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Jewish leaders to devise strategy
The Washington Times ^ | December 5, 2005 | Julia Duin

Posted on 12/05/2005 7:55:23 PM PST by neverdem


The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com

Jewish leaders to devise strategy

By Julia Duin
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published December 5, 2005

A group of Jewish leaders meets in New York this week to develop a response to the religious right, which they say is eroding civil liberties and planning to "christianize America."


    Led by Abraham Foxman, national director of the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), and Rabbi Eric Yoffie, president of the Union for Reform Judaism, the private meeting is set for today, said an assistant to Mr. Yoffie.


    Both men were unavailable for comment Friday, and neither organization would divulge details of the meeting, including who else is attending and where it is being held.


    But the meeting is the culmination of a month of attacks by Mr. Foxman and Mr. Yoffie on conservative Christian groups, starting with Mr. Foxman's speech Nov. 3 at an ADL function in New York.


    "We face a better-financed, more sophisticated, coordinated, unified, energized and organized coalition of groups in opposition to our policy positions on church-state separation than ever before," he said. "Their goal is to implement their Christian worldview. To Christianize America. To save us."


    The chief villains, he said, were the Colorado Springs-based Focus on the Family; the Scottsdale, Ariz.-based Alliance Defense Fund; the Tupelo, Miss.-based American Family Association; and the Family Research Council, based in Washington.


    "This issue is serious enough for us to develop a strategy, and, clearly, our first task is to win the support of the American public," Mr. Foxman said. "We also need to come together with other Jewish..."

--snip--


    On Nov. 19, Mr. Yoffie compared the religious right to Nazis...


(Excerpt) Read more at washtimes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; Germany; Government; Israel; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: District of Columbia
KEYWORDS: adl; christianworldview; foxman
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1 posted on 12/05/2005 7:55:24 PM PST by neverdem
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To: neverdem

Eric Yoffe and Arthur Waskow are not Jewish leaders. They represent only the far left.


2 posted on 12/05/2005 7:59:30 PM PST by Inyokern
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To: neverdem

Yeah, well, listen up Mr. Foxman, the religeous right is at least not planning to chop your silly head off. Unlike some other folks, who shall remain nameless.


3 posted on 12/05/2005 7:59:50 PM PST by jocon307
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To: neverdem
A group of Jewish leaders meets in New York this week to develop a response to the religious right...

I guess that the global spread of Islamic extremism doesn't pose the immediate threat of, say, James Dobson.

I'm embarrassed for the ADL.

4 posted on 12/05/2005 8:01:17 PM PST by Starve The Beast (I used to be disgusted, but now I try to be amused)
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To: neverdem
Are they like...on something??

Every (real) Christian I know reveres the Jewish people as their religion is the very foundation of all that we are & hold dear to our hearts. What are those boys thinking?
5 posted on 12/05/2005 8:06:40 PM PST by Smarti Pants (~This American Patriot will never forget !!!~)
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To: neverdem

Abe Foxman and his ilk in this group, are dispicable pieces of ... Well, I can't say, this IS a public forum.

I can't express the level of disgust that this Jew has for them.

Mark


6 posted on 12/05/2005 8:07:56 PM PST by MarkL (When Kaylee says "No power in the `verse can stop me," it's cute. When River says it, it's scary!)
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To: neverdem
More:
Criticism has been strong among conservative-leaning Jews.

"Foxman loves to whine about the religious right and how they're destroying religious liberty in America," said Don Feder, president of Jews Against Anti-Christian Defamation.

"Is wanting to keep God in the Pledge of Allegiance Christianizing America? Is opposition to gay marriage Christianizing America? Is efforts to keep public displays of the Ten Commandments Christianizing America? If so, Moses was a Christianizer."

7 posted on 12/05/2005 8:18:00 PM PST by West Coast Conservative (Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists.)
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Foxman pulls in over $500,000 in salary as the head of ADL.
To finance that outrageous amount he has to convince all those rich widows in Boca that the next pogrom begins in 30 minutes. He also appeals to secular, mainly atheistic Jews and others who hate ALL religious expression.

His campaign against Mel Gibson produced the most contributions in ADL history.

The sad part is his willingness to sacrifice Evangelical support for Israel and the relationship between Christians and Jews in this country to get money. He makes some Christians angry, he makes many Jews even more so.



