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US-Russia relations deteriorating sharply, experts warn
The Financial Times ^ | June 7 2006 03:00 | Guy Dinmore

Posted on 06/06/2006 11:22:15 PM PDT by vertolet

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To: RusIvan

Me too.


51 posted on 06/08/2006 1:37:03 AM PDT by Roy Tucker
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To: RusIvan

American interests are what American foreign policy is about. Your complaint is not a new one. We hear this about American foreign policy in the Middle East and Latin America whenever we support less than democratic regimes.

What is more important in American foreign policy: protecting and projecting American interests or promoting democracy? I happen to think the former. It's nice if they coincide, but let's be realistic.

Cheney pointed out that Russia has backslid on democracy since Putin took office. True or not?

Do you mean to say that democracy is not in the interest of Russia?


52 posted on 06/08/2006 2:02:58 AM PDT by Roy Tucker
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To: Roy Tucker

Cheney pointed out that Russia has backslid on democracy since Putin took office. True or not? ==

The cardinal question. Honestly I would say that russian democracy is far behind american. And Russia needs long way to go.

But Cheney critisized Russia on hypocritical presumptions and simply wrong examples. So Cheney's critics are wrong and nontrustworsy.

But the answer about the progress of russian democracy - I not sure what it will be in that point. Probably something better then in TUrkey but worser then in France:).


53 posted on 06/08/2006 2:36:45 AM PDT by RusIvan
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To: spanalot

Mass human misery is a terrible thing to behold. It makes those who do behold it ashamed and uncomfortable.

To weigh the misery of one group of people against that of another and state that one is greater is the height of arrogance and demeans the sufferers on both sides of the purported scales. Before you try to make any claim that I was weighing one against the other I point out that I only juxtaposed them, and made no claim that one was greater than or more worthy of retribution than the other. But you did attempt to weigh them and by doing so you proved yourself a pathetic little thing.

I compared elections in Russia to elections in Chicago, and you have no answer to that. So instead you raise subject matters unrelated to elections inside Russia in the hopes of disguising your intellectual bankruptcy.

I tore apart your squalid little five point quite easily and this seems to enrage you.

I regard your expressions of contempt as having in the same weight as the promises of a six-year-old to "HATE YOU FOREVER!!!" as expressed to his father when dad says it is time to go to bed and the child doesn't want to.

A person less restrained than I might suggest that you cut the Sarah Bernhardt b******t.


54 posted on 06/08/2006 3:15:48 AM PDT by Cheburashka (World's only Spatula City certified spatula repair and maintenance specialist!!!)
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To: RusIvan

"Spanalot again with your usual bull*:). You know that 100 millions is not that dramatic "

Bite your tongue - you will meet them someday.


55 posted on 06/08/2006 7:17:53 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: vertolet
"Relations between the US and Russia are deteriorating badly..."

The "experts" just now realized this? Things have been going down hill every since Comrade Putin came into power.

56 posted on 06/08/2006 7:19:58 PM PDT by CWOJackson
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To: Cheburashka; Jim Robinson

"I compared elections in Russia to elections in Chicago, and you have no answer to that."

I don't think you like the American way of life, do you ?

Sure , there's lots of speculation about some precinct ballots in one election in Chicago a long time ago, but you use this to slander our great history of democracy.

We are the longest living constitutional cemocracy in the history of the world and you slander this to promote Russia.


57 posted on 06/08/2006 7:23:05 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: RusIvan

You point out correctly that democracy has different speeds and paths of development in different countries (France v Turkey), so your main criticism of Cheney's remarks is that he didn't blast Kazakhstan for their lack of democracy. Kazakhstan is clearly behind Russia in terms of democratic development, but you think that should be his primary message to Nazarbayev should be to democratize. Because if that isn't the message then Bush is being hypocritical. This strikes me as naive.

Do you think his blasting of Belarus as "the last dictatorship in Europe" was justified or just hypocritical?

Should Cheney not criticize any country if they regress in terms of democracy because other countries are even further behind?


