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The Mysterious Death of George Patton
Fox News ^ | 4/27/06 | Oliver North

Posted on 04/27/2006 6:26:15 PM PDT by spanalot

Was General Patton's death the result of a traffic accident or was he the victim of an assassination plot? (By Stalin)

(Excerpt) Read more at foxnews.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: assassination; assassinationplot; china; communism; communist; generalpatton; georgepatton; georgespattonjr; godsgravesglyphs; kgb; mao; nkvd; olivernorth; patton; putin; russia; soviets; sovietunion; stalin; ussr; vladimirputin; wwii
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To: Romanov

When Von Paulus surrendered at Stalingrad his forces contained about 110,000 men. 400,000 had been killed by the Soviets. Occasionally the History Channel interviews survivors of this battle.


351 posted on 05/08/2006 2:16:23 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: phil1750

Patton IS a true American hero - NEVER comprimised his integrity and stood by his beliefs even when it meant he was going to be pilloried.


352 posted on 05/08/2006 2:18:39 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: justshutupandtakeit

'More important than the lack of political will for such an invasion was the lack of a political REASON to do so."

Reasons?

The Russians invaded our ally Poland,

In the two genocide famines of 1921 and 1932, they killed more than all soldiers killed in WWI.

They took 40000 Ally POW hostage.

They were exporting terrorism throughout the globe and destroying western civilization - something which took 2000 years to develop.


353 posted on 05/08/2006 2:46:24 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: justshutupandtakeit

"How could we have done what the Nazis were incapable of doing when we had fewer men"

Im going out on the limb here but I'll guess THE A BOMB!


354 posted on 05/08/2006 2:50:01 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: Romanov

""I think Patton was right. Do you think he was wrong?" "

"I think Patton's sentiment was right, but the practicality of it was wrong."

What is it with amnesia around here - everyone forgets we had the bomb for 4 years before the Russians stole the secret.



355 posted on 05/08/2006 2:57:19 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot

We had NO bombs left as you have been repeatedly informed.


356 posted on 05/08/2006 3:07:52 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: spanalot

Poland was NOT our ally when Hitler and Stalin divided it. So that reason has no validity.

We certainly would not invade because of PAST famines or atrocities.

Our people wouldn't even support joining WWII until we were ATTACKED.

There were no 40,000 American POWs held by the Soviets.

Rather than exporting terrorism the Soviets were fighting the common enemy.

This is getting stupider and stupider and only testifies to your cluelessness.

What next "Because Stalin wasn't a nice guy."


357 posted on 05/08/2006 3:11:30 PM PDT by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: ColdSteelTalon

Heh. Perhaps Uncle Joe did have a hand in it - Uncle Joe Kennedy, that is... :0)


358 posted on 05/08/2006 3:12:24 PM PDT by COBOL2Java (Freedom isn't free, but the men and women of the military will pay most of your share)
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To: justshutupandtakeit; Tailgunner Joe

You and Romanov keep making a liar out of Patton. He asked for two bombs to get rid of the Russian threat and guess what - we had them.

"Chuck Hansen's great book U.S. Nuclear Weapons: The Secret History doesn't explicitly go into this question, but it does note that at the end of 1945 the U.S. owned a total of two atomic bombs, both Fat Man plutonium bombs. (This design became the standard U.S. nuclear weapon until into the 1950s.) He also notes that the weapons were short-lived, so it is possible that a) there were more than two bombs in the inventory when the war ended and even that b) the bombs on hand on December 31 had been assembled after August 15. "


359 posted on 05/08/2006 3:33:38 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: Romanov

"There is the possibility that Bush's ancestors had some financial interests with the Nazis"

You better watch yourself Romanov - with all the lobbying you do on the behalf of the Kremlin, this might be taken the wrong way.


360 posted on 05/08/2006 3:37:49 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot

"What is it with amnesia around here - everyone forgets we had the bomb for 4 years before the Russians stole the secret. "

Tsk, tsk, tsk. If you are going to continue to make it an ethnicity issue over a Soviets vs. the US issue, at least have the honesty to say the people who stole the secrets where led by Ukrainian NKVD agent Pavel Sudoplatov.

