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Teacher Salaries: More Attention Needed to Specifics ( The Millionaire Next Door)
EducationNews.org ^ | June 16, 2006 | David W. Kirkpatrick

Posted on 06/17/2006 5:15:15 AM PDT by wintertime

One of the ongoing controversies in the public schools is the issue of teacher salaries. Teachers largely claim they are too low while taxpayers are equally vehement that they are more than adequate.

(snip)

Then there are the actual salary levels. Statistics in 2005 showed the average teacher salary in the nation was $46,762, ranging from a low of $33,236 in South Dakota to $57,337 in Connecticut. Even this ignores the additional compensation teachers receive as fringe benefits, which may add an additional 33% or more to the costs, primarily for very good retirement and health coverage plans. Further, averages include starting teacher salaries, which may begin at $30,000 or less, which teachers gladly mention, but ignore the high salaries of career teachers at or near the maximum on their salary schedule, important because retirement pensions are often based on the best three or so years.

(snip)

Last year, the New York State Department of Education issued a study that reported maximum teacher salaries in that state of $100,000 or more and median salaries as high as $98,000 per year. That is, there were districts, in Westchester County for example, where half of the teachers earned more than $98,000 a year.

A novel approach a few years ago by Michael Antonucci, director of the Education Intelligence Agency in California, compared teachers average salaries to average salaries all workers state by state. First prize went to Pennsylvania where the teachers received 62.5% more than the average employee. That difference is even greater when it is further considered that teachers average a 185 day work year while most workers put in 235.

(snip) Women who had been educators were 7.4% of the total deceased that year but 20.6% of them, nearly three times the statistical expectation were among the affluent few. Former male educators didn't do quite as well but even they were represented among the wealthy decedents by a ratio nearly 1.5 times the anticipated numerical ratio.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: education; educrats; govwatch; notbreakingnews; teacherpay; teachers
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To: BJungNan

If you want to save, go to your school board and ask them to cut the salaries of the administrators. †hat of the average superintendent is five-10 times that of the beginning teacher. But what builds up cost is the empire-building. A superintendent has to have sveral assts, who in tern have much clerical help to do the work while the manager goes to meaning. By and large the ration of nonclassooom personel in the Public schools is about the same as the ratyionb of officers to enlisted in the military, even though every school teacher is a college grdauates and should not need all that supervision.


401 posted on 06/17/2006 9:37:34 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS
If you want to save, go to your school board and ask them to cut the salaries of the administrators.

It would be much easier to simply let taxpayers spend their money on the school of their choice. Put competition into the education system and it would quickly correct itself.

402 posted on 06/17/2006 9:40:57 PM PDT by BJungNan
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To: BJungNan

That's not going to happen. NBame one political leader who has pushed vouchers. They know that most voters live in neighborhood where the schools are good enough for them. They know that they schools ar e not as good as private schools, but then the kids go on to do well enough in college, and meanwhile mom and pop don't have to pay those high tuition rates.


403 posted on 06/17/2006 9:46:49 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS
That's not going to happen. NBame one political leader who has pushed vouchers. They know that most voters live in neighborhood where the schools are good enough for them. They know that they schools ar e not as good as private schools, but then the kids go on to do well enough in college, and meanwhile mom and pop don't have to pay those high tuition rates.

You miss a significant point. There is no high tuition rate, at least not another one, when a parent is allowed to move their child to a private school.

Mom and Pop have already paid. They would simply be moving their child and their dollars to a school of their choice.

You miss another significant point. It is not the parents that would not want to be able to put their children in the school of their choice. It is the politicians that will not let them.

I really can not stand it when people come on here that are either grossly uninformed or are purposely trying to distort the issus.

404 posted on 06/17/2006 10:24:16 PM PDT by BJungNan
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To: BJungNan
If you had bothered to read all my posts you would have read that it was not typical for teachers to be in that early. You would have read that I had six different classes (i.e. six different subjects) to prepare for everyday, and that I was a first year teacher. If you would have continued to read my posts, you would have also found out that I admitted that it may not take as much time this year because I still teach six classes, but I have only 4 subjects I will teach, and I have the benefit of a year of experience.

