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Dennis Prager Divorcing
Dennis Prager.com ^ | December 30, 2005

Posted on 12/30/2005 10:21:26 AM PST by onedoug

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To: mcg1969

I don't think I am projecting. I know divorce has to happen sometimes. But I believe he is rationalizing when it comes to the harm of divorce on kids. I love men and am married to a great FReeper of a guy.


51 posted on 12/30/2005 11:49:48 AM PST by Yaelle
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To: Nonstatist
I must say, however, that thats a tough resume for a "professional moralizer" to have.

Moses was a murderer; and the Apostle Paul was complicit in murder. So I guess we should ignore them too.

52 posted on 12/30/2005 11:50:26 AM PST by mcg1969
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To: taxesareforever

Exactly. That is why he is taking all these "puff-me-up" calls. He wants to be Mr. Morality L.A. but he will not accept condemnation for not staying with his wife until the kids are up and out.


53 posted on 12/30/2005 11:51:12 AM PST by Yaelle
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To: Yaelle

I am glad to hear that! I was responding in particular about your quickness to suggest that he might be leaving his wife for another.

I respect your disagreement with Dennis on the effect of divorce on children.


54 posted on 12/30/2005 11:52:09 AM PST by mcg1969
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To: Yaelle
Again, things are seldom as simple and straightforward as one spouse cheating and the other spouse being a shocked, innocent victim cold-cocked by reality.

A cheater is easy to deride - they break one of the big promises they made in their lives. That being said, the simple fact that someone was alienated by their spouse and took up with someone else doesn't necessarily mean that the cheated-upon spouse is entirely innocent, or even deserving of undue sympathy.

Very few people set out to cheat on their spouses. Almost every person who tells a jealous spouse to 'trust me,' is more likely than not sincere - when they say those words. The decision is seldom to cheat on their spouse, but much more often to indulge in their lust for someone else. It's a bad thing, I agree. It's not a 'good guy-bad guy' thing where the cheater is automatically the bad guy, I am afraid.

This is a minefield because a lot of people can't cope with the fact that someone can rightfully reject their current spouse because of deficiencies in their character, and yet execute that rejection in a very bad way by indulging in extramartial relationship with someone else.

I have always suspected that there is almost no clarity on this issue because people can't cope with the fact that they aren't being a good spouse themselves, and can't cope with the idea of being (rightfully) rejected themselves. Just my gut feeling on the matter.

I think divorce is bad for kids, but I never thought it was bad for marriage. I think Dennis has taken a similar posture over the years.

I admit, I am in nyc and not listening to his show today. I'll be sure to catch it next week, though.
55 posted on 12/30/2005 11:53:17 AM PST by HitmanLV (Listen to my demos for Savage Nation contest: http://www.geocities.com/mr_vinnie_vegas/index.html)
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To: mcg1969

How unsurprisingly ignorant you are>


56 posted on 12/30/2005 11:53:24 AM PST by Misterioso
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To: Misterioso
Well by all means, Misterioso, you are welcome to actually join the discussion instead of just launching attacks on Dennis and myself.
57 posted on 12/30/2005 11:54:11 AM PST by mcg1969
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To: Nonstatist

Not at all. The fact that a person is in a bad marriage that is worth getting out of doesn't necessarily compromise their ability to see moral issues clearly.

I think the main problem is that a lot of folks look at divorce as immoral. That clearly isn't necessarily so. There's the disconnect.


58 posted on 12/30/2005 11:54:39 AM PST by HitmanLV (Listen to my demos for Savage Nation contest: http://www.geocities.com/mr_vinnie_vegas/index.html)
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To: mcg1969
I suppose you think that people who say they're against homosexuality are repressed gays, too?

Nope! LOL.

Dennis has devoted many shows to the science that a man's sex drive is all but uncontrollable. He is fascinated by it. I always figured that his first marriage broke up by his cheating. He on the one hand loves Judaism and moral values, and on the other, seems to want external proof that when he goes wrong, it's still OK.

59 posted on 12/30/2005 11:54:42 AM PST by Yaelle
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To: Yaelle

Actually, Dennis has made it very clear many times that he thinks a good woman's consistent presence in their life has a civilizing and domesticating effect on men.

I think he is right.

I never got the sense his first marriage broke up because he cheated. Where did that come from?