You surely aren't suggesting we should have nuked the Soviet Union?


361 posted on 05/08/2006 3:39:10 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: spanalot

Nice try Comrade Ukrainian Nationalist. Those who can read will note my consistent criticism of Russian policies. Of course, you'll try to spin what I write to suit your holocaust denial pro-Ukrainian Red-Brown coalition leanings.


362 posted on 05/08/2006 3:40:57 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: Romanov

"You surely aren't suggesting we should have nuked the Soviet Union?"

So I take it you disagree with Patton. Why the pretense then - you really don't support Patton at all.

Of course we should have nuked Moscow. It would have stopped the Genocide of 60 million in China, the US losses of over 100,000 in Korea and VietNam as well as Gazillion$ wasted on the Cold War - we could have used the resources to cure cancer and such.


363 posted on 05/08/2006 3:52:38 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: justshutupandtakeit


"You should also know that we had NO more bombs to drop"

Lots of people here going out of their way to make a fool of Patton - he asked for two bombs to get rid of the Russians and prevent the Genocide of 60 million and guess what - we had them!

"Chuck Hansen's great book U.S. Nuclear Weapons: The Secret History doesn't explicitly go into this question, but it does note that at the end of 1945 the U.S. owned a total of two atomic bombs, both Fat Man plutonium bombs. (This design became the standard U.S. nuclear weapon until into the 1950s.) He also notes that the weapons were short-lived, so it is possible that a) there were more than two bombs in the inventory when the war ended and even that b) the bombs on hand on December 31 had been assembled after August 15. "




364 posted on 05/08/2006 3:58:47 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: Romanov

"Nice try Comrade Ukrainian Nationalist."

Do you have me confused with someone else? I was born in the US and wrote-in Ronald Reagan in 1972.


365 posted on 05/08/2006 4:01:27 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: justshutupandtakeit

"There were no 40,000 American POWs held by the Soviets."

Lots of people here trying to cover up for Stalin.

"Stalin learned what was happening and retaliated. He permanently "retained" the American and British soldiers whom he still held as bargaining chips. What did he do with them? He carted them to the Soviet Union where they lived the rest of their lives in the Russian gulags. How many American and British soldiers? Over 20,000 Americans and over 30,000 British and Commonwealth soldiers ! In fact, as the authors of Soldiers of Misfortune point out: "Starting in 1945, the Soviet Union became the second-largest employer of American servicemen in the world."


366 posted on 05/08/2006 4:10:48 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: justshutupandtakeit
We only had to stand up to Stalin. And our superior air power and artillery, not to forget nuclear techonology would have made Stalin settle for LESS of Europe. Patton KNEW..
367 posted on 05/08/2006 4:33:12 PM PDT by AmericanDave ("and I want those lobbyists out of Washington. Do that and I'll say I'm a Republican."Bruce Willis)
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To: justshutupandtakeit

"We had NO bombs left as you have been repeatedly informed."

We could build MORE...... (George C. Scott voice:)while kicking Russky Ass!


368 posted on 05/08/2006 4:35:48 PM PDT by AmericanDave ("and I want those lobbyists out of Washington. Do that and I'll say I'm a Republican."Bruce Willis)
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To: justshutupandtakeit; Romanov; Tailgunner Joe

"He was claiming 50,000 earlier. Someone must have freed 10,000 between posts."

This is certainly one of the darkest secrets in betrayal in American History. And it is a cover up by the Left and other Usefull Idiots, as Stalin would call them.

I would not joke about the liquidation of these American Heros - you're in the wrong place for that.


http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0915765837/002-0802494-6188837?n=283155


369 posted on 05/08/2006 4:36:30 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot

Nope - by your own words you're parents were in the GULag (but you refuse to name which one) and YOU claim to have been interrogated by the KGB - so which is it?


