H-1B Pay Drags Down All Salaries

I also think the youth of America is to be blamed as well. A degree in Computer Science is just too difficult for the current "me" generation. Their self-absorbance, their need for instant gratification, and their overall laziness appall me.

I don't think it's laziness. The threat from outsourcing and H1Bs has been covered on the thread. In posts 18 and 23 I noted similar situations in accounting and potentially nursing. If I'm a college student with thoughts of earning a living, the H1B program would discourage me from IT, discourage me from nursing, and perhaps convince me to become a CPA. And in a few years employers would be complaining about the shortage of IT workers and nurses. Even higher education doesn't operate in an economic vacumn.

The clinic owner requires the new immigrant physician to pay back a cash fee of many thousands of dollars for the privilege of working for him. This reduces her salary greatly but if she alerts the US government, she is afraid that she will be deported...I don't know if the intent is to exploit immigrants but it in effect greatly reduces the salary paid to young physicians in their first few years of practics, many of whom are immigrants but all of whom make a large salary only for tax purposes and in effect must change jobs (and face the same situation again) or pay back a big percentage of the salary they are paid.

It's amazing that whenever you scratch the surface of these programs, you confront illegality. In the case of MDs I doubt the taxpayer is bearing many costs, but clearly the employee is being abused, to the benefit of the employer. Not the way we should encourage our economy to work.

For experience, I can tell you that there is a serious nursing shortage in the U.S. Nursing schools have waiting lists for students who get accepted. One of the reasons is that there is a shortage of nursing teachers. There are lots of opportunities for nurses, or for any health care provider in this country. Also, for certain types of health care workers, physical therapists I believe, are on a green card short list. These professionals are considered to be in critical short supply and don't have to go through the labor certification process - they practically get green cards right away! Also, Canada supplies a lot of nurses to the U.S. they only need a NAFTA TN visa. Those are easy to get, and unlimited in the number issued and in the number of times it can be renewed, so employment in the U.S. is easy for Canadian nurses. Heck, on the college campuses there, most of the recruiters are from U.S. hospitals.

I see your point. For some employers, the H1B lets them treat employees like commodities. I can speak about my experiences from a Canadian perspective. Lots of us work in the U.S. under the TN visa. Then, if the employer likes our work and wnats to make us officially permanent employees, we must be switched to the H1B visa. The TN visa is strictly non-immigrant, but the H1B is dual purpose. It's both immigrant and non-immigrant. Once on the H1B, then a green card application can be submitted and our status can be adjusted to permanent resident while we are still working in the U.S. under the H1B visa. It's harder to mistreat a Canadian employee because we share the same language and culture and we are as aware of U.S. employment laws as Americans do. plus, we can get another TN visa readily if we need to change employers and go throught the whole thing again. Those things scare the heck out of the Indians stuck in cubicle farms because it is so foreign to them.

If you want real H1B reform, then limit the number of employees that can be hired by a given company so they cannot become H1B dependent. Or break it down by sector or professional requirements like the different EB classes for employment based green cards.

It's important to remember that the H1B is a 6 year visa (last I checked); so take 65k or 115k and multiply it by 6 to get a rolling number of H1Bs that can be here at any given time.

Note that now, finally, the flood that was opened during the Clinton years is winding down, so the exploiters are frantic to get a new batch of cheap indentured servants.

That's the real kicker about H1B tech workers. They're brought over here at whatever wage, and then *unlike* regular employees they're basically stuck with the employer and client they've signed on with. Any change is cause to go home. So, the employer can insist on long hours, weekends, any conditions they want and the H1B has no choice but to say 'yes.'

If you or I are subjected to those demands, we ask for compensation, expect it to be reflected in our career growth, or get out. The people who hire H1Bs don't have to consider such mundane things as their employees' well-being. In my experience, where I'm able to demand overtime from a client, the H1Bs are on-site 6 days or 7 days a week, well into the evening, but lo and behold their timesheet always reads 40 hours. All those extra hours are free labor to the employer. (Fortunately, my work doing 40 real hours a week is better than their work doing 70 hours a week).

So, even where the base wage is equivalent (I've never seen it) the effective wage is FAR lower than for a U.S. worker because the H1B is indentured and has no choice but to do his master's bidding.

Thanks.

I am retired and kinda old. Worked as long as I could and actually retired a little late. Would have worked longer, part-time, but the wife got real sick and that was that.

So, now I have to tell you, I feel so bad for young American workers and the middle aged ones too who have lost their jobs...NO CAREERS... because they are not given an even chance against foreigners brought here to our soil JUST TO TAKE THEIR jobs, their livihood.

OUR government should be for OUR citizens, OUR children and OUR jobs!

The govt wants loyality from US... WHERE IS THEIRS to US?? H1-B is not a good idea at all.

Course, I am justOLD and OLD FASHIONED. SO many dismiss my opinions, ya know.

Thank you for your candor. You sound like a very reasonable person.

Good luck to you and I mean that very sincerely. With highest regards,LION.

I have two relatives who left engineering, forced to do so by lay-offs ( companies re-located to MEXICO or H1-Bs) and they went back to college and got teaching degrees or whatever it takes... they teach math or science and History now.

Now,they live in Georgia and qualified for some sort of educational assistance so that did help them egt back to college.

Now one of them has two engineering degrees and his wife was already her own business.

The other relative, a younger gal was single at the time so she moved back in with mama and papa. It worked out after a LONGER time because she had to work part-time as a temp. at an office to met expenses.

