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Citizen MD [American Medical Association op-ed against Intelligent Design]
American Medical Association ^ | 12/02/2005 | Paul Costello

Posted on 12/03/2005 6:18:54 AM PST by Right Wing Professor

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To: JudgemAll
Darwinists have only themselves to blame for the scientific establisment's entitlement mentality buffonery

The buffoons are the ignoramuses strolling around museums lying to kids that the history of the world is 5,000 years long, that living things do not evolve, and that there is no evidence when there is massive physical proof. It is really quite sad. I myself believe and trust in God, but I also know evolution is a fact, and am not threatened by it. The genius and beauty of it makes me awe our Creator even more.

I think ID proponents are misguided. It is the SOCIAL Darwinists who are the enemy. The abortionists, the euthanists, the "animal rights" activists and fascist environmentalists. That is the real threat. Not Charles Darwin. Not the Galapogos. Not evolution.

101 posted on 12/03/2005 11:30:45 AM PST by montag813
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To: Right Wing Professor
re we trapped in a new period of history when science, once again, is in for the fight of its life?

It seems so. This absurd "battle" recalls the Trial of Galileo. When the Church endorsed Ptolemaic nonsense over the truth, the great decline of the Catholic world began, and the subsequent rise of the Protestant Northern Europe. If we let people who reject science win again, it will be the United States which suffers this time.

102 posted on 12/03/2005 11:34:58 AM PST by montag813
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To: CarolinaGuitarman

I know Ruse's honesty is an embarrassment to you - but what can I say? LOL


103 posted on 12/03/2005 11:39:51 AM PST by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: b_sharp
"Rather changes the meaning of your quote."

The quote accurately reflects what Ruse believes. Your protest is just a reflection of your embarrassment at his honesty. LOL

104 posted on 12/03/2005 11:44:15 AM PST by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: montag813
re: If we let people who reject science win again, it will be the United States which suffers this time.)))

Grandiose.

Doubting the overreaching claims of evo will bring about the end of the world? Maybe as you know it. It might bring about the end of some grants--there's a lot of science, probably most, that can make use of evo as a model and not buy in at all to the grander claims of evos.

Evo as a model is vital. As anything else? Just a Nat'l Geo pastime. Like cosmology, archeology, paleontolgy--interesting, but ultimately so speculative because it is unaccountable. The real scientist is accountable--if he's creating a new med, he might kill people. That keeps him from making ridiculous claims and daydreaming through beautfiul artists' renderings of the dinosaur world. We can't really afford all the daydreamers, anyway--the accountable science is expensive enough.

105 posted on 12/03/2005 11:47:59 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: Matchett-PI
"I know Ruse's honesty is an embarrassment to you - but what can I say? LOL"

I know your dishonesty is no embarrassment to you, but what can I say? Especially the way you mangled Ruse's quote. :)

Now, in what way is Darwin challenging Locke's metaphysics? What is the significance of the Darwin quote you like to post?

There IS a point to it, right? Spell it out, in your own words. If you can. lol
106 posted on 12/03/2005 11:48:07 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Right Wing Professor

I am not advocating the following, just throwing it out for your input

If things get worse...
What if a fair number of science supporting conservatives were to join their local democratic party and form "Democrats for a sane fiscal policy" or some such. Run a candidate or two. Ally with the local Democrats for Life (they really exist and are quite vocal, but they are not just pro-life, they are anti-war, so it would depend on the international situation)

IOW...coopt the democratic party to save science. Sneak conservative values in one at a time or return to supporting Republicans as soon as the worst of the attack on science is over.


107 posted on 12/03/2005 11:51:40 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: JudgemAll
An absolute ridiculous statement of the "entitled" scientists to tell us.

So let me get this straight.

Scientists who work hard, research, and publish on evolution (about 50,000 peer-reviewed papers in the last decade alone) are "entitled".

But ID proponents, who do no research, do not work, and have published ZERO during that same decade, are somehow justified???

Yeah, right /sarc.

I have a different perspective. Scientists who work hard, conduct research, and publish hare true scientists. And IDers who produce nothing in 10 years, but seem to pull a scam where they can still get themselves funded, are, by definition, scam artists (or feather merchants or snake-oil salesmen).