58 posted on 06/08/2006 11:23:31 PM PDT by Roy Tucker
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To: spanalot
I don't think you like the American way of life, do you ?

We are the longest living constitutional cemocracy in the history of the world and you slander this to promote Russia.

---
I love America, and as a person who loves America I do not ignore her faults. I would love to see the Daley machine annihilated, totally destroyed. It is a Democratic vote fraud machine that every election adds stolen votes to the Democratic Party. This is not a one-time deal in 1960, this is every election since the Thirties. Federal, state, local.

As an aside, we are not the oldest democracy. Switzerland is. If you want to quibble about your use of the word constitutional, go ahead.

I certainly prefer the U.S. to Switzerland, although I commend Switzerland for its use of the concept of a militia consisting of every able-bodied male Swiss. Every able-bodied Swiss must own a weapon. It convinced the German Army that a small landlocked country in the middle of Europe was far too hard a nut to crack in two world wars.

You see how it works? You can believe America is great, and want it to be greater, and look to other countries to find new ideas that might make the U.S. even better. Not that there are many countries that do even one thing better than America. Very few can claim even one thing.

The fact I find one thing commendable in Switzerland does not mean I would trade American citizenship for Swiss.

You hide behind the U.S. and claim I slander it. Nonsense.

You made presumptuous demands that Russia kow-tow to your ridiculous demands, demands that would never be met by any people with self respect. I pointed out your presumptuousness by demonstrating that what it would be like if any country made such outrageous demands of the United States. That such outrageous demands would be rejected out of hand is obvious, and rightly so.

The only target of my posts is your presumption. Nothing else. I tend to be blunt, and am not a skilled wordsmith. I come to Free Republic mostly to learn, and to a much lesser extent to teach. Composing large posts is difficult for me, I do not like to do it, I am not learning while I am writing, and learning is my first priority. So realize that posts to you have been a considerable investment of my time, time I seriously considered not spending, but still did. I do not presume to have changed your opinions, on anything, but perhaps you will consider other aspects of questions, everything is not so obvious as it might appear on the surface.

On the other hand, you may just consider me a flatulent gasbag. If so, I've wasted my time with you.
59 posted on 06/08/2006 11:56:50 PM PDT by Cheburashka (World's only Spatula City certified spatula repair and maintenance specialist!!!)
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To: Cheburashka

"This is not a one-time deal in 1960, this is every election since the Thirties. Federal, state, local."

You must be on drugs - or an unabashed Russophile.
We know who you are too and stop slandering "ever election" in ANY part of this country.

Russia has been a blight to humanity and your straw dog fallacy will never change it.


60 posted on 06/09/2006 2:53:46 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot
You obviously know nothing about Cook County, Illinois and its history of vote fraud under the Daley Democratic Machine. Decades and decades of voter fraud. If you wish to defend it with out learning anything about it you prove yourself a fool.
You know nothing about me.
I laugh at your personal accusations about me, which say more about your state of mind than they do about me.
You are tempting me to make fun of you. You will have to start contributing something to this conversation, or I will discontinue responding to you.
61 posted on 06/10/2006 12:24:55 AM PDT by Cheburashka (World's only Spatula City certified spatula repair and maintenance specialist!!!)
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To: Clemenza

Whats the difference between an Italian widow and a whale?


62 posted on 06/10/2006 12:27:52 AM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: Cheburashka

"You obviously know nothing about Cook County, Illinois"

Listen to me . I know what you are. You use small incidents in the US to whitewash hundreds of years of despotism in Russia. I love to use the Cook County stuff to beat up on Democrats as much as the next FReeper. But I DONT use it to say "How can you criticize Russia when the same thing happens in the US".

Stop slandering MY country - and here is what really happened afer the recount in Cook county.





In Illinois, the appeal was pursued more vigorously, maybe because the electoral take was higher (27) and Kennedy's margin slimmer (9,000 votes). Charges focused on Cook County (specifically Chicago) where Kennedy had won by a suspiciously overwhelming 450,000 votes.

