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Atheists File Suit Against UHP Memorial Crosses
ABC 4 in Utah ^ | 12/1/2005 | ABC 4

Posted on 12/01/2005 7:13:41 AM PST by Andyman

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To: Andyman
Richard Andrews said, "I feel the same way a Jew might feel if you put a state symbol on a swastika"

And will you shrivel up and go away if someone sprinkled holy water on you too?

Sheesh.

51 posted on 12/01/2005 7:58:33 AM PST by kstewskis ("Thank you ladies and gentlemen, you've been a wonderful audience" ...Rocky Rhodes)
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To: mc6809e
The state has no right to the free exercise of religion. That would be the same as establishing religion which is prohibited by the first amendment

The State using a cross to honor Christians who gave their life in service to that State is in no way 'establishing a religion'.

If you believe that it does, I would sincerely like you to explain that to me. You will be graded on brevity.

52 posted on 12/01/2005 8:10:47 AM PST by SCALEMAN
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To: atomicpossum
Why not sue Arlington Cemetery?

I am sure that is on the agenda.

53 posted on 12/01/2005 8:17:02 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: mc6809e

"The state has no right to the free exercise of religion. That would be the same as establishing religion which is prohibited by the first amendment."


In all of these anti-religion cases, the state is not exercising religion, merely acknowledging it. There is a difference. Look the words up yourself.


54 posted on 12/01/2005 8:20:01 AM PST by fightnback
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To: SCALEMAN
I have concluded that the ones who protest don't want to be reminded that if they are wrong, then they made a huge mistake in judgement.

Speaking of judgement... That's what they know, deep down, is coming... That's what they seek in vain to stamp out of their own consciences.

55 posted on 12/01/2005 8:23:48 AM PST by Lexinom
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To: mc6809e

In what ways do Christians use the state to bully non-Christians. Start giving some examples.


56 posted on 12/01/2005 8:24:50 AM PST by Madeleine Ward
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To: Andyman

>> Richard Andrews said, "I feel the same way a Jew might feel if you put a state symbol on a swastika" <<

Ummm... checking my score card. Atheist Russians slaughter 30 million Christians; Atheist Chinese slaughter 100 million Bhuddists, etc.; Atheist Germans slaughter 20 million Christans and 10 million Jews... I'd compare it more to Nazis having to bear with a state symbol on a Star of David.


57 posted on 12/01/2005 8:26:00 AM PST by dangus
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To: atomicpossum

Give them a chance.


58 posted on 12/01/2005 8:28:45 AM PST by AZ_Cowboy ("Be ever vigilant, for you know not when the master is coming")
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Comment #59 Removed by Moderator

To: Edgerunner
Why should they be so upset if they are so sure that GOD doesn't exist?

I think their slip is showing.

Also, their true agenda.

60 posted on 12/01/2005 8:29:20 AM PST by VeniVidiVici (What? Me worry?)
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To: dangus

Don't forget the humanistic/atheistic influences in this nation alone which has resulted in the slaughter of 45 million babies.


61 posted on 12/01/2005 8:29:52 AM PST by Lexinom
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To: Semper Paratus

LOL


62 posted on 12/01/2005 8:30:45 AM PST by Texans
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To: dangus
Atheist Germans slaughter 20 million Christans and 10 million Jews...

Most Germans during the period 1933-1945 were most certainly not atheists. Even now, in Germany, you're registered by default in a religion and have to go to some lengths to convince them you're an atheist and should not be paying the Church tax.

63 posted on 12/01/2005 8:32:49 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: All

We have a winner! I knew someone would defend these pantywaist whackos sooner or later.


64 posted on 12/01/2005 8:34:06 AM PST by AZ_Cowboy ("Be ever vigilant, for you know not when the master is coming")
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Comment #65 Removed by Moderator

To: Semper Paratus

I say the symbol should be determined by the families of each of the troopers. If they were Christian, a cross, any other religion or no religion, whatever symbol the FAMILY finds appropriate.


66 posted on 12/01/2005 8:37:07 AM PST by Muzzle_em (I'm an island awash in a sea of stupidity)
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To: VeniVidiVici

As always, they lay it bare for all to see.


