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Modern Aftermath of the Crusades (islam and the west)
Aina.org ^ | 3/12/2006 | Staff

Posted on 03/11/2006 5:41:28 PM PST by Dark Skies

WASHINGTON -- The Crusades may be causing more devastation today than they ever did in the three centuries when most of them were fought, according to one expert.

Robert Spencer, author of "Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam (and the Crusades)" (Regnery), claims that the damage is not in terms of lives lost and property destroyed but is a more subtle destruction.

Spencer shared with ZENIT how false ideas about the Crusades are being used by extremists to foment hostility to the West today.

Q: The Crusades are often portrayed as a militarily offensive venture. Were they?

Spencer: No. Pope Urban II, who called for the First Crusade at the Council of Clermont in 1095, was calling for a defensive action -- one that was long overdue.

As he explained, he was calling the Crusade because without any defensive action, "the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked" by the Turks and other Muslim forces.

"For, as most of you have heard, the Turks and Arabs have attacked them and have conquered the territory of Romania [the Greek empire] as far west as the shore of the Mediterranean and the Hellespont, which is called the Arm of St. George," Pope Urban II said in his address. "They have occupied more and more of the lands of those Christians, and have overcome them in seven battles. They have killed and captured many, and have destroyed the churches and devastated the empire.

"If you permit them to continue thus for a while with impunity, the faithful of God will be much more widely attacked by them."

He was right. Jihad warfare had from the seventh century to the time of Pope Urban conquered and Islamized what had been over half of Christendom. There had been no response from the Christian world until the Crusades.

Q: What are some popular misconceptions about the Crusades?

Spencer: One of the most common is the idea that the Crusades were an unprovoked attack by Europe against the Islamic world.

In fact, the conquest of Jerusalem in 638 stood at the beginning of centuries of Muslim aggression, and Christians in the Holy Land faced an escalating spiral of persecution.

Early in the eighth century 60 Christian pilgrims from Amorium were crucified; around the same time the Muslim governor of Caesarea seized a group of pilgrims from Iconium and had them all executed as spies -- except for a small number who converted to Islam.

Muslims also demanded money from pilgrims, threatening to ransack the Church of the Resurrection if they didn't pay.

Later in the eighth century, a Muslim ruler banned displays of the cross in Jerusalem. He also increased the tax on non-Muslims -- jizya -- that Christians had to pay and forbade Christians to engage in religious instruction of their own children and fellow believers.

Early in the ninth century the persecutions grew so severe that large numbers of Christians fled for Constantinople and other Christian cities. In 937, Muslims went on a rampage in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday, plundering and destroying the Church of Calvary and the Church of the Resurrection.

In 1004, the Fatimid Caliph, Abu 'Ali al-Mansur al-Hakim, ordered the destruction of churches, the burning of crosses, and the seizure of church property. Over the next 10 years 30,000 churches were destroyed, and untold numbers of Christians converted to Islam simply to save their lives.

In 1009, al-Hakim commanded that the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem be destroyed, along with several other churches, including the Church of the Resurrection. In 1056, the Muslims expelled 300 Christians from Jerusalem and forbade European Christians from entering the rebuilt Church of the Holy Sepulcher.

When the Seljuk Turks took Jerusalem in 1077, the Seljuk Emir Atsiz bin Uwaq promised not to harm the inhabitants, but once his men had entered the city, they murdered 3,000 people.

Another common misconception is that the Crusades were fought to convert Muslims to Christianity by force. Glaringly absent from every report about Pope Urban's address at the Council of Claremont is any command to the Crusaders to convert Muslims.

It was not until over 100 years after the First Crusade, in the 13th century, that European Christians made any organized attempt to convert Muslims to Christianity, when the Franciscans began missionary work among Muslims in lands held by the Crusaders. This effort was largely unsuccessful.

Yet another misconception revolves around the Crusaders' bloody sack of Jerusalem in 1099.

The capture of Jerusalem is often portrayed as unique in medieval history, and as the cause of Muslim mistrust of the West. It might be more accurate to say that it was the start of a millennium of anti-Western grievance mongering and propaganda.

The Crusaders' sack of Jerusalem was a heinous crime -- particularly in light of the religious and moral principles they professed to uphold. However, by the military standards of the day, it was not actually anything out of the ordinary.

In those days, it was a generally accepted principle of warfare that if a city under siege resisted capture, it could be sacked, and while if it did not resist, mercy would be shown. It is a matter of record that Muslim armies frequently behaved in exactly the same way when entering a conquered city.