(Check the Jewish bloggers, overwhelmingly against Foxman. The ADL is just not that important any more.}
8 posted on 12/05/2005 8:30:25 PM PST by catonsville (Evolution is a marvelous thing; I hope our species will try it sometime......Marc Barasch)
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To: neverdem

These people don't represent me, an embarassment they are. They make many of us look bad. Kind of like having Al Sharpton as your leader same idea.


9 posted on 12/05/2005 8:42:52 PM PST by StuLongIsland
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To: MarkL
Let's ignore the Islamo-fascists who want to kill every Jew and set up a worldwide caliphate. Now Jerry Falwell turning on the lights of a Christmas tree -- that is terrifying!

That is a shiny tag line, by the way.

10 posted on 12/05/2005 8:56:38 PM PST by Wilhelm Tell (True or False? This is not a tag line.)
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To: neverdem

Bad headline. Should read "liberal Jewish leaders." I don't see Mort Klein or the head of the OU quoted anywhere.


11 posted on 12/05/2005 9:01:12 PM PST by ChicagoHebrew (Hell exists, it is real. It's a quiet green meadow populated entirely by Arab goat herders.)
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To: neverdem

Abraham Foxman is not a Jewish leader anymore than David Geffen is.


12 posted on 12/05/2005 9:03:16 PM PST by wardaddy (Merry Christmas ya'll)
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To: Smarti Pants

Abe Foxman is the Al Sharpton of Judiasm. His livelihood depends on causing controversy and finding "antisemitism" everywhere. Eric Yoffie is head of Reform Judaism, which functions more like a wing of the Democratic Party than a religious movement. These guys represent about 30% of American Jews.


13 posted on 12/05/2005 9:03:17 PM PST by ChicagoHebrew (Hell exists, it is real. It's a quiet green meadow populated entirely by Arab goat herders.)
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To: Wilhelm Tell

lol

i tried to say that very thing the other day here but was not so eloquent and got my hand chopped off by one who shall remain nameless

nice post

better to ignore a clear and present danger and concentrate instead on the best friend our kinfolk in Israel have...makes plenty of sense.

i knew the Teitelbaums done in Miami and one of them was the local ADL guy....they weren't stupid folks...I wonder if all the local chapters are this radical.


14 posted on 12/05/2005 9:09:50 PM PST by wardaddy (Merry Christmas ya'll)
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To: neverdem

That's not a very honest headline.

Foxman isn't considered to be a Jewish leader except maybe by some in the Reform movement and other people on the left.


15 posted on 12/05/2005 9:14:55 PM PST by familyop ("Let us try" sounds better, don't you think? "Essayons" is so...Latin.)
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To: ChicagoHebrew
I heard Yoffe speak in Houston a few weeks ago and he was quite gracious towards Christians who, in religous mixed marriages, sincerely participate in raising their children as Jews. He suggested they ought to be thanked by the Reform Jewish community. His speach was quite touching.
16 posted on 12/05/2005 9:16:55 PM PST by Zuben Elgenubi
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To: neverdem

Not in my name...


17 posted on 12/05/2005 9:32:35 PM PST by Piranha
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To: Inyokern

THey need to be revealed for what they are: ANTI-CHRISTIAN BIGGOTS and HATERS;

What most of these so called anti-defemation groups fail to realize (or rather choose not to believe..) is that America was founded on Christian principles, with the majority of its Citizens being Christians for most of US History, it is only recently that America has forgotten her Christian past..

Plus becuase of this (American's Godly herritage..) We live in a Constitutional Republic form of government, where the rights of all ARE respected, even those that want to practice minority religions, lifestyles. -ANd this in a CHRISTIAN nation!- Would the Muslims do the same? (DOES EVEN ISRAEL GIVE CITIZENSHIP TO CHRISTIANS :)?)

Beside that they are just trying to devide Jews who believe many of the same things as Orthodox/Fundamental Christians and therefore have the same MORALS-leading to goals as today's "religious right"; It's not going to work. I hope these secularists fail once again in their attempt to demonize Christianity and others of good standing!