I don't know what the typical teacher puts in each day, I can simply say that in my first year as a teacher I put in anywhere from 15-18 hours a day.

As for wanting to go up against me in court, I am still licensed to practice law, come find you a case in OK and get special permission to practice here and we will try the case, that is if you are attorney. If you are not an attorney, then you have no clue what your talking about and should simply quit talking out of your a*s.

405 posted on 06/18/2006 4:58:10 AM PDT by alvindsv
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To: BJungNan

Where they heck did that post come from

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

From a Marxist.

There should be a bumper sticker that reads:

I am a Marxist. Thank a government school teacher.


406 posted on 06/18/2006 5:05:41 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid.)
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To: RobbyS

They know that most voters live in neighborhood where the schools are good enough for them.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

It has to do with the education industrial complex. This is similar to what Ike Eisenhower call the "military-industrial-complex".

In my former county the school system employed more people than any other industry. Do you think you would ever see vouchers in that county? Forget it!


407 posted on 06/18/2006 5:11:36 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid.)
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To: HighWheeler

All she does is bitch and complain about her "long hours" and the "daily commute." She's a liberal, but the funny thing is she despises the California teacher's union, the fact that she has to be a member to have/keep her job, and the mandatory dues she has to pay.


408 posted on 06/18/2006 5:24:50 AM PDT by moose2004 (You Can Run But You Can't Hide!)
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To: rwfromkansas

But her husband is an optical engineer, so between the two of them they live pretty well.


409 posted on 06/18/2006 5:26:15 AM PDT by moose2004 (You Can Run But You Can't Hide!)
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To: LoneRangerMassachusetts
I suggest you invest your money in a company that pays its CEO what it pays a worker. Put your money where your socialist heart is. That is if you really believe your premise.

Good Answer!

Remember Ben & Jerry's attempt?
410 posted on 06/18/2006 5:43:41 AM PDT by BabsC
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To: Burlem

I know. The link I sent to you in
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1651012/posts?page=238#238
was for California schools.


411 posted on 06/18/2006 5:59:48 AM PDT by bwteim (bwteim = Begin With The End In Mind / Must I always use a sarcasm off tag??)
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To: wintertime

While I agree that some districts have built Taj Mahals, your statement is a generalization. For every "expensive, largest, most beautifully maintained and manicured building and grounds in the entire community" there is probably a town where the high school is in an aging facility.

Also, you do realize that this is also a Catch 22? If a school is NOT maintained and grounds are not kept up, there's heck to pay as well. There'd be a long complaint line if our local schools were not well maintained.


412 posted on 06/18/2006 6:07:23 AM PDT by bwteim (bwteim = Begin With The End In Mind / Must I always use a sarcasm off tag??)
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To: BJungNan
You miss a significant point. There is no high tuition rate, at least not another one, when a parent is allowed to move their child to a private school. Mom and Pop have already paid. They would simply be moving their child and their dollars to a school of their choice.

You miss a significant point. Most parents don't pay property taxes that come even close to being equal to the per-pupil expenditures of their school system. Some barely pay any at all, because their property isn't worth much. Their children's educations are subsidized by other taxpayers in the district who may not even have children, or whose children are grown, and by businesses which pay property taxes.

So when Mom & Pop move "their child and their dollars", they are also moving the dollars of other people in that district. Granted, the dollars would be spent on that child anyway, but the district does give the family a benefit they would not otherwise have.

You miss another significant point. It is not the parents that would not want to be able to put their children in the school of their choice. It is the politicians that will not let them.

Hyperbole. You make it sounds as if there is a law against putting your children in private schools.

In districts where vouchers are available now, do all parents move their children to private schools? In districts where vouchers are not available, do no parents send their children to private schools?

I know plenty of people who are not well off, but find the money to send their children to private schools, because it's a priority for them. I know many more who could afford to send their children to private schools but think the public schools in their area are doing a good job. Sometimes they moved to areas where they knew the public schools were doing a good job.

