Posted on 05/20/2006 8:33:39 PM PDT by tbird5
Deliberately targeting civilians is widely considered terrorism nowadays, but during World War II both the Britain’s Bomber Command and the United States Army Air Force deliberately targeted civilians.
The British philosopher A. C. Grayling, in his new book Among the Dead Cities: The History and Moral Legacy of the WWII Bombing of Civilians in Germany and Japan (Walker, $25.95), points out that the two air forces combined killed perhaps 600,000 German civilians and another 200,000 Japanese. He makes the case that at least by our current standards we were terrorists, and it logically follows that the attacks were war crimes. In an age of political terror, when it is urgent to come up with a persuasive distinction between legitimate and illegitimate violence, it is hard to overstate the importance of the questions Grayling raises.
(Excerpt) Read more at americanheritage.com ...
"To avert a vast, indefinite butchery [the invasion], to bring the war to an end, give peace to the world, to lay healing hands upon its tortured peoples … at the cost of a few explosions, seemed after all our toils and perils, a miracle of deliverance."
I agree with you. There's a big difference between going out of your way to slaughter women and chhildren (like some cultures do), casualties of war are different. And you do what you need to do to survive.
I saw a question and answer session on CSPAN Book TV with this author. He was a piece of work, smug, know it all and plain ole "I'm smarter than you" attitude".
They did not declare war on us.
They did not wear uniforms.
What they did "when they fly passenger jets into buildings here in the U.S." was not war, it was murder.
What WE are doing is war.
Well zaggs, you haven't created a profile page, so I can't know how old you are or what kind of experience you might have. But, as a genuine "Oldfart," I have a little first-hand information that you might not have access to.
I served in Japan after that war and I saw both Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I met people who had been burned by the intense heat and who had lost their families and homes to those blasts.
I also met many other Japanese citizens who had suffered under the wartime restrictions normal to any losing effort. Most of all, I saw the preparations all those people had made to 'welcome' the American sodiers.
You have to realize that the Japanese people had been told for years that American soldiers were cannibals and that they had a particular taste for babies and small children. Not only were the hills and mountains of Japan honeycombed with interconnecting tunnels, the farmers and factory workers- male and female- were thoroughly instructed in methods of self-defense with simple items such as rakes and brooms. I had the opportunity to see a young woman administer a severe beating to her American boyfriend when he got drunk and decided to slap her around. If the other women in Japan had been even half as well trained our military would have had its hands full before it got off the beaches. The tunnels were stockpiled with as much weaponry as could be spared from the front lines and those soldiers who had been injured and were no longer fit for service were prepared to die for their homeland.
I know there are college professors who genuinely feel that dropping the bomb was a war crime. Unfortunately, they developed their theory by reading and learning from other college professors who had no personal experience to draw upon. I don't know your personal experiences but in my view, having lived there for several years, I firmly believe that Truman saved a million or so lives by dropping those bombs.
There is much debate over if Japan was about to surrender before the nuclear attacks, such as contacting the Soviet Union. Similar to the American Civil War and if slavery would have ended naturally without the fighting.
There's always one thing that confuses the hell out of me when it comes to this subject. How can you argue on one hand that the Japanese citizenry in 1945 would be so fanatical and zealous in the defense of their country that they would have all fought to the death against invading U.S. forces, then turn around and acknowledge that they were so docile that they willingly accepted a total, humiliating surrender at the behest of an old emperor who they probably never saw in their lives?
SUN TZU ON THE ART OF WAR
http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html#02
War is hell, and it ain't pretty. This kind of 'Monday morning quarterbacking' is a waste of time.
"The Germans bombed British civilians long before German cities were bombed."
The above statement is only true if you amend it to say massive bombing. Remember that the Brits made a modest raid on Berlin during the early phase of the Battle of Britain when German aircraft were trying to cripple the RAF.
The first London raids were ordered in retaliation for the Berlin raid. This German decision played into the hands of the RAF as German planes would fly more predictable azimuths in raids upon London. The Germans lacked four-engine bombers and London is a huge city geographically. The German raids on London were never able to rubble the same percentage the city as three-day raids were able to do to German cities.
The article is so arm-chairish in its analysis. As Lord Mountbatten said defending the atomic bombings, "It was done in a total war context and has never been viewed in a total war context since then." (I'm quoting from memory so it is probably less-than-exact).
I seem to recall hearing that Clinton lost the popular vote, at least once. They don't seem to remember, or complain, about that much.
And who is "they?"
I'll ask you, too . . . Who is "they?"
No joke.
Like the V-1 buzz bombs and V-2's dropping all over London were not targeting civilians.
Moreover, the whole concept of not targeting civilians --- in an industrial age where 99% of the fight is won in mines and factories and labratories is absurd.
btt
Clinton won the "popular" vote but he never got a majority. He only won pluralities in 1992 and 1996.
It was total annihilation that broke the will of the enemy to continue the war, surrender, adopt democracy and join the free nations of the world. Unfortunately, that is not the way wars are fought today and look at what you get -- unending insurgencies.
There was a History Channel (or Discovery Channel) show a couple years back that showed that the Japanese were not far from completing a nuclear device that they planned on using in the US on a date that turned out to be only weeks after when they got bombed themselves. Even after we used two of the a-bombs, they still didn't want to surrender. After all, it took TWO bombs to somewhat convince them when any reasonable person would have thought one was enough. I've seen the pictures; it would have convinced me.
Amen
Are you joking???? While all terrible things, none of those actions were taken by the allies with the intent to attack civilians. The fire bombing of Tokyo spared most of the civilian housing. The point of the fire bombs was to overwhelm the Tokyo fire department to prevent them from saving the factories.
All though LeMay always knew that if we lost the war that he would be tried as a war criminal by the Japanese, he also knew that his orders saved more Japanese lives than they cost.
As far as Hiroshima and Nagasaki are concerned, both cities were Japanese army depots. They were military targets. Besides, Japan and the Japanese people were warned. The Potsdam Declaration was clear to all the people of Japan, "Stop fighting or be destroyed". The Japanese people had chosen to fight with rakes if they had to, and they made that clear to Truman.
"...The might that now converges on Japan is immeasurably greater than that which, when applied to the resisting Nazis, necessarily laid waste to the lands, the industry and the method of life of the whole German people. The full application of our military power, backed by our resolve, will mean the inevitable and complete destruction of the Japanese armed forces and just as inevitably the utter devastation of the Japanese homeland..."
"...We call upon the government of Japan to proclaim now the unconditional surrender of all Japanese armed forces, and to provide proper and adequate assurances of their good faith in such action. The alternative for Japan is prompt and utter destruction."
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