Posted on 10/22/2005 5:05:47 PM PDT by strategofr
One interesting thing Americans discovered, while training Iraqi troops, is that most Iraqi men tend to be very familiar with firearms, especially the Russian AK-series. The country is cursed with an abundance of rifles and assault guns.
In some regions, these weapons are so common that even boys of 12 or so may have one. One would think that this would make training them relatively easy, but in fact it doesn’t. While Iraqi recruits tend to know a lot about firearms, even to the extent that they can maintain them reasonably well, they don’t know a thing about weapons safety.
Consider the Arab custom of firing their weapons into the air on happy occasions (they are called “joy bullets” in Arabic), often with deadly consequences. When someone is killed or injured by the bullets that, inevitably come back to earth, the injury is shrugged off, or blamed on a handy enemy (Palestinians blame Israelis, some Iraqis blame any armed foreigners in the vicinity, or nearby Iraqis they don't get along with).
Thus, American trainers quickly learned that safety training is very important for Iraqi recruits. Indeed, it was found that gun safety training needed far more emphasis for Iraqi troops than for Americans, who live in a culture of safety. Resistance to safety training by Iraqi recruits is pretty high, at least initially.
But once they understand the purpose, they become surprisingly good students, perhaps because they all know someone who lost a goat or a family member to a bullet that was simply obeying the law of gravity. The presence of Egyptian or Jordanian trainers is particularly helpful in accelerating the process of getting Iraqi recruits to accept firearms safety; as brother Arabs and Moslems. In this case there’s less resistance to an “infidel” notion of being careful while using assault rifles.
First lesson I learned about guns. "Don't point that damn thing at anything or anyone you don't intend to shoot"! The lesson was reinforced if need be with physical reminders.
"Cursed"?
My dad talk me about firearm safety when I was growing up. I became much more safe after attending a course at Front Sight Firearm Training Institute. I would recommend anyone who owns a gun take a course there. They will only train you if you have a clean background though.
while this is a good lesson its not really too relevent in the situation...actually, these people are pointing at what they want to shoot, the sky. They don't quite understand that they will come down again.
By the way, I think they do understand the physics of it. It's like any stupid thing people do anywhere. Once you grab them by the shoulders and say "Yo! Stupido!", they start to get it, as the article illustrates.
*sigh*
DA RULES:
1. ALL guns are ALWAYS loaded - even if you just visually confirmed that it isn't, it still is.
2. Never point a gun at anything you'd mind blowing a hole in. In general, that means keep it pointed down and front, away from all living things.
3. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to fire - that means keep it out of the trigger-guard entirely until you are fixing to shoot.
4. Be sure of your target, what is between you and your target, and what is behind your target
5. Stand properly, breathe properly, AIM properly, and squeeze the trigger - let the BANG surprise you
gee... not so difficult
perhaps because they all know someone who lost a goat or a family member to a bullet ...
or perhaps a goat who WAS a family member...
--recalling reading that one of the problems in training Afgans was their reluctance to align the sights of the weapon, I wonder if this is true of Iraqis as well?
I wonder how much kinetic energy a round from an AK has, after being fired straight up??? Probably would be lethal...
(My source is Hatchers Notebook)---
Thanks! Urban legends...sheesh...
--the "straight up" is the key part--the stuff that does the damage in Detroit, etc., New Years Eve isn't fired straight up and remains lethal---
Two years ago, one of my co-workers was out rabbit hunting with a 410 shotgun. He didn't have the safety on, and as he was climbing over a fence, he pulled the trigger, hitting himself in the foot. Fortunately, it was only a 410, so the shell wasn't very large, and the range was less than eighteen inches, so the shot didn't have much of a chance to disperse before hitting him, creating a relatively small hole instead of a large one. The injury still required eighteen plus days in the hospital, three rounds of surgery, and continuing physical therapy.
*kaff*
"in general"
*sigh*
if only it had gone off...
>I wonder how much kinetic energy a round from an AK has, >after being fired straight up??? Probably would be lethal..
Same velocity as when it left the barrel minus air resistance. First Year Newtonian Physics.
not that simple
"point-first and spinning" is a lot more dangerous than is "butt-first and tumbling"
How about a round musket ball?
No. Same velocity as when it left the barrel minus air resistance and gravity until it stops. Then it does a U-turn and gravity pulls it down, (32 fps squared, if I recall correctly, minus air resistance).
Better to get hit with a falling bullet than a hail stone that weighs more than the bullet. Not lethal way more than probably.
A little 'value added' commentary just to let you know
how the author really feels....
imo
smoothbore or rifled?
if rifled, what caliber, grainage, mv, and twist?
it all matters.