370 posted on 05/08/2006 4:40:07 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: spanalot

Ha! You fall for all of the crackpots. Would you like a look at one of the authors of the book - a despicable person who PRETENDED to be a POW (a felony, btw):

"Here is an example of one individual who is a phony POW: "Dr." Larry Pistilli. Pistilli is one of the principal sources in a book by Mark Sauter and James Sanders, Soldiers of Misfortune. This book is touted by the MIA cult as telling the truth about the abandonment of US POWs from WWII and Vietnam. In fact, it is a collection of nonsense. Pistilli claims that he was assigned to I Corps in 1965 "working on special classified missions." He claims that he was captured, taken to a Vietnamese prison camp near the Chinese border where he observed Chinese and Soviet interrogators selecting US POWs for transport to China and the Soviet Union. There is one problem with this story. Pistilli never served in Vietnam, was never a POW. Pistilli was in the Army from August 3, 1964 to July 31, 1967. He was with the 57th Signal company in Korea. The rest of these clowns have equally phony stories."


371 posted on 05/08/2006 4:43:44 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: spanalot

Yes, and I remember reading in the newspapers after the Soviet Union imploded, that we (actualy Pres Eisenhaur) abandoned U.S. Korean war POWS that the Chineese gave to the Russians. Why?, (I'm guessing here) because of fear of starting a nuclear war.


372 posted on 05/08/2006 4:49:37 PM PDT by AmericanDave ("and I want those lobbyists out of Washington. Do that and I'll say I'm a Republican."Bruce Willis)
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To: Larry Lucido

" The way I see it, the Good Lord created George Patton for one particular purpose. When that mission was finished, He called him home. "

You're brighter than previously thought.
God just made a notation next to your name.
God creates all of us in his image for one purpose or another is correct.
.... in the background the arena audience does the big wave.




373 posted on 05/08/2006 4:58:32 PM PDT by SunnySide (Ephes2:8 ByGraceYou'veBeenSavedThruFaithAGiftOfGodSoNoOneCanBoast)
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To: AmericanDave; spanalot; x5452; GarySpFc
Come on guys, let's have a sanity check here.

1.) These claims have been checked, re-checked, checked,and checked again by the investigators at the Defense Prisoner of War/Missing Personnel Office and were determined to be unfounded.
2.) The book (of which I have a copy) is filled with half-truths, downright lies, and misinterpreted information.
3.) The "Abandoned POW" claims would mean that Generals like Omar Bradley, a great American, and others like him were complicit in selling out American servicemen - something that would NEVER happen
4.) The "nuclear blackmail" scenario is completely ludicrous - a.) if you believe that then you think our country and our leaders are weak, and b.) if we succumbed to "nuclear blackmail" by the Soviets they would have used it OVER and OVER and OVER and OVER again to get what they want. The Cuban Blockade during the missile crisis would never have been attempted, we NEVER would have gotten involved in Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Panama, the first Gulf War, Libya, we never would have conducted airborne recon near the Soviet Union, Gary Powers NEVER would have flown over the Soviet Union, etc.

Furthermore, you would also have to believe that every president since Truman would have been complicit in the coverup - to include the greatest modern American president - Ronald Reagan.

It's time to get a gripo and start believing in your country again. Jeez.
374 posted on 05/08/2006 4:59:47 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: Romanov; lizol

"Ha! You fall for all of the crackpots. Would you like a look at one of the authors of the book - a despicable person who PRETENDED to be a POW (a felony, btw):

"Here is an example of one individual who is a phony POW: "Dr." Larry Pistilli. Pistilli "

Sorry - the book is written by Sanders, Sauter, and Kirkwood. - no Pistilli.

But don't let me get in your way . Everyone has to eat.

And while your googling another ad hominem, its a good opportunity for the rest of us to read another excerpt of this fine book:

This horrible tale is well documented in Soldiers of Misfortune . Much of the evidence involves the eyewitness accounts of American POWs who barely missed being "liberated" by Stalin's forces. For example, the authors detail the story of three Americans held in a German POW camp — John L. Connolly, Carmen Gomez, and Joseph Friedl. One morning in 1945, they woke to find their German captives gone. Connolly and Gomez decided to head west in search of American forces. Friedl decided to wait for Russian "liberators." Their story will chill you:

But when the men tried to cross a bridge to the tantalizingly close American line, Red Army troops stopped them at gun point. "The Russians herded us into a bombed-out building. . . . When there were several hundred of us [Americans], they began to march back into Germany."