67 posted on 12/01/2005 8:39:11 AM PST by AZ_Cowboy ("Be ever vigilant, for you know not when the master is coming")
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Comment #68 Removed by Moderator

To: Morris_Hattrick

>> While I agree with you on the idiocy of Mr. Andrews' statement, as a point of fact, the National Socialists in Germany were not atheists. <<

I think an anti-Christian nihilist fits reasonably in the broader term, "atheist." I know many atheists dispute that definition, but I think such dispute fits into the fallacy, "No-one in my group can do anything wrong, because if they do something wrong, they are not in my group." It's akin to Protestants disavowing the Christianity of the Crusaders. (Although the Crusaders saved Christianity, but I won't get into that argument.)

I also recognize that atheists have tried to argue that Hitler was a Christian. It's plain he tried to convince ignorant, nominal Christians that his ideology had commonality with theirs, but this would be like calling Mohammed a Jew. Hitler's anti-Christian comments are numerous enough, as well as comments stating the necessity for such deceptions, that they can be easily dismissed.


69 posted on 12/01/2005 8:45:10 AM PST by dangus
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To: Right Wing Professor

70 posted on 12/01/2005 8:46:59 AM PST by Sam's Army ("Terrorism is a matter for the police" MurryMom 11/28/05)
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To: mc6809e

I suggest Christians stop using the state to bully non-Christians.

This is the United States, not Iran.

Why is it you do not answer anyone questioning your obvious BS? At last count 5 of us have called you on this and you seem to have run away.


71 posted on 12/01/2005 8:47:10 AM PST by Allosaurs_r_us (I can't use the cell phone in the car. I have to keep my hands free for making obscene gestures)
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To: Andyman

good grief.


72 posted on 12/01/2005 8:47:58 AM PST by commonguymd (My impatience is far more advanced than any known technology.)
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To: mc6809e
What part of "or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" do these people not understand?

You're confused. The state has no right to the free exercise of religion. That would be the same as establishing religion which is prohibited by the first amendment.

Is the State imposing a cross against the wishes of the family?

No, it is not.

Your statement is therefore a non sequitur.

You are a prime example of someone that has twisted the original intent and meaning of the Constitution into something that the Drafters would have considered totally ridiculous.

In the XVIII Century, an example of an "establishment of religion" was the fact that Royal Navy officers were required to swear an oath in support of the Church of England and the fact that the Church of England, but no other Church, was financed by State taxes. Catholics in Britain were denied full citizenship rights solely by the virtue of their religion.......Thus the need for such a thing as the Catholic Emancipation Act which was put through Parliament in 1829.

Such practices are what what the Drafters of the First Amendment intended to abolish with the words:

"....shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...."

Individuals such as yourself have now perverted those words to mean that the State must not tolerate any religious expression within the public domain.

If that were the case, then the Chaplain Corps of the U.S. Armed Forces would clearly be unconstitutional.

If the State allows a cross memorial for Officer O'Reilly, a Star of David memorial for Officer Goldberg, a Crescent memorial for Officer Ali, a Tree of Life memorial for Officer Treehugger and a secular memorial for Officer Atheist, then that is exactly what the Drafters of the First Amendment intended.

Your attempts to outlaw religious symbols on public property as an expression of the faith of individual citizens is exactly what the First Amendment prohibited in the "free exercise" clause.

73 posted on 12/01/2005 8:48:22 AM PST by Polybius
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To: Right Wing Professor

>> Most Germans during the period 1933-1945 were most certainly not atheists. <<

Didn't suggest most Germans *were* atheist. Just like most Russians weren't. I was referring to the leadership. See my previous post about that issue.

>> Even now, in Germany, you're registered by default in a religion and have to go to some lengths to convince them you're an atheist and should not be paying the Church tax. <<

Even if you've never been baptised? How do they decide which religion to assign you to?


74 posted on 12/01/2005 8:48:43 AM PST by dangus
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To: dangus
Didn't suggest most Germans *were* atheist. Just like most Russians weren't. I was referring to the leadership. See my previous post about that issue.

HItler was a Catholic. He never renounced it, and was never excommunicated.

Even if you've never been baptised? How do they decide which religion to assign you to?

