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George Allen: Rebel flag was teen 'attitude.' Magazine reports on rebel symbols he had in school
Richmond Times-Dispatch ^ | 4/30/6 | Peter Hardin and Tyler Whitley

Posted on 04/30/2006 7:41:33 PM PDT by Crackingham

Sen. George Allen, who has tried to reach out to minority voters in recent years, wore a Confederate flag pin on his shirt collar in a high-school yearbook photo, a national magazine reported yesterday. As a high school student in Palos Verdes, Calif., Allen was seen riding in or driving a Ford Mustang with either a Confederate flag license plate or Confederate flag imagery on the car, The New Republic quoted witnesses as saying.

The Virginia Republican, seeking re-election now and weighing a presidential bid in 2008, was to depart today to co-host a civil-rights history tour for members of Congress to Southside Virginia. The topic is to be progress toward racial reconciliation. Allen staff confirmed that the pin in his yearbook picture depicted a Confederate flag. An Allen aide told the magazine the senator didn't remember a Confederate flag on his Mustang but that it was possible.

As a high school student in California, "I generally bucked authority and the rebel flag was just a way to express that attitude," Allen said in a written statement to the magazine. "Life is a learning experience and I have learned quite a bit in the ensuing 36 years."

He went on to discuss his belief in equal opportunity, his learning from participating in a civil-rights history tour to Alabama several years ago and his proposed Senate legislation to aid minority colleges.

Harris Miller, one of two Democrats seeking the nomination to run against Allen, said yesterday that he found Allen's explanation "pretty disingenuous" considering that while he held state office, he had "a troubling record on minority issues."

Miller cited Allen's issuance while governor of a "highly divisive" Confederate history and heritage month proclamation and his vote, while a member of the House of Delegates, against a Martin Luther King Jr. holiday.

"We need leaders who will celebrate all that we have in common rather than things that divide us," Miller said.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: Virginia
KEYWORDS: 109th; 2006; allen; allen2006; boring; cbf; civilrights; civilwar; confederacy; confederate; confederateflag; congress; crossofsaintandrew; dixie; georgeallen; gop; harrismiller; history; neoconfederate; race; rebelflag; republicans; saintandrewscross; senate; virginia
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To: 4CJ
When people today speak of the St.Andrew's cross used on the scottish flag what do they think of the one that flew from 1542 until now or the two others no one has seen used for over 400 years?

According to this confederate flag site what I have said so far is correct about The St. Andrew's flag, not only that but William Porcher Miles presented his design at St.Andrew's hall

Only his original design used instead a St. George's cross, again with the color inverted from the British flag as well as the moon and palm tree from the South Carolina flag.

I'm not wrong I just didn't explain everything to you because I didn't think it was absolutely necessary.

151 posted on 05/01/2006 5:19:17 PM PDT by usmcobra (Those that are incited to violence by the sight of OUR flag are the enemies of this nation.)
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To: Corin Stormhands; EternalVigilance
EV is a Keyster.

Unless Allen turns his back on a gay child or favors reparations for Michael Jordan, as Keyes does, he won't get EV's endorsement. No candidate will, unless EV can snag a paying position on his campaign gravy train.

152 posted on 05/01/2006 5:19:21 PM PDT by sinkspur (Things are about to happen that will answer all your questions and solve all your problems.)
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To: EternalVigilance

ohfereverluvvincryinoutloud...

you don't even understand cliches


153 posted on 05/01/2006 5:19:50 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: sinkspur

I've caught onto that. But I think the spelling is "keister."


154 posted on 05/01/2006 5:20:48 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Corin Stormhands

Hey, while I've got you here, and since you seem to have access to the Allen staff ping list, maybe you could finally answer my question from days ago:

Does Allen support abortion up "until brain waves commence" or is it actually "until viability"?

There are, as you know, sources quoting him that could leave a person believing either...


