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War on drugs - is it really 'right'?
Newsday ^ | February 12, 2006 | Ellis Henican

Posted on 02/18/2006 6:28:37 PM PST by MRMEAN

Spending billions in taxpayer dollars with no clear progress? Inserting government agents into Americans' private lives? Holding a million men and women in prison for what are mostly nonviolent crimes?

Please, how does any of that promote the values that principled conservatives hold dear?

None of it does, of course.

But now, seemingly all of a sudden, people on the left aren't the only ones expressing doubts about America's war on (some) drugs. Some of America's most energized conservatives - activists and intellectuals on the right - are openly asking, "Isn't there a better way to deal with drug abuse than the old lock-'em-up-forever approach?"

At week's end, thousands of conservative activists gathered in Washington for the annual CPAC, the massive Conservative Police Action Conference, half pep rally and half conservative family reunion. The attendees were regaled with the usual conservative litany - warnings about illegal immigration, attacks on the liberal media, throaty calls for a muscular war on terrorism. Dick Cheney and Karl Rove revved up the crowd.

"Conservatism is the dominant political creed in America," Rove declared approvingly.

But this power group of fired-up conservatives also heard something else, a message that seemed to come as a surprise to some in the sprawling meeting room: pointed and serious questions about America's 35-year campaign to rid the nation of heroin, cocaine, marijuana and other illegal drugs.

Who'd have expected this at a CPAC meeting? Extended comments from the podium by Ethan Nadelman, executive director of the Drug Policy Alliance, a man who has been called the invisible hand of drug reform in America. A former Princeton University professor, Nadelman has guided the national fight for medical marijuana and been a key player in the battle to ease the draconian Rockefeller-era drug laws in New York.

(Excerpt) Read more at newsday.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS: dopersthinktank; georgesoros; libertarians; mrleroy; thatsmrleroytoyou; warondrugs; wod; wodlist
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To: mugs99
"I asked you for evidence that shows any success that justifies the spending of billions of tax dollars on your crusade."

And I gave it to you.

This reponse was for a different statement, but an equally ludicrous one, made by you.

301 posted on 02/22/2006 1:25:49 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: AxelPaulsenJr
"Give it up, a real waste of time and effort."

Awww. Can't I stay and play? It's so much fun to poke holes in their claims ("illegal drug use increased") -- can you believe such an ignorant statement?

302 posted on 02/22/2006 1:31:15 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: getsoutalive
Fine. Make it $4./oz. then. Hell, make it $40./oz.

Still doesn't explain why legal medical marijuana sells for $480./oz. in California, does it? Who would have predicted that?

Yet some on this board will similarly say that if marijuana were legal, it would be cheap.

303 posted on 02/22/2006 1:36:19 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: MRMEAN

Placemark bump.


304 posted on 02/22/2006 1:37:23 PM PST by Hemingway's Ghost (Spirit of '75)
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To: robertpaulsen
Yet some on this board will similarly say that if marijuana were legal, it would be cheap.

I would agree with them. The current situation in CA is not necessarily representative of what would happen were cannabis to be made completely legal. According to the feds, cannabis is not currently legal in CA, so how can you argue that the current price is comparable?

What is the profit margin on a pack of cigarettes? What makes you think that Altria or a similar company wouldn't add cannabis to their line? Prices are high because supply is constrained by current law. If it were to become completely legal, do you honestly believe that a plant that grows everywhere could command such premiums? It is the risk of arrest that is causing high prices.

305 posted on 02/22/2006 1:46:53 PM PST by getsoutalive
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To: getsoutalive
"were cannabis to be made completely legal."

Completely legal? Like milk?

Or legal, but regulated, like cigarettes? Who's to say that it won't be taxed at $200./oz.?

The pro-pot posters on this board seem to make whatever argument suits them at the time. Some say to legalize it, regulate it, and tax the hell out of it. Then you come along and say legalize it and it will be cheap.

Well, what's it gonna be, people?

"What makes you think that Altria or a similar company wouldn't add cannabis to their line?"