I think they decide from the religion your family had. When I lived there, several of the people in my research group described the considerable lengths they had to go to, to convince the authorities they were in fact atheists.

75 posted on 12/01/2005 8:51:41 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: Sam's Army

Bristish propaganda poster from 1942 or so. Can you locate the actual statement? I can't.


76 posted on 12/01/2005 8:56:14 AM PST by Right Wing Professor
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To: nicmarlo

It will be interesting to see if the people fight back...


77 posted on 12/01/2005 8:56:34 AM PST by Borax Queen
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Comment #78 Removed by Moderator

To: Andyman
Richard Andrews said, "I feel the same way a Jew might feel if you put a state symbol on a swastika"

These militant atheists idiots make me sick and piss me the hell off. I'm so sick and damned tired of their crap and their fagget buddies crap being shovelled down my throat on a daily bases. It's not making me more tolerant, it's pissing me off to no end. I have a feeling its doing the same thing to a lot of people and the back lash will be a mother.

79 posted on 12/01/2005 10:15:22 AM PST by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: trebb

How about a rotting turkey leg in honor of the atheists?


80 posted on 12/01/2005 10:16:10 AM PST by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: Edgerunner

Because half the "athiests" are really God haters and deniers and like the faggots they need large numbers to back their own weak faiths and find strength.


81 posted on 12/01/2005 10:17:25 AM PST by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: atomicpossum
Why not sue Arlington Cemetery?

Don't doubt for a second that that's not on their list too.

82 posted on 12/01/2005 10:18:17 AM PST by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: jb6

Please tone it down some

Thanks


83 posted on 12/01/2005 10:31:02 AM PST by Sidebar Moderator
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To: Sidebar Moderator

Sorry. Stressed out today.


84 posted on 12/01/2005 10:32:46 AM PST by jb6 (The Atheist/Pagan mind, a quandary wrapped in egoism and served with a side order of self importance)
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To: Right Wing Professor
HItler was a Catholic. He never renounced it, and was never excommunicated.

As an adult, Hitler specifically rejected the Catholic Church, as well as Christianity in general. He described himself as "a complete pagan".

The book Hitler's Secret Conversations: 1941-1944, published by Farrar, Straus and Young, Inc. (1953), contains definitive proof of Hitler's real views. The book was published in Britain under the title, Hitler's Table Talk: 1941-1944, which title was used for the Oxford University Press paperback edition in the United States.

All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:

Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:

National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)

10th October, 1941, midday:

Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)

14th October, 1941, midday:

The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity [is] the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)

19th October, 1941, night:

The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.

21st October, 1941, midday:

Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St. Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St. Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)

13th December, 1941, midnight:

Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... [here he insults people who believe transubstantiation] .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)

14th December, 1941, midday:

Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)

9th April, 1942, dinner:

There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)

27th February, 1942, midday:

It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold its demise." (p 278)

The conference of German bishops excommunicated all Nazis in 1930, and in the 1932 elections forbade Catholics to vote for a Nazi. By being the leader of the Nazi party, Hitler had already put himself outside of the Church.

Finally, it should be noted that the whole purpose of excommunication is to help the sinner recognize the enormity of his sins, so he will seek forgiveness. As St. Paul wrote: "If any one refuses to obey our word by this letter, note that man, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed. Do not look on him as an enemy, but warn him as a brother." (2 Thes 3:14-15). Someone like Hitler, who did not believe in the truth of Christianity, would simply shrug it off.

85 posted on 12/01/2005 11:09:12 AM PST by Andyman ("Where are the other nine?" Luke 17:11-19)
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To: Mr. Keys

the atheists need to just line up in front of a machine gun...


86 posted on 12/01/2005 11:11:49 AM PST by Schwaeky (Save American jobs--break the back of the UAW and the AFL-CIO...)
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To: Right Wing Professor

>> Hitler was a Catholic. He never renounced it, and was never excommunicated. <<

This sounds like renouncing to me, how about you?:

"National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things."

Sounds pretty atheistic, too.

As for his excommunication, that statement represents a grace misunderstanding of excommunication. 5 Billion people in the world are non-Catholics, and only a handful have ever been formally excommunicated. The prior statement is excommunication laetae sentiae (sp?): He excommunicated himself in making the statement. Personal excommunication is for when the person has made a unique separation from the church not otherwise covered by other excommunications and appears to labor under the misconception that they are remaining faithful Catholics. There is no reason to issue a formal excommunication for Adolph Hitler.