155 posted on 05/01/2006 5:21:53 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (George Allen's conservatism is as ephemeral as his virtual fence.)
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To: Corin Stormhands
ohfereverluvvincryinoutloud... you don't even understand cliches

Sure I do. I heard dozens of 'em in the last George Allen speech I heard...

156 posted on 05/01/2006 5:24:25 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (George Allen's conservatism is as ephemeral as his virtual fence.)
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To: sinkspur
Unless Allen turns his back on a gay child or favors reparations for Michael Jordan, as Keyes does, he won't get EV's endorsement. No candidate will, unless EV can snag a paying position on his campaign gravy train.

Okey-dokey, Deacon.

157 posted on 05/01/2006 5:25:30 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (George Allen's conservatism is as ephemeral as his virtual fence.)
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To: Gabz
I'm a damnedyankee for crying out loud.

Actually, yer a "damnyankee" is the appropriate spelling.

158 posted on 05/01/2006 5:25:33 PM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: Corin Stormhands

He was for the 'Assault Weapons Ban" before he was against it.

Is that statement inaccurate?


159 posted on 05/01/2006 5:43:19 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (George Allen's conservatism is as ephemeral as his virtual fence.)
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To: wardaddy
NOW THAT'S THE BEST WAY TO DISPLAY THE CONFEDERATE BATTLE FLAG!
160 posted on 05/01/2006 5:51:19 PM PDT by Colt .45 (Navy Veteran - Thermo-Nuclear Landscapers Inc. "Need a change of scenery? We deliver!")
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To: Mr. Jeeves

"The things his sister said might be untrue or exaggerated...but if they are true, Allen is a sociopath who does not belong in any public office. Unfortunately, those are just the types of people who are drawn to seek political office, and DC already has an overabundance of them."




You're exactly right. Before reading the article, I had a very favorable impression of Allen----but now, who knows what to think. We'll never know for sure what's true and what isn't.


161 posted on 05/01/2006 6:27:15 PM PDT by unfortunately a bluestater
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To: Crackingham
Update on the Prince Edward County Reconciliation Pilgrimage


162 posted on 05/01/2006 6:35:02 PM PDT by Ligeia (Help unseat Jim Moran: http://www.tomodonoghue.com/about.html)
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To: Mr. Jeeves; unfortunately a bluestater
The things his sister said might be untrue or exaggerated...

It's old news. And it's largely fiction.

Well, his sister did write a book. That's about the extent of the facts associated with that story.

163 posted on 05/01/2006 7:08:02 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: sam_paine
Actually, yer a "damnyankee" is the appropriate spelling.

Technically you are correct, but since I didn't move south to change things to "the way they do them where I come from" neither your spelling nor mine fit me.

164 posted on 05/01/2006 7:17:06 PM PDT by Gabz (Smokers are the beta version)
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To: Gabz
since I didn't move south to change things to "the way they do them where I come from" neither your spelling nor mine fit me.

You talk in circles like a gall durn carpet baggin' durty yankee!

165 posted on 05/01/2006 7:39:08 PM PDT by sam_paine (X .................................)
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To: wardaddy
I demand she take that Confederate flag off right now! I will not tolerate that symbol of evil, take it off now! lol
166 posted on 05/01/2006 7:42:52 PM PDT by TheForceOfOne (Free Republic - The pulse of conservative politics, without lame stream media filtration.)
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To: Corin Stormhands

The things his sister said might be untrue or exaggerated...
It's old news. And it's largely fiction.

Well, his sister did write a book. That's about the extent of the facts associated with that story.




Do you have a source for that?


167 posted on 05/01/2006 10:00:17 PM PDT by unfortunately a bluestater
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To: Corin Stormhands
If Allen were Clinton, such a fact-free denial would be good enough to satisfy his supporters.

But he isn't, and it isn't.

If the Republicans don't deal with it, the Democrats will...and at a selectively inconvenient time.

168 posted on 05/02/2006 5:34:35 AM PDT by Mr. Jeeves ("When the government is invasive, the people are wanting." -- Tao Te Ching)
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To: unfortunately a bluestater; Mr. Jeeves
Do you have a source for that?

