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The Horrors Really Are Your America, Mr Bush (Another conservative turncoat jumps the shark)
The Sunday Times ^ | June 4, 2006 | Andrew Sullivan

Posted on 06/03/2006 5:50:22 PM PDT by quidnunc

"This is not America." Those words were President George W Bush’s attempt to explain the horrors of Abu Ghraib prison on the Arabic-language network Alhurra in 2004. He spoke the words as if they were an empirical matter, but a cognitive dissonance could be sensed through them.

If the men and women who tortured and abused and murdered at Abu Ghraib did not represent America, what did they represent? They wore the uniforms of the United States military. They were under the command of the American military. In the grotesque, grinning photographs they clearly seemed to believe that what they were doing was routine and approved.

And we now know from the official record that Donald Rumsfeld, the defence secretary, had personally authorised the use of unmuzzled dogs to terrify detainees long before Abu Ghraib occurred, exactly as we saw in those photos. Does the secretary of defence not represent America?

Almost two years after the torture story broke Congress finally roused itself and passed an amendment to a defence appropriations bill by John McCain that forbade the use of any "cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment" of detainees by any American official anywhere in the world. It was passed by veto-proof margins and Bush signed it. But he appended a "signing statement" insisting that, as commander-in-chief, he retained the right to order torture if he saw fit.

And so on May 18 the nominee for CIA director, Michael Hayden, was asked directly by Senator Dianne Feinstein whether he regarded "waterboarding" as a legitimate interrogation technique. Hayden replied: "Let me defer that to closed session, and I would be happy to discuss it in some detail."

Huh? Why a closed session? Isn’t the law crystal clear? Isn’t strapping a person to a board, tilting him so that his head is below his feet, and pouring water through a cloth into his mouth to simulate drowning a form of "cruel, inhuman and degrading" treatment? And isn’t that illegal? In America? Or is that not America either?

-snip-


TOPICS: Editorial; Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: andrewsullivan; andypants; candyandy; candypants; randyandypants
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1 posted on 06/03/2006 5:50:25 PM PDT by quidnunc
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To: quidnunc

Another queer pretend conservative showing his/her/its true nature.


2 posted on 06/03/2006 5:53:41 PM PDT by FormerACLUmember (No program, no ideas, no clue: The democrats!)
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To: quidnunc

I don't think Andrew's been on the rez for a long while.


3 posted on 06/03/2006 5:55:11 PM PDT by RichInOC ("Rule One: NO POOFTERS!")
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To: FormerACLUmember

Andrew Sullivan: One of the leading "neoconservatives" who hysterically pushed us into the Iraq War and now have the baldfaced nerve to criticize tactics and by implication, the best men and women we put on the battlefield in Iraq.


4 posted on 06/03/2006 5:56:14 PM PDT by laconic
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To: quidnunc

Hard to even feel sorry for this pervert anymore.


5 posted on 06/03/2006 5:56:40 PM PDT by OldFriend (I Pledge Allegiance to the Flag.....and My Heart to the Soldier Who Protects It.)
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To: RichInOC; quidnunc

He has been strongly anti-Bush and anti-Iraq ever since Bush first came out in favor of the constitutional amendment defining marriage.


6 posted on 06/03/2006 5:56:47 PM PDT by bnelson44 (Proud parent of a tanker! (Charlie Mike, son))
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To: quidnunc
Isn’t strapping a person to a board, tilting him so that his head is below his feet, and pouring water through a cloth into his mouth to simulate drowning a form of "cruel, inhuman and degrading" treatment? And isn’t that illegal? In America? Or is that not America either?

Anti Gay Twit Sarcasm Torpedo ARMED. FIRE!!

By all accounts, that's nothing compared to what goes on among "consenting adults" in gay bathhouses and elsewhere, eh, Andy?

Why don't you pick a fight with Harvard's Alan Dershowitz who once agreed torture would be justifiable to prevent another terrorist attack...He's a liberal, just like you.

Nice try, though.

7 posted on 06/03/2006 5:57:36 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: quidnunc

Dude, where you been? IIRC Andrew jumped the shark a long time ago.



8 posted on 06/03/2006 5:57:38 PM PDT by Dinah Lord (fighting the Islamic Jihad - one keystroke at a time...)
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To: quidnunc

NO ONE was tortured and abused unless you count those who had their heads cut off by those murdering scum who are the enemy! This just infuriates me!


9 posted on 06/03/2006 5:57:48 PM PDT by ladyinred
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To: laconic

Sullivan's allegance was always to the queer agenda above all else.