National GOP officials plunged in. Thruston Morton flew to Chicago to confer with Illinois Republican leaders on strategy, while party Treasurer Meade Alcorn announced Nixon would win the state. With Nixon distancing himself from the effort, the Cook County state's attorney, Benjamin Adamowski, stepped forward to lead the challenge. A Daley antagonist and potential rival for the mayoralty, Adamowski had lost his job to a Democrat by 25,000 votes. The closeness of his defeat entitled him to a recount, which began Nov. 29.

Completed Dec. 9, the recount of 863 precincts showed that the original tally had undercounted Nixon's (and Adamowski's) votes, but only by 943, far from the 4,500 needed to alter the results. In fact, in 40 percent of the rechecked precincts, Nixon's vote was overcounted. Displeased, the Republicans took the case to federal court, only to have a judge dismiss the suits. Still undeterred, they turned to the State Board of Elections, which was composed of four Republicans, including the governor, and one Democrat. Yet the state board, too, unanimously rejected the petition, citing the GOP's failure to provide even a single affidavit on its behalf...

A recount did wind up changing the winner in one state: Hawaii. On Dec. 28, a circuit court judge ruled that the state—originally called Kennedy's but awarded to Nixon after auditing errors emerged—belonged to Kennedy after all. Nixon's net gain: -3 electoral votes.




How many recounts have ever occurred in Russia.


63 posted on 06/10/2006 6:32:12 AM PDT by spanalot
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To: RusIvan
After his this trick NO one can tell now that America is serious on democracy.

No one of your ilk.

Fortunately, you are as irrelevant to democracy or America's 'seriousness' about it as it gets.

Cut the crap, Vanjusha... but you won't, am I right?

64 posted on 06/11/2006 1:17:48 AM PDT by Neophyte (Nazis, Communists, Islamists... what the heck is the difference?)
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To: Cheburashka
I compared elections in Russia to elections in Chicago...

How about comparing the dunset on Earth to that on Venus?

65 posted on 06/11/2006 1:21:55 AM PDT by Neophyte (Nazis, Communists, Islamists... what the heck is the difference?)
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To: Neophyte

Oups, it's sunset, not dunset! Sorry for the typo.


66 posted on 06/11/2006 1:32:34 AM PDT by Neophyte (Nazis, Communists, Islamists... what the heck is the difference?)
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To: Roy Tucker

Should Cheney not criticize any country if they regress in terms of democracy because other countries are even further behind?==

Yes especially if he bashes one country for "slide on democracy" then visits another which much more "sliding" and praises thier leader.

From aside prerspective it seems as extreme double standard. Which in turn gives the reason to Putin to say to all country that "they forgot thier pathos about democracy when concern thier interests". You see? The image of America in eyes of average russian was tainted by Cheney trick.


67 posted on 06/11/2006 1:34:56 AM PDT by RusIvan
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To: Neophyte

Fortunately, you are as irrelevant to democracy or America's 'seriousness' about it as it gets.==

Yeah I see. "Comrade wolf" eats whoever he wants and don't listen no objections. The "democracy" thing is just for dupes:).


68 posted on 06/11/2006 1:38:50 AM PDT by RusIvan
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To: spanalot
Russia which tried to kill the Pres of Ukraine several times

So how do you explain the fact that after all these attempts Yushchenko is very alive and kicking while Milosevic whom nobody tried to poison in the Kevorkian Hague is dead?

69 posted on 06/11/2006 1:41:45 AM PDT by A. Pole (Joanne Senier-LaBarre: "We Wish You a Swinging Holiday!")
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To: zarf

>>>>John Mroz, founder and president of EWI,

>>What's this guy's political affiliation and to whom has he donated moolah?

