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Vatican Unease Over Islamic Countries (the real front line is forming in the "WOT")
Catholic.org ^ | 5/28/2006 | Staff

Posted on 05/28/2006 3:28:36 PM PDT by Dark Skies

Persecution of Christians in Islamic countries makes the news almost daily, and the Vatican is concerned. On May 17 Archbishop Giovanni Lajolo, secretary for relations with states in the Vatican's Secretariat of State, spoke to participants in the plenary session of Pontifical Council for Migrants and Travelers. The May 15-17 meeting focused on the theme of migration and Islamic countries.

After dealing with issues related to migration, Archbishop Lajolo, the equivalent of the Holy See's foreign minister, turned to Islam. The faith factor, he noted, is becoming more and more important in the debate over migration.

He first addressed the issue of migration from Islamic countries. The Holy See, he noted, has often defended the need for migrants to be able to freely follow their religious beliefs. This freedom includes the possibility to practice their religion, or even to change their faith. For their part, migrants should respect the laws and values of the society in which they now live, including the local religious values.

Turning to the conduct of Islamic countries themselves, Archbishop Lajolo warned that we are not faced with a homogeneous situation, but with a religion composed of many different facets. There is, nevertheless, a recent tendency for these governments to promote radical Islamic norms and lifestyles in other nations. He named, in particular, pressures from groups in Saudi Arabia and Iran.

In Asia, until recently, Muslims and non-Muslims lived largely in peace. In the last few years, however, extremist groups have grown and religious minorities are the target of violence. The archbishop also expressed concern over Islamic expansion in Africa, and, to a lesser extent, in Europe.

The problems posed by the radicalization of Islam range from Christians being unjustly subjected to trials by Islamic tribunals, to a lack of freedom in constructing places of worship and obstacles for the practice of faith.

The Vatican representative criticized Islamic countries for ignoring the concept of reciprocity, common in relations among states, when it comes to matters of faith. Islamic countries, he noted, demand religious rights for their citizens who migrate to other countries, but ignore this principle for non-Muslim immigrants present in their own lands.

Strategy detailed

What should the Church do in the face of these difficulties? Archbishop Lajolo outlined recommendations:

-- Faced with Islam the Church is called to live its own identity to the full, without backing down and by taking clear and courageous positions to affirm Christian identity. Radical Islamists, the prelate warned, take advantage of every sign they interpret as weakness.

-- We should also be open to dialogue, whether with individual nations or within the United Nations or other organizations.

-- An underlying problem in dealing with Islamic nations is the lack of separation between religion and the state. Part of the dialogue with Islamic religious and political authorities should be aimed at helping to develop a separation between these two spheres.

-- A particularly sensitive point is that of respect for minorities and for human rights, especially religious rights. The Holy See will continue to speak out at international meetings for the human rights of migrants. For its part the international community should ensure that humanitarian organizations do not unduly pressure recipients of aid to change religion.

-- The Holy See will continue to declare its firm opposition to all attempts to exploit religion by using it to justify terrorism and violence.

-- The protection of Christians in Islamic countries is particularly difficult in the area ranging from Turkey to the Middle East. Solutions must be found for the many Christians who flee their country of residence in search of safety.

-- Muslims who live in predominantly Christian countries should be integrated into the nation.

-- The Catholic media can play an important role in educating Christians, including those living in Islamic countries.

-- The Roman Curia together with bishops' conferences and local churches need to work closely together in these matters, including looking at the way to spread the Gospel in the Islamic world. This is our duty and our right, concluded Archbishop Lajolo.

British view

Muslim-Catholic relations were also examined recently by Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor. In a speech May 16 at the Oxford Center for Islamic Studies, the archbishop of Westminster said: "Our mutual understanding is crucial for world peace and human progress, not least in this era when globalization and mass migration have placed Christians and Muslims ever closer to each others, as neighbors in the same European towns and cities."

Dialogue between the two religions must combine both an awareness of what they have in common -- and what profoundly distinguishes them. "Catholics, in order to be good dialogue-partners, must first be firmly rooted in their understanding and love of Catholicism," the cardinal stated, "and I suspect that this is true for Muslims too."

But the main obstacle to this dialogue "is the failure, in a number of Muslim countries, to uphold the principle of religious freedom," he added. "It is essential that Muslims can freely worship in Oxford or London, just as it is essential that Christians can freely worship in Riyadh or Kabul."

Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor also called upon Muslims living in Britain to speak out when Christians are denied their rights in Islamic countries. "Where religious rights of minorities are disrespected in the name of Islam, the face of Islam is tarnished elsewhere in the world," he argued.

The cardinal furthermore distinguished between a "twisted religion" that is used to justify hatred and violence, and true religion. True religion, he explained, points us to healing, honor and purity.

Another prominent cardinal also recently expressed some concerns over Islam. Cardinal George Pell of Sydney, Australia, spoke on the theme of "Islam and Western Democracies" at a meeting of the organization Legatus in Naples, Florida.