60 posted on 12/30/2005 11:56:22 AM PST by HitmanLV (Listen to my demos for Savage Nation contest: http://www.geocities.com/mr_vinnie_vegas/index.html)
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To: mcg1969

Wow -- that is one awesome *link to the world* you provided. Thanks!


61 posted on 12/30/2005 11:56:37 AM PST by GretchenM (Hooked on porn and hating it? Visit http://www.theophostic.com .)
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To: mcg1969
You can't be telling me about how important marriage and religious "values" are to Western Society, blah blah blah , if you can't keep a (ie. your SECOND) marriage together, where the major problem is they were "growing apart"!?

Everybody's "human". but I don't want to hear lifestyle "advice", day after day, from someone who can talk the talk, but not walk the walk.

62 posted on 12/30/2005 11:56:39 AM PST by Nonstatist
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To: mcg1969

I did join, with the opinion that DP is phony.


63 posted on 12/30/2005 11:56:42 AM PST by Misterioso
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To: Jeff Chandler
"I have found that the folks who would take glee at the personal stumbling of conservative such as Dennis and Rush and Bennett do not like the conservative messages they broadcast, so try to use their humanity as proof of some sort of hypocrisy."

Our Constitution is based on the biblical worldview - ie: Fallen man is not basically good (even though he is capable of doing good from time to time).

We can hope for the best from each other, but plan for, and expect the worst (Caveat emptor).

Those who think that people are "basically good" and therefore human nature is capable of being "perfected" in the here and now, are all PC leftist utopian kooks who will try to use big government to make it happen if and when they are able to obtain power.

Click my screen name and scroll down to "The Emory Report" and read why our Patent Laws were set up the way they were.

64 posted on 12/30/2005 12:02:07 PM PST by Matchett-PI ( "History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid." -- Dwight Eisenhower)
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To: HitmanNY
I hear your careful explanation of how it's a dance, and not always the cheating spouse's fault, but I respectfully disagree. Let's leave off the whole subject of children, for a moment, and imagine a guy who is always rebuffed by his wife. She treats him shrewishly and never makes him feel like a man. It's been a year since she's been intimate with him. He works hard at his job and there is a lovely, wonderful, single woman in his office. They have worked alone together on many occasions. They are getting to know each other and really hit it off in ways he never did with his wife.

There you go, right? The perfect scenario. Oh, and this could be changed from husband to wife if you like.

The correct thing, the absolute moral thing to do, is for the husband to legally separate from his wife. He could try marital counseling with her first, if he so desired. But the right thing to do is NOT to cheat on the wife, to break the marital vow. Legally separate and then do what you want. That seems like a more decent thing to do.

And since Dennis Prager said just now on his show that infidelity is not involved here, maybe he is doing the decent thing.

(Oh, and I have never been involved in any sort of cheating spouse scenario. But I do see how it devastates others, and it is one of the Big Commandments.)

65 posted on 12/30/2005 12:03:23 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: Nonstatist

It's possible for a moral, clear minded person to seek a divorce (or two) in their lifetime, and remain moral and clear minded.

Why is that so difficult to understand?


66 posted on 12/30/2005 12:04:03 PM PST by HitmanLV (Listen to my demos for Savage Nation contest: http://www.geocities.com/mr_vinnie_vegas/index.html)
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To: Misterioso
I did join, with the opinion that DP is phony.

Yes, and that's what I'm talking about. How about sharing some substance. By all means, explain what you mean.

67 posted on 12/30/2005 12:04:54 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: HitmanNY
I never got the sense his first marriage broke up because he cheated. Where did that come from?

Oh, just because he has done so many shows about infidelity or men's sex drive. He even made that movie about it (I saw it in the synagogue when he showed it at a talk he gave). It showed scenarios about how difficult it is for men to turn down flirtatious offers... I can't remember the whole deal.

68 posted on 12/30/2005 12:05:31 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: Yaelle
I don't advocate cheating at all. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear.

I don't blame a spouse in the situation you raise for growing alienated from their poor spouse. I don't blame them for rejecting the poor spouse and taking a better romantic companion. Those are, I think, good things and not bad things.

I agree, the tactic of cheating is wrong. The goal of finding a better spouse is a good one, though. So the failure is one of tactics, and not of mandate. In that respect we agree - the tactic stinks.