You mean other than knowing George Allen for the last 20 years?

As for how much of the book is fact and how much is exaggerated, I really don't know. And to be honest, don't care that much.

The book is about Jennifer Allen's relationship (or non-relationship) with their father. From the excerpts I've read, it's not flattering to anyone in the family. But it's much along the lines of the books Patti Davis and Carrie Fisher wrote about their parents.

My personal opinion is that it's a bit of sibling rivalry. Jennifer never fit in with the football scenario. Her brothers did.

But, I've known George Allen as an adult. God help us all if we're judged for our behavior as teenagers 30 and 40 years ago.

IIRC, the RATS did try to bring this up in 2000 when the book came out. The book, the flag and other stuff will be on the forefront just like the National Guard and dancing naked on a bar was for W.

But, when there needs to be a response, Allen will respond. And I'm not afraid of his answer.

169 posted on 05/02/2006 6:09:37 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: usmcobra
I'm not wrong I just didn't explain everything to you because I didn't think it was absolutely necessary.

In your 138 you wrote, 'I have to point out that the cross of St. Andrew is always a White cross on a blue field'. I replied that the Scottish use of the St. Andrew's cross 'was white on BLACK in 1385, in 1503 it was changed to red, and then in 1542 was changed to the blue of today.' It is not always white on blue as you stated.

When people today speak of the St.Andrew's cross used on the scottish flag what do they think of the one that flew from 1542 until now or the two others no one has seen used for over 400 years?

As I previously wrote in my reply, 'Southerners chose to use the St. Andrews CROSS (what he was crucified on), not the flag of Scotland.' A fact testified to by Mr. Cannon:

There can be no doubt that the Confederate Battle Flag or Southern Cross was intended to be a banner signifying the Christian heritage of the Southern people. The saltire or diagonal cross is the signal feature of that symbolism and is connected with the Christianity of ages past and of the martyrdom of the Apostle Andrew.

You then went on to claim that 'The southern cross is a corruption of religious symbols, inverted to do the devil's work.. Again from Mr. Cannon:

The salient design feature of the Battle Flag is its diagonal cross or saltire. This has for many centuries been a preeminent Christian symbol. ... Early in the history of the Christian church the Greek letter “X” or “Chi” became a symbol for Christ and Christianity. ... The important thing about the St. Andrews flag to the Scots was that it was an identification of themselves as a Christian people.

The British national or union flag contains the English St. Georges Cross with the diagonal St. Andrews Cross of Scotland, and the red diagonal St. Patricks Cross representing Northern Ireland. All the Scandinavian countries including Finland use a cross in their flags. The Swiss and Greek flags also contain crosses. This was meant to identify themselves as Christian nations.

The Southern Cross or Confederate Battle Flag with its white trimmed blue diagonal on a red field is a descendent of the Scottish St. Andrews Cross. As we shall see it was meant to be a preeminently Christian self-identification of the Southern people.

There can be no doubt that the Confederate Battle Flag or Southern Cross was intended to be a banner signifying the Christian heritage of the Southern people. The saltire or diagonal cross is the signal feature of that symbolism and is connected with the Christianity of ages past and of the martyrdom of the Apostle Andrew. The red field signifies courage. The blue of the saltire signifies truth. In Scotland it had come to have a special association with the truths of the Reformation. The white bordering of the cross signified the purity of their cause. One of the heraldic meanings of the saltire is strength, connected to the meaning of Andrew. A letter written by William Porcher Miles to Samuel Barrett of Georgia during the summer of 1861 clearly indicates the reasoning and intent of its principal designer and sponsor:

The flag should be a token of humble acknowledgement of God and be a public testimony to the world that our trust is in the Lord our God.

This meaning was widely understood by Confederate soldiers and the Southern people. That is why they frequently referred to it as “our Southern Cross.”