His speech was given on Feb. 2, but only recently posted on the Web site of the Sydney Archdiocese. On the positive side, Cardinal Pell noted the points in common between Christians and Muslims, and he noted the great diversity in how Muslim beliefs are interpreted and lived.

Reciprocity

On the negative side, he observed that the Koran contains many invocations to violence. Moreover, Muslims believe that the Koran comes directly from God, unmediated. This makes it difficult for the Koran to be subjected to the same sort of critical analysis and reflection that has taken place among Christians over the Bible, according to Cardinal Pell. What is needed, the archbishop of Sydney stressed, is dialogue between Christians and Muslims.

The Pope spoke May 15 to the participants gathered in Rome for the plenary session of the Pontifical Council for Migrants and Travelers. Regarding Islam, Benedict XVI observed that in these times Christians are called upon to practice dialogue, but without losing their identity.

This process, the Pontiff clarified, requires reciprocity. The Christian community, for its part, must live the commandment of love taught by Christ, embracing with charity all immigrants. In turn, it is hoped that Christians living in Islamic countries will also be received well, and with respect for their religious identity. Reciprocity, it seems, is increasingly on the Vatican's mind when it comes to relations with the Islamic world.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; War on Terror
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1 posted on 05/28/2006 3:28:40 PM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: NYer; Admin Moderator
This was posted earlier by NYer in the "religious" category. I hope you will see fit to leave this post in the "news/activism"...this is real news.

Thx in advance for your consideration of this matter.

In this war, this is a major advance, IMHO.

2 posted on 05/28/2006 3:31:11 PM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: Dark Skies

bttt


3 posted on 05/28/2006 3:40:47 PM PDT by TEXOKIE (Wear Red on Fridays to support the troops!!)
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To: Dark Skies
I just picked up a copy of Christianity and the Crisis of Cultures, by Joseph Ratzinger / Pope Benedict XVI.

It promises to be a good read...

4 posted on 05/28/2006 3:44:15 PM PDT by NCjim (The more I use Windows, the more I love UNIX)
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To: Dark Skies
While Islamic nations openly discriminate against Christians and other non-Muslims, Muslims in the U.S. (aided by CAIR and the ACLU) are the first to yell discrimination.

In Kentucky, a Muslim girl, aided by CAIR and the ACLU, was successful in having a court issue an injunction against a high school graduation prayer.
5 posted on 05/28/2006 3:48:45 PM PDT by BW2221
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To: NCjim

I'm not Catholic (but have many wonderful Catholics in my extended family)...yet I am so happy with this Pope. Great guy, great world leader!


6 posted on 05/28/2006 3:48:55 PM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: Dark Skies
Time to wave this flag around with Old Glory and tell the muslims the US is the modern day knights templar and watch them shyte temselves rioting in the streets.Washington and Franklin were both free masons who had historic links to the templars. :))
7 posted on 05/28/2006 4:11:12 PM PDT by MARKUSPRIME
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To: Dark Skies

At this very moment in East Timor the muslims are burning Dili, the christians are being attacked by roving gangs with handguns and machette...some 200,000 Dili residents are hiding in the hills or seeking refuge in churches and at the airport. Australian troops are trying to disarm the 'gangs from the West' but are overwhelmed by the need to protect the christian civilian population...and the useless UN - who are pulling out.

The 'West Timor gangs' have not been named as muslims in any news reports I have seen. Neither has it been mentioned that the East Timor Prime Minister is a muslim. How many deaths, how many atrocities will we witness before someone dares to point out that islam is once more killing christians in Timor?

Two days ago, a mother and her four children were burned alive.

These atrocities are not being committed by 'disgruntled soldiers' as we are expected to believe. The killing, looting and burning of Christian East Timor is organised; it's islam doing what islam has been doing for 1400 years.


8 posted on 05/28/2006 4:14:47 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: Dark Skies
A good first step. The eyes are opening a tiny bit, but we must face the question of what to do when dialog fails and there is no reciprocity.
9 posted on 05/28/2006 4:15:43 PM PDT by Truth29
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To: Dark Skies

I'm with Anne Coulter on this one.


10 posted on 05/28/2006 4:20:03 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

Anne = Ann


11 posted on 05/28/2006 4:20:47 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Fred Nerks

These atrocities are not being committed by 'disgruntled soldiers' as we are expected to believe.

Well that's what the PM said.


12 posted on 05/28/2006 4:27:33 PM PDT by Valin (Purple Fingers Rule!)
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To: sitetest

How do you plan on doing it?


13 posted on 05/28/2006 4:28:13 PM PDT by Valin (Purple Fingers Rule!)
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To: Valin

Dear Valin,

Doing what?


sitetest


14 posted on 05/28/2006 4:29:36 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Valin

"Well that's what the PM said."

Diplomacy. What would we gain at this time from accusing Indonesia?

Could this action against East Timor be pay-back for allowing the 40 or so West Papuans refugee status, hmmm?