Wisely refusing to march away from their own lines, Connolly and about a dozen others ducked out of the column as it passed through town. Hours later, they ran across a team of American scout cars under the command of a brigadier general. "The Soviets are taking a column of American POWs back east," Connolly told the general. Flying into a rage, the American officer sped off to catch the column. But the POWs had vanished.

Joseph Friedl was taken back to the Soviet Union. He was one of the fortunate ones — he was released in 1946.

Another American soldier, Technical Sergeant D.C. Wimberly, was straggling back to American lines and found himself in the German town of Luckenwalde. The Germans were herding back a column of German POWs to the Soviet Union, but when a few men near the end of the column saw Wimberly's American flag on his uniform, they called out: "Hey! You American? We're American. I'm from Philadelphia . . . Boston . . . Chicago. Help me!"

Americans also compared German army records of how many Americans were held in the camps. It was not difficult to see that the Soviets had failed to return all of them.

So, why has all of this been kept secret from the American people? World War II has been billed as the "good war" — the war that justifies all subsequent foreign wars. And every student in every public school across America is taught that FDR was one of our country's greatest presidents.

How could the U.S. government tell the truth about what happened to American servicemen? To tell the truth would mean exposing American complicity in the murder of over a million innocent Russian people. It would entail a closer examination of the Allied alliance with one of the most brutal political regimes in all of history. And it would expose all the scheming and machinations that resulted in the abandonment of over 50,000 Allied soldiers to our communist "friends."


375 posted on 05/08/2006 5:08:40 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot

True, based on the work of Pistilli - a phoney POW.

Here's what happened. Some Americans did find themselves behind the Soviet lines after their camps were overrun. MOST of these men are accounted for. Others died in Soviet camps and/or hospitals. If you actually knew more about the subject you would know that activities like this are going on daily:

http://www.dtic.mil/dpmo/sovietunion/AAR_Ver_2Sent2ASDISA.pdf

But keep on slamming your country and accusing them of being in cahoots with communist scum.


376 posted on 05/08/2006 5:15:55 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: spanalot

"How could the U.S. government tell the truth about what happened to American servicemen? To tell the truth would mean exposing American complicity in the murder of over a million innocent Russian people. It would entail a closer examination of the Allied alliance with one of the most brutal political regimes in all of history. And it would expose all the scheming and machinations that resulted in the abandonment of over 50,000 Allied soldiers to our communist "friends." "

Do your math spanalot. The 50,000 (oh, now it's "Allied") include those lost in France, Belgium, Germany (Western half), at sea in the Pacific and Atlantic, in Asia, etc. The actual numbers of those who were lost in the Soviet areas of activity are extremely low and do not approach the numbers you cite. Likewise, I would like to see some actual historical (NARA records for example) that can support your claim we sent 1 million Russians to their deaths (I've read some info about it on the net and if true it's disgusting, but your numbers don't add up at all).


377 posted on 05/08/2006 5:21:13 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: spanalot; GarySpFc; x5452

Educate yourself and pay attention to the personnel accounting statistics listed:

"World War II Working Group
The World War II Working Group of the U.S.-Russia Joint Commission on POW/MIAs is co-chaired on the American side by Dr. Timothy K. Nenninger, Chief of Modern Military Records at the U.S. National Archives and Records Administration in College Park, Maryland. The position of the Russian co-chair has been vacant since the Russian side began a thorough reorganization in June 2004. The Working Group has exchanged and examined thousands of documents dealing with the fates of American and Soviet POWs during and after World War II.

Through its investigative efforts, the World War II Working Group has confirmed that there were about 28,000 American Prisoners of War held by the Germans and their allies in camps on the Eastern Front. These prisoners came under Soviet control in the war’s final days, when the Red Army liberated the camps and occupied this territory. U.S. records show that about 25,000 of these POWs returned directly across the lines to U.S. military control. More than 2,800 others were returned to U.S. military control through the Soviet Black Sea port of Odessa (now Ukraine).

The World War II Working Group is investigating the possibility that some American POWs who remain unaccounted for from the Eastern camps may have been transferred to Soviet labor camps and were never repatriated.

The working group has also helped the Russians clarify the fates of more than 300,000 former Soviet POWs and displaced persons.