$1000 to Dubya in 1999. From a search of the database at www.fec.gov (try it some time, it's easy):

Contributions to Political Committees

MROZ, JOHN E
NEW YORK, NY 10023
EAST WEST INSTITUTE

BUSH, GEORGE W
VIA BUSH FOR PRESIDENT INC.
06/18/1999 1000.00 99034572798

Total Contributions: 1000.00


70 posted on 06/11/2006 1:44:13 AM PDT by FreedomPoster (Guns themselves are fairly robust; their chief enemies are rust and politicians) (NRA)
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To: A. Pole
So how do you explain the fact that after all these attempts Yushchenko is very alive and kicking while Milosevic whom nobody tried to poison in the Kevorkian Hague is dead?

The fact that there is a God.
71 posted on 06/11/2006 1:44:43 AM PDT by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: RusIvan

Well, it is too bad that his comments were not well received by the average Russian. I guess he won't be invited to Russia any time soon.


72 posted on 06/11/2006 4:49:55 AM PDT by Roy Tucker
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To: Cheburashka; Admin Moderator

"I compared elections in Russia to elections in Chicago, and you have no answer to that."

I know you compared Russia with the US - "every local, state and federal election" and "its been ggoing on for years".

That is a common ploy by Russian marxist/relativists. Its called a Straw Dog and it a fallacy wherein an issue irrelevent to the debate is raised to equivocate judgement in the first. The debate is US reaction to Russias recent hamfisting and the Mother Goose Marxist replies with "well the US is just as bad as Russia because of Cook County so don't criticize Russia".

I responded to your silly comment by noting that elections in free republics are contested in a bipartisan manner. Russia does not have this and even if it did, it would not negate Russia's recent despotry.


73 posted on 06/11/2006 6:55:47 AM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot; Cheburashka; GarySpFc

"
I responded to your silly comment by noting that elections in free republics are contested in a bipartisan manner. Russia does not have this and even if it did, it would not negate Russia's recent despotry."

Once again, and as usual, you are WAY off mark. Comparisions of vote-rigging and election fraud in the US are quite relevant - or are you endorsing the Democrat Party? You've managed to defend them in your post, so why not endorse them. The DemoRats are professionals at finding dead people and illegal aliens to vote in elections - Chicago is a good example of the DemoRat machine (Daly) in action. But instead, you'd rather take their side than accept a legitimate argument because the person making it appears to be Russian.

Once again, you doubt the strength of the US - we can admit and recognize our weak areas with the goal of improving them. There is nothing wrong in this. But, you would rather use the "communist" tactic of not only allying yourself with the DemoRats, but "pinging" in a moderator in a lame attempt to get someone who sees through your ethnicity-based hatred banned. That's right - "inform" on someone who sees you for what you are in the hopes you can have him banished. Weak. And lame.


74 posted on 06/11/2006 8:05:29 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: spanalot; GarySpFc

"Russia has been a blight to humanity and your straw dog fallacy will never change it."

Interesting statement. You admit to being from that part of the world. This means you share their heritage. In short, you're admitting to being a part of this "blight to (SIC) humanity."


75 posted on 06/11/2006 8:08:05 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: Romanov; Tailgunner Joe

"Comparisions of vote-rigging and election fraud in the US are quite relevant - or are you endorsing the Democrat Party? "

Romanov, you are an endless source of Fallacies of Debate.

This one is called the false dilemma - your comparison of elections in Russia and the US is a seperate issue from endorsing the Dems (which I dont).

I hope this is not a shock to you , but it is quite logical for me to deny your absurd comparison of Russian and US elections without being a Democrat (duh).

bwaha


76 posted on 06/12/2006 3:55:03 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot

Unfortunately spanalot you left out one HUGE thing - when you were "debating" (quotations, because your debating style consists soley of "ethnic based hate") you were trying (vainly) to slam Cheburashka by inferring the US doesn't have fraud in its elections. ANY fraud is wrong and bad - regardless of the country.


77 posted on 06/12/2006 5:08:06 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: Romanov

"ANY fraud is wrong and bad - regardless of the country."

Only if one wants to deflect attention away from real despotisms like Putin.

How dare you compare elections in the US with Russian election fraud in Russia.


78 posted on 06/12/2006 5:13:40 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot

"How dare you compare elections in the US with Russian election fraud in Russia."

