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Poll finds broad approval of terrorist torture. Most in U.S., ....say torture justified
MSNBC ^ | Updated: 9:29 p.m. ET Dec. 6, 2005 | Unsigned

Posted on 12/07/2005 5:48:52 AM PST by .cnI redruM

WASHINGTON - Most Americans and a majority of people in Britain, France and South Korea say torturing terrorism suspects is justified at least in rare instances, according to AP-Ipsos polling.

The United States has drawn criticism from human rights groups and many governments, especially in Europe, for its treatment of terror suspects. President Bush and other top officials have said the U.S. does not torture, but some suspects in American custody have alleged they were victims of severe mistreatment.

The polling, in the United States and eight of its closest allies, found that in Canada, Mexico and Germany people are divided on whether torture is ever justified. Most people opposed torture under any circumstances in Spain and Italy.

(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Front Page News; News/Current Events; United Kingdom
KEYWORDS: gwot; islam; morals; muslim; poll; terror; terrorist; torture; wot
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People to McCain - "We expect our country to do whatever is necessary to prevail. Whatever is necessary."
1 posted on 12/07/2005 5:48:53 AM PST by .cnI redruM
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To: .cnI redruM
HAHA!!

Take that MEDIA!!!!

2 posted on 12/07/2005 5:50:10 AM PST by Dog
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Comment #3 Removed by Moderator

To: .cnI redruM

McCain must have the absolute worst advisors known to science. They know how to get on the wrong side of nearly every issue.


4 posted on 12/07/2005 5:52:35 AM PST by capt. norm (Beware of the "White-Flag Democrats"...we all know who they are.)
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To: capt. norm
I'm sure George Allan and Mitt Romney recommended each and every one of them to Senator John.
5 posted on 12/07/2005 5:53:33 AM PST by .cnI redruM (Murtha - What happens when patriots turn into Democrats.)
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To: .cnI redruM

If a terrorist had information that could save thousands or tens of thousands of lives, there is no question as to what should be done. All other questions are rendered obsolete after considering this one vital question.


6 posted on 12/07/2005 5:54:34 AM PST by conservativecorner
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To: .cnI redruM
Since they have license to kill to defeat the enemy, they should be understood to have license to torture if doing so will help defeat the enemy, directly or indirectly.

HF

7 posted on 12/07/2005 5:55:26 AM PST by holden (holden on'a'na truth, de whole truth, 'n nuttin' but de truth)
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To: conservativecorner
RE: Charles Krauthammer's ticking bomb analogy. I wish had that link handy.
8 posted on 12/07/2005 5:57:09 AM PST by .cnI redruM (Murtha - What happens when patriots turn into Democrats.)
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To: capt. norm
You got that right. This guy seems to always come down on the wrong side of every issue. I predict that if "Wrongway McCain" was ever to get the republican presidential nomination that the democrats win the white house.
9 posted on 12/07/2005 6:00:28 AM PST by 2001convSVT ("People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence")
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To: .cnI redruM

McCain can outlaw torture of terrorists in home state of ARIZONA if he wants to. But - when it comes to the entire nation, I don't trust him to always do the 'right thing' when it comes to the defense of all the U.S. citizens!


10 posted on 12/07/2005 6:00:39 AM PST by LibFreeUSA
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To: .cnI redruM

Well, I didn't need a poll to tell me this.

I do find it interesting AP/IPSOS couldn't manufacture another result. This clearly isn't what they wanted.

Too bad McCain and the cowardly Republicans that will not challenge him, saving nine, would rather protect terrorists against the will, more importantly, SAFETY of the public.


11 posted on 12/07/2005 6:00:39 AM PST by Soul Seeker (Mr. President: It is now time to turn over the money changers' tables.)
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To: .cnI redruM

And this means what exactly? Most Americans support abortion, so I suppose that makes it right.


12 posted on 12/07/2005 6:02:42 AM PST by sheltonmac (QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES)
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To: conservativecorner
Hi All-

"...If a terrorist had information that could save thousands or tens of thousands of lives, there is no question as to what should be done..."


You're 100% exactly correct. Imagine for a moment if we had captured Mohammad Atta a few days before the September 11th terrorist attacks and knew that he had information about an upcoming attack. It would have been morally wrong for us not to utilize coercion/torture in order to spare the lives of those 3000 innocent Americans that died that morning.

~ Blue Jays ~

13 posted on 12/07/2005 6:03:20 AM PST by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: 2001convSVT
I predict that if "Wrongway McCain" was ever to get the republican presidential nomination that the democrats win the white house.

That is part of what MSM and Hillary are hoping. They is why MSM keeps showing McCain as the 'frontrunner', etc.

