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What's Lost in the Hue and Cry Over Haditha
Washington Post ^ | June 3, 2006 | Frank Schaeffer

Posted on 06/03/2006 12:09:50 PM PDT by baseball_fan

snip...In this war, we do not have enough political leaders and opinion-makers receiving soul-searing letters from their children. Their sons and daughters are notably absent from our military. That's too bad.

A personal connection to our wars might discourage the sort of glib hubris that leads the media to trumpet events such as the Haditha killings without putting them in the context of the everyday heroism that is the norm, or in the context of history. And a personal connection to our military by our political leaders would give them a stake in our troops' welfare and what we are asking them to do.

...snip

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtonpost.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: haditha; iraq
the author's hypothesis of why there too often appears to be "glib hubris" and a "I-told-you-so" mentality among political leaders, the media and opinion-makers and what would need to change before that changes
1 posted on 06/03/2006 12:09:54 PM PDT by baseball_fan
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To: baseball_fan

And what's the so-called author's son doing these days? Smoking dope? Surfing child porn sites? Protesting at US Military funerals?

Just curious...


2 posted on 06/03/2006 12:16:29 PM PDT by butternut_squash_bisque (The recipe's at my FR HomePage. Try it!)
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To: baseball_fan

The author is out of touch.


3 posted on 06/03/2006 12:17:08 PM PDT by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker! (Charlie Mike, son))
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To: butternut_squash_bisque; bnelson44
Do you people even read the articles?????
4 posted on 06/03/2006 12:21:34 PM PDT by avg_freeper (Gunga galunga. Gunga, gunga galunga)
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To: avg_freeper

I think not!


5 posted on 06/03/2006 12:24:38 PM PDT by MEG33 (GOD BLESS OUR ARMED FORCES)
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To: bnelson44

"The author is out of touch."

?

from the article: "I am proud my son volunteered, and of his two tours in Afghanistan and his mission in Iraq. And he is glad he served his country. I wish all Americans had a gut connection to the troops so they would know that people like my son don't kill civilians and that they anguish over the vicissitudes of war."


6 posted on 06/03/2006 12:25:36 PM PDT by baseball_fan
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To: avg_freeper

Obviously not.


7 posted on 06/03/2006 12:30:06 PM PDT by WhistlingPastTheGraveyard
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To: avg_freeper
Do you people even read the articles?????

I think that they're upset 'cause the author "dissed" not just Left-Wing "journalists" and peaceniks, but "flag-waving" pro-war types. They don't understand, apparently, that you can hate war, and still believe that the War on Terror has to be prosecuted.

8 posted on 06/03/2006 12:30:33 PM PDT by pawdoggie
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To: baseball_fan

Sorry, didn't see that.

I don't think he is correct though.


9 posted on 06/03/2006 12:30:52 PM PDT by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker! (Charlie Mike, son))
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To: bnelson44
Yet I am proud my son volunteered, and of his two tours in Afghanistan and his mission in Iraq. And he is glad he served his country. I wish all Americans had a gut connection to the troops so they would know that people like my son don't kill civilians and that they anguish over the vicissitudes of war.

Don't be put off by the fact it's the WaPo. It's a good article smacking the armchair critics of our military.

10 posted on 06/03/2006 12:32:12 PM PDT by hsalaw
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To: baseball_fan

I just saw on"Newsmax"that a 12-year old(girl)has indicated that she knew of the impending attack on The Marine convoy.She was wounded when The Marines entered her house(following the attack)and began shooting.Now,I don't know many details concerning this affair,but if The Marines had confirmed that these people had prior knowledge of this attack,then they also knew who planted the IED!!!


11 posted on 06/03/2006 12:34:38 PM PDT by bandleader
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To: avg_freeper
From the article, he quotes his son:
"In a natural state a human will kill, and kill not always for necessity, but for convenience as well. The only way that I know I am still me is that I hate that fact; I hate it more than anything I have ever known."
Sounds like the son is rather anti-war to me. Kill for convenience?? He'd best not let his superiors hear that attitude expressed. Besides, military training and discipline is supposed to move a person away from their 'natural state'.