I'm not listening to the show and am glad to hear infidelity isn't the issue. That being said, that doesn't preclude the possibility of being married to a dreadful person and rejecting them (which I do maintain is a morally defendable thing to do).

I think cheating is awful, but I don't see it as a simple dynamic of one person being good and the other being bad. I have never seen it in any instance of my life that way. I have never cheated, but I have quit on people who I think deserve being quit on.

Trust me, there is nothing wrong with quitting when appropriate.
69 posted on 12/30/2005 12:09:45 PM PST by HitmanLV (Listen to my demos for Savage Nation contest: http://www.geocities.com/mr_vinnie_vegas/index.html)
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To: Yaelle; Alouette; 1st-P-In-The-Pod; A Jovial Cad; A_Conservative_in_Cambridge; adam_az; ...

Just a fact-question, if you or anybody else can answer it:

I always assumed that a religious marriage involved a vow of permanence ("til death do us part" or words to that effect) made in the presence of God. I only recently realized that not all religious groups have such a vow, and some do not have explicit, spoken marriage vows at all!

So my question is: does a conservative Jewish wedding involve explicit vows, promises, pledges or whatever? And if so, what ar they?


70 posted on 12/30/2005 12:14:34 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (Make love. Accept no substitutes.)
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To: HitmanNY
I don't think his impending divorce will affect his clear-mindedness. I am sure he will stay the way he has been.

The difference between his divorces and Rush's is that Rush is a political and social commentator/entertainer with a somewhat obvious and somewhat loveable emotional neediness, and we can all imagine it might be tricky for him to pick the right woman, and it might be tricky for that woman to put up or keep up with Rush. I don't see him as having 100% great introspection on which woman would be a great partner for him. And he has no kids.

But I think that Dennis appears so informed and introspective of the relationships between the sexes that we do expect him to make the right choices and to put children's needs ahead of his own wants.

I have a teen boy about the age of his; of course that son is going to act tough and SAY that the divorce won't bother him. But now both his parents will probably take up with other people and his life will become very different. His parents will be oversexualizing, right when this boy needs to learn about more than just sex in male-female relationships. I do not think that because a child is a teen that his parents' marriage is meaningless in his psychosexual maturing.

71 posted on 12/30/2005 12:15:01 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: Yaelle

It really is very difficult for a male to rebuff a propositioning, very well built, attractive, and sexually agressive young woman.

Dennis isn't kidding. I feel the same way, and I have never cheated on a romantic companion.


72 posted on 12/30/2005 12:16:01 PM PST by HitmanLV (Listen to my demos for Savage Nation contest: http://www.geocities.com/mr_vinnie_vegas/index.html)
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To: HitmanNY
Trust me, there is nothing wrong with quitting when appropriate.

I kind of already said that I agree with you, like in Rush's case. I will not condone adultery but needing to leave a relationship that it harmful to your soul is OK, IF there are no children.

Sadly, if you have kids, you are stuck unless there is something too harmful to endure, like addiction, adultery, or abuse (Dr. Laura is right about at least that).

73 posted on 12/30/2005 12:18:35 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: Yaelle

I think the money line of your post is "I think that Dennis appears so informed and introspective of the relationships between the sexes that we do expect him to make the right choices and to put children's needs ahead of his own wants."

It's entirely possible that the right choice is getting a divorce in this case, that's all I am suggesting. I don't know any details, but it's certainly possible.


74 posted on 12/30/2005 12:18:39 PM PST by HitmanLV (Listen to my demos for Savage Nation contest: http://www.geocities.com/mr_vinnie_vegas/index.html)
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To: HitmanNY
IF (and I guess that's a big IF) you took a vow to your spouse to enter into a permanent bond of marriage, and you take up with somebody else (whether via adultery or via divorce and remarriage) that's immoral because it's the breaking of a vow. It's a falsehood of a particularly serious sort, like perjury. And if God was formally invoked as a witness, then it's sacrilege as well.

If there was no vow, then there was no such violation.

75 posted on 12/30/2005 12:21:08 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o (On my honor.)
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To: Yaelle

Yep. I don't take divorce lightly, especially when kids are involved.

That being said, I think it can be the best course among a set of bad courses. Depends on the situation.

Dr Laura is right about what she says. The thing is, a person can have a wonderful relationship with a spouse that suddenly goes down the crapper when, for example, one party decides that having sex with someone else is among the most important things in thier life. Rejecting that spouse (or just having the maturity to accept that you have been rejected) isn't an unspeakable catastrophe.