Why not - it's very similar or are you defending your Democratic Party AGAIN?


79 posted on 06/12/2006 5:20:53 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: Clemenza
"The only thing Russia exports to the U.S. is slutty, manipulative ex-prostitutes who find a sucker to marry them and bring them into the country."

Wow, where can I find me one of my very own..... will she look like Maria Sharapova???? /just kidding, really
80 posted on 06/12/2006 5:24:00 PM PDT by Enchante (General Hayden: I've Never Taken a Domestic Flight That Landed in Waziristan!)
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To: Romanov

""How dare you compare elections in the US with Russian election fraud in Russia.""

"Why not - it's very similar..."

That hole you're digging is getting deeper.


81 posted on 06/12/2006 5:28:24 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot; GarySpFc

Not really spanalot - shall we bring up the numerous times your Democrat Party has committed fraud in order to "win" elections? The only hole being dug here is the hole of hypocrisy colored in your usual "tint" of false patriotism. Don't think for one moment you can label my description of YOUR Democrat Party and their numerous documented cases of fraud during elections throughout the years as some sort of defense of any election fraud in any part of the world. Sure, you'll try - but all in vain.

See, spanalot, Americans can recognize when we have problems, and then we resolve them. That gives us the "upper hand" when addressing such issues - sure people can say, "It happened in America" but we can answer, "And we're working on it (or we've eliminated that problem)"

Since you don't actually believe in a strong America you actually make us look weak by your panicked hissy fits you have whenever the topic of Eastern Europe comes up.

And as I recall, it was FR member "Spanalot" and not "Romanov" who made the statement that he thought "Putin is an honest man..." Shall I dig up that quote of yours again?


82 posted on 06/12/2006 5:50:30 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: Romanov

"It happened in America" but we can answer, "And we're working on it (or we've eliminated that problem)"

Youre talking out of both sides of your mouth again - first you deflect attention from Russian despotism by saying American elections are just as bad - and now youre wrapping yourself in MY American flag - you cant have it both ways.

And as you can't substantiate the absurd slander that Im a democrat, stop lieing.


83 posted on 06/12/2006 6:05:51 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: spanalot

HA! Now that's funny. Talk about slander - You claim I'm saying American elections are just as bad. That's not what I said. And you know it. Come back to the debate when you learn a little about honesty and integrity.


84 posted on 06/12/2006 6:28:24 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: Clemenza
The only thing Russia exports to the U.S. is slutty, manipulative ex-prostitutes who find a sucker to marry them and bring them into the country.

That is because the majority of American men seeking Russian women go there thinking with the wrong head. I searched for a Proverbs 31 lady in American churches for over 10 years, and found mostly sluts. I never considered going to Russia, but after meeting one lovely Russian lady here in Kansas I started my search. Six months later I found her in Volgograd, Russia, and one year later I married the lady I had spent so many years seeking. My wife is the classiest Proverbs 31 lady in my church.
85 posted on 06/12/2006 9:56:10 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: Clemenza; GarySpFc

"The only thing Russia exports to the U.S. is slutty, manipulative ex-prostitutes who find a sucker to marry them and bring them into the country."

Hmmm.. Sounds like the musings of one of their victims. Most of those "men" who find the few "manipulative ex-prostitutes" bring the pain on themselves. There are plenty of warning signs they choose to ignore, instead blinding themselves in search of that "trophy" wife.


86 posted on 06/12/2006 10:01:19 PM PDT by Romanov
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To: spanalot
How dare you compare slavery to the genocide of 100 million in the last century.

Last week on one thread you changed the total from 100 to 200 million within 10 posts. Your imagination runs to the extreme, but then you have been caught many times posting from Ukranian Nazi sites.

How dare you compare Chicago politics to Russia which tried to kill the Pres of Ukraine several times - and which has killed political opponents within its own borders by the MILLIONS.

Even the Ukranian President Yushchenko now admits it was not anyone in the Russian government who tried to kill him. No, it was one of his own Ukranian countrymen. You are beneath contempt.