15 posted on 05/28/2006 4:39:58 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: sitetest

I believe what Ms Coulter advocates is that we should, "Invade their countries, kills their leaders, and convert the people to Christianity."

How do you propose to do that?


16 posted on 05/28/2006 5:08:29 PM PDT by brbethke
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To: brbethke

Dear brbethke,

"How do you propose to do that?"

I don't.


sitetest


17 posted on 05/28/2006 5:13:18 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Fred Nerks

Could this action against East Timor be pay-back for allowing the 40 or so West Papuans refugee status, hmmm?

You could be on to something.


18 posted on 05/28/2006 5:15:05 PM PDT by Valin (Purple Fingers Rule!)
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To: sitetest

believe what Ms Coulter advocates is that we should, "Invade their countries, kills their leaders, and convert the people to Christianity."

How do you propose to do that?


19 posted on 05/28/2006 5:15:53 PM PDT by Valin (Purple Fingers Rule!)
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To: Valin

Dear Valin,

As I said in #17, I don't.


sitetest


20 posted on 05/28/2006 5:18:21 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: sitetest

I'm with Anne Coulter on this one.

Then why did you say this?

"Invade their countries, kills their leaders, and convert the people to Christianity."
Anne Coulter makes these off the cuff remarks and people take them a serious idea.


21 posted on 05/28/2006 5:30:41 PM PDT by Valin (Purple Fingers Rule!)
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To: Valin

Dear Valin,

As you point out, Ms. Coulter didn't mean the remark seriously. It was hyperbole, tongue-in-cheek.

I'm with Ms. Coulter on this.

However, although I don't think Ms. Coulter literally meant that we should just invade all Islamic countries, kill all their leaders, and forcibly convert all the people to Christianity, there is significant truth in her remarks.

The first truth is that underlies her remarks that Islam is the problem. The second truth underlying her remarks is that the civilization that arose from Christianity didn't turn out half-bad.

With all this, I agree.


sitetest


22 posted on 05/28/2006 5:34:36 PM PDT by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
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To: Dark Skies

This is good news....finally, the big guns are starting to be concerned...


23 posted on 05/28/2006 5:38:31 PM PDT by thinking
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To: MARKUSPRIME

In Hoc Signo Vinces


24 posted on 05/28/2006 5:40:42 PM PDT by BlackjackPershing ("Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers." John Jay)
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To: Dark Skies
"The cardinal furthermore distinguished between a "twisted religion" that is used to justify hatred and violence, and true religion. True religion, he explained, points us to healing, honor and purity."

Methinksthe cardinal is a bit naive about this.

"Religion," per se, has absolutely nothing to do with "healing, honor and purity."

"Re" = again, "ligo" = to bind. Ie, "to bind again."

We, in the West, have been conditioned under the consesus of Christianity, that anything "religious" is automatically good and useful towards polite and civil society.

Islam qualifies as "religion," but neither polite nor civil.

25 posted on 05/28/2006 5:41:36 PM PDT by nightdriver
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To: MARKUSPRIME

The Cross of St. George. What a glorious sight!

Notice how the muslimes hate the word `Crusader'?

Wear both as a holy badge of honor!


26 posted on 05/28/2006 5:44:25 PM PDT by elcid1970
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To: Valin

I caught the tail-end of an old interview with Ali Alitas (sp) last night...and he was saying, in no uncertain terms, that East Timor would NEVER GAIN INDEPENDANCE -

There has to be a price to pay for proving him wrong...the muslims were killing the East Timorese for 25 years and islam never forgets...they will never forgive the Aussies for driving them out of East Timor.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200601/s1550708.htm

Jose Luis Guterres says the allegations will not be surprising for East Timorese. (File photo) (Reuters)

East Timor withholds abuse report
The East Timorese Government has withheld publication of a report claiming as many as 180,000 civilians may have died as a result of Indonesia's quarter-century occupation of the former Portugese colony.

Leaked copies of the report by the Commission for Reception, Truth and Reconciliation (CRTR) point to alleged widespread abuses by the Indonesian military including rape, the use of napalm and the poisoning of food supplies.

But the new East Timorese Government has withheld publication of the report, titled Enough!, saying it wants to look forward to better relations with its neighbour.

The report was handed to the East Timorese Government a few months ago and the Parliament there has been considering it ever since and President Xanana Gusmao will hand it to UN secretary-general Kofi Annan on Friday.