Wreckage of a U.S. Navy PV1 bomber found on Kamchatka Peninsula
in the Russian Far East. The seven crewmembers of this aircraft were
accounted for after the Commission sponsored a JPAC recovery operation
at this site in August 2001.

In August 2000, a joint mission led by General Roland Lajoie, U.S. Commission
Chairman, and Russian General-Major Konstantin Golumbovskiy traveled to the Kamchatka Peninsula in Russia’s Far East to investigate a crash site that was reported to the U.S. side’s Moscow office by a Russian historian from Kamchatka.

The wreckage they found was identified as that of a U.S. Navy PV1 bomber that crashed on Kamchatka in March 1944 with seven men on board. The crew members were identified, DPMO located the families to report what it learned concerning the fates of their loved ones, and a full recovery operation was conducted in 2001. All seven crew members were accounted for as a result of this mission.

Since then, DPMO has made two more expeditions to the harsh terrain and climate of the Kamchatka Peninsula. In August 2004, JCSD researchers discovered the wreckage of a World War II-era U.S. Army Air Forces B-24 bomber at Vestnik Bay. After analyzing all visible wreckage, JCSD researchers continue efforts to ascertain the identity of the crew and are seeking a return visit to the site with JPAC teams to conduct a more extensive investigation of buried and partially-buried elements that might facilitate identification.


JCSD investigators examine a fragment of a U.S. Army Air Forces B-24 bomber found at Vestnik
Bay on the Kamchatka Peninsula, August 2004.

JCSD continues its important research efforts within Russia to uncover new information that could help clarify the fates of missing Americans. In an effort to make its search more efficient and to broaden the possible sources of information available to it, DPMO will initiate research contracts with two more Russian archives that are believed to contain promising World War II records.

Additionally, the World War II Working Group continues to spearhead U.S. accounting efforts in Central Europe, where it maintains around 293 active cases of missing American servicemen in a number of nations. Two sites within the region are believed to contain the remains of missing American service members, and these have been identified for recovery operations. Two additional sites also are being evaluated for future recovery attempts. Field and analytical work in Hungary have provided valuable information on the circumstances of loss surrounding a dozen incidents encompassing over 20 unaccounted-for U.S. airmen. Additionally, JCSD research has directly accessed numerous foreign archives (Russia, Hungary, Romania, Croatia, Poland, and the Czech Republic), which has provided specific information on U.S. loss cases validated by site visits and interviews with witnesses. JCSD investigators have initiated important cooperative relations with governmental and other professional research entities in Hungary, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Slovenia, Croatia, and Romania in an effort to advance inquiries in those nations."

You were saying?


378 posted on 05/08/2006 5:25:40 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: spanalot; Romanov; lizol
The faces that made the famine happen:

Stanislaw Kosior


Vlas Chuba
379 posted on 05/08/2006 5:42:36 PM PDT by x5452
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To: Romanov

"These claims have been checked, re-checked, checked,and checked again by the investigators at the Defense Prisoner of War/Missing Personnel Office and were determined to be unfounded."

So you're saying our gov't has checked the allegations and issued a report saying they are not true. Name ONE instance where our gov't has admitted ANY mistake.

I just read "The flyboys" we are just learning about the attrocities our gov't covered up about our ENEMY. Parents and siblings not told what was KNOWN TO HAVE HAPPENED, until 40 years later! It's been on the best seller list, no one claims it's B.S. How much less will our gov't admit about it's OWN mistakes.

How about the nuclear testing with troops watching in the desert? How many years till that was acknowleged, and then only because there were ACTUAL PHOTOGRAPHS of the event showing the troops!

Why was Mcarthur dismissed? Truman was afraid the General would get us in a war with the Soviets!

I'm sorry, but I trusted my government COMPLETELY untill about 10 years ago. Now I know that it is as weak as the weakest politician......

There ARE and HAVE BEEN many FINE AND UPSTANDING people who have given their all for our country, but there have been too many traitors and weak people in our own Gov't then as today....

R.E. the Cuban Missle crises, Kennedy DID BACK DOWN! We pulled our missles out of Turkey on the QT, which was the original Soviet Demand! We just did it quietly. He traded Turkey for Cuba. But he saved face.....

Patton, just like McArthur; KNEW THE TRUTH.