18 posted on 12/05/2005 10:00:06 PM PST by JSDude1 (If we are not governed by God, we WILL be governed by Tyrants-William Penn..founder of Pennsylvania)
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To: neverdem

What gets me is that all these liberal Jews spent years trying to convince the Vatican to recognize Israel. When Pope John Paul finally did establish relations with Israel, they were dancing in the streets.

Why would it be so important to these people for the Vatican, who has been so pro-Palestinian for so many years, and were very much responsible for the spread of antisemitsim in Europe, to recognize Israel? Yet they view Evangelical Christians in America, the one country that has been good to the Jews, who are enthusiastically pro-Israel, with nothing but suspicion and contempt.

I'LL TELL YOU WHY, DAMMIT....

Most American Jews live in big cities, at least they did a few decades ago. They had friends and neighbors who were Catholics....Italians, Irish, Hispanics. They figure that if the Vatican recognizes Israel, all those nice Catholics will like them even better.

Most American Jews also had ancestors who came from rural areas of Poland, Russia, the Ukraine, etc. Their ancestors were persecuted by blond haired, light eyed, rural, nationalistic Christians. So they see Evangelical Christians, who also live in rural areas and are also nationalistic, and who also tend to have blond hair and light eyes, as the American equivalent to the people who persecuted them in Eastern Europe.

These liberal Jews are engaged in a combination of knee jerk racial prejudice and big city elitism. There is an old Yiddish expresssion...."goyishakop". It means the face of a goy (the face of a non Jew). You'll never hear a Jew describe a Black, Hispanic or Asian as a goyishakop. It's always someone with blond hair, light eyes and a turned up nose.

A mob of Blacks can start an anti-Jewish pogrom in Brooklyn and these liberal Jews just yawn. Left wing college students can call for the destruction of Israel and the liberal Jews yawn. But when a blond haired, light eyed, goyishakop with a Southern accent from a small rural town talks about Jesus, these idiots go nuts.

They are an embarrassment. At least the Orthodox, Hasidic and Sephardic Jews vote Republican.


19 posted on 12/05/2005 10:03:22 PM PST by The Fop (They attacked 2 of America's main arteries, so we invaded the heart of Arabia. It's that simple)
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To: Inyokern

Interesting point. I believe this is nothing more than the continued democrat campaign to undermine our country and president. It seems that dean has found himself two more whores.


20 posted on 12/05/2005 10:27:23 PM PST by PA Engineer (Liberate America from the occupation media.)
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To: neverdem

This is a great example of what Freud called the "narcissism of minor difference." As others have pointed out, militant Islam is dedicated to exterminating both Christians and Jews. So what do the so-called "Jewish leaders" do? Not align themselves with the Christians, with whom they are far more similar than different. That would be the logical thing, but rather than do that they prefer to magnify molehills into mountains--all while Rome burns.

The one thing I can say for them is that they are dependable. As a Jew, I can always depend on them to embarrass me.


21 posted on 12/05/2005 11:02:05 PM PST by freespirited
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To: jocon307
"Yeah, well, listen up Mr. Foxman, the religeous right is at least not planning to chop your silly head off. Unlike some other folks, who shall remain nameless."


"We face a better-financed, more sophisticated, coordinated, unified, energized and organized coalition of groups in opposition to our policy positions on church-state separation than ever before," he said. "Their goal is to implement their Christian worldview. To Christianize America. To save us."


Doesn't sound like it is his head that he is worried about, seems like he is more threatened by the Constitution, you know that living evolving document where in liberals claim there is no "GOD".
22 posted on 12/06/2005 2:23:47 AM PST by Just mythoughts
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To: neverdem
Its not Islamofascists that are liberal Jews' worst enemy, right? These people are out of touch with the real sources of anti-Semitism in this century. Hint: its not the folks who are Israel's best friends.

(Denny Crane: "I Don't Want To Socialize With A Pinko Liberal Democrat Commie.Say What You Like About Republicans. We Stick To Our Convictions. Even When We Know We're Dead Wrong.")