This is not to excuse the Crusaders' conduct by pointing to similar actions. One atrocity does not excuse another. But it does illustrate that the Crusaders' behavior in Jerusalem was consistent with that of other armies of the period -- since all states subscribed to the same notions of siege and resistance.

In 1148, Muslim commander Nur ed-Din did not hesitate to order the killing of every Christian in Aleppo. In 1268, when the jihad forces of the Mamluk Sultan Baybars took Antioch from the Crusaders, Baybars was annoyed to find that the Crusader ruler had already left the city -- so he wrote to him bragging of his massacres of Christians.

Most notorious of all may be the jihadists' entry into Constantinople on May 29, 1453, when they, according to historian Steven Runciman, "slew everyone that they met in the streets, men, women and children without discrimination."

Finally, it is a misconception that Pope John Paul II apologized for the Crusades. He did not.

There is no doubt that the belief that Pope John Paul II apologized for the Crusades is widespread. When he died, the Washington Post reminded its readers "during his long reign, Pope John Paul II apologized to Muslims for the Crusades, to Jews for anti-Semitism, to Orthodox Christians for the sacking of Constantinople, to Italians for the Vatican's associations with the Mafia and to scientists for the persecution of Galileo."

However, John Paul II never actually apologized for the Crusades. The closest he came was on March 12, 2000, the "Day of Pardon."

During his homily he said: "We cannot fail to recognize the infidelities to the Gospel committed by some of our brethren, especially during the second millennium. Let us ask pardon for the divisions which have occurred among Christians, for the violence some have used in the service of the truth and for the distrustful and hostile attitudes sometimes taken toward the followers of other religions."

This is hardly a clear apology for the Crusades.

Q: How have Muslims perceived the Crusades then and now?

Spencer: For centuries, when the Ottoman Empire was thriving, the Crusades were not a preoccupation of the Islamic world. They were, after all, failures from a Western standpoint.

However, with the decline of the military power and unity of the Islamic world, and the concomitant rise of the West, they have become a focal point of Muslim resentment of perceived Western encroachment and exploitation.

Q: To what extent are false ideas about the Crusades being used by extremists to foment hostility to the West today?

Spencer: The Crusades may be causing more devastation today than they ever did in the three centuries when most of them were fought -- but not in terms of lives lost and property destroyed. Today's is a more subtle destruction.

The Crusades have become a cardinal sin not only of the Catholic Church but also of the Western world in general.

They are Exhibit A for the case that the current strife between the Muslim world and Western, post-Christian civilization is ultimately the responsibility of the West, which has provoked, exploited, and brutalized Muslims ever since the first Frankish warriors entered Jerusalem.

Osama bin Laden has spoken of his organization not as al-Qaida but of a "World Islamic Front for Jihad Against Jews and Crusaders," and called in a fatwa for "jihad against Jews and Crusaders."

Such usage is widespread. On November 8, 2002 -- shortly before the beginning of the Iraqi war that toppled Saddam Hussein -- Sheikh Bakr Abed Al-Razzaq Al-Samaraai preached in Baghdad's Mother of All Battles mosque about "this difficult hour in which the Islamic nation [is] experiencing, an hour in which it faces the challenge of [forces] of disbelief of infidels, Jews, crusaders, Americans and Britons."

Similarly, when Islamic jihadists bombed the U.S. Consulate in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, in December 2004, they explained that the attack was part of larger plan to strike back at "Crusaders": "This operation comes as part of several operations that are organized and planned by al-Qaida as part of the battle against the crusaders and the Jews, as well as part of the plan to force the unbelievers to leave the Arabian Peninsula," the jihadists said in a statement.

They also said that jihad warriors "managed to enter one of the crusaders' big castles in the Arabian Peninsula and managed to enter the American consulate in Jeddah, in which they control and run the country."

In the face of this, Westerners should not be embarrassed by the Crusades. It's time to say, "enough," and teach our children to take pride in their own heritage.

They should know that they have a culture and a history of which they can and should be grateful; that they are not the children and grandchildren of oppressors and villains; and that their homes and families are worth defending against those who want to take them away, and are willing to kill to do so.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Government; Israel; News/Current Events; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: catholic; crusades; history; islam; muslims; ottomanempire; ottomanturks; papacy; popeurbanii; rop; thecrusades; turks; urbanii
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The President has been told that the west is under attack by a cult. Is this cult all of islam or only a part?

