Posted on 02/18/2006 1:56:49 AM PST by gobucks
MADISON, Wis. -- Two Democratic lawmakers introduced a bill to ban public schools from teaching "intelligent design" as science, saying "pseudo-science" should have no place in the classroom.
The proposal is the first of its kind in the country, the National Conference of State Legislatures said.
The measure would require science curriculums to describe only natural processes and follow definitions from the National Academy of Sciences.
Its sponsor, Rep. Terese Berceau, acknowledged the measure faces an uphill fight in a legislature where Republicans control both houses.
Berceau said science education is under attack across the country as proponents of intelligent design promote alternatives to Darwinian evolution. Intelligent design holds that details in nature are so complex they are best explained as products of a designer, not only unguided natural selection of mutations as with Darwin.
Critics say intelligent design is thinly disguised religion that lacks any basis in science. In December, a federal judge in Pennsylvania outlawed a school district's policy of reading a statement to classes citing intelligent design options.
(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...
Yes, it didn't take long for me to finally inject some facts into a thread after you guys had been posting your attacks and distortions and insults uninterrupted for 30+ posts.
Hey, is that a beam in your eye?
I do not deny that profit motive might stimulate some discovery. But it can and does corrupt science. True science is about accepting negative findings as well, requires impartiality, willingness to adopt opponents views and not being influenced by material incentives.
Same is with political correctness, today scientists are more and more dependent on good will of their sponsors. Asserting unpopular idea often mean end of scientific career.
Of course not. Don't be absurd.
Do you advocate threatening your fellow citizens with the sheriff's sale of their home or business if they refuse to pay for subjecting children to evolution?
If having your kids taught science bothers you, feel free to send them to a private school.
Remember there are real bullets in those guns on the hip.
Of course.
Is the teaching of evolution to children Sooooooo important that parents and citizens should be threatened by police action?
I never advocated that, nor has anyone else I've ever heard of. Spare us your straw man fallacies.
( By the way, I am a supporter of evolution but I am not about to advocate police action against my fellow citizens.)
Nor am I.
"...but in a world where anti-gun zealots decided to try to destroy gun manufacturers with endless waves of malicious lawsuits, something had to be done to bring some sanity back to the situation."
Endless waves of malicious lawsuits...
Nice metaphor. And illogically applied - for ID folks are not bringing on the lawsuits - the evos, however, with great zeal, are.
Properly applied, in fact, government education itself is the expression of punitive damages of earlier endless waves of lawsuits that were NOT countered, were NOT confronted w/ "some" sanity.
But you know this already. I honestly like the tomes which are called 'posts' that you provide, btw. Would you please provide a post regarding just how homeschoolers should be 'regulated' regarding evolution?
"at least with public schools, kids are exposed to a lot of differing viewpoints. Imagine a future where half of the population has been homeschooled in an echo-chamber of liberal propaganda, without being exposed to other students or teachers who can make the case for other worldviews.
Public schools are not the source of the problem -- lack of parent involvement in their kids' schools is the problem."
Lack of Parent Involvment is the blame? So, logically, rationally, you are stating that not only is Gov't monopoly education the best way to furnish the minds of kids, but that the SOURCE of the problem is the Parents??????
Democrat, I accuse thee!!!!!!!!! (Fred, go fetch me a few bundles of firewood).
Honestly, if it weren't so familiar it would be tragic. But you can type these words w/o a shred of recognition of what you are actually stating. Why is it that I have a strong hunch you have not attended a standard run-of-the-mill school anywhere?
Your copy of Rousseau Unabridged must be tattered and stained indeed ...
Things like this just prove one thing: unless you support atheism, affirmative action, abortion, homosexuality, pacifism, multiculturalism, or rabid environmentalism there's no reason to vote for a Democrat.
If I have ever been "extraordinarily caustic" with anyone who wasn't themselves already being either obnoxious or spreading major falsehoods, point it out and I'll be glad to apologize.
Don't you think so many links dumped on someone will be widely viewed as a diversionary tactic
No, I think it will help people realize which side of this debate actually has the facts on its side, and a hell of a lot of them. The anti-evolutionists are fond of dishonestly trying to paint a picture of evolutionary biology being nothing but an empty shell, just a desired belief wrapped in suppositions. They frequently make baldfaced lies about how there are "no" transitional fossils, "no evidence" for evolution, blah blah blah. In response to that, it's entirely appropriate to give a small taste of the utterly vast amount of evidence and research that actually underlies evolutionary biology, in order to demonstrate just how enormous of a "Big Lie" the anti-evolution propaganda actually is.
(i.e. do you think anyone actually reads so many links?)
Yes, many people do -- the people who actually want to learn. Unfortunately, this almost never includes the anti-evolutionists, who not only have failed to bother to learn the first thing about this topic before they spout off endlessly about it, but who also actively *avoid* learning anything that might challenge their comfortable fictions and bring them to rethink anything.
I'll tell you what, I will look over these transitional fossil links of yours,
I'm very happy to hear that. I don't post them just to exercise my fingers, I *do* provide them in order to provide enlightenment for anyone who cares to look further into this issue.
but you must know it will take me some time,
Of course.
and if I find them fraudulent, will you be anywhere around for me to talk with, or will you just dump even longer lists of links on me once I'm done with this task?
I'll be around.
Finally, I will say that if you really want to win this debate, you should be able to concisely list your points.