How bad is the MSM's lying about the Church's tolerance of Hitler? When I was in Boston (1999), the Boston Globe published on the fromt page an article declaring that the Catholic Church had never condemned Fascism. On the back page was a feature, "60 Years Ago Today in The Boston Globe," showing the 1939 Boston Globe. And the main story, screaming across the top of that newspaper? "Pope Condemns Twin Horrors of Communism, Fascism." The two stories appeared on the very same physical sheet of paper!


87 posted on 12/01/2005 11:12:38 AM PST by dangus
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To: July 4th

The atheists suggest the association could honor the troopers with a non-denominational symbol.

I suggest that the atheists shut the hell up.""

There truly is no end to the mental sickness of these activists.

The definition of "the separation of church and state" has been so convoluted that it now can be applied to almost anything........
Can we put a bounty on them???


88 posted on 12/01/2005 11:22:02 AM PST by ridesthemiles (ridesthemiles)
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To: atomicpossum

That's what its leading up to...you watch!


89 posted on 12/01/2005 11:25:22 AM PST by mdmathis6 ("It was not for nothing that you were named Ransom" from CS LEWIS' Perelandra!)
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To: Morris_Hattrick

>> But being an "anti-Christian nihilist," (which I think is an ahistoric view of Nazi religious philosophy) does not establish that such a person is an atheist. One, for example, could be an anti-Christian nihilist and yet believe in any number of religions and deities. <<

By definition, a nihilist does not believe in the god of any religion. If I can drive a distinction between atheism and nihilism, it would be that an atheist believes that there are zero gods, and a nihilist does not believe in the concept of a God. Some nihilist might consider that atheism has made a god out of science and reason.

>> Parts of it were occultish and pagan (although not a seriously large part), many (as in any society) were agnostic, atheists, or non-practicing, but the vast majority of party members at the time continued to practice their religion without the type of political disapproval one would expect had the party been atheistic. <<

A lie created by the left-wing, God-hating media. As I just related in another comment, the Boston Globe had, on the same day, on the same physical sheet of paper, a front-page, above-the-fold headline that the Pope had never condemned Nazism, and a back-page retrospective look at the 1939 Boston Globe, featuring an image a papal condemnation of Nazism, scrawled across the top of the the 1939 paper.

The Nazis went out of there way to create images showing acceptance by church authities, such as the infamous photo of German bishops marching in a Nazi parade. The Nazis, of course, downplayed the rejection of such appointments by Rome; the harsh, universal criticisms; the thousands of Catholic martyrs. In essence, the media now accepts this false Nazi propaganda. Which Nazi leaders were communicants, of Lutheranism or of Catholicism?


90 posted on 12/01/2005 11:29:38 AM PST by dangus
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Comment #91 Removed by Moderator

To: Edgerunner

"Why should they be so upset if they are so sure that GOD doesn't exist?"

Because they all secretly fear that when they die they'll be in for one HELL of a surprise.


92 posted on 12/01/2005 11:36:47 AM PST by PeterFinn (The Holocaust was perfectly legal.)
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Comment #93 Removed by Moderator

To: fightnback

Yes, and there was a time when atheists fed Christians to the lions...And I don't even talk about what the Jews are doing to the Muslims!


94 posted on 12/01/2005 11:55:22 AM PST by gman992
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To: Andyman

Do atheists swear on a bible when they tesify in court?


95 posted on 12/01/2005 11:56:51 AM PST by floozy22
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Comment #96 Removed by Moderator

Comment #97 Removed by Moderator

To: floozy22
Do atheists swear on a bible when they tesify in court?

I think they swear at it.

98 posted on 12/01/2005 12:23:21 PM PST by atomicpossum (Replies should be as pedantic as possible. I love that so much.)
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Comment #99 Removed by Moderator

To: Morris_Hattrick
Go to Arlington cemetery and see the different denominations of grave markers...
100 posted on 12/01/2005 12:28:03 PM PST by Edgerunner (Proud to be an infidel)
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