23 posted on 12/06/2005 2:36:57 AM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: JSDude1

Israel DOES give citizenship to Christians, and Muslims as well. In fact there are both Christians and Muslims that have served in both the Israeli parliament and military

As for your claim that this is a "Christian" nation, the framers and the administration of John Adams seem to belie it throught he ratification of the Treaty of Tripoli in 1796:

Treaty of Tripoli


Unlike governments of the past, the American Fathers set up a government divorced from religion. The establishment of a secular government did not require a reflection to themselves about its origin; they knew this as an unspoken given. However, as the U.S. delved into international affairs, few foreign nations knew about the intentions of America. For this reason, an insight from at a little known but legal document written in the late 1700s explicitly reveals the secular nature of the United States to a foreign nation. Officially called the "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:
Joel Barlow
U.S. Consul General of Algiers
Copyright National Portait Gallery Smithsonian Institution/Art Resource NY


"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."


The preliminary treaty began with a signing on 4 November, 1796 (the end of George Washington's last term as president). Joel Barlow, the American diplomat served as counsel to Algiers and held responsibility for the treaty negotiations. Barlow had once served under Washington as a chaplain in the revolutionary army. He became good friends with Paine, Jefferson, and read Enlightenment literature. Later he abandoned Christian orthodoxy for rationalism and became an advocate of secular government. Barlow, along with his associate, Captain Richard O'Brien, et al, translated and modified the Arabic version of the treaty into English. From this came the added Amendment 11. Barlow forwarded the treaty to U.S. legislators for approval in 1797. Timothy Pickering, the secretary of state, endorsed it and John Adams concurred (now during his presidency), sending the document on to the Senate. The Senate approved the treaty on June 7, 1797, and officially ratified by the Senate with John Adams signature on 10 June, 1797. All during this multi-review process, the wording of Article 11 never raised the slightest concern. The treaty even became public through its publication in The Philadelphia Gazette on 17 June 1797.

So here we have a clear admission by the United States that our government did not found itself upon Christianity. Unlike the Declaration of Independence, this treaty represented U.S. law as all treaties do according to the Constitution (see Article VI, Sect. 2).


24 posted on 12/06/2005 3:13:08 AM PST by jeltz25
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To: Alouette; SJackson; Salem; Alexander Rubin; timsbella; Yehuda; Nachum; sheik yerbouty; dennisw

Foxman and Yoffie are about as representative of true Jews as John Shelby Spong is representative of true Christians. Those two bloviating carpetbaggers should loose all their teeth except one, and that one should remain for a toothache!

Foxman/Yoffie flapping their sorry bazoos again - ping!


25 posted on 12/06/2005 5:37:43 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (Not a nickel, not a dime, stop sending my tax money to Hamastine!)
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To: neverdem

Idiots! And just in time for Christmas. How special!


26 posted on 12/06/2005 6:28:19 AM PST by dennisw (You shouldn't let other people get your kicks for you - Bob Dylan)
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To: catonsville
Foxman pulls in over $500,000 in salary as the head of ADL. To finance that outrageous amount he has to convince all those rich widows in Boca that the next pogrom begins in 30 minutes. He also appeals to secular, mainly atheistic Jews and others who hate ALL religious expression.

... The sad part is his willingness to sacrifice Evangelical support for Israel and the relationship between Christians and Jews in this country to get money. He makes some Christians angry, he makes many Jews even more so.

+1,000. It makes my blood pressure go up every time one of these hard left schills presumes to speak in the name of all Jews. This Jew, at least, isn't worried about being converted to any other religion, and has a distinct distaste for those who would eliminate all religion and all mention of G-d from public life. Without religion, we'd ultimately become a bunch of uncivilized and amoral barbarians. Understanding that you are accountable for all of your actions to the One who knows everything is a far bigger restraint on our baser instincts than even the worst punishments that a Hitler or a Stalin can mete out, let alone the pantywaste PC governments of the West. That is what keeps us civilized (and, therefore, prosperous), not a bunch of manmade laws. Foxman and Co. clearly don't get that, and they'd prefer to make piles of money scaring old ladies about the last boogeyman, rather than the one which presents a clear and present danger.

27 posted on 12/06/2005 7:37:48 AM PST by Ancesthntr
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To: 1st-P-In-The-Pod; A Jovial Cad; A_Conservative_in_Cambridge; adam_az; af_vet_rr; agrace; ahayes; ...
Eric Yoffie and Abe Foxman do not lead any Jews. They are "wannabee leaders" but very few actually follow them.