Will you give them immunity from lawsuits? Or should they take a hint from the tobacco companies and build up a huge contingency fund by charging what the market will bear -- and the market bears a whole bunch today, doesn't it?

306 posted on 02/22/2006 2:00:02 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen
And I gave it to you.

You gave me nothing. Your numbers come from the Household Survey. They call you on the phone and ask, "how many illegal drugs have you used in the last month?". This is not science. Now, lets look at your claim: "Illegal drug use has declined 60% since 1979". There were 496,000 illegal drug arrests in 1979. Then, in post 286, you say there were "1.5 million drug arrests last year". Where is that 60% decrease?

The 1986 legislation that funded and escalated the Drug War was named "The Drug Free America Act." Its explicit aim was to make America "drug free in 10 years".
Are we drug free? How much more money will it take to reach that goal you've failed at?

This reponse was for a different statement, but an equally ludicrous one, made by you

Again, you try to spin. My comment was a reply to another poster and specific to his comment. Not only did you take it out of context, you edited it. Shows just how dishonest you Crusaders are.

Bull$hit. Prove it, bucko.

I just did. Thanks for the help. The 1.5 million arrests you posted saved me the trouble of looking it up.

Again I ask, show me a success that justifies the tax dollars spent on your Sin War.
Prove it, Bucko!
.
307 posted on 02/22/2006 2:04:28 PM PST by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: Supernatural

LOL!


308 posted on 02/22/2006 2:12:54 PM PST by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: mugs99

These "warriors"...glad they are on the other side!

They can't think, they can't reason, they can't understand anything.

One wonders how they are able to stumble through life.


309 posted on 02/22/2006 2:23:05 PM PST by Supernatural (Lay me doon in the caul caul groon, whaur afore monie mair huv gaun)
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To: mugs99
"There were 496,000 illegal drug arrests in 1979. Then, in post 286, you say there were "1.5 million drug arrests last year"."

Ah. So you think there's a correlation between arrests and use?

I didn't say arrests decreased. I said use decreased.

"Again I ask, show me a success that justifies the tax dollars spent on your Sin War."

Most kids smoke marijuana as their illicit drug of choice. Marijuana use is down. Less kids are smoking.

And that's worth one half of one percent of the federal budget. That makes twice now that I've answered your question.

310 posted on 02/22/2006 2:48:52 PM PST by robertpaulsen
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To: robertpaulsen

You live in a different world.


311 posted on 02/22/2006 3:00:05 PM PST by I_BE_THE_ONE
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To: robertpaulsen

There ought to be an island these people can go to where they can smoke all the weed they want and not endanger the rest of us or corrupt out children. Of course, someone would have to support this island, because no one there would want to do any work.


312 posted on 02/22/2006 3:18:24 PM PST by attiladhun2 (evolution has both deified and degraded humanity)
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To: robertpaulsen
I didn't say arrests decreased. I said use decreased.

If drug use decreased 60% from 1979, how could there possibly be 1.5 million illegal drug arrests last year?

Most kids smoke marijuana as their illicit drug of choice. Marijuana use is down. Less kids are smoking.

How can that possibly be? You guys told us that teen use of marijuana would skyrocket in California if we passed the medical marijuana initiative. You warned us that "carnage on the highways" and "kids hooked on hard drugs" would be the result of relaxing marijuana prohibition. You were wrong. Teen use went down. Teen use of all illegal drugs has gone down everywhere marijuana laws have been relaxed.
You want to claim that as a drug war success?

And that's worth one half of one percent of the federal budget. That makes twice now that I've answered your question

You still haven't answered the question. You still have not shown a decrease in anything that can be attributed to the Sin War.

Since you obviosly can't justify the expenditure, we may as well move on.
The Commerce Clause of the Constitution now trumps the Constitution itself. That was done to enforce marijuana prohibition. We are now the property of the US government with no right to self determination.

How do you justify that?
.
313 posted on 02/22/2006 3:18:42 PM PST by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: MRMEAN
ANOTHER TROLL LOOKING TO BE ZOTTED!
314 posted on 02/22/2006 3:28:01 PM PST by Minutemen ("It's a Religion of Peace")
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To: robertpaulsen
Completely legal? Like milk?