380 posted on 05/08/2006 5:48:10 PM PDT by AmericanDave ("and I want those lobbyists out of Washington. Do that and I'll say I'm a Republican."Bruce Willis)
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To: x5452

So how far from the Kremlin do you have to go till you start finding Russians?


381 posted on 05/08/2006 5:50:50 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot

Where and when in Ukraine must you be born to be considered Ukranian?!!?!


382 posted on 05/08/2006 5:52:14 PM PDT by x5452
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To: Romanov

"You surely aren't suggesting we should have nuked the Soviet Union?"

We should have FOUGHT the Soviet Union over principle, and they would have given ground over East Germany and Poland, Checkoslovakia, because we HAD the bomb!

Patton was RIGHT.


383 posted on 05/08/2006 5:52:59 PM PDT by AmericanDave ("and I want those lobbyists out of Washington. Do that and I'll say I'm a Republican."Bruce Willis)
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To: AmericanDave

Here is exactly what Patton said:

"We promised the Europeans freedom. It would be worse than dishonorable not to see they have it. This might mean war with the Russians, but what of it? They have no Air Force anymore, their gasoline and ammunition supplies are low. I've seen their miserable supply trains; mostly wagons draw by beaten up old horses or oxen. I'll say this; the Third Army alone with very little help and with damned few casualties, could lick what is left of the Russians in six weeks. You mark my words. Don't ever forget them. Someday we will have to fight them and it will take six years and cost us six million lives. "

The man was brilliant - to have foretold the disasters that Russia would bring to us.


384 posted on 05/08/2006 6:00:29 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: x5452

This post is about Patton - what do you think of Pattons observation that the Russians could not be trusted and that millions would die fighting them after WWII?


385 posted on 05/08/2006 6:02:26 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot

Don't change the subject, this is quite clearly about who the Soviet Union leaders were, and whether they were exclusivly Russian, or a hodge podge of athiests from many countries and backgrounds, funded by foreigners into a successful takeover of Russia and East Europian countries like Ukraine.


386 posted on 05/08/2006 6:07:51 PM PDT by x5452
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To: AmericanDave

"So you're saying our gov't has checked the allegations and issued a report saying they are not true. Name ONE instance where our gov't has admitted ANY mistake."

Yes, what I am also saying is all of the investigators who have checked these reports are dead set on finding our missing men. The majority of these investigators are active duty military members and don't give a rat's butt if finding our guys embarrasses the government. And furthermore the guys who investigate these claims and continue to investigate these claims are allowed to do so without ANY interference from above. And I should know.

No one is claiming our government is perfect and never "covers anything up" but two things - "cover ups" always come to light and the people that who would have had to been involved were extremely patriotic career military men such as Omar Bradley and they NEVER would have abandoned soldiers to kiss the Soviet butt. Furthermore, the claims of 50,000 or 40,000 are hugely overstated. If you will note, it would only have been possible for the Soviets to have kept 200+ GIs (200+ too many, but nonetheless, a vast difference from the 50K or 40K the conspiracy theorists banty about.

"Why was Mcarthur dismissed? Truman was afraid the General would get us in a war with the Soviets!"

Another misperception and factually incorrect. Two points - 1.) McArthur was dismissed for insurbordination. While a great General, he disobeyed his Commander-in-Chief - something he wouldn't allowed in his own command, 2.) We were already in a war with the Soviets. The US military knew this, the public did not. Soviets from the 64th Fighter Air Corps in MiG-15s under the command of Ukrainian General Kozhedub were flying against our bombers and escort fighters and shooting our guys down (we gave 'em what for too). The Soviets were not even close to committing ground forces.

"R.E. the Cuban Missle crises, Kennedy DID BACK DOWN! We pulled our missles out of Turkey on the QT, which was the original Soviet Demand! We just did it quietly. He traded Turkey for Cuba. But he saved face..... "

Another misperception:

In reality JFK pulled a fast one on his Soviet counterpart and allowed Nikita a face-saving gesture (however, Khruschev was finished after this defeat):

"By the time that the Turkish Jupiters had been installed, the missiles were already largely obsolete and increasingly vulnerable to Soviet attacks. President John F. Kennedy ordered the removal of all Jupiter IRBMs upon taking office in 1961. The Air Force, however, delayed removal and the President was infuriated to learn that they had not yet been removed more than a year later. All Jupiter IRBM's were removed from service by April 1963."