FRmail me to be added or removed from this Judaic/pro-Israel/Russian Jewry ping list.

Warning! This is a high-volume ping list.

28 posted on 12/06/2005 7:51:17 AM PST by Alouette (Learned Mother of Zion)
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To: Smarti Pants
>Are they like...on something?? Every (real) Christian I know reveres the Jewish people

Believe it or not,
you do not know all Christians
and many of those

you don't know believe
Christians have replaced the Jews
as God's "chosen" ones . . .

And those Christians think
they are every bit as "real"
as you think you are.

Jews, Christians and the 'new antisemitism'

By Edward Kessler

"In Jewish-Christian relations an old problem has been generating a new controversy and has compelled some people to ask whether we are facing a ‘new antisemitism’. In this case, concern has been raised about the doctrine of replacement theology - the doctrine that Christianity has simply replaced Judaism. This has revived fears among some Jews about the spectre of a resurgence of Christian antisemitism. Replacement theology suggests that since the time of Jesus, Christians have replaced Jews in God’s favour and that Christianity has inherited all of God’s promises, including the land of Israel.

"According to the article published by Melanie Phillips in the Spectator,(1) anti-Israeli feeling in Christian circles has arisen as a result of replacement theology. She quotes Canon Andrew White that 'almost all the Churches hold to replacement theology' and argues vehemently that what she identified as an outpouring of Christian anti-Zionism is driven by this ‘new antisemitism’. ..."

29 posted on 12/06/2005 7:59:09 AM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: neverdem
To my Christian friends on FR:
Foxman and Yoffie are not Jews. Their religion is Marxism, their dogma is Secular Humanism. These vermin hate America and hate Israel. Foxman was even thrown out of his own N.J. synogogue for his anti-Israel views. In particular, please ignore what thse cockroaches have to say about anything. In general also please completely ignore any comment a "Jew" or "Jewish leader" makes if you see "Reform" anywhere in their description. What many of us call "Deformed" Judiasm is a dead sect which does not represent the views of religious Jews. Their members are dying off (not soon enough, especially in Palm Beach), intermarrying and having abortions. Meanwhile 77% of religious Jews voted for George W. Bush in 2004. They are having on average 5 children per family. The future face of American Jews will be very different from the Foxman/Yoffie scumbags you see today.
30 posted on 12/06/2005 8:05:55 AM PST by montag813
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To: All

The ADL gets not one nickel from this fella...I e-mailed my local ADL office. They didn't even bother to reply. They sure as nuts don't represent me.


31 posted on 12/06/2005 8:10:45 AM PST by sofaman ("Get off the phone, you big dope!")
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To: montag813; Alouette; Esther Ruth; F15Eagle; Salem

"Deformed" Judaism......their religion is Marxism and their dogma is Secular Humanism..... Montag813, you hit the provervial nail on the head, buddy!

They're the JINO counterparts of rad-lib "protestants" and "catholics", the CINOs. They share the same "religion" and "dogma." Some of us call our CINOs "kumbaya christians"; I often use the term for those from my former denomination...epsicopagans. New Age, Politically Correct, stale 60s leftover hippie-dippy, Marxism, Secular Humanism. They all do the same thing, they mix root beer with the 12-year old scotch, so to speak.

These assorted nincompoops are about as representative of real Judaism or Christianity as a Yugo is representative of a Ferarri.


32 posted on 12/06/2005 8:46:05 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (Not a nickel, not a dime, stop sending my tax money to Hamastine!)
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To: montag813
Foxman and Yoffie are not Jews.

"Yisrael af al pi she'hata, Yisrael hu" (A Jew who sins, is still a Jew)

The word that I take exception to is "Leader."

Their members are dying off (not soon enough, especially in Palm Beach),

There's no need to be so nasty. I have liberal loved ones and they are a pain in the tuchis to be with, especially during the holidays. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't be a mensch.

33 posted on 12/06/2005 8:57:55 AM PST by Alouette (Learned Mother of Zion)
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To: neverdem
Dear Abe,

Jews are dying in Israel from bombs, Jonathan Pollard is rotting in his cell, Jewish Schools are screaming for help, and all you can do is have meetings like this?

Boy, do you need some therapy.

