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Austrian Writer Peter Handke: Send my award to the Serbs
ERPKIM ^ | June 23, 2006 | By D. Sekulic

Posted on 06/26/2006 11:04:21 AM PDT by Bokababe

Peter Handke has once again shocked the German public but this time in such a way that not even the most extreme do not dare criticize him for it. He has given up the alternative Heinrich Heine award that the actors and intellectuals of Berlin wished to bestow upon him in favor of the Serbs of Kosovo, who live "surrounded by barbed wire and tanks".

www.novosti.co.yu Vecernje Novosti daily, Belgrade

June 24, 2006 By D. Sekulic, June 23, 2006

Peter Handke has once again shocked the German public but this time in such a way that not even the most extreme do not dare criticize him for it. He has given up the alternative Heinrich Heine award that the actors and intellectuals of Berlin wished to bestow upon him in favor of the Serbs of Kosovo, who live "surrounded by barbed wire and tanks".

The Berlin Ensemble, headed by the also frequently controversial Klaus Peymann, the famous former head of the Vienna Burgtheater, recently organized donations with the help of numerous actors to award Handke an alternative Heinrich Heine award in the amount of 50,000 euros. The highly prestigious German language award was awarded to Peter Handke by an expert jury in Dusseldorf but the city council refused to accept its decision, stating quite literally that the award could not go to a writer who is of pro-Serb orientation!

The case provoked spirited discussion and many concluded that it represented an instance of brutal political censure of literature. Local politicians are judging one of the greatest living writers in the German language, warned eminent intellectuals, among them some, like Nobel laureate Gunther Grass who at one time advocated the bombing of Serbia.

At the same time Handke informed Peymann and his friends that he is renouncing the alternative award as well because, as he had previously stated, he did not wish his work to be the subject of meddling by local politicians. The money that they collect should be sent to the Serb enclaves in Kosovo and Metohija to people who are living under impossible conditions thanks to the supporters of "freedom" imposed upon them by NATO bombs.

Grass dismisses jury

In Dusseldorf it has now been openly admitted that the decision really was of a political nature and that the Heinrich Heine award allegedly has a clearly political character. In response to this, Grass, who is highly influential, has sent a request that in the future the city council be stripped of the right to approve or reject the decision of the expert jury.

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Related article:

Disputed Author Handke Awarded German Literary Prize

DEUTSCE WELLE 25.05.2006

Großansict des Bildes mit der Bildunterscrift: Austrian writer Peter Handke is controversial because of his stance on Serbia

Controversial Austrian playwright and novelist Peter Handke was awarded the city of Düseldorf's Heine Prize for literature.

The Heine Prize, endowed for 50,000 euros ($64,000), is one of the three highest-paying literature prizes in Germany. The jury said Handke -- like Heinric Heine, the German poet after whom the prize is named -- obstinately follows the way to an "open truth." He puts forth his own poetic world view, in contrast to broader public opinion, they said. The prize will be awared on Dec. 13.

Handke wrote the groundbreaking experimental play "Offending the Audience" and the novel "The Goalie's Anxiety at the Penalty Kick", but may be best know for writing the novel "Wings of Desire", whic was turned into a film by Wim Wenders.

Pro-Serbian stance

He is controversial because of his pro-Serbian stance during the Balkan wars, and his support for the Serbian regime.

Recently, Frenc national theatre Comédie-Française removed the play "Voyage to the Sonorous Land or the Art of Asking" from its 2007 season lineup, after Handke spoke at the burial of former Serbian dictator Slobodan Milosevic in Marc.

Handke, who lives in France, said in an esay in the Frenc newspaper Libération: "Let's stop laying the masacre . on the backs of the Serbian military and paramilitary. And listen -- at last -- to the survivors of the Muslim masacres in numerous Serbian villages around Srebrenica."

'Glad' aceptance

Last year, Handke's publisher, Suhrkamp Verlag, said the author would categorically refuse any more literature prizes; in Paris, however, Handke said he would "gladly" acept the Heine Prize.