The libertarian in me says legal like lettuce (milk is seriously regulated in many markets)

Or legal, but regulated, like cigarettes? Who's to say that it won't be taxed at $200./oz.?

But I would settle for legal like cigarettes as long as people can grow their own. Can't help you with the taxes, govts. do all kinds of crazy things.

Then you come along and say legalize it and it will be cheap.

Legalize it and it will be cheap (taxes aside). The free market guarantees that anything as easy to create just about anywhere on the planet will be cheap.

315 posted on 02/22/2006 3:44:22 PM PST by getsoutalive
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To: robertpaulsen
The pro-pot posters on this board seem to make whatever argument suits them at the time. Some say to legalize it, regulate it, and tax the hell out of it. Then you come along and say legalize it and it will be cheap.

Well, what's it gonna be, people?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Let's leave it just like it is. Ain't it wonderful? We've got the whole underworld smuggling, killing and laundering U.S. currency.

Without having lived in the contraband substance world - you couldn't understand the nuanced systems of relationships and distribution channels. It's really like one large multilevel marketing scheme that can change directions of flow in short order. Then when anyone is "busted" and branded with some label that handicaps employment opportunities, what might be the vocation of choice? - - - - - Hey, can you help me move these baggies of (your choice)?

316 posted on 02/22/2006 4:36:59 PM PST by winston2 (In matters of necessity let there be unity, in matters of doubt liberty, and in all things charity:)
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To: getsoutalive
What is the markup on cigarettes?

Do you get loaded on cigarettes?

317 posted on 02/22/2006 5:52:35 PM PST by Mojave
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To: getsoutalive

Notice how your questions are convienently ignored and the subject changed.

That is a way of life with some of these birds.


318 posted on 02/22/2006 6:01:40 PM PST by Supernatural (Lay me doon in the caul caul groon, whaur afore monie mair huv gaun)
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To: robertpaulsen
Heroin use (%) has been flat. Cocaine use dropped 70% (from 2.6% to .7%). Marijuana use dropped 64% (from 13.2% to 4.7%). ALL illicit drug use dropped 60% (from 14.1% to 5.9%).

Don't you get it? They want it go up.

Drug use equals freedom, more drug use equals more freedom.

319 posted on 02/22/2006 6:01:48 PM PST by Mojave
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To: getsoutalive
In an environment of perfect liberty, winston2 is still missing the costs of fertilizer, land and labor. So yes, I believe he is mistaken. However, the CA medical cannabis environment is far perfect liberty, as you well know. Next question.

Yes, I did leave out fertilizer, land and labor.

The reason for leaving out fertilizer is that cannabis will grow on the most marginal of land and doesn't need notable amounts of fertilizer. Even if it did, the cost per plant would be in the small numbers of pennies.

The reason that I don't mention land is that we live in a land rich nation. A few patio "pots" would grow a years supply for anyone.

As far as "labor" It falls clearly under the heading labor of love.

320 posted on 02/22/2006 6:08:09 PM PST by winston2 (In matters of necessity let there be unity, in matters of doubt liberty, and in all things charity:)
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To: robertpaulsen
Are you looking for perfect liberty or real-life legalization?

Bingo!

I am looking for liberty. It's the second item mentioned in my tag line.

Liberty is one of the things that I do my very best to guarantee every other citizen.

It is also part of that famous thing our federal government is supposed to guarantee us citizens -

Life , Liberty, and Pursuit of Happiness

For me and 10's of millions of other good citizens the pursuit of good quality cannabis is one of our pursuits of happiness.

Will you help end the federal war against U.S. citizens who enjoy cannabis?

321 posted on 02/22/2006 6:20:16 PM PST by winston2 (In matters of necessity let there be unity, in matters of doubt liberty, and in all things charity:)
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To: Supernatural
One wonders how they are able to stumble through life

LOL!
I have no doubt they have their nasty little secrets.
.
322 posted on 02/22/2006 6:22:15 PM PST by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: winston2

Drug use equals freedom, more drug use equals more freedom.