34 posted on 12/06/2005 8:58:58 AM PST by Nachum (go White Sox!)
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To: JSDude1

If anyone has any questions as to what happens when you start to lose touch with your religious heritage (Christianity, Judaism, etc.) just ask the Europeans, especially the French. The Islamofacists are using the opportuniy provided by exactly this to overrun Europe.


35 posted on 12/06/2005 9:49:04 AM PST by unionblue83
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To: Smarti Pants

Don't ask questions to which you don't want to know the answers.


Because it would be yes.


36 posted on 12/06/2005 9:51:43 AM PST by Alexander Rubin (Octavius - You make my heart glad building thus, as if Rome is to be eternal.)
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To: wardaddy

Foxman and Yoffie aren't stupid, just deluded. And lacking in common sense...


37 posted on 12/06/2005 9:52:59 AM PST by Alexander Rubin (Octavius - You make my heart glad building thus, as if Rome is to be eternal.)
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To: StuLongIsland

Foxman merely lacks Fat Al's helmet hair..


38 posted on 12/06/2005 10:02:08 AM PST by sheik yerbouty ( Make America and the world a jihad free zone!)
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To: Convert from ECUSA

Why don't these mprons devise a strategy to deal with jihadists instead of just babbling..


39 posted on 12/06/2005 10:04:46 AM PST by sheik yerbouty ( Make America and the world a jihad free zone!)
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To: neverdem
These people are as bad for Judaism as liberal "mainline" Christians are for the Christian faith. The more they push secularization and liberal politics the more their congregations dwindle. If they had a lick of sense they would return to their Jewish roots and ally themselves with conservative Christians who, despite all the angry attacks, really wish them well and support Israel.

But they don't have a lick of sense and never will.

40 posted on 12/06/2005 10:09:09 AM PST by colorado tanker (I can't comment on things that might come before the Court, but I can tell you my Pinochle strategy)
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To: theFIRMbss
anti-Israeli feeling in Christian circles has arisen as a result of replacement theology.

It started early, it was codified at the Council of Nicea.

Later preached by

John Chrysostom was a rabid anti-semite and by extension John is someone who hates the Christ as Y'shua is a Jewish Rabbi who hates tradition and teaches the Word of G-d.

b'shem Y'shua

41 posted on 12/06/2005 10:12:45 AM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Y'shua <==> YHvH is my Salvation (Psalm 118-14))
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To: jeltz25; JSDude1; Alouette; Yehuda; Just mythoughts; goldstategop; neverdem; Inyokern; jocon307; ...
I cannot let that post (#24) go unchallenged, as it has on FR in the past, so listen up, everyone!

1. Joel Barlow was a diplomat. He would say anything to get the Barbary-ians to sign off on the treaty. It would be a personal crowning career achievement for him.

2. Barlow, as you stated, was a chaplain, then gave up his Chistian beliefs. Would a man that unstable and unsure of his own beliefs be a good judge whom you would choose to follow at any time in his life?

3. (Most importantly) The USA was willing to tell the Moslems (Musselmen) anything, even LIE (gasp!) to put an end to it.

For more background, verse yourself in Islam, and then some history. It would not have been possible for the Moslems to sign an agreement with Christians unless they had been given the assurance that we weren't really Christian.

They extracted a lie out of us, that's all.

This isn't worth the paper it was printed on, and guys like YOU have nothing else in all of our national archives that you can come up with. ;) (And everyone here KNOWS IT!)

This government--the national legislature and every state legislature--has opened its sessions with prayer. Constant references to G-d are made in our money, in public speeches, and at inaugural addresses. References to G-d are made in State of the Union addresses.

The very idea that men are born with "inalienable rights" stems from...what source? Where are those rights, and from Whom do we get them? We know we don't get them from government....

Where, above and beyond government, do we look to? Where have we always, as a nation, as a people, as Americans, made reference to when we say that our rights don't come from government, but from above it? We're talking about the Creator mentioned in the Declaration of Independence. The idea permeates the Constitution, public speeches, and thousands of court cases.

Our nation was founded by G-d fearing men. It could not have been estblished by any other kind. We owe them a great debt.

