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Creation evangelist derides evolution as ‘dumbest’ theory [Kent Hovind Alert!]
University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee Post ^ | 17 December 2005 | Kayla Bunge

Posted on 12/17/2005 3:58:48 AM PST by PatrickHenry

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To: shuckmaster
Gimmie one example please. Just one is all I ask!

Common EVO tactic.... Do your own research...
451 posted on 12/17/2005 2:24:27 PM PST by darbymcgill
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To: pageonetoo

How long do you think would be long enough then? Give reasons for your answer. Take any well-known fossil sequence, and explain why the dates between the samples aren't long enough, by reference to known rates of allele frequency change. This will require you to debunk the work of those who have shown that measured rates of change are sufficient to account for modern genetic diversity, assuming the physicists measurements of the age of the earth are correct.


452 posted on 12/17/2005 2:24:40 PM PST by Thatcherite (F--ked in the afterlife, bullying feminized androgenous automaton euro-weenie blackguard)
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To: darbymcgill
Common EVO tactic.... Do your own research...

WRONG! When you make a claim and are asked to back it up you should do so, or withdraw. We aren't going to do your research for you.

453 posted on 12/17/2005 2:25:43 PM PST by Thatcherite (F--ked in the afterlife, bullying feminized androgenous automaton euro-weenie blackguard)
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To: Thatcherite; darbymcgill
Perhaps you'd care to cite some of Hovind's arguments (particularly the ones that even AiG says are bogus) so that we can all debate them if you don't think he is being taken seriously enough. Take your pick of them.

How about the flood and the Grand Canyon? I have been waiting for somebody to support that little gem.

454 posted on 12/17/2005 2:25:47 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: darbymcgill
It seems that you don't understand how that fallacy works, so it's not surprising that you can't recognize it. Today, a number of posters have chosen to comment on Hovind's criminal behavior. If those posters had then claimed that his arguments on evolution were invalid because he cheats on his taxes, lies to his neighbors, doesn't help old ladies cross the street, or otherwise engages in unsavory behavior, then those posters would be guilt of the ad hominem fallacy.

Simply pointing out that he cheats on his taxes, which he does, is not in and of itself fallacious. In fact, it can't be fallacious, insofar as it's not even an argument, per se - it's merely a statement of fact.

455 posted on 12/17/2005 2:27:42 PM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: Thatcherite
When you make a claim and are asked to back it up you should do so, or withdraw.

Quite so. If I were to assert that astrology is bunk, and that its original premises were debunked, I could back that up. Easily.

456 posted on 12/17/2005 2:28:50 PM PST by PatrickHenry (... endless horde of misguided Luddites ...)
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To: PatrickHenry

Placemarker


457 posted on 12/17/2005 2:30:27 PM PST by Thatcherite (Evolutionists should be burned at the stake)
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To: Senator Bedfellow
Simply pointing out that he cheats on his taxes, which he does, is not in and of itself fallacious. In fact, it can't be fallacious, insofar as it's not even an argument, per se - it's merely a statement of fact.

Right. In fact, Isaac Newton was apparently a genuine creep, and in some ways a total whack job. But that says nothing about his science work. Hovind, on the other hand, is apparently an all-round whack job. His "science" is a joke.

458 posted on 12/17/2005 2:32:45 PM PST by PatrickHenry (... endless horde of misguided Luddites ...)
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To: Senator Bedfellow
Oh I get it... What was the title of the article?

Tax Expert Debunks TOE.
459 posted on 12/17/2005 2:35:59 PM PST by darbymcgill
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To: darbymcgill
Ah, I see - so the real fallacy you've spotted here is the "posting on subjects not approved by darbymcgill" fallacy. Hmmm, that one must have been omitted from my rhetoric texts.

The thread's about Hovind; we're discussing Hovind. Who are you to say what can and can't be posted?

460 posted on 12/17/2005 2:40:30 PM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: Thatcherite; CarolinaGuitarman; Full Court
Your point? That Haeckel made some stupid claims? I have never even heard of the *monera* claim of Haeckel; mustn't have been very popular.

BTW, the origins of life are not part of the theory of evolution.


Oh, you mean like this one... see posts leading up to 180..
461 posted on 12/17/2005 2:41:44 PM PST by darbymcgill
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I think everyone should take a few minutes & ponder this article from Answers in Genesis, "Maintaining Creationist Integrity". What does it mean when the major YEC creationist organization (no giants of integrity themselves) feels the need to publicly distance themselves from Kent Hovind?
... AiG published a particular article entitled Arguments we think creationists should NOT use, and followed this with a related Creation magazine article Moving forward—arguments we think creationists shouldn’t use. This was not aimed at any particular person or organization, but was produced as a result of the collective wisdom of AiG’s trained scientists and other professionals, based on years of research and experience.