As far as teaching kids goes, they see things different. Some rules like no bad language when smashing your thumb, or don't break the speed limit are perceived by kids as "OK" to break "occasionally".{ Because they see adults doing this.}
I try to teach that firearm rules are in the class of rules that you NEVER break, like hitting or cheating on your spouse or stealing, etc.
Uh....no.
This is just low hanging fruit ...
I am often asked questions about falling bullets; i.e., “How dangerous can a falling bullet be?” The model I use to answer any falling bullet question is as follows: Will a bullet, such as a 5.56 x 45mm (.223 Remington), if fired at a very high angle (straight up), return to Earth with enough velocity and striking energy to inflict a significant wound?
The military standard for disabling energy, or the amount of energy necessary to produce a casualty, is 58 ft lbs, at a striking velocity of 400 fps. Bullets returning from being fired upward, whether they start their return trip from 2,000 feet, 10,000 feet, or ten miles, will all come back to Earth with the same speed (terminal velocity). Terminal velocity depends on the weight of the bullet and, to a certain extent, on its shape. A 55-grain 5.56 x 45mm bullet leaves the muzzle at roughly 3200 fps and, if fired straight up, will slow down until it finally stops about 9,000 feet above the Earth; then it starts to fall. If it falls point down (not likely) it will return to Earth with a striking velocity of approximately 290 fps, and a striking energy of nine foot pounds or less. If it fell any other way than point down, its fall would be slower and its striking energy less.
The U.S. Army has conducted exhaustive experiments on the subject of falling bullets and has concluded that falling bullets cannot be relied upon to produce dangerous wounds. Guns are usually fired at only moderate elevation – 30º would be considered a high angle by most people. The bullet will then strike with some speed with which it was fired, with a much higher velocity than that of merely a falling bullet. Falling bullets do not kill, only those fired at moderate degrees of elevation will produce significant wounds.
About the Author: Larry J. Nichols is the Burbank, California, Police Department Range Master. He has over 25 years of experience as a firearms instructor; is President of the California Rangemasters Association; and is a U.S.M.C. Vietnam combat veteran. He is also a recognized expert witness on firearms and training issues.
Sounds more like a blessing to me...but hey...thats just me.
Mostly good advice. I take some exception to #8 and #2.
"or perhaps a goat who WAS a family member."
LOL!
# 3 was my bad.......
"Afgans was their reluctance to align the sights of the
weapon"
Recall why?
"The injury still required eighteen plus days in the hospital, three rounds of surgery, and continuing physical therapy."
Yeah. A "minor" gunshot wound isn't so minor---especially in the foot.
funny!
I have heard that a projectile fired at maximum trajectory strikes the ground at around 30 to 40 percent of muzzle velocity. Would you know if this is so?
An AK bullet (7.62 x 39mm), which usually weighs twice as much (at 125 grains or so) as an M-16 round (the US mil uses mostly 62-grain 5.56mm rounds in M-16s/M4s, actually, not 55 grain) will reach the earth with more energy than a 5.56mm bullet, due to its greater weight. But even if an AK-47 round lands with 4X the energy of a 5.56mm bullet, it probably won't do more than cause a modest wound, which should certainly be survivable.
I saw a much more in-depth article than the one I posted above. If I can find it, I'll post it.
Just wanted to add that a handgun round might actually strike the earth at something like 30%-40% of its muzzle velocity, as you suggest. After all, a handgun bullet typically exits the barrel at around 1,000 FPS. If they land at 300FPS, that's 30% of muzzle velocity.
But thanks anyway!
Anyone here own a SIG P-220? I've just been granted appropriations from the War Department (my wife) to buy "another" handgun. I'm debateing between a Kimber Warrior and a SIG P-220.
Thoughts?
Can't see a damned thing in there!
--IIRC, it was just that they were used to the technique seen on TV of "point-in-the-general-direction" and squirt off a full clip---
Yeah, that's right. Max trajectory is less than 45 degrees. I dunno what I was thinkin'.
...sufficient to be lethal...
Yup.
Thanks.
Wrong. Unless you factor in tumble as a portion of air resistance...
Another figure I found indicated a handgun bullet would probably come straight down at 159 MPH, about 20% of muzzle velocity.
Not sure what energy figures are on the end of a maximum trajectory flight. I'll post if I find them.
that's right they're totally cursed. they have an abundance of rifles and assault guns but not an equal amount of pistols. i suffer from the same curse, 8 long guns, 4 pistols. i'll break the curse when i get 4 more pistols.
Not likely, no magazine in the weapon .
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