76 posted on 12/30/2005 12:21:47 PM PST by HitmanLV (Listen to my demos for Savage Nation contest: http://www.geocities.com/mr_vinnie_vegas/index.html)
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To: Mrs. Don-o

I agree. What does that have to do with anything, though?

As a practical matter, how can two people stay together when at least one of the persons decides they want to regularly date and have sex with their son's hunky young soccer coach, for example?

And yes, in the era of Brokeback Mountain, I suppose either spouse could be so smitten. :-)


77 posted on 12/30/2005 12:24:36 PM PST by HitmanLV (Listen to my demos for Savage Nation contest: http://www.geocities.com/mr_vinnie_vegas/index.html)
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To: HitmanNY
and remain moral and clear minded

Ya, and an honest taxpayer, good bridge player and someone who cuts his lawn regularly.

But the guy is a public speaker, preacher, polemicist. Would anyone listen to his spiel if he wasn't religious, or based on his theology? If he was just a psychologist, no one would listen to him, and he wouldnt have much to say. You don't have to be a theocrat, just not an obvious relativistic hypocrite, is all.

78 posted on 12/30/2005 12:25:47 PM PST by Nonstatist
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To: Mrs. Don-o
So my question is: does a conservative Jewish wedding involve explicit vows, promises, pledges or whatever? And if so, what ar they?

Absolutely. A Jewish marriage is a formal, written contract (called a ketubah), signed, with witnesses, on the wedding day. This webpage explains both the traditional ketubah text (used by the Orthodox) and the Conservative, which Dennis Prager would have promised. See the Lieberman Clause, which was added to the traditional tex in case of civil divorce.

79 posted on 12/30/2005 12:28:10 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: Nonstatist

Dennis has never been a strong opponent of divorce. I don't know where this idea comes from but certainly not from listening to his radio show.

What is relativistic about him? What makes him a hypocrite? Especially since he is not a strong critic of divorce?


80 posted on 12/30/2005 12:31:19 PM PST by HitmanLV (Listen to my demos for Savage Nation contest: http://www.geocities.com/mr_vinnie_vegas/index.html)
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To: Nonstatist

Exactly. How can he teach Torah every week, and claim to be religious, and treat his kids as though divorce was something OK in their lives? That, as he said today, in the vast number of cases it wasn't even harmful to them? He also said something like "I will never trust any sociological statistics again," which, if said on any other day, may have been a fair thing to do, but said TODAY in this context, it sounds like rationalization.


81 posted on 12/30/2005 12:31:54 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: Bear_Slayer
As requested...

Dennis Prager

82 posted on 12/30/2005 12:34:23 PM PST by Zeppo
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To: HitmanNY
It's entirely possible that the right choice is getting a divorce in this case, that's all I am suggesting. I don't know any details, but it's certainly possible.

Well, I am not in Dennis's bedroom [although, now that he's available... LOL - JUST KIDDING], so you could well be right. I will keep a lookout for him in the public eye and if he's spotted soon with a plumped-lip-and-boobs bimbo, I am coming after you, Mr Hitman!!! :)

83 posted on 12/30/2005 12:34:37 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: Zeppo

"Hmmm, that photographer has a nice rack... Too bad I am married and a radio moralist..."

84 posted on 12/30/2005 12:36:12 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: Yaelle
I always figured that his first marriage broke up by his cheating.

You know, I think it's kind of disturbing that you would make such assumptions about people!

85 posted on 12/30/2005 12:36:24 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: Yaelle

Haha! ;-)


86 posted on 12/30/2005 12:36:35 PM PST by HitmanLV (Listen to my demos for Savage Nation contest: http://www.geocities.com/mr_vinnie_vegas/index.html)
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To: Yaelle

Wow, you are really disturbed.


87 posted on 12/30/2005 12:36:58 PM PST by mcg1969
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To: Matchett-PI

The idea that man is inherently good, a "Noble Savage", is very old indeed, and was expressed most famously by Rousseau. It is the staple of modern muddled moral thinking, leaching its sillines down to even children's books and films. (How many times have children been taught to "follow your heart"?)

Human beings are basically motivated by immediate self-interest. It is the duty of religion, not the government, to encourage our elevation to higher meaning in life.