I really can not stand it when people come on here that are either grossly uninformed or are purposely trying to distort the issus.

Gosh, so do I.

413 posted on 06/18/2006 6:29:20 AM PDT by Amelia (Education exists to overcome ignorance, not validate it.)
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To: BJungNan

You don't know your history. A hundred years ago, most well-to-do parents sent their kids to private academics. Once the High school was invented and their quality become acceptable, more and more parents began to send their kids to public high schools rather than DAY academies. Yes, parents pay property taxes, but most of them are getting a bargin. Consequently they don't put pressure on the pols and they sit on school boards and give the school superintendents what they want.


414 posted on 06/18/2006 6:39:16 AM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: bwteim

Actually, the court houses and social-security administration are better than most of the school buildings. (But not better than the high school football stadiums.)


415 posted on 06/18/2006 6:53:24 AM PDT by Doctor Stochastic (Vegetabilisch = chaotisch ist der Charakter der Modernen. - Friedrich Schlegel)
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To: BabsC

"I suggest you invest your money in a company that pays its CEO what it pays a worker."

-- --

Any CEO (other than an owner of a new company) who would accpet that low payment level and that high of responibility is an idiot that I would not want to work with or for.


416 posted on 06/18/2006 7:03:44 AM PDT by HighWheeler (Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country. - Marion Barry)
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To: RobbyS

Yes, the superintendent here in Abilene makes about $130,000. That's way too much tax money as far as I'm concerned.


417 posted on 06/18/2006 7:15:38 AM PDT by antisocial (Texas SCV - Deo Vindice)
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To: KC Burke
Thank you! Sometimes I start feeling burned out not because of the kids, but because of the pettiness of some of my colleagues! I hope your son's co-workers aren't driving him nuts- I say this because a friend of mine recently quit his high school teaching job because of his co-workers.
418 posted on 06/18/2006 7:34:08 AM PDT by MissEdie
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To: RobbyS
You don't know your history. A hundred years ago,...

Now there is a novel approach, let's go back 100 years and apply then to today's debate. Absolutely absurd.

419 posted on 06/18/2006 7:43:53 AM PDT by BJungNan
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To: MissEdie

Can a person teach in S.C. with such poor grammar and syntax skills?


420 posted on 06/18/2006 7:52:15 AM PDT by MayflowerMadam
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To: alvindsv
I don't know what the typical teacher puts in each day, I can simply say that in my first year as a teacher I put in anywhere from 15-18 hours a day.

You are using yourself as an example in a discussion about all teachers. With your clarification that you are speaking only of yourself, then keep up the good work.

As for wanting to go up against me in court, I am still licensed to practice law, come find you a case in OK and get special permission to practice here and we will try the case, that is if you are attorney. If you are not an attorney, then you have no clue what your talking about and should simply quit talking out of your a*s.

The case that we will try is whether teachers work 15-18 hours a day. That was the case you presented and you have just conceded the case. No need to see you in court.

By the way, I am not an attorney but I have tried cases in court. I won both times. One was a private civil case and the other was a civil case against a water company. Many people represent themseles without, as you say, farting.

421 posted on 06/18/2006 7:52:38 AM PDT by BJungNan
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To: BJungNan
I see the teachers go to school every day. It is about 30 minutes ahead of the students, if that. And they are all headed out of the school very soon after the final bell.

You see all teachers go to school, or just the teachers at one particular school? You watch them every single day?

None of the teachers get there more than 30 minutes before the students? All of the teachers leave right after the final bell? Is this a bell for students or for teachers? At our school, the last bell rings 35 minutes after the students leave, to tell the teachers they may leave then if they wish. Some do, many don't.

Do you notice whether or not the teachers are carrying anything when they leave, such as papers to be graded at home? Do you know what the teachers do after they leave school?

Especially when my children were small, I left school when teachers were dismissed to be with my children, but after my children were in bed I frequently worked until midnight or later grading papers or planning.