Up to now, winners of the Heine Prize have included Walter Jens, Günter Kunert, Max Frisc, Wolf Biermann, Hans Magnus Enzensberger, Elfriede Jelinek und Robert Gernhardt.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; Philosophy; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: albania; allybetrayed; austria; balkans; christianity; clintonlegacy; darkotheustashi; germany; ihoppy; islamofascists; jihad; kosovo; pancakeboy; serb; sorosfluffers; toothlessdhimmi; wrongplace; wrongside; wrongtime; wrongwar
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To: wideawake
The VRS initiated the evac proposal, the UN told the mujas it. Oric was gone along with his key henchmen, so the stage was set for the VRS to regain control of Serbian territory, meaning Srebrenica.

The mujas manipulated the media and got them hyped, notably Christiana "Minnie Mouse saves Sarajevo" Amanpour (Iranian born/practicing Islamist).

It was all about media manipulation, camera shot angles and soundbytes to get the story they were looking for.

Hey, I'm doing my Serbian Cycling Challenge late summer 2007. Care to meet for tea in Bratunac where I'll be staying overnight? We can go through town and you can talk to the locals and you can rehash your views/opinions to them. Maybe they will tell you something differant, maybe not. One way to find out, right? Let me know, I will even cover the cost of your transporation and lodging in the RS and Serbia. Deal?

101 posted on 06/27/2006 11:28:22 AM PDT by ma bell ("Take me to the Brig. I want to see the "real Marines". Major General Chesty Puller, USMC)
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To: Bokababe

Actually, we're all Milosevic loving socialists. Tonite I'm going out to get a big tattoo of Milosevic on my cheast. You should get one on the small of your back. That would be very sexy :-)


102 posted on 06/27/2006 11:28:47 AM PDT by getoffmylawn (Greg Dulli for President)
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To: wideawake
oh, by the way..no worries while in Bratunac...

SuperSerb will protect you. You are safe amongst Serbs as a whole. The same can be said of the bosnian muslms and croatians. But....


103 posted on 06/27/2006 11:33:36 AM PDT by ma bell ("Take me to the Brig. I want to see the "real Marines". Major General Chesty Puller, USMC)
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To: ma bell

There's no way in hell he's gonna meet you unless you change the color of your cape :-)


104 posted on 06/27/2006 11:35:07 AM PDT by getoffmylawn (Greg Dulli for President)
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To: ma bell
You are also aware that the muslims also crossed the Drina River to enter Serbia, don't you?

That would be Serbia in Yugoslavia and not the Serb Republic, yes.

You speak later in your post of politics - the political concerns of the time, as I'm sure you're aware, were that Milosevic and Yugoslavia would outwardly keep themselves at arm's length from the activities of Karadzic and the Serbian Republic.

Killing Muslim refugees who fled to Yugoslavia would be an extremely problematic undertaking for Yugoslavia and the Muslims knew it.

You are defending the mujas as your proof shows it.

Was that supposed to be English?

Izetbegovic and Oric ordered his his men to stay as they knew the circumstances.

That makes sense - Oric and Izetbegovic could have cared less how many of their own people died. They're both criminals and murderers as has been proven beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Cross line forays and entering Serbian villages with the purpose of killing, only will bring vengeance brought back onto the perps.

Oric's slaughter of prisoners at Bratunac and elsewhere is well-known.

Alas too, they did also make a raid across the Drina into Serbian Proper, an international incident that should have brought a military response from the Serbian Army but restraint was shown.

Again, as you say, politics. The Yugoslav response was carried out by their proxy army, the army of the Serbian Republic.

You lost me and probably others when you mention the 'Serbs will say anything'.

Probably because I never said that. I did say that the Serb Army - the army of the Serbian Republic, not the Yugoslav Army - would say anything for propaganda purposes. In other words, Ratko Mladic is also good at playing politics.

You have become a hopeless cause that upon completion of your college freshman year and reach the age of twenty, maybe you will begin seeing how the world of politics actually functions.

Uh-huh.

Anyway, you never told us whether you were in Srebrenica or the surrounding area during July 6-22, 1995? Were you?