I don't see McCain getting very far in the primaries before he has a Deaniac-type meltdown, anyway.
14 posted on 12/07/2005 6:03:55 AM PST by TomGuy
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To: TomGuy
Can you imagine a Dean vs. McCain in a debate? I'd like to lock both men in the same office and tell each one they were in charge.
15 posted on 12/07/2005 6:05:34 AM PST by .cnI redruM (Murtha - What happens when patriots turn into Democrats.)
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To: sheltonmac
Most Americans support abortion in very limited instances. The polls are always referendums on whether the practice should be outlawed entirely.
16 posted on 12/07/2005 6:06:50 AM PST by .cnI redruM (Murtha - What happens when patriots turn into Democrats.)
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To: conservativecorner
that could save thousands or tens of thousands of lives

One is more than enough for me.

17 posted on 12/07/2005 6:08:23 AM PST by Raycpa
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To: 2001convSVT

RINO's must be wrong most of the time. Republicrats play to their constituencies to get reelected. A wet finger in the wind is all they need. Conservatives do what is right based on faith and law. Libs are ideology driven to Marxism.


18 posted on 12/07/2005 6:11:24 AM PST by EQAndyBuzz (Liberal Talking Point - Bush = Hitler ... Republican Talking Point - Let the Liberals Talk)
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To: sheltonmac
Most Americans support abortion, so I suppose that makes it right.

Everyone but the most dense know its wrong to tie our troops hands when fighting an enemy bent on destroying us. McCain and others grabbed onto this anti-terrorism, not because they thought it was right but because they thought it scored political points.

The problem that this poll shows is that those political points are not there. The problem with abortion is that it is both wrong yet many support it and can be used to obtain political advantage.

19 posted on 12/07/2005 6:12:12 AM PST by Raycpa
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To: sheltonmac
Hi sheltonmac-

What are your feelings about using coercion/torture on a committed Islamic terrorist to obtain attack information if the life of your mother, father, sister, brother, husband, wife, son, daughter, boyfriend, or girlfriend is on the line?

Should those gentle innocents die because the U.S. doesn't wish to employ certain interrogation techniques?

~ Blue Jays ~

20 posted on 12/07/2005 6:12:43 AM PST by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: .cnI redruM

The media continues to lump all torture into the same boat.

Does torture mean
- rape and dismemberment, or
- panties on the head and the comfy chair?


21 posted on 12/07/2005 6:15:29 AM PST by kidd
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To: .cnI redruM
War is the last resort. Wars should be fought to protect ones's citizens. Winning as quickly as possible is the second serious concept here.

As soon as "rules" are allowed in wars, asinine results like these discussions ensue.

You want me to fight your war for you? Don't give me any rules!

You want to make rules? You better be there beside me, experiencing the results. Otherwise don't bother me!

22 posted on 12/07/2005 6:21:31 AM PST by Publius6961 (The IQ of California voters is about 420........... .............cumulatively)
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To: sheltonmac
Most Americans support abortion, so I suppose that makes it right.

A false conclusion based on a false premise.
I don't believe a majority of Americans support late term killings. Not even close.

Just as most Americans do not support the rampant intrusion of the "pervert" lifestyle in our daily life.

And yet we must deal with that, too.

23 posted on 12/07/2005 6:24:58 AM PST by Publius6961 (The IQ of California voters is about 420........... .............cumulatively)
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To: .cnI redruM
The activities that I have read about that the MSM keeps calling torture are allowed under the Geneva convention. I reject the notion that the USA is torturing anyone, and therefor requires no justification whatsoever.
24 posted on 12/07/2005 6:25:24 AM PST by The_Victor (If all I want is a warm feeling, I should just wet my pants.)
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To: TomGuy

That is my hope also. "Wrongway McCain" feels (along with the media) that he is entitled to the 2008 nomination. He has a good chance to win in New Hampshire and Iowa but South Carolina will thumb their noses at him. I hope that he has a melt down during or after the South Carolina primary.


25 posted on 12/07/2005 6:36:26 AM PST by 2001convSVT ("People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence")
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To: Blue Jays

When it comes to this issue, why does everyone resort to playing on people's fears and emotions? Isn't that a tactic normally employed by the left?

Okay, I'll play along. I'm just as human as the next guy, so if someone I loved were in danger, I have my doubts as to what extremes I would go to ensure their safety. But this goes above and beyond mere personal interests. We're talking about official policy.

You think it's fine to torture a "committed Islamic terrorist." Why be so specific? Why not include the friends and family of a committed Islamic terrorist? If torturing them might reveal his location, would it be worth it?

And why limit torture to the military? Wouldn't it come in handy in domestic criminal investigations such as kidnapping cases?

Since you are the one advocating torture, what restrictions (if any) would you set on its use? How would we know that we have gone too far? And what assurance do we have that giving the government an inch won't mean they will take a mile? Or two? Or 100?