10 posted on 06/03/2006 5:58:42 PM PDT by FormerACLUmember (No program, no ideas, no clue: The democrats!)
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To: quidnunc

Oh, dear; not Andrew Sullivan's whining again. His rants are a form of torture, and he's less of a conservative than my cat.


11 posted on 06/03/2006 5:59:29 PM PDT by hsalaw
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To: bnelson44
bnelson44 wrote: He has been strongly anti-Bush and anti-Iraq ever since Bush first came out in favor of the constitutional amendment defining marriage.

Yes, this has more to do with Andy's loins than with his principles.

12 posted on 06/03/2006 6:00:20 PM PDT by quidnunc (Omnis Gaul delenda est)
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To: quidnunc
There was an unfortunate tendency during the 90's to label every one who was not enamored with Clinton as a "Conservative".

Andrew Sullivan falls in this catagory.

13 posted on 06/03/2006 6:00:36 PM PDT by Harmless Teddy Bear (Every lady in this land hath 20 nails on each hand five and twenty on hand and feet)
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To: quidnunc
Isn’t strapping a person to a board, tilting him so that his head is below his feet, and pouring water through a cloth into his mouth to simulate drowning a form of "cruel, inhuman and degrading" treatment?

Actually no, it isn't. No actual physical harm is done.

Now taking a blowtorch and a pair of pliers to the genitalia of captured 'insurgents' might be considered cruel by some. Put me on the jury and I'll let the Intel weenies walk on that one every time.

L

14 posted on 06/03/2006 6:00:38 PM PDT by Lurker (Real conservatives oppose the Presidents amnesty proposal. Help make sure it dies in the House.)
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To: quidnunc

I don't think it was a shark he jumped.


15 posted on 06/03/2006 6:01:05 PM PDT by Tribune7
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To: quidnunc

Anyone taking issue with what he said, rather than ad hominem drive-bys?

Let's look at this for a moment... if we can do these things to unconvicted detainees, then why can't we do them to convicted felons? Why aren't we waterboarding convicted felons?

Because of legal decisions... so that leads to... is America a nation ruled by law anymore?


16 posted on 06/03/2006 6:01:19 PM PDT by Gondring (If a "Conservative" now wants to "conserve" our Constitution away, then I must be a Preservative!)
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To: quidnunc

Andy has obviously been listening to too many Neil Young albums and listening to tapes of Hanoi Boi's campaign speeches. He was for the war on terrorism before he was against it. Shut up Andy. Just shut up and let the adults do what has to be done. It's a dirty job but someone has to do it.


17 posted on 06/03/2006 6:03:26 PM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (DemocRATS! America's Lynch Mob.)
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To: RichInOC

Yeah, it didn't take long for him to be 100% anti-Bush after the gay marriage issue.


18 posted on 06/03/2006 6:06:32 PM PDT by AmishDude (Everybody loves AmishDude)
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To: quidnunc

Andrew has never been a real conservative. He is the most vile, hate-filled writer of today. He constantly whines about everyone and everything. Why anyone would bother to read his garbage is beyond me.


19 posted on 06/03/2006 6:07:13 PM PDT by NinoFan
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To: FormerACLUmember

I doubt Sullivan was ever a conservative.


20 posted on 06/03/2006 6:08:11 PM PDT by darkangel82
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To: hsalaw
Oh, dear; not Andrew Sullivan's whining again. His rants are a form of torture, and he's less of a conservative than my cat.

That cat's a lousy commie, that's for sure.

21 posted on 06/03/2006 6:08:22 PM PDT by AmishDude (Everybody loves AmishDude)
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To: quidnunc
If the men and women who tortured and abused and murdered at Abu Ghraib did not represent America, what did they represent? They wore the uniforms of the United States military. They were under the command of the American military. In the grotesque, grinning photographs they clearly seemed to believe that what they were doing was routine and approved.

Murdered? What happened at Abu Ghraib under the command of U.S. forces wasn't much more in the way of torture than a college sorority hazing incident. The liberal slimes in the media are beyond help, their overwhelming hate of the U.S. military, and the Bush administration in particular, is off any scale remotely close to normalcy.

22 posted on 06/03/2006 6:08:42 PM PDT by BluH2o
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To: Gondring
if we can do these things to unconvicted detainees, then why can't we do them to convicted felons?

By international law, the detainees are spies -- or worse. Summary execution is the most humane possible outcome. Felons are a domestic matter.

