10/22/2005 6:52:59 PM PDT by VeniVidiVici (Sanford, FL)
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To: strategofr
From my homepage her at FR.........


27 posted on 10/22/2005 6:56:14 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: All
Falling Bullets

I am often asked questions about falling bullets; i.e., “How dangerous can a falling bullet be?” The model I use to answer any falling bullet question is as follows: Will a bullet, such as a 5.56 x 45mm (.223 Remington), if fired at a very high angle (straight up), return to Earth with enough velocity and striking energy to inflict a significant wound?

The military standard for disabling energy, or the amount of energy necessary to produce a casualty, is 58 ft lbs, at a striking velocity of 400 fps. Bullets returning from being fired upward, whether they start their return trip from 2,000 feet, 10,000 feet, or ten miles, will all come back to Earth with the same speed (terminal velocity). Terminal velocity depends on the weight of the bullet and, to a certain extent, on its shape. A 55-grain 5.56 x 45mm bullet leaves the muzzle at roughly 3200 fps and, if fired straight up, will slow down until it finally stops about 9,000 feet above the Earth; then it starts to fall. If it falls point down (not likely) it will return to Earth with a striking velocity of approximately 290 fps, and a striking energy of nine foot pounds or less. If it fell any other way than point down, its fall would be slower and its striking energy less.

The U.S. Army has conducted exhaustive experiments on the subject of falling bullets and has concluded that falling bullets cannot be relied upon to produce dangerous wounds. Guns are usually fired at only moderate elevation – 30º would be considered a high angle by most people. The bullet will then strike with some speed with which it was fired, with a much higher velocity than that of merely a falling bullet. Falling bullets do not kill, only those fired at moderate degrees of elevation will produce significant wounds.

About the Author: Larry J. Nichols is the Burbank, California, Police Department Range Master. He has over 25 years of experience as a firearms instructor; is President of the California Rangemasters Association; and is a U.S.M.C. Vietnam combat veteran. He is also a recognized expert witness on firearms and training issues.

Link

28 posted on 10/22/2005 7:13:22 PM PDT by BushMeister ("We are a nation that has a government - not the other way around." --Ronald Reagan)
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To: strategofr

29 posted on 10/22/2005 7:19:04 PM PDT by Critical Bill ("Iraq is fighting for all the Arabs. Where are the Arab armies?" ... George Galloway MP)
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To: strategofr
" The country is cursed with an abundance of rifles and assault guns."

Sounds more like a blessing to me...but hey...thats just me.

30 posted on 10/22/2005 7:20:17 PM PDT by Xenophon450 (In a world of spoonfed emotion, intelligence can save.)
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To: strategofr

31 posted on 10/22/2005 7:22:04 PM PDT by Critical Bill ("Iraq is fighting for all the Arabs. Where are the Arab armies?" ... George Galloway MP)
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To: Squantos

Mostly good advice. I take some exception to #8 and #2.


32 posted on 10/22/2005 7:23:47 PM PDT by BikerTrash (Enough already with the carnival freak show...bring back COOL!)
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To: tet68

"or perhaps a goat who WAS a family member."

LOL!


33 posted on 10/22/2005 7:31:52 PM PDT by strategofr (The secret of happiness is freedom. And the secret of freedom is courage.---Thucydities)
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To: BikerTrash; Eagle Eye; Travis McGee

# 3 was my bad.......


34 posted on 10/22/2005 7:32:28 PM PDT by Squantos (Be polite. Be professional. But, have a plan to kill everyone you meet. )
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To: rellimpank

"Afgans was their reluctance to align the sights of the

weapon"


Recall why?


35 posted on 10/22/2005 7:32:58 PM PDT by strategofr (The secret of happiness is freedom. And the secret of freedom is courage.---Thucydities)
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To: Stonewall Jackson

"The injury still required eighteen plus days in the hospital, three rounds of surgery, and continuing physical therapy."

Yeah. A "minor" gunshot wound isn't so minor---especially in the foot.


36 posted on 10/22/2005 7:34:48 PM PDT by strategofr (The secret of happiness is freedom. And the secret of freedom is courage.---Thucydities)
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To: Squantos

funny!


37 posted on 10/22/2005 7:36:59 PM PDT by strategofr (The secret of happiness is freedom. And the secret of freedom is courage.---Thucydities)
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To: BushMeister
A very good reply! This subject comes up on FR from time to time and some here think that a falling bullet is akin to a small comet. Nice to have some figures, thank you.

I have heard that a projectile fired at maximum trajectory strikes the ground at around 30 to 40 percent of muzzle velocity. Would you know if this is so?