105 posted on 06/27/2006 11:35:08 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: getoffmylawn
"Tonite I'm going out to get a big tattoo of Milosevic on my cheast. You should get one on the small of your back. That would be very sexy" :-)

It could piss off my Serb friends when I wear a bathing suit -- especially the one who wore a "Fxxk Communism" tee shirt on a visit to Yugoslavia 25 years ago and got thrown out of the country!

106 posted on 06/27/2006 11:36:04 AM PDT by Bokababe (www.savekosovo.org)
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To: ma bell
The VRS initiated the evac proposal, the UN told the mujas it.

Again, it makes sense. Were I Mladic, I would want to save my army needless casualties and supplies by telling the UN we would wait for them to evacuate before taking the town.

If they didn't take the deal, i'd be no worse off than when I started and if they did take the deal I'd gain a prize piece of territory without losing any soldiers or materiel.

Oric was gone along with his key henchmen, so the stage was set for the VRS to regain control of Serbian territory, meaning Srebrenica.

I thought Oric had been gone for more than a month ahead of the battle because he knew he would be executed if captured for the murder of Zekic.

The mujas manipulated the media and got them hyped, notably Christiana "Minnie Mouse saves Sarajevo" Amanpour (Iranian born/practicing Islamist).

No argument here.

It was all about media manipulation, camera shot angles and soundbytes to get the story they were looking for.

There were also a few thousand corpses as well.

Hey, I'm doing my Serbian Cycling Challenge late summer 2007. Care to meet for tea in Bratunac where I'll be staying overnight? We can go through town and you can talk to the locals and you can rehash your views/opinions to them. Maybe they will tell you something differant, maybe not.

We can be pretty certain what they'd say, just as we can be pretty certain what they'd say in Zenica.

107 posted on 06/27/2006 11:49:26 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake; BigAlPro
When you are surrounded on all sides by Serbian territory, making it impossible to resupply, and the UN says "we will help you evacuate, but we will not help you fight", you evacuate.

Well-armed Muslims greatly outnumbered the Dutch. And, in fact, the only Dutch personnel killed, was attacked by a Muslim soldier as he was withdrawing.

The Muslims had ample supply of arms and ammunition - and had this even much earlier in the war, as Alan Helvig, who received official UN reports, said. For instance, the UN ordered the report of the Muslims shelling Serb positions for three full hours not be released. The Serb counterattack however was much hyped, with the media claiming it was an unprovoked attack. No one low on ammunition shells constantly for three full hours with apparently no military objective but to get a counterattack for PR "bad Serb" purposes.

U.N. just doesn't learn

Who am I to judge? I served in the former Republic of Yugoslavia during the early 1990s. I worked under the authority of the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees' Belgrade office. Among other things, I was directly involved in the evacuations of Muslim refugees from Srebrenica to Tuzla in April 1993.

One night, Bosnian Serbs had shelled the Muslim enclave, injuring a number of women and children, who were subsequently airlifted and trucked to hospitals. You may recall the scene on CNN, where a young boy was lying in the back of a truck, covered in blood and screaming for his mama. The CNN reporter claimed that these people were victims of an unprovoked attack launched by the Serbs.

The truth of the matter is that the shelling was a counterattack against the Muslim forces in Srebrenica, who had just finished shelling nearby Serb positions. The Muslim assault had lasted for approximately three hours and ended moments before the counterattack began. How do I know this? I read the message from the U.N. Communications Team in Srebrenica to the U.N. Mission in Belgrade. The U.N. however, saw to it that the correct information was never released to the media. Why? Because the truth did not suit its political agenda.

Alan Helvig’s Conservative Blog

108 posted on 06/27/2006 11:54:52 AM PDT by joan
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To: wideawake
"There were also a few thousand corpses as well."

No there were not. They only found a few hundred dead in Srebrenica (probably deaths due to infighting among the Muslims, Serbs they'd beaten to death in their prison, etc.) which is why they made up their stories about the Serbs hiding the bodies by digging them all up and burying them dozens of miles away: they couldn't find the thousands of bodies in Srebrenica.