23 posted on 06/03/2006 6:11:10 PM PDT by AmishDude (Everybody loves AmishDude)
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To: quidnunc

24 posted on 06/03/2006 6:19:11 PM PDT by Diogenesis (Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum)
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To: FormerACLUmember

Ha ha, maybe he should marry that Huffington woman, she's an expert.


25 posted on 06/03/2006 6:19:45 PM PDT by 1066AD
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To: Gondring
"Let's look at this for a moment... if we can do these things to unconvicted detainees, then why can't we do them to convicted felons?"

The "unconvicted detainees" as you call them, are terrorist suspects. Like spies caught behind the battle lines, out of uniform, they have no rights.

This isn't someone suspected of stealing a car or of shoplifting, this is a war, and if they want to get involved in a war with America, they better put on a freaking uniform if they expect any rights at all!
26 posted on 06/03/2006 6:20:14 PM PDT by Beagle8U (Juan Williams....The DNC's "Crash test Dummy" for talking points.)
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To: quidnunc

"...the use of unmuzzled dogs to terrify detainees long before Abu Ghraib occurred..." NOT TORTURE!

BTW, Excerpt:



That’s what makes a picture like Invasion of the Body Snatchers important. [1]
[1958 Blk/Wht film classic]
This theme is directly expressed in the film by McCarthy's character, who says at one point:

In my practice, I've seen how people have allowed their humanity to drain away. Only it happened slowly instead of all at once. They didn't seem to mind...All of us--a little bit--we harden our hearts, grow callous. Only when we have to fight to stay human do we realize how precious it is to us, how dear. [2]
Later, the psychiatrist Gates, himself turned into a pod person, gives a speech that sounds like Siegel's musings on the attractions of conformity:

Your new bodies are growing in there. They're taking you over cell for cell, atom for atom. There is no pain. Suddenly, while you're asleep, they'll absorb your minds, your memories and you're reborn into an untroubled world...Tomorrow you'll be one of us...There's no need for love...Love. Desire. Ambition. Faith. Without them, life is so simple, believe me. [3]




27 posted on 06/03/2006 6:20:15 PM PDT by purpleland (Elegy 9/11/01 Vigilance and Valor! Socialism is the Opiate of Academia)
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To: quidnunc

He hasnt been a "conservative" since '03. He does like to advertise for male sex partners (tops, specifically) on the internet, though, in case anyone cares.


28 posted on 06/03/2006 6:21:02 PM PDT by Nonstatist
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To: AmishDude
By international law, the detainees are spies -- or worse.

Huh?!? Sez who? We have admitted that many of the detainees were innocents picked up in dragnets, or turned in by unscrupulous informants (rival clans, etc.)!

29 posted on 06/03/2006 6:24:50 PM PDT by Gondring (If a "Conservative" now wants to "conserve" our Constitution away, then I must be a Preservative!)
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To: quidnunc

Andy Andy Andy. What a shame that you have to insist on blaming a whole country for the actions a few. Could you possibly have an agenda?


30 posted on 06/03/2006 6:28:58 PM PDT by Earthdweller
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To: quidnunc

How does he qualify as a conservative?


31 posted on 06/03/2006 6:31:24 PM PDT by editor-surveyor (Atheist and Fool are synonyms; Evolution is where fools hide from the sunrise)
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To: quidnunc
Let's follow the "logic" of this latest screed by Andrew Sullivan. If nations are indeed responsible for what their citizens do, then it was Britain that bombed the London Tubes. It was Saudi Arabia that bombed the WTC. And it was Yemen that bombed the USS Cole.

More British bullsh*t. Did I miss anything?

P.S. New info. My primary is over, but because of legal and ethical problems, the incumbent may withdraw/be forced out. He is also losing in the latest poll (5/28) to the Democrat challenger. I seek to be the replacement nominee. For more information see my website. I still need your help.

Congressman Billybob

Latest article: "Ray Nagin -- 'Good and Hard' "

32 posted on 06/03/2006 6:42:20 PM PDT by Congressman Billybob (www.ArmorforCongress.com)
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To: Gondring

Sez the Geneva Conventions and the Rules of War.


33 posted on 06/03/2006 6:49:39 PM PDT by John Valentine
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To: Diogenesis; Congressman Billybob

Not an atrocity bump!

Replacement nominee bump!


34 posted on 06/03/2006 6:54:25 PM PDT by PGalt (Sullivan - who cares?)
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To: quidnunc

If the men and women who tortured and abused and murdered at Abu Ghraib


NO murder occurred at Abu Ghraib...no one ever said they murdered anyone...and actions there did not constitute "torture" in the sense of what occurred there under Saddam Hussein. Abu Ghraib was bad, BUT not torture.