38 posted on 10/22/2005 7:45:39 PM PDT by BikerTrash (Enough already with the carnival freak show...bring back COOL!)
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To: BikerTrash
Well, as you can see from the article posted above, a 5.56mm bullet leaves the muzzle at over 3,000 FPS, and returns to earth at less than 300 FPS. Obviously, the terminal velocity of a falling bullet in this case is less than 10% of the muzzle velocity. The muzzle energy of a 55gr 5.56mm round is usually about 1250 foot-lbs. If this article is correct, and a falling 5.56mm 55-grain bullet hits with only 9 ft.-lbs, that represents less than 1% of the energy of the bullet leaving the barrel.

An AK bullet (7.62 x 39mm), which usually weighs twice as much (at 125 grains or so) as an M-16 round (the US mil uses mostly 62-grain 5.56mm rounds in M-16s/M4s, actually, not 55 grain) will reach the earth with more energy than a 5.56mm bullet, due to its greater weight. But even if an AK-47 round lands with 4X the energy of a 5.56mm bullet, it probably won't do more than cause a modest wound, which should certainly be survivable.

I saw a much more in-depth article than the one I posted above. If I can find it, I'll post it.

39 posted on 10/22/2005 8:49:56 PM PDT by BushMeister ("We are a nation that has a government - not the other way around." --Ronald Reagan)
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To: BikerTrash

Just wanted to add that a handgun round might actually strike the earth at something like 30%-40% of its muzzle velocity, as you suggest. After all, a handgun bullet typically exits the barrel at around 1,000 FPS. If they land at 300FPS, that's 30% of muzzle velocity.


40 posted on 10/22/2005 8:57:25 PM PDT by BushMeister ("We are a nation that has a government - not the other way around." --Ronald Reagan)
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To: BushMeister
You are still using the figures of a rifle firing straight up. My question concerned maximum trajectory, which if I remember right is 50 to 55 degrees.

But thanks anyway!

41 posted on 10/22/2005 9:03:52 PM PDT by BikerTrash (Enough already with the carnival freak show...bring back COOL!)
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To: BushMeister

Anyone here own a SIG P-220? I've just been granted appropriations from the War Department (my wife) to buy "another" handgun. I'm debateing between a Kimber Warrior and a SIG P-220.
Thoughts?


42 posted on 10/22/2005 9:36:54 PM PDT by Rocky Mountain High
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To: Paleo Conservative

Can't see a damned thing in there!


43 posted on 10/22/2005 9:53:45 PM PDT by dljordan
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To: strategofr

--IIRC, it was just that they were used to the technique seen on TV of "point-in-the-general-direction" and squirt off a full clip---


44 posted on 10/23/2005 6:00:18 AM PDT by rellimpank (urbanites don' t understand the cultural deprivation of not being raised on a farm:NRABenefactor)
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To: BikerTrash
---hearkening back to Hatcher's Notebook again, the angle to achieve maximum range with typical small arms ammo (he was speaking of the .30-'06 and standard military-"ball" ammo) is 30 degrees. I believe you are right on the retained energy and of course it is sufficient to be lethal---
45 posted on 10/23/2005 6:05:50 AM PDT by rellimpank (urbanites don' t understand the cultural deprivation of not being raised on a farm:NRABenefactor)
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To: rellimpank
...30 degrees.

Yeah, that's right. Max trajectory is less than 45 degrees. I dunno what I was thinkin'.

...sufficient to be lethal...

Yup.

Thanks.

46 posted on 10/23/2005 10:03:46 AM PDT by BikerTrash (Enough already with the carnival freak show...bring back COOL!)
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To: rasblue

Wrong. Unless you factor in tumble as a portion of air resistance...


47 posted on 10/23/2005 1:46:09 PM PDT by msf92497 (The most dangerous place to be is in a "mothers" womb.)
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To: BikerTrash
I think maximum trajectory for a rifle round was computed at 32 degrees (the assumed perfect trajectory of 45 degrees not being operable due to wind resistance).

Another figure I found indicated a handgun bullet would probably come straight down at 159 MPH, about 20% of muzzle velocity.

Not sure what energy figures are on the end of a maximum trajectory flight. I'll post if I find them.

48 posted on 10/23/2005 11:33:11 PM PDT by BushMeister ("We are a nation that has a government - not the other way around." --Ronald Reagan)
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To: inquest

that's right they're totally cursed. they have an abundance of rifles and assault guns but not an equal amount of pistols. i suffer from the same curse, 8 long guns, 4 pistols. i'll break the curse when i get 4 more pistols.


49 posted on 10/24/2005 7:38:48 AM PDT by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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To: King Prout

Not likely, no magazine in the weapon .


50 posted on 10/24/2005 4:36:59 PM PDT by Nebr FAL owner (.308 reach out & thump someone .50 cal.Browning Machine gun reach out & crush someone)
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