323 posted on 02/22/2006 6:23:22 PM PST by Mojave
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To: winston2; mugs99; getsoutalive

If the "warriors" had their way, anyone using cannibas would be hanged, shot or electrocuted.


324 posted on 02/22/2006 6:25:51 PM PST by Supernatural (Lay me doon in the caul caul groon, whaur afore monie mair huv gaun)
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To: robertpaulsen; getsoutalive; All
"The clinics have to deal with limited supply and current street prices that could be had by their suppliers."(getsoutalive)

Huh? The clinics can get marijuana for $2./oz., unless you're saying that winston2 is mistaken. Actually, anyone in California can get marijuana for $2./oz. according to winston2.

So, how can a clinic charge and get $480./oz.?

I think I made my point that the federal war against cannabis users is what keeps the price of marijuana so extremely high.

Now factor in that it is not as addictive as coffee and tell me why millions of citizens choose it from the wide assortment of available mind altering substances?

325 posted on 02/22/2006 6:29:33 PM PST by winston2 (In matters of necessity let there be unity, in matters of doubt liberty, and in all things charity:)
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To: winston2

"I think I made my point"

You can make your point forever with the "warriors", they will never get it. Not smart enough.


326 posted on 02/22/2006 6:38:10 PM PST by Supernatural (Lay me doon in the caul caul groon, whaur afore monie mair huv gaun)
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To: Supernatural
If the "warriors" had their way, anyone using cannabis would be hanged, shot or electrocuted.

I disagree. I feel that those who steer the war against cannabis users are parasites and parasites do not want their host to die.

327 posted on 02/22/2006 6:40:19 PM PST by winston2 (In matters of necessity let there be unity, in matters of doubt liberty, and in all things charity:)
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To: Supernatural
"I think I made my point"(winston2)

You can make your point forever with the "warriors", they will never get it. Not smart enough.

I'm not so much concerned with convincing the WOD bunch, but rather debunking the lies that they tell and presenting the truth about cannabis.

I get a few private messages from non cannabis users that express a growing support for cannabis use. It's a grass roots movement!

328 posted on 02/22/2006 6:45:46 PM PST by winston2 (In matters of necessity let there be unity, in matters of doubt liberty, and in all things charity:)
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To: winston2

Good point.

All those folks know is hyperbole, heresay and inuendo. They and the truth are complete strangers to each other.


329 posted on 02/22/2006 6:45:50 PM PST by Supernatural (Lay me doon in the caul caul groon, whaur afore monie mair huv gaun)
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To: winston2
It's a grass roots movement!

It sure is. That Commerce Clause decision has sent people flocking to the legalization side. I think that was the straw that broke the camel's back. Everyone now sees their liberties in danger from this Sin War.
.
330 posted on 02/22/2006 7:01:33 PM PST by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: Mojave
What is the markup on cigarettes?

Do you get loaded on cigarettes?

The question I responded to was about cost, not effect. Try to keep up.

331 posted on 02/22/2006 7:11:06 PM PST by getsoutalive
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To: winston2

Didn't mean to pick nits, just being fair. Your point was well made.


332 posted on 02/22/2006 7:12:28 PM PST by getsoutalive
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To: Supernatural

Always the same. Just can't help myself sometimes, keep thinking just maybe if I make the point in a different way, the proverbial lightbulb would go off in their heads. Sad really.


333 posted on 02/22/2006 7:17:48 PM PST by getsoutalive
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To: getsoutalive
The question I responded to was about cost

You were evading the subject of the profits of the pot "clinics".

334 posted on 02/22/2006 7:19:12 PM PST by Mojave
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To: MRMEAN

War's over. We lost.


335 posted on 02/22/2006 7:19:44 PM PST by Poser (Willing to fight for oil)
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To: getsoutalive

I give you an "A" for effort. Not your fault that you have such poor students.