All in all, their engineering degrees were actually useless and a BIG waste of money. What a shame.

For experience, I can tell you that there is a serious nursing shortage in the U.S. Nursing schools have waiting lists for students who get accepted. One of the reasons is that there is a shortage of nursing teachers. There are lots of opportunities for nurses, or for any health care provider in this country. Also, for certain types of health care workers, physical therapists I believe, are on a green card short list. These professionals are considered to be in critical short supply and don't have to go through the labor certification process - they practically get green cards right away! Also, Canada supplies a lot of nurses to the U.S. they only need a NAFTA TN visa. Those are easy to get, and unlimited in the number issued and in the number of times it can be renewed, so employment in the U.S. is easy for Canadian nurses. Heck, on the college campuses there, most of the recruiters are from U.S. hospitals.

doc30: For experience, I can tell you that there is a serious nursing shortage in the U.S. Nursing schools have waiting lists for students who get accepted. One of the reasons is that there is a shortage of nursing teachers. There are lots of opportunities for nurses, or for any health care provider in this country.

No question of that which is why I raised it.

In the CPA/accounting example I alluded to earlier, though there has been some outsourcing, foreign workers haven’t been used to any large extent. Ironically the shortage is blamed on interest in investment banking and .com jobs during the late 90s, exacerbated by the passage of Sarbanes-Oxley in 2002. The market has been dealing with it. Per the Wall St Journal, accounting majors are at 7% of vocational majors, vs 2% in 2000. More accountants. And yes, it’s because compensation for grads has gone up. About 30% since 2003 per the WSJ. And yes, that costs the accounting firms more. This is where someone jumps in and tells me it will raise the price of tomatoes.

Nursing. The Senate attempted to deal with that problem by offering an unlimited visas to nurses until 2014. That’s a different approach, but I’d suggest one that provides no incentive for students to enter nursing, nor for heavily pressed schools to expand capacity. I’d prefer to let the market solve the problem. And if migrant labor is truly necessary, allow it for a distinct period of time only. And allow job mobility.

doc30: I see your point. For some employers, the H1B lets them treat employees like commodities…If you want real H1B reform, then limit the number of employees that can be hired by a given company so they cannot become H1B dependent. Or break it down by sector or professional requirements like the different EB classes for employment based green cards.
No.6 : That's the real kicker about H1B tech workers. They're brought over here at whatever wage, and then *unlike* regular employees they're basically stuck with the employer and client they've signed on with. Any change is cause to go home. So, the employer can insist on long hours, weekends, any conditions they want and the H1B has no choice but to say 'yes.'… my experience, where I'm able to demand overtime from a client, the H1Bs are on-site 6 days or 7 days a week, well into the evening, but lo and behold their timesheet always reads 40 hours.

IMO the system as it exists abuses employees. And abuses like the ones you describe are precisely why a migrant laborer is more attractive, cheaper, to an employer. I think the visa has to be issued contingent on a job in a particular industry, but I see no solution to the problems No.6 describes other than allowing the visa holder employment mobility. Let employers within a given industry compete for his services as they would a citizen. That would go a long way to reducing wage disparities.

As to H1B workers essentially locking workers at entry level wages, that’s a problem. Clearly some industries may move toward compensation plans less dependent on seniority.

My solution would be to offer fewer H1B visas and more visas on a naturalization track (sorry, don't recall the exact name for those) for skilled workers.

After all, what we ideally want is for skilled people to come here and stay, not come here, endure abuse, trash wages for Americans, and then bolt for home with what money they've saved and a bad opinion about America; right?

Thanks for putting flesh and bones on the issue.

I wouldn't call an engineering degree useless - it is an education, and a pretty good one in most cases. It's just that by itself it qualifies the recipient for a relatively risky and low-stakes career. It's no surprise to me that American kids are staying away from engineering in droves - if you're going to kill yourself in school, do it in a field that's going to make you some money over the long term.

I try to talk younger people out of going into engineering when I can, except in cases where the student is clearly never going to be anything but an engineer, I mean there are people who are just born engineers, so they wouldn't be happy with anything else. It's hard to convince young people that they're going to care about more than their starting salaries a few years after they've been on the job. Basically my schtick is that real success in engineering is when you get out of engineering.

The thing is, it was way too much money for them to have paid for an education to become a teacher in a middle school where the pay is not on par with what an engineer earns.

I agree with you on how you speak with American kids about degrees in engineering.

But, at least my relatives do have jobs at his point and they are apparently good teachers.... pocket protectors notwithstanding.LOL

My solution would be to offer fewer H1B visas and more visas on a naturalization track (sorry, don't recall the exact name for those) for skilled workers.

See one of my previous posts. H1B visas are dual purpose. They are both immigrant and non-immigrant visas. When I first came to the U.S. from Canada, it was on an TN visa. But to be eligeible to *apply* for permanent residence, I had to be switched to the H1B. The H1B was designed as a gateway visa to permanent residency via employment sponsorship. The visas you are refering to are the EB class for permanent residency. The hard part is that there are fewer of those than there are H1Bs and the wait is years longer to bring someone in under an EB visa. It's easier to recruit them under an H1B (even easier for a TN), then adjust status while already working in the U.S. from H1B to EB. It's so long that there are people who need 7th and 8th year extensions on their H1Bs (a 6 year max visa) to get an EB visa.

Thank you. I just think it's good info for people on FR to hear what the immigraiton experience is like from someone enduring the gauntlet.