108 posted on 12/03/2005 11:51:43 AM PST by 2ndreconmarine (Horse feces (929 citations) vs ID (0 citations) and horse feces wins!!!!!)
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To: Matchett-PI
""Origin of man now proved. -- Metaphysics must flourish. - he who understands baboon would do more toward Metaphysics than Locke." - Darwin, Notebook M, August 16, 1838

Found another one.

This quote was taken from an area in Darwin's Notebook M where he was discussing an evolutionary approach to what has become the cognitive sciences. It is not a reference to the ToE in general as is implied by this quote mine.

109 posted on 12/03/2005 11:52:22 AM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: From many - one.

Wow--gotta save your post for future ref! Placemark...


110 posted on 12/03/2005 11:53:38 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: Mamzelle

Baby Fae.


111 posted on 12/03/2005 11:54:12 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: b_sharp; Matchett-PI
"This quote was taken from an area in Darwin's Notebook M where he was discussing an evolutionary approach to what has become the cognitive sciences. It is not a reference to the ToE in general as is implied by this quote mine."

She knows this, it has all been explained to her. She just doesn't feel compelled to be honest about it.
112 posted on 12/03/2005 11:55:58 AM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: CarolinaGuitarman
You had it spelled out for you in post #71. Stop trying to make me responsible for your inability to comprehend it. :)
113 posted on 12/03/2005 11:57:34 AM PST by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: From many - one.
What are you talking about? Baby Fae link Why do you keep bringing it up?
114 posted on 12/03/2005 11:58:27 AM PST by Mamzelle
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To: Mamzelle

Coopting is not new..but you have to keep your principles when you do it.

I am very opposed to a new middle ages scenario developing

If anything the anti-scientists are more like Marxists thany anything else we've seen recently...think Mao's flowers blooming and the overthrow of the educated in Stalin's Russia.


115 posted on 12/03/2005 11:59:46 AM PST by From many - one.
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To: Mamzelle

Because that's what happens when your doctor does not believe in evolution.


116 posted on 12/03/2005 12:01:17 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: JCEccles
Being blinded by their materialist worldview, evolutionists cannot explain the genesis of information or intelligence let alone acknowledge the all-important role that these immaterial factors play in the development of life.

Evolution, like all of science is incomplete. That is why we continue to work on it. But it is typical creationist ignorence to state: " blinded by their materialist worldview". The arrogance is astounding. By what omniscience do you think you can you possible state so categorically what scientists think? Can you read minds? What basis do you have other than your sheer arrogance?

Wholly bereft of any argument based in science evolutionists are forced to resort to personally attacking the people who raise such important questions.

Nonsense again. You couldn't possibly recognize science, so you can you state that evolution is bereft of it?? MOreover, we don't attack the people who raise important questions. Indeed, when ID was first proposed, it was not attacked. That was 10 years ago. But after 10 years, ID has ceased to be a working hypothesis. It is time for results. What are the results of ID?? How many published papers to document their research and investigations?? Absolutely ZERO. Nothing, Nada. So, after 10 years we correctly attack ID because it has failed. The IDers had their chance. After 10 years they have nothing to show for it. We don't attack those who raise questions. We do attack those charlatans who produce nothing in 10 years except criticism.

You and your fellow evolutionists are in trouble, RWP, because your theory sucks.

This is your educated opinion, I suppose. And your alternative??? ID, whose total contribution to science is zero??? Oh yeah, that's an improvement.

117 posted on 12/03/2005 12:03:12 PM PST by 2ndreconmarine (Horse feces (929 citations) vs ID (0 citations) and horse feces wins!!!!!)
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To: JCEccles; Right Wing Professor
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Let's see, RWP is an actual working scientist who actually produces science results and publishes them.

And you are?

But somehow he should be ashamed???

One of my favorite conservative authors is Thomas Sowell. And Dr. Sowell's central point quite often is that our society is easily divided into those who produce things of value and those who criticise them for doing it, but produce nothing. It's a fair definition of why many are conservative... we actually produce.

It's pretty clear what RWP produces in science.

It's pretty clear that you can criticize. Now, what do you produce??

118 posted on 12/03/2005 12:06:59 PM PST by 2ndreconmarine (Horse feces (929 citations) vs ID (0 citations) and horse feces wins!!!!!)
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To: From many - one.
Huh--wonder why that link stopped working? I checked it. I did some more searches, and find that Baby Fae is indeed some kind of evo poster child.