336 posted on 02/22/2006 7:29:52 PM PST by Supernatural (Lay me doon in the caul caul groon, whaur afore monie mair huv gaun)
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To: getsoutalive
"You were evading the subject"

A professional evader calls you on evading. Business as usual.
337 posted on 02/22/2006 7:31:18 PM PST by Supernatural (Lay me doon in the caul caul groon, whaur afore monie mair huv gaun)
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To: Mojave
No, I said that the markup (mostly to growers who take the largest risks) on cannabis is because of the risks involved due to its illegality. Altria (Phillip Morris) doesn't have the kind of profits because there are no legal risks. Simple market dynamics. Reduce the legal risks and the profit margin will collapse. Only government can make a simple to grow plant worth its weight in gold.
338 posted on 02/22/2006 7:37:11 PM PST by getsoutalive
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To: Mojave
You were evading the subject of the profits of the pot "clinics".

Well, if we're going to talk about profits, what about the $250 billion per year laundered through Wall Street?
What about the Media Mergers financed by drug money?
What about the politicians who recieve drug money as campaign contributions to keep drugs illegal?

"California, Florida, Texas and New York are, far and away, the states where most illegal drugs enter the United States. California, Florida, Texas and New York are also the states responsible for laundering most of the $200-250 billion dollars of drug money that pass through the U.S. economy and banking system every year...Eighty per cent of all Presidential campaign contributions come from California, Florida, Texas and New York."...Catherine Austin Fitts, Managing Director of the Wall Street investment bank Dillon Read, and Assistant Secretary at HUD

The Drug Lords want drugs to stay illegal. Why is that?

Drug Money Pipeline
.
339 posted on 02/22/2006 7:40:52 PM PST by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: getsoutalive
Only government can make a simple to grow plant worth its weight in gold.

And they do it by arresting 700,000 otherwise innocent citizens at an expense of over 10 billion tax dollars per year. Just - DAMN! Why does our population put up with this insanity?

340 posted on 02/22/2006 7:43:02 PM PST by winston2 (In matters of necessity let there be unity, in matters of doubt liberty, and in all things charity:)
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To: winston2

1.5 million arrests and $39 billion tax dollars last year!


341 posted on 02/22/2006 7:47:11 PM PST by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: getsoutalive
No, I said that the markup (mostly to growers who take the largest risks) on cannabis is because of the risks involved due to its illegality.

What costs are these alleged "risks" creating for the clinics? They're operating openly.

342 posted on 02/22/2006 7:57:21 PM PST by Mojave
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To: mugs99
The Drug Lords want drugs to stay illegal.

Oh? The pot "clinics" are endlessly promoting legalization.

343 posted on 02/22/2006 8:00:27 PM PST by Mojave
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To: Mojave
What costs are these alleged "risks" creating for the clinics? They're operating openly.

First, many clinics do not grow their own supply. They must buy from growers who risk jailtime. That is why it costs 300/oz wholesale.

Second, the feds seem to enjoy busting these legal clinics from time to time.

Go figure.

344 posted on 02/22/2006 8:14:43 PM PST by getsoutalive
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To: getsoutalive
They must buy from growers who risk jailtime.

Why would they need to do that?

I thought it was supposed to be so easy.

345 posted on 02/22/2006 8:30:00 PM PST by Mojave
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To: Mojave
Oh? The pot "clinics" are endlessly promoting legalization

LOL!
If the clinics were making the money you claim, they would be paying politicians to legalize it...like the real drug lords pay to keep it illegal.
.
346 posted on 02/22/2006 9:05:55 PM PST by mugs99 (Don't take life too seriously, you won't get out alive.)
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To: mugs99
If the clinics were making the money you claim, they would be paying politicians to legalize it...

Like the Oakland city council? That didn't work.

347 posted on 02/22/2006 9:13:54 PM PST by Mojave
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To: MRMEAN

Yes, it's really right. It takes a social liberal to even want recreational drugs.


348 posted on 02/22/2006 9:14:53 PM PST by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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To: A CA Guy
It takes a social liberal to even want recreational drugs.


349 posted on 02/22/2006 9:20:40 PM PST by Mojave
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To: Mojave

350 posted on 02/22/2006 9:22:29 PM PST by A CA Guy (God Bless America, God bless and keep safe our fighting men and women.)
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