So in response to your claim that the Confederate flag was 'a corruption of religious symbols, inverted to do the devil's work', the evidence is just the opposite. The Southern people were Christian, so of course the Confederate flag employs a cross. I wonder if that is the reason that so many liberals despise the southern flag.
170 posted on 05/02/2006 6:51:26 AM PDT by 4CJ (Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito, qua tua te fortuna sinet.)
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To: stainlessbanner
actually, they aren't even "alternative history". they instead are just fact-FREE, ignorant,UNfounded personal opinions, of an UNknowing person.

free dixie,sw

171 posted on 05/02/2006 8:43:51 AM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: TheForceOfOne
rotflmRao!

free dixie,sw

172 posted on 05/02/2006 8:48:02 AM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: 4CJ
The flag was designed by congressman William Porcher Miles, described in the 38 Southern Historical Society Papers.

Did Miles actually design it? My understanding is that he was the head of a flag committee that was hip deep in designs submitted by the southern public.

173 posted on 05/02/2006 9:14:08 AM PDT by Heyworth
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To: Corin Stormhands

Allen's shown up in New Hampshire at least once. He's testing the waters.


174 posted on 05/02/2006 9:15:50 AM PDT by hershey
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To: hershey

I'm aware of his travels.

But ~this year~ he's running for the U.S. Senate.


175 posted on 05/02/2006 9:18:39 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Corin Stormhands

Very convincing answer. Thank you. I do not know much about Allen, but have always had a good impression of him when I see him interviewed (as to his personal demeanor and his policy views). In fact, prior to reading The New Republic article, I was thinking he might be a good choice as a Presidential candidate for 2008, if he chose to run. Sounds like the TNR article was a "hit piece"; the Left must be afraid of him. I will keep an open mind.


176 posted on 05/02/2006 9:52:30 AM PDT by unfortunately a bluestater
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To: unfortunately a bluestater
Sounds like the TNR article was a "hit piece"; the Left must be afraid of him.

That's it exactly. He's not perfect, but they're making up stuff to attack him for.

177 posted on 05/02/2006 9:56:37 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Corin Stormhands

Couple more comments. I noticed you have a list of Allen articles on your profile here on Free Republic. I'm going to look at those. You (and, ironically, the TNR article) have raised my interest in Allen. I voted for Bush twice, but this second term, he has greatly disappointed me. He seems like what I call an "elitist", despite his Southern accent and "Bushisms". Elitist is exactly what I DON'T want in a President, and maybe Allen will fit the bill. Though, contrary to many, I do like Newt too.


178 posted on 05/02/2006 10:31:50 AM PDT by unfortunately a bluestater
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To: unfortunately a bluestater

Do read through those articles (I'm rather behind in updating the list).


179 posted on 05/02/2006 10:36:31 AM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: EternalVigilance; SDGOP; P8riot
Here you go EV, the FACTS about George Allen, P8riot posted here

Allen is very pro 2nd Amendment.

During his term as governor Virginia became a "shall issue" concealed carry state, meaning that the state has to issue you a concealed carry permit, unless you are specifically legally prohibited from posessing a weapon. No justification is required to any local authority either.

Also, while governor Project Exile became law in Richmond, targetting criminals and not law abiding citizens. Put simply, if you are caught with handgun and are legally prohibited from posessing one, you will do a MINIMUM of 5 yrs in a federal pennitentiary. The program was so successful in reducing Richmond's murder rate (at that time one of the highest in the country), that it became law statewide under Jim Gilmore.

What a lot of short sighted progunners mistate about George Allen's stand on the Clinton "Assault Weapons" ban is that Allen was for it.

While running for his first term in the US Senate, George Allen stated that he would be for renewal of the ban if it could be proved that it had a positive impact on violent crime. When Senator Feinstein of CA attached a "poison pill" amendment to the "Gun lawsuit immunity" legislation before the Senate, George Allen voted against it citing that he had taken the opportunity to study the effects of the ban and was convinced that it had zero effect on violent crime.