Also form the article:

Frank Schaeffer is co-author of "AWOL: The Unexcused Absence of America's Upper Classes from the Military and How it Hurts Our Country."
Nope, absolutely no agenda there.
12 posted on 06/03/2006 12:38:20 PM PDT by Bob
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To: Bob
"Nope, absolutely no agenda there."

There is an agenda to his writing and this is it:

"I am proud my son volunteered, and of his two tours in Afghanistan and his mission in Iraq. And he is glad he served his country."
Now spin that any way you want.
13 posted on 06/03/2006 12:42:21 PM PDT by avg_freeper (Gunga galunga. Gunga, gunga galunga)
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To: avg_freeper

Proudly posting replies without reading the entire articles, since Jan 06.

Nope.


14 posted on 06/03/2006 12:51:03 PM PDT by butternut_squash_bisque (The recipe's at my FR HomePage. Try it!)
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To: baseball_fan

On Memorial, I remember reading about a Cobra gunship being shot down and the crew missing. Does anyone know the latest?


15 posted on 06/03/2006 12:57:19 PM PDT by ruschpa
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To: baseball_fan
"...people like my son don't kill civilians and that they anguish over the vicissitudes of war."

He is correct. People like his son do not intentionally kill civilians, but in the so called "fog" of battle it all to often does happen.

If you were not in the "fog" with those Marines at Haditha, you will never know or understand what really happened there. If you had been there, you would have felt the blast, smelled its pungent odor. Even though your ears were ringing you would have heard your wounded comrades cry out. You would have heard shooting, but you may not have known from where it was coming, and your platoon leader may have thought the shooting was coming from the houses nearest to you. Your training would have taken over at that time, and you and your squad would have attacked. Suppressing fire would have been put on the houses until your squad was close enough to hurl grenades into the houses, and as soon as the grenades exploded, you and your squad would have rushed inside and shot everything you saw.

If you have attacked the wrong houses, God may forgive you, but you will remember those dead women and children for the rest of your life.

Only God and those who were there in Haditha at the time can judge those Marines, and you can't believe the Iraqis.

16 posted on 06/03/2006 1:10:15 PM PDT by DJ Taylor (Once again our country is at war, and once again the Democrats have sided with our enemy.)
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To: baseball_fan

War is Hell, and you cannot refine it.

Sherman had it right. Even the most moral war is a sewer, but it does not negate the need to fight and win wars.

I'm afraid that if the politicians and opinion makers (elected officials and the MSM) had relatives at the "sharp end" the net result would be zero, or close to it.

Perhaps if we pursued the author's line of thought to the point where only combat vets could make policy on combat there would be a change.

My father, a WWII infantry vet, darkly told me before I deployed in the WOT that I should do whatever I had to do to return alive, but measure my actions by the simple idea that I had to live with whatever I did or I was better off dead and honored. I thought he was being melodramatic, I know now that he was merely stating the obvious.


17 posted on 06/03/2006 1:13:58 PM PDT by M1911A1
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To: Bob
Nope, absolutely no agenda there.

He's an opinion writer. He's supposed to have an agenda.

18 posted on 06/03/2006 1:32:50 PM PDT by inkling
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To: baseball_fan
Another insightful paragraph;

Judging by Lewis's diary -- and many other accounts -- the so-called Greatest Generation of World War II was often badly led and worse-behaved, and was certainly less merciful than our present-day soldiers and their leaders. We haven't carpet-bombed Baghdad or nuked Fallujah to spare the lives of our troops. Yet most Americans are glad we forced Italy, Germany and Japan to become democracies, however brutal our means

And an acknowledgment of the New World Order Rules Of Engagement;

Sixty years later and caught up in another war, we are confronted by the massacre in Haditha. And we are also caught up in the anguish of another generation of young men and women asked to kill but to keep killing within "civilized" bounds, to take insults, be fired upon by men hiding behind women and children, yet not respond in kind

19 posted on 06/03/2006 1:38:51 PM PDT by 4woodenboats (The GOP was created by those opposed to Southern Democrat Plantation Slavery...)
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To: M1911A1