They search for graves far outside the city of Srebrenica, and including Serb villages where Naser Oric's men murdered Serbs. They don't allow Serbs access to identifying the bodies they keep in the morgue, unidentified after 10 years. I also think they are finding WWI and WWII dead - because in the general area the Austrians, Germans, Ustasha, and local Muslims massacred Serbs.

109 posted on 06/27/2006 12:00:15 PM PDT by joan
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To: joan
Well-armed Muslims greatly outnumbered the Dutch

That isn't the point. The point is that those Muslims could not have held out indefinitely in a Srebrenica surrounded by even more well-armed Serb Republic forces.

The Serb counterattack however was much hyped, with the media claiming it was an unprovoked attack.

Of course the attack on Srebrenica was provoked - if not by the bombardment, it was provoked by the presence in Srebrenica of Muslim soldiers who had been raiding and looting the local Serb towns, killing civilians there, etc.

The question is what happened to the prisoners afterwards. Executing POWs en masse is a crime, attacking an enemy force is not.

110 posted on 06/27/2006 12:01:26 PM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake

In Bosnia and Kosovo, Serbs have been on the front line in the war on terror. What hit us on 9/11, hit them ten years before. And everyone was spending so much time whining about the "poor Bosnian Muslims", they failed to notice what was really happening on the ground. Or in Rwanda, or the Sudan, where real genocides were taking place

If you can support or defend this, wide, then there is no hope for you!

http://www.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,91134-bosnia_p3705,00.html

http://www.serbianna.com/press/011.shtml

http://www.abrahamic-faith.com/Islam%20exposed/Bosnia-beheading.html


111 posted on 06/27/2006 12:19:37 PM PDT by Bokababe (www.savekosovo.org)
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To: A. Pole; wideawake

Sometimes even leftists can say and do the right thing. There are a few honest ones around. They may be mistaken on some basic issues, but they are honestly mistaken, and they can come out with some good sound judgments on occasion.

On this issue, Handke is right and Grasse is wrong. Plain and simple.


112 posted on 06/27/2006 1:28:53 PM PDT by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: wideawake

Are you so obtuse as to think that anyone who supports the Serbs or opposed the Muslim theft of Kosovo supported Milosevic?

That's usualy the position of the Clintonistas and the Soros-fluffers.


113 posted on 06/27/2006 2:45:45 PM PDT by FormerLib ("...the past ten years in Kosovo will be replayed here in what some call Aztlan.")
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To: Bokababe

Exactly what is it going to take for the world to care about the people of the former Republic of Yugoslavia? Since the early 90's, the U.N. has managed to destroy a beautiful corner of the world. If you want a model of how not to break up a nation by allowing former republics to reestablish themselves, simply turn to the past 15 years of Balkan history. I have been to Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia and Bosnia. I have witnessed the deception of the U.N. firsthand. I have seen the horrors of Srebrenica. I have toured the ruins of Vukovar. I have heard the cries of desperate women and children. I have mourned for the families of the victims on all sides of this tragedy.
Taking sides was a huge mistake, which has yet to be corrected. The U.S. was not smart enough to stay out of this U.N. disaster. What remains a mystery is why the world leaders have not cleaned up their mess in the Balkans. When is the U.N. going to be held accountable for their part in this heartbreaking disaster?


114 posted on 06/27/2006 8:10:10 PM PDT by BigAlPro
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To: wideawake

Oric didn't want to hand over Srebrenica, he was a classic local thug, the kind who thrive in all civil wars. He ruled with an iron fist, had zero strategic vision and was hated and feared by the civilian musilms in the enclave, their leaders were gunned down by Oric's assassination squads.

He only agreed to hand over Srebrenica after he was paid a huge amount of gold by the Bosnian Govt. This is not a secret, the Bosnian Muslim newspapers have been full of reports of this and at Izetbegovich's funeral Oric talked about it.

The Dutch army witnesses admitted that they woke up on the morning of the 11th and found that the 28th division soldiers had vanished in the night. They'd been occupying the frontlines with the Dutch OPs. This speaks of a highly organised decision by the 28th division to let Srebrenica fall.

It's good to see you accept that the 28th division was raiding the Serb villages and killing all they found, largely women, kids and the elderly. The Dutch report had to admit that the 28th never thought that taking prisoners on these raids was even an option.