In fact in a conversation that I had with him before the vote, I pointed out some by products of the ban that he had not considered.

- That it had created a "Black Market" in parts and guns grandfathered by the ban and--

- That it created a mindset in hitherto law abiding gunowners to think of ways of circumventing the law, just to be able to exercise our 2nd amendment rights What some folks here and elsewhere consider an "anti-gun" vote against the lawsuit immunity bill was in fact a pro-gun vote that allowed a draconian gun ban to sunset.

Bottom line is that George Allen is very strong on the 2nd amendment. You can be rest assured that if you vote for him, he will not come after your guns.

180 posted on 05/02/2006 1:39:38 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Corin Stormhands

But, he was for the 'Assault Weapons Ban" before he was against it.

Is that statement inaccurate?


181 posted on 05/02/2006 1:59:46 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (George Allen's conservatism is as ephemeral as his virtual fence.)
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To: Heyworth
Did Miles actually design it? My understanding is that he was the head of a flag committee that was hip deep in designs submitted by the southern public.

Quite a few designs were submitted by various people. On 9 Feb 1861 William Porcher Miles was appointed head of the 'Committee on the Flag and Seal' by the provisional Congress. On 27 Aug 1861 Miles re-submitted his twice rejected proposal (originally submitted in February). Col. James P. Wilson of Louisiana submitted an almost identical design different only in that he advocated a Latin cross (St. George's) instead of Miles' St. Andrew's cross. Beauregard preferred the Miles' design. The committee then selected Miles' proposal as the official design.

182 posted on 05/02/2006 2:45:40 PM PDT by 4CJ (Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito, qua tua te fortuna sinet.)
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To: EternalVigilance

I'm sure it's completely accurate on your planet.


183 posted on 05/02/2006 4:52:40 PM PDT by Corin Stormhands (HHD: Join the Hobbit Hole Troop Support - http://freeper.the-hobbit-hole.net/)
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To: Corin Stormhands

Typical nonresponse.


184 posted on 05/02/2006 5:10:07 PM PDT by EternalVigilance (George Allen's conservatism is as ephemeral as his virtual fence.)
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To: archy
the Klan not only took positions of local political leadership, but also served to organize veterans of the previous war to help arrange mutual support for their fellows, and which included black Confederate veterans such as Forrest's wartime drovers and teamsters.

You know why I haven't responded to this, the very idea is so patently absurd in it's premise that it isn't worth my time to debate it.

However if you wish to prove that Blacks were members of The Klu Klux Klan, knock yourself out.

185 posted on 05/02/2006 5:56:24 PM PDT by usmcobra (Those that are incited to violence by the sight of OUR flag are the enemies of this nation.)
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To: stainlessbanner

Well one more politician to write off. Probably wouldn't have voted for the Republican Presidential candidate anyway, but if he got the nod, I definitely would not. You dishonor my heritage and the brave men,including many of my ancestors, who fought against tyranny you lose my respect and my vote


186 posted on 05/02/2006 6:00:19 PM PDT by billbears (Those who do not remember the past are condemned to repeat it. --Santayana)
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To: 4CJ
If you take one flag and reverse the colors to create another flag, are you not corrupting the intent of the original design for your own purposes?

That is only common sense, as for the devil's work, do you consider treachery, slavery, treason, terror, and murder, Christan deeds or the devil's works on earth?
187 posted on 05/02/2006 6:04:52 PM PDT by usmcobra (Those that are incited to violence by the sight of OUR flag are the enemies of this nation.)
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To: usmcobra
That is only common sense, as for the devil's work, do you consider treachery, slavery, treason, terror, and murder, Christan deeds or the devil's works on earth?

The devil's, and the UNION had them all!

If you take one flag and reverse the colors to create another flag, are you not corrupting the intent of the original design for your own purposes?

The 1st US flag (the Continental Colors) was almost an exact copy of the British Red Ensign, with the British red background changed to red/white striped. Did the founders corrupt the intent, were they evil?