"I'm afraid that if the politicians and opinion makers (elected officials and the MSM) had relatives at the "sharp end" the net result would be zero, or close to it."

the columnist did seem influenced by the fact that his own son has served. maybe its a start. keeping the interests of the "elites" in alignment with the average citizen when called upon to go to war through service of their own close relatives might be one of the more important democratic protections that could be implemented. the question then would be whether to support such a policy through social pressure or a draft.

one would not want to go overboard in saying there could never be criticism of how a war is conducted unless they had a close relative involved. also, i don't know that he was necessarily saying it would influence whether a close relative is for or against a war, but that it does reduce patronizing attitudes, which itself would be a big relief, and creates the political pressure to ensure the troops get everything they need.

thank you for your service.


20 posted on 06/03/2006 2:13:42 PM PDT by baseball_fan
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To: 4woodenboats

Both reiligions, Islam and Political Correctness are our enemies. God bless this man's son.


21 posted on 06/03/2006 2:18:59 PM PDT by wildcatf4f3 (Islam Schmislam blahblahblah, enough already!)
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To: baseball_fan

Good points, and well thought out.

I am mindful that Cindy Sheehan had a son killed in Iraq, and Murtha was himself a Vietnam vet.

It seems that there is no qarunteed path to wisdom in this respect, or at least there are some glaring exceptions to the rule.


22 posted on 06/03/2006 2:19:54 PM PDT by M1911A1
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To: butternut_squash_bisque
Proudly posting replies without reading the entire articles, since Jan 06. Nope.

With that strategy then you don't mind looking like a fool at times and expressing opinions that are at variance with the truth. I expect that will always be pointed out to you.

As an after thought, why do you even visit FR if you don't read the articles?

23 posted on 06/03/2006 3:05:52 PM PDT by Mind-numbed Robot (Not all that needs to be done, needs to be done by the government.)
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To: avg_freeper
Do you people even read the articles?????

I'll second this!

24 posted on 06/03/2006 3:32:48 PM PDT by Fruitbat
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To: Bob
Nope, absolutely no agenda there.

The author's points, at least in the article as the sole source, were salient and valid.

Does he have an agenda? How about getting up out of your chair to go prove it?

He may, but less lipservice and more work! But dangitall there son, if we base whether or not any given author "has an agenda" based on one piece and the single title of a book, then I dare say, just about every writer alive would have an agenda!

If anything, any "agenda" that I may have taken was that he's got an issue with the ruling class. Well, so do I! They're all a bunch of prima donna self-servants posing as people sacrificing something while slaving through the weeks as if what they do is some sort of horrid, laborious, and onerous job w/o any perks or benefits otherwise.

It's the ruling class that's killing our country. Most of them don't know a damn thing about daily life in America for anyone but their own fat asses.

25 posted on 06/03/2006 3:37:55 PM PDT by Fruitbat
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To: butternut_squash_bisque

Actuallly, his son was a Marine and served in Iraq or Afghanistan, I believe. I didn't read the whole article, but his book focuses on the fact that too many of the people in Congress have not only NOT served, they do not have children in the service...and as such, do not know enough about the people who defend this country. Of course, Murtha...the worst of the lot..is a former Marine who so totally hates President Bush that he has abandoned the men and women who defend this country to the point of treason. Frank Schaeffer did not serve in the military and was at first unhappy that his son had decided to do so...he changed his mind totally.


26 posted on 06/03/2006 3:49:43 PM PDT by t2buckeye
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To: baseball_fan
"I am proud my son volunteered, and of his two tours in Afghanistan and his mission in Iraq. And he is glad he served his country. I wish all Americans had a gut connection to the troops so they would know that people like my son don't kill civilians and that they anguish over the vicissitudes of war."

I dunno - if I was among those U.S. senators calling our military civilian killers and nazis, and losers, I'd not be calling for the military troops' immediate return to the U.S. What if the military is so aggravated they confront the "citizen" senators with the truth of their antagonistic accusations? Patriotic Justice?
27 posted on 06/03/2006 5:49:39 PM PDT by purpleland (Elegy 9/11/01 Vigilance and Valor! Socialism is the Opiate of Academia)
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