Detailing tactics allegedly used by the Indonesian military to kill off the resistance movement, the report says up to 180,000 East Timorese, or about a third of its pre-invasion population, died during the occupation from 1975 to 1999.

http://westpapuaaction.buz.org/newsletter/index.html

Arrival of West Papuan Asylum Seekers tests relations between Australian government and Indonesia Top

The Australian Government faces a potential new flashpoint in relations with Jakarta after 43 asylum seekers from West Papua landed by boat at Cape York.Australian Greens senator Kerry Nettle immediately called on the Government to "do the right thing" and grant the asylum seekers bridging visas. The 43 Papuans now kept on Christmas Island , who include independence activists, say they could be killed or persecuted if they are forced to return home -- a claim rejected by Jakarta . The President of Indonesia, Dr Susilo Yudhoyono, personally guaranteed to the Australia Prime Minister that the asylum-seekers would not be harmed if they returned to Indonesia .
A grant of asylum by Australia would confirm in the minds of some Indonesian policy-makers that Canberra was seeking to undermine Indonesian sovereignty over West Papua and encourage secessionist sentiment.
The Immigration office will make a final assessment on their applications by mid-April.

****

Susilo warns U.S. not to interfere in Papua Top

President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono warned the U.S. not to interfere in Indonesia's domestic affairs. The U.S. House of Representatives recently approved a bill on Papua, which if passed into law could increase international pressure for the Indonesian government to allow the people of the resource-rich Papua to vote whether to remain a part of Indonesia or become an independent nation.

Section 1115 of Bill No. 2061 especially questions the Act of Free Choice Indonesia held in 1969, when selected Papuan elders voted unanimously to join Indonesia "in circumstances that were subject to both overt and covert forms of manipulation", according to the bill. The bill asks the U.S. secretary of state to file a report analyzing the 1969 Act of Free Choice within 180 days after the enactment of the bill. Speaking to reporters during a visit to Shenzen, China, Yudhoyono said such intervention could affect relations between the two countries, which have begun to improve since his election last year and a visit to Washington in May. Indonesian foreign ministry spokesman Yuri Thamrin said he was confident Indonesia had room to maneuver diplomatically to block any potential negative impacts from the bill.










27 posted on 05/28/2006 5:47:54 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: nightdriver
The focus is not on religion...but...

True religion, he explained, points us to healing, honor and purity."
You are correct in that the operative work is not "religion"...it is Truth.

Islam is a false faith. Allah and his prophet Mohammed are "fallen." They are only interested in "ego."

"Ego" is the original sin...the eternal "I"...

28 posted on 05/28/2006 5:56:43 PM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: Valin

Genocide in West Papua

Message from Moses Werror, Chairman OPMRC:
What they (Indonesians) have done to Papuans since 1962 - 19 October 2005

Genocide in West Papua - Report - Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies - Sydney University - August, 2005 (2.35mb pdf file)

10 December 2003 International Human Rights Programs

Our Evidence 2 July 2002

HIV- AIDS Used As a Genocidal Strategy in West Papua

1 April 2000

NABIRE SITUATIONAL REPORT - February/March 2000

Biak Massacre 1998

Some of the Recorded Mass Genocide in West Papua

http://www.wpngnc.org/genocide.htm

AN INTRODUCTION TO THE GENOCIDE

Dr. Kees Lagerberg reported that an estimated 300,000 people had disappeared without trace. This is an awful lot of people in anybody's language, but it is more horrific if one considers that the estimated population of the territory was about 700,000 in the early 1960, and about one million in the 1980's, when Dr. Lagerberg made the claim. Thus 30% of the population has simply vanished from the face of this earth. A small portion of this could be explained, the aerial bombardment claimed 80,000 lives, exile and refugees at its highest [ 1984-1985] totaled 13,000, known massacres 13,000, that totals roughly 106,000. So, where did the remainder go? If one looks at the abysmal level of health care system for the rural population, the disease statistics meager though they are, one could not help but conclude that this population is rapidly declining directly or indirectly, as the result of Government policies, therefore man made policies. At the start of the accession to power in the territory, the [Indonesian] Government Policy was to eliminate all politically literate and educated West Papuan elite, because she feared that their presence will hamper the process of Indonisation. [see the "isolated" murders, and disappearances]. The Government's Family Planning Program which stresses the policy of smaller family size also spells disaster for this Melanesian race. Therefore there is an element of urgency to stem this decline lest this ethnic Melanesian race may not survive beyond the first two decades of next century.

In this account we will list as many accounts of killings and massacres as known to us. This list is by no means complete. It is constructed from many and varied sources: published works [Books, Newspapers, Journals], verbal and written accounts and reports from relatives and friends of the victims and general observers living on the spot or itinerant travelers through the territory, during the past 30 years.

http://www.wpngnc.org/genocide4.htm



29 posted on 05/28/2006 6:10:52 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: Valin
Hey V...I have always thought that Ann's "convert them" order demonstrated a deep ignorance of Christianity and its God. The Judeo/Christian G-d never stays where He isn't wanted. Hence, Ann's idea of conversion is a conceptual and Divine non-sequitor.

I haven't spoken with you for a while...but what are your thoughts lately about dealing with radical islam.