When an attempted critique of this AiG article appeared on Kent Hovind’s Web site, AiG was somewhat surprised (and disappointed) to note that it frequently and significantly misrepresents and/or misunderstands the statements and positions made in our carefully researched document.

In the interests of maintaining Christian/creationist integrity, we believed we had to respond to Kent Hovind’s critique (albeit with a heavy heart), particularly because of the mistakes in facts and logic which do the creationist cause no good.

Before responding to specifics, it may be worth pointing out the obvious: If these arguments don’t convince fellow creationists, why would any creationist think they are going to convince evolutionists? And it would be worth revisiting our articles hyperlinked above for our motivation in compiling these dubious arguments.

Our purpose is to encourage God’s people to avoid fallacious arguments and incorrect information that could become a stumbling block to those who have the background to understand the material. (By the way, AiG has met with Kent Hovind in the past to discuss many of the items below, including the fraudulent claims of Ron Wyatt.)

...

[Hovind says he links to AiG's website even though they don't link to his.]

We certainly promote many materials produced by other creationists, but not just because they are ‘creationists’. We also promote material by some of the Intelligent Design movement for example, on merit. There are minimum criteria of quality and science understanding. We also have difficulty with the idea of promoting sites which have various overtly bizarre ideas, not just in creation issues, but also linking creation issues with other ‘fringe’ thinking (such as arguments against paying income tax, various cancer cures, etc.) which regardless of their merits or otherwise, have nothing to do with the creation issue. Our actions in this matter are not the product of aloofness, but of caution and concern for the credibility of the creation movement as a whole.

...

One reason for such a list ["Arguments we think creationists should NOT use"] is precisely because there are many arguments still being widely used which fly in the face of ‘facts’ and reason. Sometimes this is because the people concerned are not aware of the realities involved, sometimes because they do not understand them, or because they have not bothered to really assess something for themselves. It’s often ‘easier’ to just go with the arguments which seem to ‘work’ in convincing an audience. This is why certain practices and procedures of peer-review (as discussed in this entire document) are desirable, i.e. a ‘self-critical’ process within the creation movement. It is perhaps easier for an organization composed of a substantial number of scientists and thinkers to undertake such processes than organizations which are controlled by a single individual. Nevertheless, our list was not aimed at Kent Hovind, in spite of the defensiveness in his response overall.

...[big snip]...

Unfortunately, Kent Hovind’s document repeatedly misrepresents or misunderstands not only our article, but the issues themselves. Our article was not aimed at any individual, but we plead with all creationist ‘lone wolf’ popularizers to familiarize themselves with the immense amount of good science being done by qualified (though fallible) creationist researchers, most of them not even associated with our own ministry. These are people who have shown that they are willing to be corrected, and to interact with their critics formally in peer-reviewed fashion.

We plead for all of us to swallow pride and, without sacrificing independence of thought and originality, be prepared to submit to the rigors of peer review and to the thoroughly Biblical process of ‘iron sharpening iron’. That would be real ‘working together’, not some artificial unity in which scientifically trained creationists (i.e. Bible-believing scientists) are supposed to smile sweetly while plainly wrong and even fraudulent claims are being promoted in the name of ‘Creationism’.

Such a process, recognizing the fallibility of all of us, would also delineate more clearly such things as the burden of proof in regard to various claims, and would help separate ‘shaky, flaky’ theories from reasonable speculations—i.e., legitimate hypotheses which seek to be constrained by Scripture, fact, and the faculties of rational thought with which our Creator has endowed us.


462 posted on 12/17/2005 2:44:57 PM PST by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: Art of Unix Programming by Raymond)
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To: Baraonda
Absolutely agree that one should be prepared to defend it. But, I did not disclaim all knowledge; I only disclaimed that last sentence being attributed to me, which was not.

That is just ludicrously disingenuous.

463 posted on 12/17/2005 2:45:05 PM PST by Thatcherite (Evolutionists should be burned at the stake)
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To: Alter Kaker
Yes, but you must remember the Roman Empire carefully censored things they felt hurt or embarrassed the Empire.

Some person tried by a Roman Official, executed by His cronies and supposedly raised from the dead would probably not pass the Roman censors. It is a shame while the Roman Empire imploded a bunch of ignoramuses burned down libraries and records. Who knows what kind of history and literature was lost.
464 posted on 12/17/2005 2:46:15 PM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: rollo tomasi
Yes, but you must remember the Roman Empire carefully censored things they felt hurt or embarrassed the Empire.