88 posted on 12/30/2005 12:37:58 PM PST by Jeff Chandler (Peace Begins in the Womb)
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To: mcg1969

You are correct, I did misread the post.
Does anyone know the reason for the divorce? I think it is sad. Divorce is sad in most cases as usually only one party wants the divorce, rarely is it mutual.


89 posted on 12/30/2005 12:38:09 PM PST by Burlem
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To: mcg1969
You know, I think it's kind of disturbing that you would make such assumptions about people!

I know. That's why they didn't give me my own radio show. :) But I don't think that when I hear of a marriage breaking up, in general. After about 3 of his hours devoted to male sexuality, it just kind of occurred to me that his past might have been why he focused there.

90 posted on 12/30/2005 12:38:16 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: HitmanNY
Dennis regularly uses religion to form his opinions and his desired outcomes for society. No problem.

Howerver, scripture does give the examples that divorce may be permissible. If his situation fails that test, then that makes it an issue that he should be taken to task.

Simply stating that all make errors or sin doesn't excuse it. And if this is for non scriptural reasons and if he's the one who is advocating it, then he is just as guilty as some of those who he decries day in and day out.

91 posted on 12/30/2005 12:39:28 PM PST by joesbucks
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To: mcg1969
Wow, you are really disturbed.

Either that, or you are lacking a sense of humor. Hard to tell.

92 posted on 12/30/2005 12:39:59 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: Jeff Chandler
I can't help but think that such an ego would be incompatible with a successful marriage, unless the partner was a total wimp.

I tend to think the opposite would be true -- that only a person with a strong, healthy ego him/herself could be comfortable in a relationship with another strong ego. Weak, insecure egos are generally behind relationship problems. Those with confident egos can brush quite a lot off like so much water off a duck. I'd rather be married to a guy with a big, strong ego any day.

93 posted on 12/30/2005 12:40:41 PM PST by Finny (God continue to Bless President G.W. Bush with wisdom, popularity, safety and success.)
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To: IRememberElian

Your comment says a lot about YOU!


94 posted on 12/30/2005 12:40:55 PM PST by winner3000
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To: Burlem
Does anyone know the reason for the divorce?

He didn't say, but he did imply it was "far" from infidelity.

95 posted on 12/30/2005 12:41:00 PM PST by Yaelle
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To: joesbucks

Dennis has consistently been frank and honest about his position on divorce. And regardless of one's position, all somebody has to have to be in a divorce situation is a spouse who doesn't want to be your spouse anymore.

Scripture or not, as a practical matter it's hard to make a go of a marriage with a wife who suddenly decides she doesn't want to breathe the same air as you do.

A person can be a decent spouse and find themseleves in that situation. I can't imagine God holding divorce against a person when it was his spouse who flatly and matter-of-factly decided to leave them, for whatever reason.


96 posted on 12/30/2005 12:42:52 PM PST by HitmanLV (Listen to my demos for Savage Nation contest: http://www.geocities.com/mr_vinnie_vegas/index.html)
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To: Finny
I'd rather be married to a guy with a big, strong ego any day.

I won't touch that line, but I'll bet others here will, LOL!

97 posted on 12/30/2005 12:42:53 PM PST by Jeff Chandler (Peace Begins in the Womb)
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To: Finny

I have a very strong personality (so I have been told) and tend to be happiest with very dominant, strong women. Go figure! :-)


98 posted on 12/30/2005 12:43:57 PM PST by HitmanLV (Listen to my demos for Savage Nation contest: http://www.geocities.com/mr_vinnie_vegas/index.html)
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To: Yaelle

I don't agree with your assumptions. Prager travels around a lot. His wife may simply be getting tired of it and wanted him to stay home with her. It will be a friendly divorce. I knew a guy like that who flew around all the time for business reasons. He finally got tired of it and stayed put in a different job and re-married his former wife and kids. All a woman wants is a man to be with her. All these business/media/political jobs cause divorces left and right.


99 posted on 12/30/2005 12:43:58 PM PST by BobS
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To: HitmanNY
Again, my position is IF he is the instigator and IF it is not for a reason that is scriptural.

As a moralist, (his words from his web site) I would hate to be on the wrong side of God when the Bible says God hates divorce.

100 posted on 12/30/2005 12:44:13 PM PST by joesbucks
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