Who knows? But the President has yet to come to the American people with a clear position as to this matter.

Mr. President...here is your challenge. Where is the line to be drawn? Will you answer this challenge or will you hide from it?

Within islam lies a cult of planetary consequence...will you stand and fight? Or will you appease?

1 posted on 03/11/2006 5:41:32 PM PST by Dark Skies
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To: Dark Skies
Well, the 1st Crusade was called to assist the Byzantine empire which was being invaded (cities taken) by the Muslims. Now it was called much later than it was requested and when the crusaders actually arrived at Byzantium, it was a surprise. Many didn't know what they were doing, and the Byzantines pushed them across the river because they seemed more of a threat than not. They made lots of mistakes, changed lots of plans during the 1st Crusade. And for the most part it was a fiasco.

Was it defensive? Yes, I suppose so. Was it a just war? I don't know. Were there war crimes on both sides? Yes.
This is a good book on the topic:


2 posted on 03/11/2006 5:48:13 PM PST by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker! (Charlie Mike, son))
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To: bnelson44

Thx BN...there are so many great books on this topic. And the Crusades are with us again...and not by our choosing.


3 posted on 03/11/2006 5:50:51 PM PST by Dark Skies ("A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants." -- Churchill)
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To: Dark Skies

Good article.

As for Bush, who knows what he is going to do, or for that matter, what any of our leaders are going to do. I suspect that they will keep up the ROP nonsense until there is another massive attack or something else that makes it patently ridiculous.

According to the Hoover Institution policy document that someone posted here this week, a long campaign of some 70 years is expected, mostly "fought" through diplomacy, with the response to "extremists" being only localized and more on the order of reaction than part of a grand plan. In other words, the same non-strategy that we have been following since 1977.

What I don't understand is our willingness to let the Muslims initiate the actions and control the timing, and our blindness to the fact that the problem is far greater than it was in 1977. Not only are our enemies now possessed of seriously threatening weapons, there are Muslims spread throughout formerly friendly countries and agitating for our blood.


4 posted on 03/11/2006 5:52:35 PM PST by livius
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To: Dark Skies

Biblical truth and current affairs are in line. Although this may offend some, God does and will use enemies to bring His own back to Him.


5 posted on 03/11/2006 5:53:03 PM PST by Birmingham Rain
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To: USF; papertyger; jan in Colorado; AmericanArchConservative; Former Dodger

Robert Spenser ping


6 posted on 03/11/2006 5:53:44 PM PST by Dark Skies ("A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants." -- Churchill)
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To: livius
I agree.

A leadership vacuum of Churchillian proportion exists. And no one seems willing to fill it.I am dumbfounded that no leader of world consequence has felt the pull enough to step onto the stage.

Damned strange IMO.

Waiting for that shoe to fall.

7 posted on 03/11/2006 5:58:50 PM PST by Dark Skies ("A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants." -- Churchill)
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To: Dark Skies
Dark Skies,

I always enjoy your posts. Thanks for the illumination.

8 posted on 03/11/2006 5:59:16 PM PST by patriotUSA (The day I die will be the greatest day of my life. I will see Jesus.)
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To: patriotUSA

Thx Patriot...glad you are here on a Saturday nite.


9 posted on 03/11/2006 6:00:42 PM PST by Dark Skies ("A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants." -- Churchill)
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To: Dark Skies

True


10 posted on 03/11/2006 6:01:19 PM PST by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker! (Charlie Mike, son))
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To: patriotUSA

BTW...your tag line is the best!


11 posted on 03/11/2006 6:01:57 PM PST by Dark Skies ("A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants." -- Churchill)
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To: Dark Skies

We have one. He is President Bush and he is being treated the same as Churchill was. I am not saying that as some lemming. Read over what he has accomplished these last few years. Quite remarkable.



12 posted on 03/11/2006 6:03:20 PM PST by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker! (Charlie Mike, son))
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To: Dark Skies
One day I was able to completely drop "me" and my agenda and that truth became know to me. The tagline is not my creation. It was given to me from above.

And your are right, it is the best. I hope you use it.

13 posted on 03/11/2006 6:10:04 PM PST by patriotUSA (The day I die will be the greatest day of my life. I will see Jesus.)
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To: bnelson44
As Churchill said, "The nation had the lion's heart. I had the luck to give the roar"...

