Prove Christ exists, judge orders priest

Times Online UK ^ | January 3, 2006 | Richard Owen

[montag813]

Prove "global warming" exists.

[Ohioan from Florida]

Hmmm! I guess I was wrong! Thanks for the link!

[AnAmericanMother]

Do you have a source for the four Gosples being eyewitness accounts?

Well, there's plenty of internal evidence in the Gospels to that effect . . . e.g. John 19:35.

But C.S. Lewis has pointed out an interesting proof that does not depend upon the good faith (or cunning) of the authors of the Gospels. He points out that they are written in a colloquial, somewhat rough, reportorial style, and that they contain a lot of minutiae of the sort that you acquire by observation (e.g. Jesus "doodling" in the sand in John 8:6).

If somebody had set out to start a new religion by making it up out of whole cloth, they would have followed the more high-flown and rhetorical models of the classical authors, to give the account more credence (from their society's point of view.) In other words, if the Gospels are fiction and not factual reporting, they anticipated the style of the naturalistic 20th century novel by about 2000 years.

[BenLurkin]

There are many ancients who have less evidence for their historical existence than does our Lord.

[AnAmericanMother]

I think what you're thinking about is not necessarily wrong, just a different source.

Orthodox Halachic law does require male witnesses, but that has largely grown up since Jesus's time (and the destruction of the Temple).

[RichInOC]

Okay, especially integrity-challenged lawyer.

:-D )))

[NYer]

Catholic Ping
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list

[InvisibleChurch]

the koran was written 3 generations (700ad) after the life of Mohhamed ended (app 630ad) ... bet the judge doesn't argue any problems of integrity about that

[BenLurkin]

How odd that a court decides in advance that the Gospels are not evidence.

No chance of a fair trial - again.

Of course there is also Josephus: http://www.josephus-1.com/

[bigsigh]

I didn't say the Gospels were fiction. I asked about a source that they were written by eyewitnesses. I'm a l;azy researcher, but I recall my readings that they were written at the end of the first century and in the second. I welcome evidence to the contrary.

[bigsigh]

PS: I have read several authors of fiction who wrote in the style as you described, as if they were there or eyewitness.

[Pete from Shawnee Mission]

"12 men did not go out to convert people to a lie.."

With the exception of John, the other Apostles all died violent, in many cases, excruciating deaths. In most cases they probably could have avoided execution by stating that Christ did not, in fact rise from the dead. Their witness to the death is one of the greatest evidences in support of Christ's resurrection.

[Albion Wilde]

Italy has its own version of the 9th Circuit, I see.

LOL!! Sadly, Italy has had a long flirtation with communism and had a well-established communist party back in the 50s and 60s, when we were fighting communism tooth and nail via the Cold War. My personal observation is that no political party can take firm root in Italy's culture; however, many poisonous ideologies have done so since WWII, such as fascism, socialism, feminism and atheism.

[AnAmericanMother]

1st century? The only one I can think of that's close is Apuleius, and he's 2nd century.

[bigsigh]

thanx

[AnAmericanMother]

John was the Beloved Disciple, and took Mary into his home after the Crucifixion. There's one eyewitness. Matthew was the tax collector personally called by Christ. There's another.

Luke was St. Paul's secretary. Not an eyewitness, but took down the testimony of many eyewitnesses in his capacity as scribe to a very active Apostle. But, as I said earlier, much eyewitness testimony is taken down by another rather than written by the eyewitness himself (e.g. Tacitus and Pliny the Younger).

Here is a site that goes into excruciating detail regarding the historicity and authorship of the Gospels. From my observation, the author has a good working knowledge of the classical texts as well as the Church Fathers.

[trimom]

That's one of those questions you really have to be careful about asking.....all the lightning and earthquakes that could be yours, just for asking.....

[SeaBiscuit]

Rene Descartes

[crz]

Lets get out the writtings of Pilate and see if he really was real.

[kenavi]

If somebody had set out to start a new religion by making it up out of whole cloth, they would have followed the more high-flown and rhetorical models of the classical authors, to give the account more credence.

It would indeed be a GREAT AUTHOR to have created the Gospel life of Jesus as a fiction, and a MIRACLE that it would turn into such a "best-seller".

It is the deniers who are not dealing scientifically, because they are not interested in the truth, but rather to torment the believers. The deniers here are very similar to the holocaust-deniers, who are denying something much closer to our time when survivors are still around.