Yes, but that isn't evidence, that's an explanation for a lack of evidence.

465 posted on 12/17/2005 2:50:59 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: Senator Bedfellow
Ah, I see - so the real fallacy you've spotted here is the "posting on subjects not approved by darbymcgill" fallacy. Hmmm, that one must have been omitted from my rhetoric texts.

And as I see it, the logic police on these threads are doing too much profiling. They like to point out the logical flaws at their CREVO opponents but are strangely silent when the ping listers fire out some whoppers themselves.

It only took 6 posts before Hovind was called names and only 10 before he was debunked because of his tax returns and then some ping lister had the nerve to taunt the CREVO's numerous straw men.

I find these inconsistencies humorous.
466 posted on 12/17/2005 2:52:55 PM PST by darbymcgill
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To: Baraonda

Anyone that read the articles could see this footnote is a quote and it did not come from Hovind

Its understood just fine

Wolf


467 posted on 12/17/2005 2:57:45 PM PST by RunningWolf (Vet US Army Air Cav 1975)
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To: PatrickHenry
Quite so. If I were to assert that astrology is bunk, and that its original premises were debunked, I could back that up. Easily.

Now that would be the fallacy of "suppressed evidence" if I recall.
468 posted on 12/17/2005 2:58:14 PM PST by darbymcgill
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To: darbymcgill
It only took 6 posts before Hovind was called names and only 10 before he was debunked because of his tax returns...

As I said, when Hovind stops labeling anyone who disagrees with him a liar, perhaps I'll take complaints about name-calling more seriously. As for the second part, post ten never "debunked" him because of his tax returns - in fact, it doesn't really mention his theories on evolution at all. If you insist on reading things that aren't there, I don't think anyone's going to be able to help you.

469 posted on 12/17/2005 3:02:51 PM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: Alter Kaker

The reputation and a detail of events that Tacitus provided was evidence apart from a Biblical account. The reason why Jesus was not splattered all over the Roman Empire by secularist because it was forbidden and probably considered Christianity to be only about worshiping an insane Jew. Not a very popular idea to the elites who could read and write.

Also I find Books of the Bible to be highly accurate in regards to historical events. The Bible, even among secularist, should not be frowned upon in regards to it's historical accuracy.


470 posted on 12/17/2005 3:09:09 PM PST by rollo tomasi (Working hard to pay for deadbeats and corrupt politicians.)
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To: Senator Bedfellow
Then you'll be able to explain why those who post references to know scientific frauds within the TOE are ridiculed for posting straw men?

Those frauds are recognized facts, why are they not as legitimate and the tax return posts?

Do you only take seriously flaws in logic that undermine your world view?
471 posted on 12/17/2005 3:11:17 PM PST by darbymcgill
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To: darbymcgill
Then you'll be able to explain why those who post references to know scientific frauds within the TOE are ridiculed for posting straw men?

Considering that the term "straw men" has been used five times on this thread, one of which was in the article itself, three of which were by you, andthe last of which was not referring to any known scientific fraud, I guess I'm not sure why I should feel compelled to "explain" something that you're pretty clearly imagining. That is, I guess I could speculate on why you see things that aren't there, but I don't think you'd like my suggestions.

472 posted on 12/17/2005 3:16:21 PM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: Senator Bedfellow; CarolinaGuitarman
Ah, the number of strawmen that creationists can create knows no limits.

I am not a mind reader but I'm quite sure "number" does not mean one. If you want to dance, ask someone else. I was just asking for consistency and you and your ilk give me spin. The MSM would be proud.
473 posted on 12/17/2005 3:24:48 PM PST by darbymcgill
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To: XeniaSt
I started there in Mensa,

Don't think I would go there. Some of the dumbest people I have known were Mensa.

Anyway, I am just lurking, as I have truthfully never heard of Hovind, and am just watching the thread unfold. Don't have a horse to ride in this race.

474 posted on 12/17/2005 3:26:18 PM PST by chronic_loser ((Handle provided free of charge as flame bait for the neurally vacant.))
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To: darbymcgill

Begone!

475 posted on 12/17/2005 3:27:58 PM PST by balrog666 (A myth by any other name is still inane.)
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To: darbymcgill
I am not a mind reader but I'm quite sure "number" does not mean one.

I'm pretty sure a goldfish evolving into a cat isn't an example of a "known scientific fraud". You'll pardon me if I don't assign your complaints much weight.

476 posted on 12/17/2005 3:31:13 PM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: balrog666
Well okay then, be gone little b'lwag666

Back under the rock with you!!