Bush has the lion's heart (IMHO) but he has yet to give the defining roar. He has yet to fully define the enemy. I can't say I blame him...it is the job of a lifetime. But it is his to give...and he has yet to give the "roar."

14 posted on 03/11/2006 6:10:53 PM PST by Dark Skies ("A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants." -- Churchill)
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To: Dark Skies

Well said. I keep waiting for Bush to come out of the fog.


15 posted on 03/11/2006 6:14:24 PM PST by patriotUSA (The day I die will be the greatest day of my life. I will see Jesus.)
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To: patriotUSA
I think when you and I die...we will at first think...this is the greatest day (I will see Jesus). But then we might might think...no, the greatest day was when I gave my life to Jesus.

And after a while we might think the greatest day is the day when He went to the cross.

And I imagine there are a million other days we will see (in Him) that are greater still.

How lucky we are! Each day is better than that last!

Already resting in His loving arms...what an eternal blessing!

Have a great weekend!

16 posted on 03/11/2006 6:18:39 PM PST by Dark Skies ("A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants." -- Churchill)
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To: Dark Skies

"Damned strange IMO"

Not at all. We presently live in an era of cowardly elites. They are concerned with maintaining their control and not rocking the boat.

IOW they have blinders on.

They will lead us into disaster and from the chaos leadership will necessarialy emerge. A story as old as time, really.


17 posted on 03/11/2006 6:21:38 PM PST by TalBlack (I WON'T suffer the journalizing or editorializing of people who are afraid of the enemies of freedom)
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To: Dark Skies

Wow. It's posts like that, that keep me looking for your name on FR. Blessings to you friend.


18 posted on 03/11/2006 6:28:16 PM PST by patriotUSA (The day I die will be the greatest day of my life. I will see Jesus.)
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To: Dark Skies
Good article. The leftists usually buy Islamic argument that the West is 'deserved' to be hated because they colonized many "Islamic countries" before. This caused the animosity among the Muslim toward the West.

I would say, if we accept that line of argument, we also have to accept the argument that the West 'deserves to hate' Muslims because at the beginning, it was Muslims who conquered Christian lands, converted the Christians, and even captured Constantinople: the Second Rome!

19 posted on 03/11/2006 6:47:56 PM PST by paudio
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Ping to read later


20 posted on 03/11/2006 6:50:40 PM PST by Alex Murphy (Colossians 4:5)
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To: paudio

The crusades did more to destroy the Byzantine Empire than the Turks.


21 posted on 03/11/2006 7:18:31 PM PST by DariusBane (I do not separate people, as do the narrow-minded, into Greeks and barbarians.)
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To: Dark Skies
>"A leadership vacuum of Churchillian proportion exists. And no one seems willing to fill it.I am dumbfounded that no leader of world consequence has felt the pull enough to step onto the stage.">"

Ya mean like the beast and the whore? Although I must admit they oftentimes appear interchangeable, as the lines of definition blur between them.

22 posted on 03/11/2006 9:01:03 PM PST by rawcatslyentist ("Why waste time learning, when ignorance is instantaneous"---Hobbes the Tiger)
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To: bnelson44; All

Does anyone know the true story of the killing of Jews by the Crusaders in Jerusalem? I am a Catholic and my Jewish MIL talks about this like it was yesterday. Please HELP!!


23 posted on 03/11/2006 9:18:13 PM PST by Ann Archy (Abortion: The Human Sacrifice to the god of Convenience. T)
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To: bnelson44

bump


24 posted on 03/12/2006 1:45:47 AM PST by VOA
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To: Dark Skies

Something I love, historical truth.


25 posted on 03/12/2006 2:23:34 AM PST by flaglady47
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To: Ann Archy

I don't recall the details, but as Spencer mentioned in the article, the Crusaders killed many people in the city. It was common practice at the time to sack a city that was taken by storm, and sack included indiscriminate slaughter.

Many Christians were killed, as well as most Muslims and probably Jews as well. Unfortunately, this was one of the periods in Europe when Jews were persecuted on a wide scale.

Post number 2 above references a book that may help.