Do you think all teachers are like the teachers in this particular school? Do you have any evidence to back up any of your contentions, or should we just take your word that you have nothing to do most days but watch the teacher parking lot at some school?

422 posted on 06/18/2006 8:18:01 AM PDT by Amelia (Education exists to overcome ignorance, not validate it.)
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To: HighWheeler
Ah yes, there's that hated word...

responsibility (I'm sure that's what you meant, spell checker is our friend)

All they see is the dollar with not one idea on how to value produce to earn it.

But when you live on tax dollars it's all play money anyway.
423 posted on 06/18/2006 8:57:36 AM PDT by BabsC
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To: 9999lakes

I think vouchers are a good idea. They would help bring down the cost of education. But I am not surprised that more people responded to your second idea, "The oil companies are not an example of the free market at work." People like to criticize the large salaries of CEO's and business executives. After all, creating class envy is easier than coming up with a cogent defense of the argument that teachers are underpaid.


424 posted on 06/18/2006 9:50:21 AM PDT by steadfastconservative
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To: steadfastconservative

Do you really think vouchers are the answer? Just my own thoughts, but it seems to me that private schools are known to be high achieving schools because of their exclusiveness-consistent small class size, well rounded similar backgrounds, and let's face it-big bucks! If you start throwing vouchers at people, what's that going to do to these private institutions? I wonder--would the private schools be able to maintain their high achievement scores/bragging rights? Wouldn't it make private education--well--public??


425 posted on 06/18/2006 10:45:51 AM PDT by WHESS
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To: MayflowerMadam
Apparently so. Guess I need to spend more time proofreading my posts.
426 posted on 06/18/2006 11:22:31 AM PDT by MissEdie
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To: raybbr
A CEO is in a closed market like teachers. If the teacers negotiate a larger salary they are impeached. If a CEO is handed a large salary everone compliments him on his windfall. There is clearly a double standard of perspective.

I disagree - the two markets are NOT similar. Teachers (generally) negotiate their salaries as a union, meaning that the benefits negotiated by the whole are applied to each member, regardless of their indicidual merit. The CEO must negotiate for himself, individually. If there were individual teachers negotiating high compensation based on superior performance, I would see the two as similar. That, in general, is not the case.

Just my $.02.

BTW - I agree that most CEOs are overpaid, but that is based on my estimate of their value to the company. I do not own their company, so therefore I get no vote on their salary. It's just the way it is.

427 posted on 06/18/2006 11:55:55 AM PDT by MortMan (Trains stop at train stations. On my desk is a workstation...)
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To: WV Mountain Mama

Oh my goodness! I can't top that one!!!


428 posted on 06/18/2006 1:45:18 PM PDT by Palladin ("Governor Lynn Swann."...it has a nice ring to it!)
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To: BJungNan

Maybe I should say you don't know your sociology. Polticians do what the people with money want they to do. Vouchers have gone nowhere because
the voters with money are not in favor ot it. High schools weere originally designed for the top ten percent of students and those students whose Families are in the top ten percent income level will live in school districts which do a good job of preparing students for college. So longer as their children do not suffer from the quality of schooling, most of these families could give a rat's a---about public schools in general. For those in the district who have no children, they know that appearance is what counts, so that if the system LOOKS good enough to keep property values up and continues to attract up and coming young familes, they also could care less. Much the same thing was true 100 years ago. Some things don't change.


429 posted on 06/18/2006 1:53:36 PM PDT by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: RobbyS

That is exactly how it works. However, I was reading my home town paper and some interesting things are happening with NCLB. Some failing schools in Ohio are now jeopardizing even more tax dollars. Seems the state of Ohio will now have to pay the tuition of students from these failing schools to enter schools of choice. This inspired the children of local private schools to enroll their students for as little as one day in a failing school so they can get their tuition paid for next year! I love loopholes!