30 posted on 05/28/2006 6:34:20 PM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: MARKUSPRIME
"Let the deeds of your ancestors move you and incite your minds to manly achievements; the glory and greatness of king Charles the Great, and of his son Louis, and of your other kings, who have destroyed the kingdoms of the pagans, and have extended in these lands the territory of the holy church. Let the holy sepulchre of the Lord our Saviour, which is possessed by unclean nations, especially incite you, and the holy places which are now treated with ignominy and irreverently polluted with their filthiness. Oh, most valiant soldiers and descendants of invincible ancestors, be not degenerate, but recall the valor of your progenitors." Urban II
31 posted on 05/28/2006 6:48:37 PM PDT by pierrem15
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To: pierrem15
"From the confines of Jerusalem and the city of Constantinople a horrible tale has gone forth and very frequently has been brought to our ears, namely, that a race from the kingdom of the Persians, an accursed race, a race utterly alienated from God, a generation forsooth which has not directed its heart and has not entrusted its spirit to God, has invaded the lands of those Christians and has depopulated them by the sword, pillage and fire; it has led away a part of the captives into its own country, and a part it has destroyed by cruel tortures; it has either entirely destroyed the churches of God or appropriated them for the rites of its own religion.

They destroy the altars, after having defiled them with their uncleanness.

They circumcise the Christians, and the blood of the circumcision they either spread upon the altars or pour into the vases of the baptismal font.

When they wish to torture people by a base death, they perforate their navels, and dragging forth the extremity of the intestines, bind it to a stake; then with flogging they lead the victim around until the viscera having gushed forth the victim falls prostrate upon the ground.

Others they bind to a post and pierce with arrows. Others they compel to extend their necks and then, attacking them with naked swords, attempt to cut through the neck with a single blow. What shall I say of the abominable rape of the women? To speak of it is worse than to be silent.

The kingdom of the Greeks is now dismembered by them and deprived of territory so vast in extent that it can not be traversed in a march of two months. On whom therefore is the labor of avenging these wrongs and of recovering this territory incumbent, if not upon you? You, upon whom above other nations God has conferred remarkable glory in arms, great courage, bodily activity, and strength to humble the hairy scalp of those who resist you."

32 posted on 05/28/2006 6:58:29 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: brbethke
How do you propose to do that?

After we've run out of cheeks to turn (considering we all have a face and a buttocks), I suggest we turn to sidewinders, heat-seekers, lead and/or brass projectiles, with an occasional cruise launch mixed in.

The soft touch has never gotten Western powers any concessions amongst Muslim leaders.

The realization that they, the Muslim leaders and the Muslim radical clerics, will be in instant and mortal danger if they fail to correct anti Christian atrocities, should change the dynamics somewhat.

If not, then blood must be shed. Their agressive blood would be preferrable to innocent blood, dare I say.

And lest I (or anyone agreeing with me) be called a maniac psycho, I would ask for another plausible suggestion on how to stop the ever increasing violence against Westerners in general and Christians and Jews specifically.

33 posted on 05/28/2006 7:10:21 PM PDT by Edit35
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To: Fred Nerks
strength to humble the hairy scalp of those who resist you.

Not quite sure what to make of that one.

Benedict has been quietly reminding Muslims that the Christian world can also bring up a substantial litany of aggressions against it by the Ummah, should it desire to do so, and that they should take care lest their depredations provoke a certain form of Christian revival they would find most uncomfortable.

As I said to a friend preparing to join a Catholic religious order after a terrorist incident quite a few years back, it's been far too long since these scum have felt the bite of Christian steel.

34 posted on 05/28/2006 7:25:27 PM PDT by pierrem15
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To: pierrem15

"...strength to humble the hairy scalp of those who resist you."

Maybe in the original the word was latin for face?

Christians shaved where-as mohammad instructed his followers to grow beards...

I like the sound of 'strength to humble the hairy face of those who resist you.'

Don't you?


35 posted on 05/28/2006 7:35:59 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: Fred Nerks
That does sound a lot better.

I would say there's a lot in common between the looks of your average Islamofascist and a Barbary ape, but that's an insult to the apes.

36 posted on 05/28/2006 7:40:58 PM PDT by pierrem15
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To: Dark Skies

BTTT


37 posted on 05/28/2006 7:43:07 PM PDT by PGalt
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To: MojoWire

Agreed. The only thing the muslims understand is applied raw power, unmercifully. Read history. Nothing changes. The probe for weakness, find it and press, like bullies. They have no respect for any non-muslim, they're religion, in the end, disallows it. The infidels are either to be converted, killed or made second-class citizens. So it says in their holy book. The West needs to be educated on this matter again, and place rifle barrels squarely in the muslims face, ready to pull the trigger.Period.


38 posted on 05/28/2006 7:48:07 PM PDT by john drake (roman military maxim: "oderint dum metuant, i.e., let them hate, as long as they fear")
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To: pierrem15

It's simply too unkind to compare an animal of any species to a follower of the ROP.

Crocodiles? Make wonderful mothers, they are superb survivors, can live in a dried up clay pan for six months and kick-start their metabolism as soon as it rains...and they eat very little and not very often.

Pigs? Have a high IQ. Learn fast, can do tricks, and are clean, very clean, if not penned up.