87 posted on 06/12/2006 10:14:36 PM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: Romanov; Admin Moderator; Tailgunner Joe

"Comparisions of vote-rigging and election fraud in the US are quite relevant"

"You claim I'm saying American elections are just as bad. That's not what I said."

I smell a troll - time for major zotage.


88 posted on 06/13/2006 7:32:21 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: GarySpFc

"My wife is the classiest Proverbs 31 lady in my church."

"She sets about her work vigorously; her arms are strong for her tasks."
Proverbs 31




I would imagine that the work she did for Putin was vigorous and warmly welcomed.


89 posted on 06/13/2006 7:38:41 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: RusIvan
Whole Russia sees that then people realizes that Cheney is just clown.

Whole world see that Putin is just clown. /heavy Russian accent

90 posted on 06/13/2006 7:42:34 PM PDT by FreeReign
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To: spanalot; GarySpFc

"I smell a troll - time for major zotage"

Sure, I'm a "troll" (/sarcasm). Yep, been a troll since the "Impeach Clinton" Freep at the Washington Monument in the '90s.


This is a tried and true tactic with you. Someone destroys you on the issues and shows your hypocrisy and frequent lies - then you "ping" in the Admin Moderator OR Jim Robinson in an attempt to get the person who disagrees with you banned. Usually after you selectively quote the person - using the tactics you Democrats are good at using when trying to lie your way through life.

What this shows is you are NO different than your Soviet brothers who would "inform" on their neighbors after a disagreement. They'd inform with the hopes that the neighbor would be "banished" to the GULags. It's not a surprise at all that you would be a fan of such techniques.

Coward.


91 posted on 06/14/2006 6:54:28 AM PDT by Romanov
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To: spanalot

When a man will insult another man's wife it shows the depths they will sink to in order to get the other person banned.


92 posted on 06/14/2006 8:21:08 AM PDT by GarySpFc (Jesus on Immigration, John 10:1)
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To: spanalot; GarySpFc

"I would imagine that the work she did for Putin was vigorous and warmly welcomed."

I'm more interested in knowing why your parents were able to keep "thousands" of acres in Western Ukraine AFTER the famine. Sounds to me like some sort of reward from the Soviets. Or was the "thousands" claim another of your frequent lies?


93 posted on 06/14/2006 8:50:32 AM PDT by Romanov
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To: vertolet

Georgia is too small to be independent between two or three strong states. The US shouldn't be involved in the region for long, and is there only because of the collapse of the USSR's influence in the region. As Russia regains its health to whatever degree it may, the US should back out.


94 posted on 06/14/2006 8:53:17 AM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: Romanov

"I'm more interested in knowing why your parents were able to keep "thousands" of acres in Western Ukraine AFTER the famine"

Look at a post WWI map - the area was not under soviet control ----yet.


95 posted on 06/14/2006 4:32:52 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: GarySpFc

"When a man will insult another man's wife"

Did I ever mention my gender?

Also, i only alluded to the assignment your wife did for Putin. You posted a glowing comment about it.


96 posted on 06/14/2006 4:35:01 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: RightWhale; Romanov

"The US shouldn't be involved in the region for long, and is there only because of the collapse of the USSR's influence in the region. As Russia regains its health to whatever degree it may, the US should back out."

I see that you use Russia and the USSR interchangeably.

Good for You!


97 posted on 06/14/2006 4:37:36 PM PDT by spanalot
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To: headstamp

The russians and chinese could give a fat rat's ass how many "civilians" our troops kill.


98 posted on 06/14/2006 4:40:34 PM PDT by Scotsman will be Free
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To: spanalot

I don't have a problem with that political jazz. It's the same people, maybe the same piece of brass on their office doors.


99 posted on 06/14/2006 4:40:53 PM PDT by RightWhale (Off touch and out of base)
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To: Clemenza

Wrong. They sent us a hell of a lot of criminals.


100 posted on 06/14/2006 4:41:46 PM PDT by Scotsman will be Free
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