430 posted on 06/18/2006 3:13:09 PM PDT by chalkfarmer
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To: Amelia

I did not watch every teacher at every school. Nor have you. Your contention was that they work 15-18 hours a day. I said not the ones I see. Not the ones I know.

So which is it? Are they underpaid and overworked of overpaid and underworked?


431 posted on 06/18/2006 3:53:44 PM PDT by BJungNan
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To: BJungNan
Your contention was that they work 15-18 hours a day. I said not the ones I see. Not the ones I know.

So you admit that you do not see or know "all" teachers.

Please show me where I said teachers work 15-18 hours per day. I don't recall giving specific numbers, but I do contend that (1) all teachers do not work minimum hours, as you say they do, and (2) teachers can do much of their work such as planning and grading papers at home, and many teachers do put in many hours at night and on weekends doing just that. Your informal surveillance of the teachers' parking lot would not reveal that, however.

So which is it? Are they underpaid and overworked of overpaid and underworked?

Probably both. Some teachers work much harder and some are much more effective than others, but teachers are paid by their degrees and experience, not by the quality of their work. Frequently good teachers are paid much less than poor teachers.

Pay scales depend on the state and the district. That depends on the strength of the union and the cost of living in a particular area. The same teacher doing the same job would be paid much more (and I believe work fewer hours) in California than in Arkansas, for instance. On the other hand, the cost of living is much higher in some parts of California.

It's also true that teachers in some fields, such as science and math, could probably make much more in the private sector than they do teaching and than their counterparts teaching history and English could, but while teaching they make the same amount if they have the same amount of experience and the same number of degrees.

The point is, painting ALL teachers with a broad brush based on what you claim to see, especially since you are probably not seeing the entire picture, is not right. In fact, it might even fall into the category of "grossly uninformed or purposely trying to distort the issues."

432 posted on 06/18/2006 4:50:16 PM PDT by Amelia (Education exists to overcome ignorance, not validate it.)
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To: BabsC

"...with not one idea on how to value produce to earn it."


Grammar is our friend.


433 posted on 06/18/2006 5:22:00 PM PDT by HighWheeler (Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country. - Marion Barry)
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To: moose2004

Check out this thread:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1651397/posts


434 posted on 06/18/2006 6:19:00 PM PDT by HighWheeler (Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country. - Marion Barry)
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To: wintertime

guys like you ruin the web posting- who made you the spelling police? to capitalize while writing a simple post - is to waste energy. who cares??? get a life. i bet i've earned more money spelling and writing than you and i still don't care how people write in a forum.


435 posted on 06/18/2006 6:59:29 PM PDT by q_an_a
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To: q_an_a

i bet i've earned more money spelling and writing than you and i still don't care how people write in a forum.





lkjledjweb? lkhjfdjkhdfs~!!!! pojdsf;kjhdsfjh...fihdf..ah!


436 posted on 06/18/2006 7:02:56 PM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: Amelia

I have you mixed up with someone else in this thread. They said that teachers work 15-18 hours a day. I said, not the ones that I see.


437 posted on 06/18/2006 10:43:44 PM PDT by BJungNan
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To: Amelia
The point is, painting ALL teachers with a broad brush based on what you claim to see, especially since you are probably not seeing the entire picture, is not right. In fact, it might even fall into the category of "grossly uninformed or purposely trying to distort the issues."

Again, I was responding to another person and the point they raised. The painting of all teachers with a broad brush is out of context. As far as seeing the entire picture, no one sees the entire picture. It is impossible to do so. But, I see much of it.

Teachers have a bureaucratic nightmere to deal with. They don't get support from the administration, an adminstration that is as likely to side with the student as with the teacher.

Also, teachers complain they are not paid enough when in fact they are amoung the highest paid people in society. Some teachers are so out of touch with socio-economic reality they try to justify their salaries by pointing to an oil company exec that was paid $400 million.

The school system has become a cesspool for every social cause, with every group under the sun wanting to preach to the kids on social issues. And then we have testing, that some schools approach as something that the kids must survive rather than something that must be tackled.