As you can see, JFK had ordered the removal of the Jupiters PRIOR to the Cuban missile crisis. End result: No Soviet nukes 50 miles off of our shores at the "concession" of removing missiles from Turkey that already should have been removed.

And btw, Russian military historians, be they "pro-" West or "anti-" West agree on one thing - we handed them their a** during the Cuban missile crisis.


387 posted on 05/08/2006 6:21:23 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: Romanov

"And btw, Russian military historians, be they "pro-" West or "anti-" West agree on one thing - we handed them their a** during the Cuban missile crisis. "

And what did the Russians cost us in Korea and Viet Nam?


388 posted on 05/08/2006 6:39:19 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot

Are you talking about the forces led by the Ukrainian General Kozhedub?


389 posted on 05/08/2006 6:39:59 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: x5452

So how far from the Kremlin do you have to go till you start finding Russians?



390 posted on 05/08/2006 6:40:23 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot

How far from your computer moniter do you have to go before you find a Ukrainian nationalist who puts Western Ukraine ahead of his own country?


391 posted on 05/08/2006 6:45:34 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: x5452

Here's why this conspiracy theory is complete nonsense:

" the aftermath of the victory in Europe, Patton was disappointed by the Army's refusal to give him another combat command in the Pacific. Unhappy in his role as the military governor of Bavaria and depressed by his belief that he would never fight in another war, Patton's behavior and statements became increasingly erratic.

Whatever the cause, Patton found himself once again in trouble with his superiors and the American people. While speaking to a group of reporters, he compared the Nazis to losers in American political elections. Patton was soon relieved of his Third Army command and transferred to the Fifteenth Army, a paper command preparing a history of the war.

Bitter and intending to soon resign from the Army, in October 1945 General Patton assumed control of the Fifteenth Army. However, on December 9 he suffered serious injuries from an auto accident. Many conspiracy theorists believe that the drivers that were operating the car were ordered to hit him because of the belief that he was going to run for President when he came back to the United States, or because of his quarrels with occupation policies such as the Morgenthau Plan.http://rense.com/general63/patton.htm Patton died on December 21, 1945, and was buried in the American War cemetery in Hamm, Luxembourg."

As you can see, he was already finished in the US Army and posed no threat to the Soviets at that time. The "presidential ambitions" conspiracy theory are pretty similiar to the conspiracy theory surrounding McArthur's dismissal "because Truman knew he was going to run for president" or "Eisenhauer didn't want the competition" etc., etc..


392 posted on 05/08/2006 6:48:49 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: Romanov

No - we're talking about Patton conquering a pathetic Russian Army . Even the Ukrainian Freedom Fighters were picking off the "Hero" Generals of Stalingrad - something the Germans couldn't do.
---
"The UPA fought successful battles in Kostopil', Dubno, Kremjanets' regions and in the Zhytomyr and Berdychiv Forests, especially in the period from February 5 to April 5, 1944. About 850 NKVD-men were killed in these battles; a lot of weapons were captured. General Vatutin, chief-commander of the First Ukrainian Front, was mortally wounded in the ambush that had been organized by the UPA detachment. "


393 posted on 05/08/2006 6:53:03 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: Romanov

isn't there a law against linking to those wackos?

I think they had a piece on how Kirov was abducted by aliens.


394 posted on 05/08/2006 6:55:33 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot

"No - we're talking about Patton conquering a pathetic Russian Army . Even the Ukrainian Freedom Fighters were picking off the "Hero" Generals of Stalingrad - something the Germans couldn't do.
---
"The UPA fought successful battles in Kostopil', Dubno, Kremjanets' regions and in the Zhytomyr and Berdychiv Forests, especially in the period from February 5 to April 5, 1944. About 850 NKVD-men were killed in these battles; a lot of weapons were captured. General Vatutin, chief-commander of the First Ukrainian Front, was mortally wounded in the ambush that had been organized by the UPA detachment. "

You crack me up - just yesterday on this thread you were singing the praises of the Ukrainian Front - until you were informed it was a Russian-led Soviet force.