Wolf
477 posted on 12/17/2005 3:33:36 PM PST by RunningWolf (Vet US Army Air Cav 1975)
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To: Senator Bedfellow
So you now understand why complaints about tax returns carry little weight in the EVO/CREVO argument.
478 posted on 12/17/2005 3:36:03 PM PST by darbymcgill
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To: XeniaSt
I've come to an understanding from the Anthropic principle that this universe was wonderfully formed for mankind

That's backwards from the actual anthropic principle. It's like saying voles live in my house because the house was created for them. It's even more like saying owls live in back of the house created for them because voles live in the house until they are caught and thrown out into the yard for the owls.

479 posted on 12/17/2005 3:37:16 PM PST by RightWhale (Not transferable -- Good only for this trip)
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To: darbymcgill

How much weight were you asked to assign them when considering his arguments on evolution? None. So I guess everybody's happy, right?


480 posted on 12/17/2005 3:38:46 PM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: Senator Bedfellow
So I guess everybody's happy, right?

Now if I were to speak of everybody's happiness I run the risk of committing the fallacy of drawing conclusions from incomplete evidence or reading something that ain't there as you say.

But as far a me.... I'm overjoyed... thanks for asking..
481 posted on 12/17/2005 3:50:56 PM PST by darbymcgill
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To: Stultis
Now, the Weekly World News does publish antievolutionists.

Doesn't Batboy prove evolution?

482 posted on 12/17/2005 3:52:00 PM PST by RightWingNilla
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To: darbymcgill
Common EVO tactic.... Do your own research...

Common creationist tactic - Lie & duck!

483 posted on 12/17/2005 3:52:32 PM PST by shuckmaster (An oak tree is an acorns way of making more acorns)
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To: PatrickHenry
Posted by Patrick Henry, the Creationist.

Oops, sorry! The real Patrick Henry, the Creationist, is dead.

484 posted on 12/17/2005 3:53:08 PM PST by razorbak
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To: darbymcgill

Well, there you go.


485 posted on 12/17/2005 3:59:07 PM PST by Senator Bedfellow
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To: PatrickHenry

Darwin lovers don't like to debate...every time they do, they lose. They would rather scream and yell and hide behind the status quo...hateful atheists ...


486 posted on 12/17/2005 4:01:08 PM PST by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: shuckmaster

Can you honestly reply that you've never read, heard, or seen posted evidence that some of Darwin's original postulations have been debunked or "revised to fit current knowledge"?


487 posted on 12/17/2005 4:02:08 PM PST by darbymcgill
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To: RightWingNilla
Doesn't Batboy prove evolution?

Yet another joke at the expense of the Clown Prince of AstroPhysics, aka the Freeper formerly know as "medved" (and about 20 other screen names since that one) and his faithful mascot, Splifford the ASCII Bat?

488 posted on 12/17/2005 4:07:34 PM PST by longshadow
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To: razorbak
The real Patrick Henry, the Creationist, is dead.

So they tell me. It may interest you to know that he died in 1799, sixty years before Darwin published Origin of Species (in 1859), so it's difficult to imagine how the original PH could have been anything other than a creationist. But perhaps I've missed some profound point you were trying to make.

489 posted on 12/17/2005 4:08:37 PM PST by PatrickHenry (... endless horde of misguided Luddites ...)
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To: freedumb2003
"God, I love the self-importance of the Holy Rollers. So, now 80% of all Americans are under Satan's sway? Satan is laughing all right."

I'm not important nor am I a "holy Roller". If that is how many believe evolution, then they are following satan. Yeah, he's laughing his arse off at YOU! Isn't it a pity how you must resort to name calling - "Holy Roller" to feel superior, at least for the moment.

Yeah, it's true:

Matt.7:14

[14] Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and FEW there be that find it.

Thank you for backing that statement up - 80%, you say ... .


"By getting those who profess to be closest to God (Megolomania anyway) to close their eyes to anything beyond the end of their noses, to "debate" by distorting (a form of lying) about the presented arguments, and by not using God's greatest gift -- the Human Brain -- to understand and use the tools given to us by science, Satan is registering wins up all along the Right side of the Culture wars.""

He gave each individual gifts. A brain is one of them. Like others in history, you can use it for good or use it for evil - Hitler, Darwin etc... You use it to mock Christianity, deny God and what He states about Creation. You are also quite presumptuous. I've read up on the evolving hypothesis of evolution, and found them to be wanting. They make NO sense at all and remains a hypothesis at best. Evolution is the religion for the godless and desperate who have no knowledge of objective science. Evolution defies the very laws they claim to adhere to. Evolution stands legitimate science on its head - evolution is utter nonsense.