In short, I responded, did not first forward the debate. I can understand my coments being taken out of context since I did respond to the wrong person. But, that said, let's not take them out of context.

438 posted on 06/18/2006 10:54:02 PM PDT by BJungNan
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To: q_an_a
guys like you ruin the web posting- who made you the spelling police? to capitalize while writing a simple post - is to waste energy. who cares??? get a life. i bet i've earned more money spelling and writing than you and i still don't care how people write in a forum.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

There should be a bumper sticker:

I can not write a simple sentence or effortlessly use capitalization. Thank a government "screw-all" teacher!
439 posted on 06/19/2006 5:14:18 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid.)
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To: 9999lakes
So, do you think that if the Exxon officer weren't given the bonus, it would have been distributed to the poor?

People have choices of four career types:

1. Jobs that pay a lot of money and are fun to do. Movie stars, professional athletes, rock stars fall into this category, along with a few best-selling novelists. These jobs are very rare and require both talent and luck to get such employment.

2. Jobs which pay a fair amount of money but are hard work. These jobs include carpenters, doctors, small business, nurses, etc.

3. Jobs which don't pay as much but are personally rewarding. These jobs include teachers, clergy, counselors, artists, etc.

4. Jobs which are hard work and pay poorly. Agricultural workers, garbage collectors, chicken cleaners, meat packing, etc.

Most of us make our livings in class two or three. I told my kids the objective was to avoid having to take a job in class 4.

440 posted on 06/19/2006 5:24:57 AM PDT by Miss Marple (Lord, please look after Mozart Lover's and Jemian's sons and keep them strong.)
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To: raybbr

Because teachers and dockworkers and mechanics and autoworkers enter their chosen professions knowing full well that each has inherent salarly limitations. Yet once established, they act as though they are entitled to become millionaires at the taxpayers' expense. And for what? Producing a substandard product that would find any midlevel manager or CEO in a private organization tossed out on his/her a$$ without recourse to their goose-stepping union thugs


441 posted on 06/19/2006 5:26:43 AM PDT by wally-balls
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To: Amelia
Wow--what a great collection of circular arguments I missed this weekend by being at a softball tournament. (For those of you keeping track, my daughter's team came in second, and BabyRepub hit for the cycle :) )

From reading through the posts, we teachers are damned if we do and damned if we don't. According to some, I'm a lesser teacher because if I don't go to a top-rated university, but if I do, it's a waste of time. My masters is from University of Virginia and I graduated with a perfect 4.0. Some here may think it's a waste, but I have parents that will disagree with you. My education taught me how to teach reading and I am damn good at it.

As far as pay goes, my pay is determined by two separate groups of board members and I have little control over it, other than to move to a different county. If I chose to spend 90 minutes in the car each way, I could earn $25-30k a year more, but I don't make that choice.

And yes, I do get 10 weeks off in the summer and I like it. If someone here doesn't like the fact that they don't get that time off, be a teacher and bask in the love and admiration of your peers here.

What I especially love is the general idea that I should hold my head in shame and actually grovel to the public at large and beg for a pittance on which to live. Bull-hockey. I earn every penny I'm paid. Of course there are some bad eggs in the profession and I hold those people in contempt and loathing. We are given an important task and abusing that priviledge is a crime. (For those of you getting ready to ask that one important question on your fingers, no I'm not in a union-never have, never will be.)

As far as being overpaid, well, what would most people chose to pay teachers?

442 posted on 06/19/2006 5:30:46 AM PDT by SoftballMominVA
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To: Doctor Stochastic

Good observation!


443 posted on 06/19/2006 5:44:34 AM PDT by bwteim (bwteim = Begin With The End In Mind / Must I always use a sarcasm off tag??)
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To: wintertime

you are like most TV politicians - you never address the issues. who cares about spelling or punctuation on a forum? people with nothing better to do in life...YOU. once again I repeat the suggestion get a life.