I might point out that the whole idea of using any kind of animal as transplant tissue in the early eighties hardly portends a Terrible World That Evos Don't Run.

'Twas ego killed the child.

119 posted on 12/03/2005 12:06:59 PM PST by Mamzelle
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To: Matchett-PI

"You had it spelled out for you in post #71. Stop trying to make me responsible for your inability to comprehend it. :)"

No, you never explained it. Please do so, in YOUR words. What was Darwin challenging in Locke's metaphysics? And what is the *gotcha!* about the quote from Darwin?

Unless of course, you are incapable of explaining it in your words. :)


120 posted on 12/03/2005 12:08:14 PM PST by CarolinaGuitarman ("There is a grandeur in this view of life...")
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To: Mamzelle

No, Baby Fae is not a poster child for anything. Baby Fae is a tragedy.

As for ego...evolution said the material would not be compatible, Biblical literalism dismissed the evidence.


121 posted on 12/03/2005 12:13:15 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: From many - one.
And from one ambitious surgeon who wanted to experiment, the whole scientific world will collapse!

Will you be joining the Democrats soon to stave off this calamity?

122 posted on 12/03/2005 12:17:29 PM PST by Mamzelle
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To: From many - one.
If anything the anti-scientists are more like Marxists thany anything else we've seen recently...think Mao's flowers blooming and the overthrow of the educated in Stalin's Russia.

And Hitler's policies ran a few brilliant scientists out of Germany just before an important war (just when he needed them the most).

123 posted on 12/03/2005 12:19:16 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Stultis
If this is so then why are those who would expose such "grave weaknesses" directing 99.99% of their effort toward pushing the debate in front of high school students, and into other such popular and political venues where there can be no possible decisive result; and only 0.01% of their effort toward making their case before the professional scientific community, for instance with original scientific research?

Don't you realize how utterly bizarre and ahistorical the behavior of antievolutionists is in this respect? No group of scientists who sincerely believed they possessed a superior new theory, or a compelling refutation of an existing theory, would ever, or have ever, behaved in this way.

A scientist pushing a new, fringe, controversial, etc, idea will seek to recruit working scientists, or at least advanced science students likely to soon begin a research career, who can help develop and advance his ideas; NOT high school students, or even college students taking intro-biology to fulfill a course requirement, who can contribute nothing!

A scientist who sincerely believes that his new ideas have real scientific merit wants other scientists in the end to notice, consider and test those ideas. Therefore such a scientist will NEVER attempt to force adoption of his ideas in secondary school and introductory curricula, knowing this can only INCREASE hostility toward them in the scientific community, as it will appear to be an attempted "end run" around the process of peer review.

Well said!!!!!!

124 posted on 12/03/2005 12:31:01 PM PST by 2ndreconmarine (Horse feces (929 citations) vs ID (0 citations) and horse feces wins!!!!!)
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To: Mamzelle
And from one ambitious surgeon who wanted to experiment, the whole scientific world will collapse!

It was not intended as an experiment you unbelievably ignorant clown!

125 posted on 12/03/2005 12:34:06 PM PST by balrog666 (A myth by any other name is still inane.)
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To: Mamzelle
It's a turf war, pure and simple. Fear. They fear they'll lose the freedom to openly ridicule their own students, fear a loss of prestige, loss of postion--perhaps even loss of money, lest a grant find its way into the ID crowd.

Oh yeah, I'm just shaking in my boots!!! LOL. Some ID'er snake oil salesman with an 8th grade education could really compete with me. This is beyond funny.

Here's why it is really funny. My personal publication record, all by myself, over the last ten years, exceeds all those published on ID by anyone anywhere. The entire scientific output of ID is less than just me. (And my peer review record isn't all that great, I tend to publish more in proceedings).

But these guys are going to take my programs??? Yeah, right.

126 posted on 12/03/2005 12:39:13 PM PST by 2ndreconmarine (Horse feces (929 citations) vs ID (0 citations) and horse feces wins!!!!!)
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To: balrog666

Oh, it was an experiment all right--one they had no business attempting, but it was a different time. Now they do that sort of thing in SKorea... Heart surgeons did a lot of that in the late seventies and early eighties--this was surely a case of overreaching ego. I don't quite know what the evo-keeing is about, though. Would a chimp's organ have done better?