There was no Russian Army in 1945. The Russian Army ceased to exist in 1917. Perhaps you meant the Soviet Army - an army whose general officer corps was made up of a majority of Russian AND Ukrainian officers.

But you also forget a few points when you engage in this fantasy (The United States continuing the war to fight the Soviets)
1.) Our logistics lines were long
2.) We had the responsibility of rebuilding and occupying Germany - a drain in manpower.
3.) Our forces were draft based and more than ready to go home. The European theater troops dreaded the anticipated move to the Pacific theater because it prolonged their military service and put them in death's sights again.
4.) An invading force always has a tougher road to haul - partisans would have taken up arms again. The Soviets were shrewed enough to play up the "fatherland" aspect of the fighting - you rarely see any WWII-era Soviet posters asking the people to fight for the Communist Party
5.) We didn't have enough troops
6.) We would have had to fight through Eastern Europe
7.) Our main Allies that still had standing armies would not have joined us.
8.) US commanders actually care about the rate of loss in their units - something the Soviets didn't care a whit about (see: 10th NKVD motorized rifle regiment) and they would have thrown person after person after person after person after person on us.
9.) The UPA was fighting a partisan war (and really upset that they lost their Nazi support). As I recall they lost in the end.


395 posted on 05/08/2006 7:02:05 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: Romanov

Here is exactly what Patton said - I think his estimation of our success trumps your pessimistic view of the US capabilities ( and did I mention we HAD THE BOMB OR TWO:

"We promised the Europeans freedom. It would be worse than dishonorable not to see they have it. This might mean war with the Russians, but what of it? They have no Air Force anymore, their gasoline and ammunition supplies are low. I've seen their miserable supply trains; mostly wagons draw by beaten up old horses or oxen. I'll say this; the Third Army alone with very little help and with damned few casualties, could lick what is left of the Russians in six weeks. You mark my words. Don't ever forget them. Someday we will have to fight them and it will take six years and cost us six million lives. "

The man was brilliant - to have foretold the disasters that Russia would bring to us.


396 posted on 05/08/2006 7:07:30 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: Romanov

"You crack me up - just yesterday on this thread you were singing the praises of the Ukrainian Front - until you were informed it was a Russian-led Soviet force. "

Of course they were Russian led - the Ukrainian foot soldiers were forced into battle unarmed at the point of an NKVD gun. They were given 2 or 3 rounds and told to pick up a weapon from any one killed in front of them.


397 posted on 05/08/2006 7:09:51 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: Romanov
" 2.) We were already in a war with the Soviets. The US military knew this, the public did not."

You make my point for me. Truman was afaid of an escalation to Nuclear war.. McArthur was NOT.

398 posted on 05/08/2006 7:28:08 PM PDT by AmericanDave ("and I want those lobbyists out of Washington. Do that and I'll say I'm a Republican."Bruce Willis)
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To: spanalot

Footsoldiers? Trotsky was a footsoldier now??!


399 posted on 05/08/2006 7:31:07 PM PDT by x5452
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To: spanalot

"Of course they were Russian led - the Ukrainian foot soldiers were forced into battle unarmed at the point of an NKVD gun. They were given 2 or 3 rounds and told to pick up a weapon from any one killed in front of them."

Once again you prove you're a Ukrainian nationalist who disregards the truth. The unarmed conscripts were Russian, Chukchi, Mari, Nantsy, Mongol, Ukrainian, Pole, Georgian, Armenian, Azeri, Tadjik, Turkmen, Buryat, etc., etc., etc.

Your racial hatred allows you to totally ignore the sacrifices of these men (and women) all in order to place too much of a "honor" tag on your Ukrainians. None of these men and women were fighting to preserve the Soviet Union - they were doing so to preserve their families and their homeland. The Soviets knew that - hence the NKVD "rear action" squads.

And once again, can you tell me more about General Kozhedub - the Ukrainian who was the commander of the 64th Fighter Aviation Corps - the Soviet Union that killed American F-80, F-86, and B-29, B-26 crews?


400 posted on 05/08/2006 8:53:09 PM PDT by Romanov
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