444 posted on 06/19/2006 5:49:46 AM PDT by q_an_a
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To: BJungNan
Also, teachers complain they are not paid enough when in fact they are amoung the highest paid people in society. Some teachers are so out of touch with socio-economic reality they try to justify their salaries by pointing to an oil company exec that was paid $400 million.

There's an interesting discussion of teachers' salaries here. It's a long read, but it also points out that some teachers are "overpaid" and some are "underpaid", and tells why.

I was unable to find the report referenced in the article comparing the salaries of teachers to those of average state workers (although I found a number of references to it), but maybe someone else will have better luck than I.

445 posted on 06/19/2006 5:49:58 AM PDT by Amelia (Education exists to overcome ignorance, not validate it.)
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To: wally-balls
Producing a substandard product that would find any midlevel manager or CEO in a private organization tossed out on his/her a$$ without recourse to their goose-stepping union thugs

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It is the teacher who is producing the substandard work. Dockworkers, as far as I can tell, are getting the product on and off those ships.
446 posted on 06/19/2006 5:53:53 AM PDT by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are not stupid.)
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To: wintertime
How 'bout a competitive system? Increases in test scores, and consistently high test scores result in bonuses and raises for the teachers. Failing or decreasing test scores result in no raises or in mass terminations. Median scores are just sorta "there."
The best teachers get the option to stay with their classes - security, or to be reassigned to problem classes or schools - a chance for more bonuses and raises. Mediocre teachers get assigned to mediocre classes where they won't do any damage. Bad teachers get fired.

Oh, right. Teachers and Unions would fight to the death to prevent this. And its probably racist, sexist, bigoted, and homophobic.
447 posted on 06/19/2006 5:59:33 AM PDT by Little Ray (If you want to be a martyr, we want to martyr you.)
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To: wintertime

And it's the teacher who was the object of my tirade. My father was a longshoreman in Boston for 45 years and I know first-hand that no man or woman ever worked harder or longer hours than he.


448 posted on 06/19/2006 6:01:57 AM PDT by wally-balls
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To: MNJohnnie
"Not bad for a 9 month work year "

Don't forget all the holidays during the year. The really bad part is, we're paying these people to turn our children into godless, America-haters.
449 posted on 06/19/2006 6:04:29 AM PDT by FrankR (Don't let the bastards wear you down...)
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To: alvindsv
This is not about money. Why are the children not learning the material?

When I eat out, I never begrude the bill when the meal is excellent. I always tip my waiter generously for good service, and 15 percent for bad since I know how hard his job is. However, when the food is mediocre, I always feel let down, and rue how much I have to spend even if the meal is inexpensive.

If the kids were learning, this backlash would not exist. Why do they not learn? I've heard all kinds of excuses: Broken homes, parents on drugs, materialistic culture, spoiled kids. Let's be honest, that defines the 1980's, and test scores have worsened since then.

Is there so much cheating the kids never learn and consequently do poorly on standardized tests? Are you not allowed to insist on good performance? Are writing skills ignored? Are you forced to entertain children? Is there no ethic of excellence taught to the kids? Certainly, if no moral standard is enforced, a group of kids can quickly devolve along Lord of the Flies lines.

What is your biggest challenge in the classroom? Do you think the material you teach now is comparable to what you learned in school, better, worse? Is appropriate material taught, but the children don't make an effort? Do parents cheat for their children and do their children's homework? Do parents call the school to complain about every little thing and insist that grades get changed?

Can students read? Are they taught phonics? Do all students memorize math equations? Is elementary algebra taught to all students?

Please, does anyone have an opinion? Mastery of one's intellect is one of the greatest gifts in life. We are cheating our children by neglecting their intellectual development. We want teachers to earn their salaries, but we need teachers to solve this problem.

People, being a teacher is one hard job. I look forward to the day when teachers regain the professional respect they deserve. Can you imagine having to step foot into a classroom day after day and earn respect from a bunch of nine-year-olds, plus teach them something? I want to pay good teachers well. But I want my kid to learn. I want to trust my kid's teachers. We all do.

450 posted on 06/19/2006 6:43:55 AM PDT by biscotti
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