26 posted on 12/07/2005 6:43:31 AM PST by sheltonmac (QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES)
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To: The_Victor
Hi The_Victor:

The so-called "torture techniques" allegedly being used by the United States would cause a fraternity or sorority pledge to burst out in laughter! I knew kids in college who were compelled to drive the length of state toll roads completely naked paying for $0.25 tolls with crisp $100.00 bills. They suffered no permanent psychological damage and now laugh about it decades later. I'm sure the tollbooth collectors are still chuckling, too.

If innocent student can handle the temporary stress, I would have thought that committed jihadists were a bit tougher. Perhaps I'm wrong about those swarthy desert sissies.

~ Blue Jays ~

27 posted on 12/07/2005 6:43:52 AM PST by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: Blue Jays; sheltonmac

We are losing this debate by allowing the left and our enemies to redefine torture. The Geneva convention clearly defines torture, and the US isn't torturing anyone.


28 posted on 12/07/2005 6:54:40 AM PST by The_Victor (If all I want is a warm feeling, I should just wet my pants.)
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To: .cnI redruM

Yeah, and many polls show that Americans think Bush is doing a bad job.

Polls are useless and this one is no different.


29 posted on 12/07/2005 6:56:42 AM PST by Blzbba (For a man who does not know to which port he is sailing, no wind is favorable - Seneca)
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To: sheltonmac
Hi Sheltonmac-

"...You think it's fine to torture a "committed Islamic terrorist." Why be so specific? Why not include the friends and family of a committed Islamic terrorist? If torturing them might reveal his location, would it be worth it?..."


Now you're talking like a patriotic American again! I'm glad to see that you're coming around to recognize what needs to be done at pivotal times in our nation's history. We could break someone like Mohammad Atta if we had his mother on the telephone along with pictures of her with the current day's newspaper.

The fact-of-the-matter of why peoples' fears and emotions are brought into the discussion are because innocent terror victims ARE someone's family and friends. Terrorists have to learn one way or the other that there will be negative consequences to harming U.S. citizens anywhere in the world.

As far as your unlikely concerns about coercion/torture techniques being employed for domestic law enforcement, we can cross that bridge when we get to it. I'm just as concerned about statists as anyone else, but I think your fears are unfounded.

~ Blue Jays ~

30 posted on 12/07/2005 6:58:28 AM PST by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: capt. norm
McCain must have the absolute worst advisors

Naw. It's just McCain.

31 posted on 12/07/2005 7:00:00 AM PST by GVnana (Former Alias: GVgirl)
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To: conservativecorner

If a terrorist had information that could save ONE American life, I'd pull out the pinchers and blowtorches and get to work.


32 posted on 12/07/2005 7:02:20 AM PST by Little Ray (I'm a reactionary, hirsute, gun-owning, knuckle dragging, Christian Neanderthal and proud of it!)
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To: Blue Jays

With all the discussion devoted to this issue, it's becoming quite clear who will be leading the charge across that bridge. My fear, unfounded as it may seem, is that once we are on the other side, we will burn it as we have so many others.


33 posted on 12/07/2005 7:09:05 AM PST by sheltonmac (QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES)
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To: sheltonmac
>>>>Since you are the one advocating torture, what restrictions (if any) would you set on its use? How would we know that we have gone too far? And what assurance do we have that giving the government an inch won't mean they will take a mile? Or two? Or 100?


1) There are no 'hard-fast rules' on any of the great ethical gray areas. If there were, you me, John Kerry and Indira Ghandi would have four separate contextual understandings of what those rules meant.

2) Subjective decision-making is necessary in life. The obvious extreme case Charles Krauthammer makes with the 'Ticking Bomb Analogy' is one pole of a spectrum. 'The torture as SOP' exaggeration put forth by Komrade Kerry was yet another.

Life would be a heck of a lot simpler if we could speak in terms of always and never and not risk being colossally wrong, but that's not how existence works.
34 posted on 12/07/2005 7:35:43 AM PST by .cnI redruM (Murtha - What happens when patriots turn into Democrats.)
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To: .cnI redruM

"It rubs the lotion on its skin or else it gets the hose again!"


35 posted on 12/07/2005 7:36:26 AM PST by rightwinggoth
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To: sheltonmac

Most Americans support abortion, so I suppose that makes it right.




You're wrong. Not any more.


36 posted on 12/07/2005 7:38:51 AM PST by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: .cnI redruM

Could someone give me a definition of "torture" by the US in the war on terror?

no sugar with your coffee? No hi def TV? No access to Ramsey Clark?


37 posted on 12/07/2005 7:41:35 AM PST by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: Publius6961

That brings up an interesting historical question. Who really won The American Civil War? A lot of people say Ulysses S. Grant. I beg to differ. Sheridan, Custer, Butler and Sherman won the war. They burned the limited industrial capacity of The South to the ground and broke the will of The CSA. That's how you win. That's what we have to do to every enclave the Bin Ladins of the world hold fast in.