26 posted on 03/12/2006 3:04:41 AM PST by jimtorr
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To: jimtorr

To Muslim is Holy. Anybody become Muslim is Holy. One word from mouth, it is always correct. So, that mean no "liar". For example, if a muslim say "I like this girl". she will belong to him forever. Very strange, against freedom will. To them, they have right to conquer land. You must remember, they follow Abraham and 12 tribe of Israel in Canaan land. No matter how or what, they always right. Anyway, they are everywhere. The only best respond is to pray ROSARY. the only source of weapon that Mother Mary gave to us. Most important, Church must UNITE!!! Become ONE. I can tell you Muslim will felt to ground and start REVENGE and HATRED at us. Be on your guard and pray! MOSES use staff defeat egypt army, why not ROSARY conguer Devil!


27 posted on 03/12/2006 4:04:57 AM PST by plck
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To: Dark Skies

later ...rto


28 posted on 03/12/2006 4:33:33 AM PST by visitor (...and the dems wonder why they lost and will continue to lose, good riddance)
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To: american colleen; Lady In Blue; Salvation; narses; SMEDLEYBUTLER; redhead; Notwithstanding; ...
Catholic Ping - Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list

Eastern Catholic Ping List
Please freepmail me if you want on/off this list


29 posted on 03/12/2006 5:21:31 AM PST by NYer (Discover the beauty of the Eastern Catholic Churches - freepmail me for more information.)
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; Lent; GregB; ..
If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.
Articles on Israel can also be found by clicking the keyword or topic Israel.

---------------------------

30 posted on 03/12/2006 5:34:46 AM PST by SJackson (There is but one language which can be held to these people, and this is terror, William Eaton)
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To: TR Jeffersonian

ping


31 posted on 03/12/2006 6:25:32 AM PST by kalee
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To: Ann Archy

Yes, they sacked the city. Which was a common practice at the time after surrender terms were refused by the city officials.


32 posted on 03/12/2006 6:25:44 AM PST by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker! (Charlie Mike, son))
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To: Ann Archy

The Jews were military allies of the Muslims in some areas. It was apparently the case in Jerusalem. I read about this awhile ago and can't find that source. It takes some work to dig up a real history of this area.

Anyway, the Christian population of Jerusalem had been expelled into a devastated land to starve prior to the arrival of the Crusaders. The Crusaders came upon the survivors of this action and it was a reason they used to put to death the defenders of the city after it was captured.

Here is a source that references that action,
"Within the city a large Fatimid Egyptian force was awaiting their approach. The Egyptian army was well trained and had carefully stocked the city with arms and provisions in anticipation of a protracted siege. Jerusalem's most topographically vulnerable northern fortifications were strengthened. In the surrounding countryside the defending Moslem army had poisoned cisterns and conducted a scorched earth policy in order to deny the advancing Crusaders vital supplies. In order to avoid possible betrayal from within The city's Fatimid rulers expelled its Christian population prior to the Crusaders'arrival."
http://www.biu.ac.il/js/rennert/history_9.html

Here's a book I think would be very instructive (I haven't read it) "The Jew As Ally of the Muslim: Medieval Roots of Anti-Semitism"
by Allan Harris Cutler and Helen Elmquist Cutler
Commentary, http://www.danielpipes.org/article/33


33 posted on 03/12/2006 6:43:29 AM PST by Varda
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To: Varda

What a fascinating review!! Fascinating theory! Too bad the book is $50. But published by Notre Dame, that is not some fly-by-night publisher.


34 posted on 03/12/2006 8:10:50 AM PST by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
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To: DariusBane
The crusades did more to destroy the Byzantine Empire than the Turks.

They might have. But it's irrelevant to the argument that the Muslims did capture Constantinople, the second Rome. Plus, it's not like the Muslims was never trying to attack the city before it finally fell.

35 posted on 03/12/2006 8:29:31 AM PST by paudio
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To: paudio
That is a monumental understatement to say that the crusades "might have" contributed. to the end of the Byzantine empire.

The fourth Crusade was essentially used by the Venetians as a ploy to assemble an army and send it against Constantinople. The Christian east never recovered, and left a power vacuum that the Arab Muslims exploited. If you want to argue who started it, and what sparked the first Crusade, and the second and the Richard The Lion Hearted and his third crusade, that was the result of the Arab Muslim Tsunami destroying the Greek world that had existed since Alexander the Great. This included the Ptomlomics, the Seleucid's etc. But to argue that the fourth Crusade was not an evil power grab by scheming Venetians that destroyed the Christan East is just silly.
36 posted on 03/12/2006 8:53:28 AM PST by DariusBane (I do not separate people, as do the narrow-minded, into Greeks and barbarians.)
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To: Dark Skies

I am very proud that my two remaining children go to a Catholic high school that has as their sports' team name "Crusaders". Yep. Go Kapaun Crusaders


37 posted on 03/12/2006 10:30:04 AM PST by SaintDismas
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To: wequalswinner

First Tank, Can Do Easy

38 posted on 03/12/2006 10:45:13 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: Varda; Ann Archy

"The Jews were military allies of the Muslims in some areas"

I really doubt this. The 'Israelites', as they were called, did not constitute a compact political entity in any part of the muslim world of the 11th century. But killing the whole population of a city after its defeat was very common. As there was no way to identify friend from foe, especially when they both spoke a same completely different unknown language.