I wish that were the case, but anything short enough to earn the label "concise" begins to approach just declaring that something is so. There are more than enough "is so, is not" discussions on this forum. Sooner or later someone has to actually make a case and show support for their position, and that simply can't be done in a few short sentences. Furthermore, science usually deals with somewhat complex topics, and can't be adequately covered in half a paragraph, and ultimately science comes down to not proclamations or declarations, but about the *evidence*, and for any well-established field of science there is a *very* large amount of that.
Now as I promised, I will go and start hunting down all these links of yours, but heavens knows this will take me all day.
I understand.
I hope that wasn't your plan all along, or I will feel as if I'd been had by your "invitation"!!
No, it wasn't. My "plan" was to demonstrate that the frequent claims (by anti-evolutionists) of evolutionary biology having "no evidence" or "lacking support", etc. are a "Big Lie" of enormous proportions, and to show that on the contrary, there really are mind-boggling vast volumes of support for evolutionary biology. I've been studying this field for over three decades, and still I've only scratched the surface of the depth of the evidence. Any time I get curious about a particular corner of the field (the other day, the topic of mosquito evolution came up, for example), I can spend days digging deep on that one narrow focus, and still never come close to hitting bottom. It's like exploring a library the size of Nebraska.
This is part of the reason I have little patience for the folks (and there seem to be endless waves of them) who cavalierly blow off the entire field as "nonsense" while declaring that it's just an empty shell with no support whatsoever, or who think that despite having no real knowledge of the field they can demolish all of a century of research in evolutionary biology with some "refutation" they thought up on their lunch break.
Lack of Parent Involvment is the blame?
Yes. If parents don't monitor their kids' schools, and take an active role in shaping the education that is provided there, they're going to have a problem no matter *what* kind of school they're parked in.
So, logically, rationally, you are stating that not only is Gov't monopoly education the best way to furnish the minds of kids,
You have *really* got to work on your reading comprehension. I said nothing of the sort.
but that the SOURCE of the problem is the Parents??????
It is when the parents don't take charge of their kids' education, yes. If the parents aren't paying attention, the kids can be just as poorly educated in a private school as a public school.
Democrat, I accuse thee!!!!!!!!! (Fred, go fetch me a few bundles of firewood).
Oh, right, of course, only a *Democrat* would think that it's critical that parents be responsible for seeing how their children are educated, eh? Do you even listen to yourself?
Honestly, if it weren't so familiar it would be tragic. But you can type these words w/o a shred of recognition of what you are actually stating. Why is it that I have a strong hunch you have not attended a standard run-of-the-mill school anywhere?
Why is it that I have a strong hunch you haven't even understood what it is I've actually written?
Your copy of Rousseau Unabridged must be tattered and stained indeed ...
Sorry, your knee-jerk preconceptions are leading you astray yet again, *and* getting in the way of your ability to see what I actually said and did not say. Enjoy your wildly wrong conclusions, you seem to get such satisfaction out of them.
And it seems that this thread is just full of folks who have substandard reading comprehension. No, I have said nothing of the sort. Learn to read, or at least stop listening to the voices in your head.
And,,,you seem content to threaten your fellow citizens with the sheriff's auction of their homes and businesses to pay for it.
Just how stupid *are* you? No, that's not what I said.
"Enjoy your wildly wrong conclusions, you seem to get such satisfaction out of them."
Hey, when I encounter an NEA cheerleader here at FR, I get skeptical. I know, I know, you have not indicated you support the NEA.
Ahem anyway ... I think the beam comment applies here...
I think somehow your words would be far more trustworthy if you'd spend a bit of time indicating how folks become more conservative and vote Republican more often as a function of being exposed to the overwhelming evidence of evolution.
But, that just is not something you are known for. It is a crying shame. Just think of it. Together, we might end once and for all this fruitless conflict, and unite to attack the real enemy! Liberal Facist/Commie Democrats who would love to legalize all sexual dysfunction, and above change the age of consent laws.
Heck ... it's just a function of imagination you know.
Sort of like what one finds out during a round of golf. I forget ... are you a golfer Ichneumon??
I'm sure they'll show up. They just can't resist a good creationist bashing.
I believe in god, but not scripture. Nor do I believe in ID.
Where in the heck do you hallucinate that I said any such thing?
then I advise you to visit the Homeschool Legal Defense Association website. There you will find page upon page of court recorded incidents of government school bullying.
I don't doubt that at all.
Also.,.government school expenses are a significant portion of any business or home's property tax.
I strongly support voucher systems.
Just try refusing to pay the government school portion of that tax and watch what happens.
You'll get in deep legal trouble, like other "tax protestors". If you don't like your taxes, take it up with your representative in the legislature. If not enough other people agree with you and you can't get the tax law changes you want, either move to somewhere else, or suck it up. That's how representative democracies work. Not everyone gets everything they want all the time. Most people are adult enough to learn to live with it, while working to change enough people's minds to get a different vote outcome next time. But you don't get to throw a tantrum and just refuse to pay your taxes.
This are not strawman arguments.
I didn't say they were. What I *did* say was a straw man argument was the false accusation that anyone wants to teach evolution at the point of a gun. There are plenty of alternatives if you don't like your local public school -- move, send the kids to a private school, homeschool without making waves, get elected to the school board, start a grassroots effort for change, etc.
Thoughtful people will see the truth.
...and other kinds of people will get hysterical about science being taught in science classes.
Government school indoctrination is driven through police threat. That includes evolution and ID.
Feel free to send your kids to a private school, or any of many other alternatives. No one's stopping you, and no one's going to sic the police on you for it if you do it without being a loon about it.
Right, right, the creationists weren't bashing *anyone* on this thread first...
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