Sauron

42 posted on 12/06/2005 10:35:48 AM PST by sauron ("Truth is hate to those who hate Truth" --unknown)
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To: sheik yerbouty

To them, conservative, observant Christians and Jews are to be feared much more than the jihadstinians, whom they think they can appease. Just like the secular lefties, they'll be in for a rude awakening if, Heaven forbid, the Jihadstinians ever took over. Like Lenin's useful idiots, they'd be the first on the head-chopping block.


43 posted on 12/06/2005 10:46:00 AM PST by Convert from ECUSA (Not a nickel, not a dime, stop sending my tax money to Hamastine!)
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To: neverdem

This is relativistic self-hating garbage.
God's commandment in Leviticus is absolute. Homosexual sex is a "toeva", an abomination, on par with incest, bestiality, idolatry and human sacrifice. It is an act against God, nature, and the community. The punishment is for the men of the community to stone the transgressors. This is Jewish law, which Foxman is comparing to the tactics or Ernst Roehm's gang.
Foxman and Yoffie's rhetoric are anti-Biblical statements, which belong in a diatribe in "Cabaret" or a lecture from a disciple of the Frankfurt School.
These two are anti-Judaists who live off anti-Semitism and the fear they stoke. Al Sharpton is a clown compared to them.


44 posted on 12/06/2005 11:54:32 AM PST by rmlew (Sedition and Treason are both crimes, not free speech.)
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To: sauron

First, the main substance of my post was in response to the assertion that Israel bans Christians from citizenship(which I think you'd agree it most certainly does not do). If you'll notice, that was the first topic adressed.

As for the Treaty of Tripoli. You're view is certainly plausible, indeed probable in my view. Nations have been know to lie in the past. But it hardly brings me succor to know that a diplomat appointed by Washington and in the service of Adams, signed a treaty which was then ratified by the Senate and signed by the President, that was based on a fundamental falsehood. At the least, it certainly doesn't say much for the integrity of the framers and our early leaders.

I don't dispute that we are a "Christian" nation in some sense of term. THere are certainly plenty of quotes from the framers and plenty of evidence to back that up. But what kind of Christian nation? Surely we're not Catholic. So what Protestant sect? Or is it a more general notion of Christianity?

I think it's clear that various Christian as well as Deist/Natural Law theory was central to the framers' worldview. It is also clear, I think, that the nation and the government they founded was to be of an irreligious nature, notwithstanding the fact that religion certainly played a large role in daily life. But it was distinct from the Government. Read Madison's Remonstrance and Jefferson's Virgina statute on Religious Freedom for but two good examples of the founder's views on the relationship between government and religion.

It's true, this nation was founded by God fearing men. But it was also founded by men secure enough in that belief that they realized that there men who feared other Gods or indeed men who feared no God at all and that those men were to be on equal footing with themselves as far as the state was cocnerned.

That being said, I do think Foxman has just gone too far on this.


45 posted on 12/06/2005 12:05:25 PM PST by jeltz25
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To: XeniaSt
>replacement theology
>>It started early, it was codified at the Council of Nicea

A great study of
the various heresies
afflicting Christians

and establishing
an anti-Semitic base
is Hal Lindsey's book:



"Here is bestselling author Hal Lindsey's most shocking revelation ever: the disquieting facts about a new spiritual movement that would take over our churches and government and lead us to disaster. Just as current events are converging into the precise pattern the biblical prophets predicted would herald the return of Jesus Christ, a new movement has arisen with the Evangelical Church that denies it all--allegorizing away the clear meaning of prophecy. This movement, commonly known as Dominion Theology, reintroduces an old error that brought catastrophe to the Church and the Dark Ages to the world--the same error that founded a legacy of contempt for the Jews and ultimately led to the Holocaust of Nazi Germany. 295 pages, paper"

46 posted on 12/06/2005 12:17:31 PM PST by theFIRMbss
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To: theFIRMbss
I love Hal Lindsay. He has been predicting doom and gloom for the last 30 years. None of his prophecies ever quite work out.

His bank account is looking quite healthy though.