But the fact that Jews were then living in 'relative' peace within moslem communities in the moslem world is very well known to the scholars. Look at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides

You might as well have a small idea of what was the intellectual mood in the 12th century.


39 posted on 03/12/2006 10:49:33 AM PST by Patrick_k
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To: Ann Archy

Armies of the First Crusade took control of Jerusalem in July 1099. This illustration depicts the subsequent sack of the city, during which Crusaders massacred its Egyptian defenders and inhabitants. Having captured the holy city for Christianity, the Crusaders established Jerusalem as the center of the Latin Kingdom.

40 posted on 03/12/2006 10:53:41 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: Ann Archy
We know it to be a myth that the crusaders targeted the Jewish community in Jerusalem.

How is a Frankish man-at-arms to know Jew from Muslim?

41 posted on 03/12/2006 11:01:37 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: Ann Archy
Some of our men (and this was more merciful) cut off the heads of their enemies; others shot them with arrows, so that they fell from the towers; others tortured them longer by casting them into the flames. Piles of heads, hands, and feet were to be seen in the streets of the city. It was necessary to pick one's way over the bodies of men and horses. But these were small matters compared to what happened at the Temple of Solomon, a place where religious services are ordinarily chanted. What happened there? If I tell the truth, it will exceed your powers of belief. So let it suffice to say this much, at least, that in the Temple and porch of Solomon, men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins. Indeed, it was a just and splendid judgment of God that this place should be filled with the blood of the unbelievers, since it had suffered so long from their blasphemies. The city was filled with corpses and blood.

Sounds like they went medieval on them.

42 posted on 03/12/2006 11:14:35 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: Dark Skies

The Crusades did nothing to damage Islam. The Mongols did a lot and nearly finished it off. Yet there is no interest in the Mongol campaign.


43 posted on 03/12/2006 11:17:45 AM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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To: Ann Archy
In terms of eleventh-century behaviour in war, the massacre at Jerusalem was not unusual.
44 posted on 03/12/2006 11:27:25 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: RightWhale
The Mongols did not use horseshoes, and the rocky terrain of Syria reportedly injured the Mongol horses' hooves to the extent that they were unable to fight effectively. Additionally, the Mamluks realised that grasslands were needed to pasture the Mongols' horses. Therefore, the Mamluks often burned grasslands in Syria in their wake, to prevent the Mongol horses from grazing.
45 posted on 03/12/2006 11:36:48 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

The Mongols were headed toward Europe through Turkey, but the Turks won the final battle as much by luck and circumstance as anything. Europe was wide open had the Mongols got past Turkey.


46 posted on 03/12/2006 11:42:14 AM PST by RightWhale (pas de lieu, Rhone que nous)
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To: Dark Skies
During his intifada I recall seeing that man of peace, Yasir Arafat, remember him?, pounding on a table, yelling and spitting on himself and everyone around him like a madman. That 7-day beard he always had (I guess nobody would tell him; shave Yasir, shave) and that towel on his head that he always brought to a point. He shouted over and over jihad jihad jihad jihad jihad jihad jihad jihad jihad.......
All I could think of was

CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE CRUSADE !
47 posted on 03/12/2006 11:46:31 AM PST by Shooter1001
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To: RightWhale

Battle of Liegnitz

48 posted on 03/12/2006 12:04:02 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: RightWhale
Only the death of Emperor Ogadai . . . saved Europe from total conquest.
49 posted on 03/12/2006 12:11:05 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Our enemies act on ecstatic revelations from their god. We act on the advice of lawyers.)
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To: 2ndMostConservativeBrdMember; afraidfortherepublic; Alas; al_c; american colleen; annalex; ...


50 posted on 03/12/2006 1:03:30 PM PST by Coleus (What were Ted Kennedy & his nephew doing on Good Friday, 1991? Getting drunk and raping women)
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