Yes, lying, distortion ignoring the obvious are tools of the evolutionist. The Author of Science, God apparently isn't the same god you acknowledge that is if you acknowledge anyone but yourself and fellow atheists. Some day soon ... you're in for a nasty surprise - eternity where the sun doesn't shine. I feel sorry for you and hope you straighten yourself out before it is too late.
490 posted on 12/17/2005 4:11:14 PM PST by nmh (Intelligent people believe in Intelligent Design (God))
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To: Senator Bedfellow; Alter Kaker
The only one to claim it was millions of years old was an Aussie creationist named Cooper in the journal Ex Nihilo

Watch it, sport!

Yes the 28MY estimate is Cooper's, and it was published in ex Nihlo, but Cooper's a bloody Pom!

He is a/the leading light of the Creation Science Movement - it and him can be located at

Bill Cooper
Creation Science Movement
Portsmouth
United Kingdom

His principal claim to fame appears as the author of After The Flood

Bill Cooper is a council member and trustee of the Creation Science Movement. He is married with two daughters and has recently been awarded an Honours degree by Kingston University (England) for combined studies in the History of Ideas (Religion, Philosophy and Political Theory) and English Literature. He has lectured on The Table of Nations, under the auspices of the CSM, in Germans, Belgium and at many venues in England including Leeds University.

He has written numerous articles for the Creation Science Movement and for the Creation Ex Nihilo Technical Journal published by the Creation Science Foundation of Australia, on the Table of Nations (The Early History of Man series), the historical Jonah and other subjects.

This book shows how European history can be traced right back to the flood and the descendants of Japheth, through contemporary accounts and a table of nations.
More Creteanist sources claim he is alos an archaelogist with a Th.D and a Ph.D.

Tried for a better photo, but do you know how many middleaged heavy-set Bill Coopers there are on Google?

491 posted on 12/17/2005 4:13:56 PM PST by Oztrich Boy (so natural to mankind is intolerance in whatever they really care about - J S Mill)
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To: Coyoteman
Hovind whines about how no one will debate him in a verbal setting where his 30 second sound bites take an hour to debunk, but I have yet to see him debate someone on a forum such as this where the audience is more science savvy than he is and his points can be torn apart as easily by the audience as it can by his official opponent.

Hovind, if you are listening, I challenge you to debate the scientists on this forum. I sure we could find enough scientists here that are willing to have a go at you. Let's see how well you do against specialists in the fields your 'science' putatively includes.
492 posted on 12/17/2005 4:14:24 PM PST by b_sharp (Science adjusts theories to fit evidence, creationism distorts evidence to fit the Bible.)
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To: darbymcgill

no. please give me an example.


493 posted on 12/17/2005 4:14:47 PM PST by shuckmaster (An oak tree is an acorns way of making more acorns)
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To: Ichneumon
Just because *you're* entirely ignorant of the evidence doesn't mean it isn't there.

..And just because *you're* sadly duped into believing such cultist B.S. doesn't mean it's evidence for anything.

494 posted on 12/17/2005 4:15:03 PM PST by sirchtruth (Words Mean Things...)
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To: Coyoteman; CarolinaGuitarman
Some day soon ... you're in for a nasty surprise - eternity where the sun doesn't shine.
490 posted on 12/17/2005 7:11:14 PM EST by nmh

Possibly another keeper. But the list is already long enough. I'll wait for something really spectacular.

495 posted on 12/17/2005 4:16:25 PM PST by PatrickHenry (... endless horde of misguided Luddites ...)
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To: Waywardson
But it's the "charge" that matters....

LOL!It's amazing to see how this cult of evolution takes over seemingly intelligent minds...

I've never seen so many smart people duped buy such obvious crappola, that which they would throw logic "holy" out the window!

496 posted on 12/17/2005 4:19:14 PM PST by sirchtruth (Words Mean Things...)
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To: sirchtruth

LOL!It's amazing to see how this cult of evolution takes over seemingly intelligent minds...

It is amazing. How does this happen?

497 posted on 12/17/2005 4:21:59 PM PST by ml1954 (NOT the disruptive troll seen frequently on CREVO threads)
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To: shuckmaster; darbymcgill
Keywords left out in that reply

honesty integrity, or perhaps in the place of those words just plain ignorance and stupidity.

Wolf
498 posted on 12/17/2005 4:22:17 PM PST by RunningWolf (Vet US Army Air Cav 1975)
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To: PatrickHenry
where the sun doesn't shine

Barrow?

499 posted on 12/17/2005 4:23:49 PM PST by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: longshadow

500


500 posted on 12/17/2005 4:23:56 PM PST by PatrickHenry (... endless horde of misguided Luddites ...)
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