W. P. Miles did not take an existing flag and reverse the colors. He certainly did not take the Scottish flag and pervert it - he was a amatuer vexillologist who chose a 'saltire' for it's religious connotation with CHRISTIANITY and a heraldic symbol of STRENGTH, and it's blue color symbolized TRUTH. Miles chose to place the blue saltire on a red background to symbolize COURAGE and the blood that was shed, the white border of the saltire to represent PURITY, the white stars for the sovereignty of God and the states.

Again, Miles said of it, '[t]he flag should be a token of humble acknowledgement of God and be a public testimony to the world that our trust is in the Lord our God.'

188 posted on 05/03/2006 6:29:09 AM PDT by 4CJ (Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito, qua tua te fortuna sinet.)
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To: usmcobra; archy
what a SILLY, evasive & (possibly INTENTIONALLY deceitful) response!

"archy" did NOT say that the immediate post-war klan had Black MEMBERS, but rather that they ASSISTED their former comrades-in-arms, including those CSA veterans who WERE Black! (BIG DIIFERENCE in those 2 concepts!)

are you REALLY that clueLESS & DIMwitted OR do you hope your readers are so intellectually naive, bovine & dense as to believe your drivel & nonsense?????

free dixie,sw

189 posted on 05/03/2006 7:49:51 AM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: stand watie

I'm sure the Klan assisted Blacks confederates pick bananas off of oak trees with a rope and a gun, right?

Only there were a terrible series of horrible "accidents" in the process.


190 posted on 05/03/2006 7:54:07 AM PDT by usmcobra (Those that are incited to violence by the sight of OUR flag are the enemies of this nation.)
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To: usmcobra
btw, GEN N. B. Forrest said of his MANY Black cavalrymen (and other sorts of CSA veterans), "No better rebels ever drew breath. Those sable lads were magnificent fighters."

don't you wish you hadn't "opened this can of worms", as it makes you look IGNORANT of WELL-documented, incontrovertible, FACTS????

as i've said numerous times of you (and of the lunatics of the "DAMNyankee coven" on FR), "you know NOT & know NOT, that you know NOT".

cobra, you REALLY should go do some reading, from REPUTABLE source documents, about the war & stop reading the secondhand LIES, propaganda & evasive drivel out of northeastern, REVISIONIST, LEFTIST academia. you'd look smarter, thereby.

free dixie,sw

191 posted on 05/03/2006 7:58:48 AM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: usmcobra
are you REALLY that "brain-dead", that you cannot understand the difference in those TWO rather simple concepts????

OR are you just an ignorant HATER & ANTI-southern BIGOT like "m.eSPINola" & "justshutupandtakeit", both of whom either fear or discount the TRUTH???

frankly, you are becoming the same sort of laughingstock among KNOWLEDGEABLE FReepers, as those "pitiful fellows".

ALL i see you doing is making clueLESS, IGNORANT, SELF-righteous & ,i fear, KNOWINGLY deceitful statements (which do you NO honor).

free dixie,sw

192 posted on 05/03/2006 8:06:13 AM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: stand watie
and of course you don't have a link to anything you are going to tell me that Nathan Bedford Forrest once said.

and You'll never have any links, you'll only tell me to get educated and go read some book that you once read in a library but no one else can find it or any history of it in the very library you said you read it in.
193 posted on 05/03/2006 8:08:04 AM PDT by usmcobra (Those that are incited to violence by the sight of OUR flag are the enemies of this nation.)
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To: usmcobra
in other words, you think i should remember what book i ever read anything it????

GEN Forrest's comments are WELL-KNOWN to scholars & even most amateur historians of the period.

THAT quote(i think) even you can find "on the web" or in most any of the books on Forrest. (at most any decent sized public library).

free dixie,sw

194 posted on 05/03/2006 8:19:13 AM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: stand watie; usmcobra
btw, GEN N. B. Forrest said of his MANY Black cavalrymen (and other sorts of CSA veterans), "No better rebels ever drew breath. Those sable lads were magnificent fighters."