35 posted on 06/03/2006 7:00:57 PM PDT by t2buckeye
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To: quidnunc

actually, Andrew's ticked that W jumped into the homosexual marriage issue, so decided to attack him on Abu Gharib


36 posted on 06/03/2006 7:05:16 PM PDT by EDINVA
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To: EDINVA

With Andrew Sullivan around, you really need someone protecting your backside.


37 posted on 06/03/2006 7:08:51 PM PDT by BW2221
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To: Harmless Teddy Bear
There was an unfortunate tendency during the 90's to label every one who was not enamored with Clinton as a "Conservative". Andrew Sullivan falls in this catagory.

Good point. Sullivan probably disliked Clinton for his "Don't ask, don't tell" policy.

38 posted on 06/03/2006 7:10:18 PM PDT by paudio
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To: quidnunc

Sullivan's been out of his freakin' mind for years now. This comes as no suprise.


39 posted on 06/03/2006 7:13:38 PM PDT by Zeroisanumber
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To: quidnunc
"If the men and women who tortured and abused and murdered at Abu Ghraib did not represent America, what did they represent?"

I do not this jerks reputation. I do know from what I read here that he is full of sheite.

40 posted on 06/03/2006 7:18:27 PM PDT by Radix (Stop domestic violence. Beat abroad.)
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To: quidnunc
murdered at Abu Ghraib

Did I miss a meeting..who was murdered at Abu Ghraib???

41 posted on 06/03/2006 7:33:06 PM PDT by BerniesFriend
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To: quidnunc

Andrew Sullivan is no conservative.


42 posted on 06/03/2006 7:37:09 PM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It. Supporting our Troops Means Praying for them to Win!)
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To: RichInOC

Naw, he's been very liberal and anti-Bush for a few years now.


43 posted on 06/03/2006 7:48:36 PM PDT by bboop (Stealth Tutor)
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To: quidnunc

Andrew Sullivan eats ----.


44 posted on 06/03/2006 7:55:18 PM PDT by MrCruncher
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To: darkangel82
I doubt Sullivan was ever a conservative.

I agree. I think his earlier support for the war probably had a lot to do with his being against Islam's view of homosexuality. Like Christopher Hitchens, he just doesn't like traditional religious belief, and so supported the war.

45 posted on 06/03/2006 7:56:35 PM PDT by Unam Sanctam
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To: FormerACLUmember
Sullivan's allegance was always to the queer agenda above all else."""

True. But a lot of freepers couldn't praise him enough when he was supporting the Iraq invasion. Never mind that he's a liberal pervert - freepers were calling him a "conservative" because he supported an invasion that Hillary also supports. Meanwhile, genuine small-government conservatives like myself - a Goldwater-Reagan conservative of 40 years standing - were blasted as "liberals" or "leftists" because we questioned the need for the invasion of Iraq.

46 posted on 06/03/2006 8:00:30 PM PDT by churchillbuff
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To: quidnunc

Andrew Sullivan was a MSM wetdream of what they wanted a conservative to be. They got a kick out of balancing their panels with Sullivan as a conservative when his homosexuality was an anthema to 99 per cent of conservatives. But he is so misanthropic that even the MSM has seemed to stop giving him face time on the tube. His time to do a David Brock may be near. I wonder if Hillary has anyone on her staff that Andy can fall in love with.


47 posted on 06/03/2006 8:06:37 PM PDT by Biblebelter
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To: quidnunc
And we now know from the official record that Donald Rumsfeld, the defence secretary, had personally authorised the use of unmuzzled dogs to terrify detainees long before Abu Ghraib occurred, exactly as we saw in those photos. Does the secretary of defence not represent America?

Does anyone believe that after 9/11 we weren't going to, at some level, get down in the dirt and take it to these monsters?

Yes we must do our best to uphold and represent our ideals, but war is a dirty business and Andrew really is behaving like an over the top queen.

48 posted on 06/03/2006 8:16:08 PM PDT by zarf
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To: quidnunc

They killed thousands of innocent Americans. Whatever it takes to prevent that from happening again.


49 posted on 06/03/2006 8:40:24 PM PDT by Colorado Cowgirl (God bless America!)
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To: quidnunc

cognitative dissonance bump


50 posted on 06/03/2006 8:41:32 PM PDT by thomaswest (Just curious)
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