127 posted on 12/03/2005 12:40:36 PM PST by Mamzelle (evogracious#6--you unbelievably ignorant clown!)
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To: Matchett-PI
"The quote accurately reflects what Ruse believes. Your protest is just a reflection of your embarrassment at his honesty. LOL

However, the claim is sometimes, and more plausibly, made that evolutionary theory, along with some other scientific theories, functions as a kind of attitudinal metaphysical system [Ruse 1989]. It is (in my opinion, rightly) thought to influence the kinds of problems and solutions dealt with by science. There is no problem with this, since in order for a discipline to make any progress, the field of possible problems (essentially infinite, to use a malapropism) must be restricted to some set of plausible and viable research options. The theory of evolution as now consensually held acts to narrow the range and limit the duplication required. This is harmless, and is true of any field of science.

Ruse also describes what he calls "metaphysical Darwinism" [Ruse 1992] (as opposed to "scientific Darwinism") which is indeed a metaphysical system akin to a worldview, and which has expressed itself in numerous extra-scientific philosophies, including Spencer's, Teilhard's, and Haeckel's, or even the quasi-mystical views of Julian Huxley. These must be considered separate to the scientific theory, and are often in contradiction to the actual scientific models.

Other than this, the "metaphysic" of evolution by selection is primarily a research-guiding mindset that has been extraordinarily fruitful where no others have been [Hull 1989]. However, as a metaphysic, evolutionary theory is fairly poverty-stricken. This is what should be true of a scientific theory; for the number of conclusions beyond the empirical evidence that can be conjectured is unlimited. Any theory that committed itself to a metaphysical conclusion as a logical inference would be almost certainly false.

Those who need Cosmic Meaning need not fear that any version of evolutionary theory prohibits it; although neither does nor can it support it. Those evolutionists who have either argued in favour of Cosmic Meaning on the basis of evolutionary theory, or have argued that there can be no Cosmic Meaning because things evolve, are both wrong. The conclusions do not follow from the premises, simply because 'is' does not imply 'ought'. John Wilkins

John Wilkins, the author of the above quote, is a Philosopher of Science who has actually read and understood Ruse.

I suspect you have not.

128 posted on 12/03/2005 12:41:50 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: From many - one.
I am not advocating the following, just throwing it out for your input

It might work in a red state. Dems around here are pretty conservative - they have to be. On the other hand, I don't know if I could really bring myself to vote for a Dem. It just seems wrong :-)

I was more interested in targeting the more extreme fundamentalist Republicans. Santorum, for example, isn't fundie, but he's been outspokenly anti-evolution, and he's in trouble anyway. It would be better to target such guys in a primary, though.

129 posted on 12/03/2005 12:45:36 PM PST by Right Wing Professor
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placemark


130 posted on 12/03/2005 12:47:36 PM PST by Mamzelle (evogracious#6--you unbelievably ignorant clown!)
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To: Mamzelle

Don't be silly.


131 posted on 12/03/2005 12:48:21 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: CarolinaGuitarman; Matchett-PI
"She knows this, it has all been explained to her. She just doesn't feel compelled to be honest about it."

Whatever her personal ethics are, it is always useful to show the Lurkers the reality of her posts.

BTW, you are doing a heck of a job.

132 posted on 12/03/2005 12:49:12 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: Matchett-PI
Of course the bottom line is the fact that we wouldn't even be having this "debate" if the people who have the God-given responsibility for their own children's education, were allowed to send their children to the school of their choice (religious, or otherwise).

On that we fully agree. No sarcasm. School vouchers is one of the reasons that I am a conservative.

It is also a central point for another reason. If the schools could be chosen by parents, then we would all care a lot less about what the government and the creationists (IDers) believe. They could all have their fairy tales.

One of the mistakes of creationists / IDers make is that they assume that we (Darwinists) argue so strongly because we are "afraid" that "our theory" might be challenged. But the reason is the same as for you creationists: we are really uncomfortable with some of the things people teach or want to teach our children.

133 posted on 12/03/2005 12:51:48 PM PST by 2ndreconmarine (Horse feces (929 citations) vs ID (0 citations) and horse feces wins!!!!!)
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To: Right Wing Professor

I think you're right on both counts...it would have to be a red state, if at all and targeting the primaries would be a better approach.


134 posted on 12/03/2005 12:53:08 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: From many - one.

Of course you'd have to promote Dems in red states. Blue states are already Democratic.