Vultures are the sanitation squad. Not pretty, but efficient and also very intelligent...

Hyena? Now there's an idea...


39 posted on 05/28/2006 7:52:37 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: Fred Nerks

Lampreys. Like lampreys, almost every element of 'Islamic' culture is parasitic upon the technologies and concepts stolen from other peoples.


40 posted on 05/28/2006 8:06:30 PM PDT by pierrem15
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To: Dark Skies
...just as it is essential that Christians can freely worship in Riyadh or Kabul."

Chicken. They should be able to worship freely in Mecca.

41 posted on 05/28/2006 8:10:14 PM PDT by LoneRangerMassachusetts (Illegal Aliens will take down the Democrats and Republicans and give rise to a new American party)
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To: brbethke
I believe what Ms Coulter advocates is that we should, "Invade their countries, kills their leaders, and convert the people to Christianity."

How do you propose to do that?

Invade their countries, kill their Mullahs, and convert the people to Christians. One change in tactics. Make liberal use of Daisy Cutters and MOABS in pockets of resistance.

42 posted on 05/28/2006 8:16:17 PM PDT by LoneRangerMassachusetts (Illegal Aliens will take down the Democrats and Republicans and give rise to a new American party)
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To: brbethke
I believe what Ms Coulter advocates is that we should, "Invade their countries, kills their leaders, and convert the people to Christianity."

How do you propose to do that?

Invade their countries, kill their Mullahs, and convert the people to Christians. One change in tactics. Make liberal use of Daisy Cutters and MOABS in pockets of resistance.

43 posted on 05/28/2006 8:16:24 PM PDT by LoneRangerMassachusetts (Illegal Aliens will take down the Democrats and Republicans and give rise to a new American party)
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To: pierrem15

Parasitic Nomadic - like a slime-mould that travels...when times are lean the spores clump together into a wormlike creature and when times are good, the spores spread out...
Can't remember what it's called. But it isn't animal, it's a plantform...I think.

Lampreys are a good analogy, but don't lampreys also serve a cleansing function? They eat the bits that fall out of the host's mouth...

Hey, Google 'Islam Parasitic' and you'll find 193,000 entries...


44 posted on 05/28/2006 8:19:27 PM PDT by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: Dark Skies

what are your thoughts lately about dealing with radical islam.


Muslims will mot attack each other.

Give it up, DS.

Iman V has a sermon to prepare.


45 posted on 05/28/2006 8:23:51 PM PDT by bayouranger (The 1st victim of islam is the person who practices the lie.)
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To: Dark Skies
Napoleon once said that "God favors the side with the biggest battalions."

Stalin once asked how many battalions does the Pope have? None!.

Look at Poland today and the both statements come sharply into focus. Napoleon was right and Stalin was wrong.
The Moosies have under estimated us to their peril.
46 posted on 05/28/2006 8:35:34 PM PDT by truemiester (If the U.S. should fail, a veil of darkness will come over the Earth for a thousand years)
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To: Fred Nerks
Almost everything they ever developed was borrowed from others, art and architecture from the Persians and Byzantines, philosophy and theology from the Greeks, mathematics from the Indians and Greeks.

The only notable invention I can think of that has come from the Islamic world is the lateen sail.

47 posted on 05/28/2006 8:58:22 PM PDT by pierrem15
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To: pierrem15

"Almost everything they ever developed was borrowed from others, art and architecture from the Persians and Byzantines, philosophy and theology from the Greeks, mathematics from the Indians and Greeks."


http://www.ninevehsoft.com/fiorina.htm


What Arab Civilization?
This letter was sent to Carly Fiorina, CEO of Hewlett Packard Corporation, in response to a speech given by her on September 26, 2001.






November 7, 2001

Carly Fiorina
Hewlett-Packard
3000 Hanover Street
Palo Alto, CA 94304-1185

Dear Madame Fiorina:

It is with great interest that I read your speech delivered on September 26, 2001, titled "Technology, Business and Our way of Life: What's Next" [sic]. I was particularly interested in the story you told at the end of your speech, about the Arab/Muslim civilization. As an Assyrian, a non-Arab, Christian native of the Middle East, whose ancestors reach back to 5000 B.C., I wish to clarify some points you made in this little story, and to alert you to the dangers of unwittingly being drawn into the Arabist/Islamist ideology, which seeks to assimilate all cultures and religions into the Arab/Islamic fold.

I know you are a very busy woman, but please find ten minutes to read what follows, as it is a perspective that you will not likely get from anywhere else. I will answer some of the specific points you made in your speech, then conclude with a brief perspective on this Arabist/Islamist ideology.

Arabs and Muslims appeared on the world scene in 630 A.D., when the armies of Muhammad began their conquest of the Middle East. We should be very clear that this was a military conquest, not a missionary enterprise, and through the use of force, authorized by a declaration of a Jihad against infidels, Arabs/Muslims were able to forcibly convert and assimilate non-Arabs and non-Mulsims into their fold. Very few indigenous communities of the Middle East survived this -- primarily Assyrians, Jews, Armenians and Coptics (of Egypt).