38 posted on 12/07/2005 7:41:56 AM PST by .cnI redruM (Murtha - What happens when patriots turn into Democrats.)
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To: eleni121
...and the Game Boy is strictly off limits to boot.
39 posted on 12/07/2005 7:42:37 AM PST by .cnI redruM (Murtha - What happens when patriots turn into Democrats.)
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To: .cnI redruM

No Game boy? That would be torture go for some of these disgusting savages.


40 posted on 12/07/2005 7:47:34 AM PST by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: kidd


"Does torture mean
- rape and dismemberment, or
- panties on the head and the comfy chair?"

Good point or might torture be....

having to listen to bad music and be pointed at?


41 posted on 12/07/2005 7:48:48 AM PST by GOPPachyderm
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To: sheltonmac
With all the discussion devoted to this issue, it's becoming quite clear who will be leading the charge across that bridge. My fear, unfounded as it may seem, is that once we are on the other side, we will burn it as we have so many others.

So the Constitution really is a suicide pact? You remind me of the inhabitants of a city in ancient Israel who would not fight on the Sabbath. Guess when their enemies attacked and destroyed them? To borrow a Napoleon quote (that was a favorite of George S. Patton): "Do not take counsel of your fears".

42 posted on 12/07/2005 7:49:24 AM PST by pawdoggie
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To: .cnI redruM
That brings up an interesting historical question. Who really won The American Civil War? A lot of people say Ulysses S. Grant. I beg to differ. Sheridan, Custer, Butler and Sherman won the war. They burned the limited industrial capacity of The South to the ground and broke the will of The CSA. That's how you win. That's what we have to do to every enclave the Bin Ladins of the world hold fast in.

And who do you think developed the strategy that those other generals implemented. Grant, of course.

43 posted on 12/07/2005 7:51:57 AM PST by pawdoggie
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To: pawdoggie

Seems to me the pro-torture/pro-war crowd cannot help but take counsel of their fears. (Isn't that why we're in Iraq in the first place?) But those are "post-9/11" fears, so it's justified.


44 posted on 12/07/2005 8:14:55 AM PST by sheltonmac (QUIS CUSTODIET IPSOS CUSTODES)
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To: sheltonmac
Seems to me the pro-torture/pro-war crowd cannot help but take counsel of their fears. (Isn't that why we're in Iraq in the first place?) But those are "post-9/11" fears, so it's justified.

I suppose one could make that argument, if one buys into the "WMDs were the only reason we invaded Iraq" rationale. Since I have taken the time to read the use of force resolution that authorized Mr. Bush to move against Iraq, I know that there were other reasons. Had I been in Clinton's shoes (a terrifying prospect, I know) I would have asked Congress for a declaration of war after the bungled assassination attempt on George H. Bush. This one have given Clinton the "wartime President legacy" he so desperately craved, and it would still have been the right thing to do.

45 posted on 12/07/2005 8:32:09 AM PST by pawdoggie
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To: .cnI redruM

Terrorists are NOT SUBJECT to the Geneva Convention. They do not wear uniforms and attacks civilian targets. Get whatever info you can from them, then shoot them.


46 posted on 12/07/2005 9:03:39 AM PST by rfreedom4u (Native Texan)
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To: sheltonmac
"Most Americans support abortion, so I suppose that makes it right."

Actually I'm not sure that's correct. Maybe the right to an abortion but not the act of abortion.

47 posted on 12/07/2005 10:50:01 AM PST by Eagles Talon IV
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To: Publius6961

I agree. It is the "Powell Doctrine", which I am in favor of with modification. Instead of overwhelming force as the mainstay I believe the force should be a crushing, obliterating, no barriers hell storm of fire and destruction. No distinction should be made between civilian and military structures. This type of response will infuriate the world, to be sure, but it would also serve to make the savages tread very lightly in our presence, knowing that even as much as a single and relatively inconsequential act of terror would bring the very heavens down upon them.


48 posted on 12/07/2005 10:58:25 AM PST by Eagles Talon IV
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To: pawdoggie
"Who really won The American Civil War?"

I know, I know!!! America?

49 posted on 12/07/2005 11:00:37 AM PST by Eagles Talon IV
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To: .cnI redruM
Well, Grant was the Commander at the front, so he gets the credit, but you're right. Perhaps when wars got civilized, fewer people are supposed to die.
But when something like Fallujah happens, I seethe.

The price for earning the "civilized" PC label was "only" a few dozen American deaths. It could have been close to zero.

50 posted on 12/08/2005 8:34:23 AM PST by Publius6961 (The IQ of California voters is about 420........... .............cumulatively)
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