As usual, Wartie gets it wrong. Forrest did indeed praise the blacks who were part of his unit, but he never said they were "magnificent fighters," What he said, and what is often quoted in discussions of black confederates, is "Those fellows never left me...and better Confederates did not live."

Now note the ellipses there. It's very interesting that the vast majority of times that line is quoted, those ellipses are there. But what was left out? It turns out, upon some deeper digging, that what he said, in full, was "These fellows never left me, drove my teams, and better confederates never lived." So there it is. No magnificent fighters. No black cavalrymen riding alongside Forrest and shooting it out with the yankees. Just more teamsters and another Watie lie exposed.

195 posted on 05/03/2006 9:30:26 AM PDT by Heyworth
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To: Heyworth
Now note the ellipses there. It's very interesting that the vast majority of times that line is quoted, those ellipses are there. But what was left out? It turns out, upon some deeper digging, that what he said, in full, was "These fellows never left me, drove my teams, and better confederates never lived." So there it is. No magnificent fighters. No black cavalrymen riding alongside Forrest and shooting it out with the yankees. Just more teamsters and another Watie lie exposed.

So then, it is not my original post in #140 that you dispute as inaccurate, nor my statement that: ...and which included black Confederate veterans such as Forrest's wartime drovers and teamsters...?

As for how many were *just* Teamsters [I'm betting you wouldn't denigrate that trade to one of Jimmy Hoffa's lads face-to-face] I'd expect that they were indeed armed and likely rarely used arms; a wise commander does not engage the enemy with his supply train. But at least eight of Forrest's former slaves were among his personal and very armed escort, and those worthies almost certainly engaged in combat alongside the man who had 29 horses shot out from under him.

When the war started, Forrest asked 45 of his slaves (which he considered as servants) to join him, offering them their freedom after the war, no matter how it turned out. They all joined him and although they had numerous opportunities to desert him, 44 stayed by his side until the end of the war. In fact, part of his special command escort later called "the green berets" (ironic isn't it), consisted of the most elite and best soldiers available, and among them were eight black men.

--Dr. Gene Ladnier, author "Fame's Eternal Camping Ground

196 posted on 05/03/2006 1:25:02 PM PDT by archy (I am General Tso. This is my Chief of Staff, Colonel Sanders....)
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To: archy
So then, it is not my original post in #140 that you dispute as inaccurate,

You are correct. I do not dispute anything that you say in #140. I've never been one of the "Forrest started the Klan" guys, and Forrest's postwar record--apart from his unfortunate, but brief connection with the KKK--is basically admirable.

What I did dispute was Watie's spurious quote. In researching the actual quote which Watie was trying to remember (and fabricating when he couldn't), I found that the ellipsed version outnumbers the full version by a huge margin, something I find telling.

197 posted on 05/03/2006 2:33:11 PM PDT by Heyworth
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To: stand watie

Just so you know, I can quote and link to the speeches and writings of Nathan Beford Forrest better then you ever will.

I just don't have to prove me wrong.


198 posted on 05/03/2006 2:41:07 PM PDT by usmcobra (Those that are incited to violence by the sight of OUR flag are the enemies of this nation.)
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To: usmcobra
isn't that special?? (sarcasm.)

free dixie,sw

199 posted on 05/04/2006 7:58:08 AM PDT by stand watie ( Resistance to tyrants is OBEDIENCE to God. -----T.Jefferson)
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To: archy; Heyworth
In fact, part of his special command escort later called "the green berets" (ironic isn't it), consisted of the most elite and best soldiers available, and among them were eight black men.

So you would have us believe that this unit adopted an obscure Basque peasant wool cap as it's symbol 20 years before the first recorded use by the French military? And it just happened to be dyed green? Just how gullible do you think we all are?

200 posted on 05/07/2006 3:51:23 AM PDT by Non-Sequitur
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