Having conquered the Middle East, Arabs placed these communities under a Dhimmi (see the book Dhimmi, by Bat Ye'Or) system of governance, where the communities were allowed to rule themselves as religious minorities (Christians, Jews and Zoroastrian). These communities had to pay a tax (called a Jizzya in Arabic) that was, in effect, a penalty for being non-Muslim, and that was typically 80% in times of tolerance and up to 150% in times of oppression. This tax forced many of these communities to convert to Islam, as it was designed to do.

You state, "its architects designed buildings that defied gravity." I am not sure what you are referring to, but if you are referring to domes and arches, the fundamental architectural breakthrough of using a parabolic shape instead of a spherical shape for these structures was made by the Assyrians more than 1300 years earlier, as evidenced by their archaeological record.

You state, "its mathematicians created the algebra and algorithms that would enable the building of computers, and the creation of encryption." The fundamental basis of modern mathematics had been laid down not hundreds but thousands of years before by Assyrians and Babylonians, who already knew of the concept of zero, of the Pythagorean Theorem, and of many, many other developments expropriated by Arabs/Muslims (see History of Babylonian Mathematics, Neugebauer).

You state, "its doctors examined the human body, and found new cures for disease." The overwhelming majority of these doctors (99%) were Assyrians. In the fourth, fifth, and sixth centuries Assyrians began a systematic translation of the Greek body of knowledge into Assyrian. At first they concentrated on the religious works but then quickly moved to science, philosophy and medicine. Socrates, Plato, Aristotle, Galen, and many others were translated into Assyrian, and from Assyrian into Arabic. It is these Arabic translations which the Moors brought with them into Spain, and which the Spaniards translated into Latin and spread throughout Europe, thus igniting the European Renaissance.

By the sixth century A.D., Assyrians had begun exporting back to Byzantia their own works on science, philosophy and medicine. In the field of medicine, the Bakhteesho Assyrian family produced nine generations of physicians, and founded the great medical school at Gundeshapur (Iran). Also in the area of medicine, (the Assyrian) Hunayn ibn-Ishaq's textbook on ophthalmology, written in 950 A.D., remained the authoritative source on the subject until 1800 A.D.

In the area of philosophy, the Assyrian philosopher Job of Edessa developed a physical theory of the universe, in the Assyrian language, that rivaled Aristotle's theory, and that sought to replace matter with forces (a theory that anticipated some ideas in quantum mechanics, such as the spontaneous creation and destruction of matter that occurs in the quantum vacuum).

One of the greatest Assyrian achievements of the fourth century was the founding of the first university in the world, the School of Nisibis, which had three departments, theology, philosophy and medicine, and which became a magnet and center of intellectual development in the Middle East. The statutes of the School of Nisibis, which have been preserved, later became the model upon which the first Italian university was based (see The Statutes of the School of Nisibis, by Arthur Voobus).

When Arabs and Islam swept through the Middle East in 630 A.D., they encountered 600 years of Assyrian Christian civilization, with a rich heritage, a highly developed culture, and advanced learning institutions. It is this civilization that became the foundation of the Arab civilization.

You state, "Its astronomers looked into the heavens, named the stars, and paved the way for space travel and exploration." This is a bit melodramatic. In fact, the astronomers you refer to were not Arabs but Chaldeans and Babylonians (of present day south-Iraq), who for millennia were known as astronomers and astrologers, and who were forcibly Arabized and Islamized -- so rapidly that by 750 A.D. they had disappeared completely.

You state, "its writers created thousands of stories. Stories of courage, romance and magic. Its poets wrote of love, when others before them were too steeped in fear to think of such things." There is very little literature in the Arabic language that comes from this period you are referring to (the Koran is the only significant piece of literature), whereas the literary output of the Assyrians and Jews was vast. The third largest corpus of Christian writing, after Latin and Greek, is by the Assyrians in the Assyrian language (also called Syriac; see here.)

You state, "when other nations were afraid of ideas, this civilization thrived on them, and kept them alive. When censors threatened to wipe out knowledge from past civilizations, this civilization kept the knowledge alive, and passed it on to others." This is a very important issue you raise, and it goes to the heart of the matter of what Arab/Islamic civilization represents. I reviewed a book titled How Greek Science Passed to the Arabs, in which the author lists the significant translators and interpreters of Greek science. Of the 22 scholars listed, 20 were Assyrians, 1 was Persian and 1 an Arab. I state at the end of my review: "The salient conclusion which can be drawn from O'Leary's book is that Assyrians played a significant role in the shaping of the Islamic world via the Greek corpus of knowledge. If this is so, one must then ask the question, what happened to the Christian communities which made them lose this great intellectual enterprise which they had established. One can ask this same question of the Arabs. Sadly, O'Leary's book does not answer this question, and we must look elsewhere for the answer." I did not answer this question I posed in the review because it was not the place to answer it, but the answer is very clear, the Christian Assyrian community was drained of its population through forced conversion to Islam (by the Jizzya), and once the community had dwindled below a critical threshold, it ceased producing the scholars that were the intellectual driving force of the Islamic civilization, and that is when the so called "Golden Age of Islam" came to an end (about 850 A.D.).