135 posted on 12/03/2005 12:54:53 PM PST by Mamzelle (evogracious#6--you unbelievably ignorant clown!)
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To: Matchett-PI; CarolinaGuitarman
"You had it spelled out for you in post #71. Stop trying to make me responsible for your inability to comprehend it. :)

The message and the value of post 71 is easily understood. What is hard to understand is your penchant for presenting 'quote mines'.

For those lurkers out there.
A quote mine is a quote taken out of context and presented in such a way that its meaning is changed. The usual purpose is to make the original author appear to be agreeing with the miner. It is a contrived use of the 'Appeal to Authority' logical fallacy.

136 posted on 12/03/2005 12:56:04 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: Right Wing Professor

YEC INTREP


137 posted on 12/03/2005 12:59:43 PM PST by LiteKeeper (Beware the secularization of America)
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To: Coyoteman

Agreed. But he did manage to keep most of the non-Jewish smart folk. Marxism might be called the (temporary) triumph of the Yahoos.


138 posted on 12/03/2005 1:02:17 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: 2ndreconmarine

He prodices unfounded criticism.


139 posted on 12/03/2005 1:05:13 PM PST by furball4paws (The new elixir of life - dehydrated toad urine.)
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To: Right Wing Professor; From many - one.

It wouldn't work. It's like trying to move a 300 ton marshmallow (Ghost Busters, anyone?). Those who are not absorbed are alienated.

A third party seems most logical, but attempts so far have been pretty dismal failures.


140 posted on 12/03/2005 1:08:10 PM PST by furball4paws (The new elixir of life - dehydrated toad urine.)
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To: b_sharp
"...he who understands baboon would do more toward Metaphysics than Locke."

I'm still trying to figure out what is supposed to be wrong with this. Anyone who makes a major contribution to science does more than all the philosophers who ever lived.

141 posted on 12/03/2005 1:15:07 PM PST by js1138 (Great is the power of steady misrepresentation.)
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To: Mamzelle

Yes, a chimp is a closer evolutionary relative so it stood a better chance of succeeding.

Others knew the risks and informed the patients.

This was an unnecessary risk taken by a willfully ignorant individual.

You can go on as much as you like about ego, but the doctor's clear statement was that the used a baboon because he didn't believe in evolution.


142 posted on 12/03/2005 1:16:01 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: From many - one.

That's OK,-I stopped arguing with Democrats when I quit Compuserve. Carry on with your recruiting--watching with interst.


143 posted on 12/03/2005 1:17:53 PM PST by Mamzelle (evogracious#6--you unbelievably ignorant clown!)
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To: Mamzelle

No, that's not the reasoning.


144 posted on 12/03/2005 1:18:01 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: Just mythoughts
There does appear to be a religious method of "shunning" any and all that question a supposed theory.

As you are well aware, scientific theories are not "supposed," but rather just "are." And once again, for the billionth time, a religious person has used "religious" with a negative connotation. I love it every single time.
145 posted on 12/03/2005 1:19:35 PM PST by whattajoke (I'm back... kinda.)
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To: furball4paws

I like that 300 pound marshmallow too much to give you a proper response...I rarely LOL but I do grin big and wide.


146 posted on 12/03/2005 1:20:27 PM PST by From many - one.
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To: Right Wing Professor
Go ahead and teach ID. Just don't teach it in a science class. Teach it in a philosophy class or a history class.

Ancient history.

147 posted on 12/03/2005 1:21:58 PM PST by muir_redwoods (Free Sirhan Sirhan, after all, the bastard who killed Mary Jo Kopechne is walking around free)
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To: JudgemAll
Darwinism" used as a trojanhorse code word for instituting slavery by the flesh and materials.

Actually, the word "Darwinism" is only used by fundamentalist christian creationists trying to assign a boogeymanish name to something.
148 posted on 12/03/2005 1:24:08 PM PST by whattajoke (I'm back... kinda.)
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To: Mamzelle

Just let me know when you need #7.


149 posted on 12/03/2005 1:25:25 PM PST by balrog666 (A myth by any other name is still inane.)
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To: Mamzelle

Recruiting for what?

Your reading comprehension seems more than a bit off...

...or is it that you have no honest response to the Baby Fae fiasco so you are trying to confuse the issue?

The fact remains that a doctor who did not believe in evolution used his willful ignorance and killed a baby.


150 posted on 12/03/2005 1:25:41 PM PST by From many - one.
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