47 posted on 12/06/2005 12:26:51 PM PST by Nachum (go White Sox!)
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To: neverdem; Smarti Pants; MarkL; StuLongIsland; ChicagoHebrew; Zuben Elgenubi; The Fop; jeltz25
Abe Foxman's paranoia is at least somewhat explicable by the fact that he is Holocaust survivor. Nonetheless, he is paranoid vis-a-vis the "Christian Right." I doubt that "Rabbi" Yoffie's foolishness can be traced to the same etiology. Unless Foxman, Yoffie, et al. have undergone a miracle cure of their collective psychpathology, don't expect anything new to come out of this latest meeting. Obviously, a good many American Jews strongly reject their outrageous statements, so they are not the "Jewish leaders" they pompously proclaim themselves to be.
48 posted on 12/06/2005 12:58:31 PM PST by justiceseeker93
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To: theFIRMbss

bump


49 posted on 12/06/2005 1:43:44 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Y'shua <==> YHvH is my Salvation (Psalm 118-14))
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To: The Fop
What gets me is that all these liberal Jews spent years trying to convince the Vatican to recognize Israel. When Pope John Paul finally did establish relations with Israel, they were dancing in the streets.

Why would it be so important to these people for the Vatican, who has been so pro-Palestinian for so many years, and were very much responsible for the spread of antisemitsim in Europe, to recognize Israel? Yet they view Evangelical Christians in America, the one country that has been good to the Jews, who are enthusiastically pro-Israel, with nothing but suspicion and contempt.

I'LL TELL YOU WHY, DAMMIT....

Most American Jews live in big cities, at least they did a few decades ago. They had friends and neighbors who were Catholics....Italians, Irish, Hispanics. They figure that if the Vatican recognizes Israel, all those nice Catholics will like them even better.

Most American Jews also had ancestors who came from rural areas of Poland, Russia, the Ukraine, etc. Their ancestors were persecuted by blond haired, light eyed, rural, nationalistic Christians. So they see Evangelical Christians, who also live in rural areas and are also nationalistic, and who also tend to have blond hair and light eyes, as the American equivalent to the people who persecuted them in Eastern Europe.

These liberal Jews are engaged in a combination of knee jerk racial prejudice and big city elitism. There is an old Yiddish expresssion...."goyishakop". It means the face of a goy (the face of a non Jew). You'll never hear a Jew describe a Black, Hispanic or Asian as a goyishakop. It's always someone with blond hair, light eyes and a turned up nose.

A mob of Blacks can start an anti-Jewish pogrom in Brooklyn and these liberal Jews just yawn. Left wing college students can call for the destruction of Israel and the liberal Jews yawn. But when a blond haired, light eyed, goyishakop with a Southern accent from a small rural town talks about Jesus, these idiots go nuts.

Bravo for touching on this idiotic "bumpkin-phobia" so many American Jews suffer from, and it's for the exact reasons you say! Never mind that the people who killed their ancestors in Europe were Catholic or Orthodox chr*stians, the fact that they live with these people in big American cities makes them "kosher," while rural Protestants (and when was there ever a pogrom in a Protestant country, other than Germany under a totalitarian pagan regime) have been cast into a role they have never actually performed. And of course, rural Southern Protestants who are Black are magically transformed into non-Goyim even though all non-Jews are goyim. American Jews can deal with people named Mary Elizabeth or Francis Xavier or Vladimir or Jose Rodriguez but put them face to face with someone named Caleb or Jethro or Jedidiah and they go into spasms of anxiety.

Ironically, the rural bumpkins of which Jews are so needlessly terrified read the Bible and get the idea that the ancient Israelites were themselves rural agricultural bumpkins who were very like themselves. I am sure there were very few Biblical Israelites who were in investment banking, the modern secular legal profession, or the "entertainment business!"

They are an embarrassment. At least the Orthodox, Hasidic and Sephardic Jews vote Republican.

Another irony is that I think contemporary Southern Fundamentalists are more like 'Ashkenazim than Sefaradim. Sefaradim are simply too laid back (like the French Cajuns). In fact, using the opposing forces of the English Civil war as a model I would classify them as Jewry's "cavaliers." I think Orthodox 'Ashkenazim are Jewry's "roundheads" (those 'Ashkenazim who are Orthodox are much stricter and more "uptight" than the Sefaradim), and despite the professional Confederate Puritan-haters I believe our Southern Protestants are very much roundheads.

Thank you for your post!

50 posted on 12/06/2005 1:54:09 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Liberal Jews and conservative chr*stians should switch religions.)
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