Islam the religion itself was significantly molded by Assyrians and Jews (see Nestorian Influence on Islam and Hagarism: the Making of the Islamic World).

Arab/Islamic civilization is not a progressive force, it is a regressive force; it does not give impetus, it retards. The great civilization you describe was not an Arab/Muslim accomplishment, it was an Assyrian accomplishment that Arabs expropriated and subsequently lost when they drained, through the forced conversion of Assyrians to Islam, the source of the intellectual vitality that propelled it. What other Arab/Muslim civilization has risen since? What other Arab/Muslim successes can we cite?

You state, "and perhaps we can learn a lesson from his [Suleiman] example: It was leadership based on meritocracy, not inheritance. It was leadership that harnessed the full capabilities of a very diverse population that included Christianity, Islamic, and Jewish traditions." In fact, the Ottomans were extremely oppressive to non-Muslims. For example, young Christian boys were forcefully taken from their families, usually at the age of 8-10, and inducted into the Janissaries, (yeniceri in Turkish) where they were Islamized and made to fight for the Ottoman state. What literary, artistic or scientific achievements of the Ottomans can we point to? We can, on the other hand, point to the genocide of 750,000 Assyrians, 1.5 million Armenians and 400,000 Greeks in World War One by the Kemalist "Young Turk" government. This is the true face of Islam.

Arabs/Muslims are engaged in an explicit campaign of destruction and expropriation of cultures and communities, identities and ideas. Wherever Arab/Muslim civilization encounters a non-Arab/Muslim one, it attempts to destroy it (as the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan were destroyed, as Persepolis was destroyed by the Ayotollah Khomeini). This is a pattern that has been recurring since the advent of Islam, 1400 years ago, and is amply substantiated by the historical record. If the "foreign" culture cannot be destroyed, then it is expropriated, and revisionist historians claim that it is and was Arab, as is the case of most of the Arab "accomplishments" you cited in your speech. For example, Arab history texts in the Middle East teach that Assyrians were Arabs, a fact that no reputable scholar would assert, and that no living Assyrian would accept. Assyrians first settled Nineveh, one of the major Assyrian cities, in 5000 B.C., which is 5630 years before Arabs came into that area. Even the word 'Arab' is an Assyrian word, meaning "Westerner" (the first written reference to Arabs was by the Assyrian King Sennacherib, 800 B.C., in which he tells of conquering the "ma'rabayeh" -- Westerners. See The Might That Was Assyria, by H. W. F. Saggs).

Even in America this Arabization policy continues. On October 27th a coalition of seven Assyrian and Maronite organizations sent an official letter to the Arab American Institute asking it to stop identifying Assyrians and Maronites as Arabs, which it had been deliberately doing.

There are minorities and nations struggling for survival in the Arab/Muslim ocean of the Middle East and Africa (Assyrians, Armenians, Coptics, Jews, southern Sudanese, Ethiopians, Nigerians...), and we must be very sensitive not to unwittingly and inadvertently support Islamic fascism and Arab Imperialism, with their attempts to wipe out all other cultures, religions and civilizations. It is incumbent upon each one of us to do our homework and research when making statements and speeches about these sensitive matters.

I hope you found this information enlightening. For more information, refer to the web links below. You may contact me at keepa@ninevehsoft.com for further questions.

Thank you for your consideration.

Peter BetBasoo

http://www.aina.org/aol/peter/brief.htm


48 posted on 05/29/2006 12:29:04 AM PDT by Fred Nerks (Read the bio THE LIFE OF MUHAMMAD free! Click Fred Nerks for link to my Page.)
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To: bayouranger
Hey BR!

I like what the Aussies are doing and it would be great if the U.S. and Europe did the same. Also, the Pope's "demand" for reciprocity is another huge step in the right direction.

Ultimately, I think modernity (with the internet and free speech) will expose islam for what it is, but I am very worried about nukes in the hands of any group of islamic fundamentalist. They will use them in an attempt to drive the world back into primitive Talibanistan.

Except for the nukes, I am feeling hopeful.

Hope all is well with you.

49 posted on 05/29/2006 5:49:52 AM PDT by Dark Skies
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To: Dark Skies
Hope all is well with you.

Thanks, and it is as of now.

I'll optimistic as well, although once we focus more upon iran, I feel that we may finally paint them into a corner which will force even the "moderates" to come home and roost.
Take care DS, BR
Either way they lose. islam has a knack for digging its own grave with their own followers. Let's just move out and continue defending civilization.
50 posted on 05/29/2006 3:13:11 PM PDT by bayouranger (The 1st victim of islam is the person who practices the lie.)
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