Yes, there were executions after the fall of Srebrenica.

In the 100's. The low 100's at that.

However, don't forget that the Bosnian Serbs allowed between 1,500 to 3,000 men of fighting age through to Tuzla on the buses that evacuated the women, elderly and kids.

Those executed were reprisals by locals for the slaughter that the 28th carried out over the previous few years.

It was revenge for revenge for revenge for......

True for any civil war.

The rest of the missing?

Well, that 8,000 figure was arrived at by shoddy research by Brunborg. It was torn to shreds by the defence expert witness.

And don't forget that the individual battles that raged along the columns route from Susnjari / Jaglici to Baljkovica / Nezuk accounted ( if you total them up using ABiH figures ) for many 1,000s.

So that's it.

It was a vicious area of a nasty civil war. However, no worse than, say, Mostar, or any more evil than the Lebanese civil war.

Read some books on civil wars over last few decades and the sad aspect is that the Bosnian civil war was small potatoes compared to some of the killing fields in the 3rd world.


115 posted on 06/27/2006 8:29:08 PM PDT by infidel_and_proud
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To: wideawake

You are a shameless propagandist, devoid of truth.


116 posted on 06/27/2006 8:36:30 PM PDT by ValerieUSA
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To: wideawake

The boogeyman was and is Clinton -- he is a liar and you repeat his lame lies of years gone by.


117 posted on 06/27/2006 8:40:42 PM PDT by ValerieUSA
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To: wideawake
Sleeper,

We get the idea that you don't much care for Milosevich.

Perhaps you can give us your assesment of his fellow Communists... Tudjman and Izbegovich.

Why not throw in your opinion of the Croat  Bosnian   foreigner Ceku.

118 posted on 06/27/2006 9:02:29 PM PDT by F-117A (They say there is no such thing as an ex-Marine,.Murtha disproves that!!!)
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To: infidel_and_proud
Great post.

The only thing I would quibble about is your numbers of executed by Serb forces when they they took Srebrenica. My sources put the number at around 600. Not a huge difference.

Oops. Some of them were either in the wrong place at the wrong time or they had it comin'. Either way, I ain't cryin' over 'em. God knows the world wasn't cryin' over the Serb women and children slaughtered around Srebrenica while Oric was swinging the baton. Apathy can be a little contagious in a war zone.

119 posted on 06/28/2006 12:35:47 AM PDT by getoffmylawn (Greg Dulli for President)
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To: A. Pole

"Fortunately Mexicans are Catholics. They will not destroy the churches, they will build them."

Yeah, and that's why Cardinal Mahoney in CA wants all the illegal immigrants let into the U.S. To fill his church pews.


120 posted on 06/28/2006 1:04:05 AM PDT by flaglady47
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To: ValerieUSA
You are a shameless propagandist, devoid of truth.

You are an inexpensive prostitute.

How's that?

121 posted on 06/28/2006 5:34:03 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: F-117A
Perhaps you can give us your assesment of his fellow Communists... Tudjman and Izbegovich.

Tudjman was worse than a Communist - basically he was a neo-Nazi.

Itzbetgovic is an Islamist terrorist, of course, sort of an Osama-lite.

Ceku is not a foreigner - he was born and raised in Ksovo and he is an hardcore Islamist terrorist and a war criminal.

Again, the fact that these are all scum does not make Milosevic, Karadzic and Mladic not scum.

122 posted on 06/28/2006 5:41:21 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: infidel_and_proud
This speaks of a highly organised decision by the 28th division to let Srebrenica fall.

I don't disagree with this conclusion. Oric had personally abandoned the city as early as two months before, according to some accounts.

It's good to see you accept that the 28th division was raiding the Serb villages and killing all they found, largely women, kids and the elderly.

It's an undeniable fact which he will not be able to wiggle out of in his trial.

Well, that 8,000 figure was arrived at by shoddy research by Brunborg.

I never asserted the 8,000 number because I don't think it's correct. That's the Bosnian propaganda number, the Serbian propaganda number is a few hundred and the real number is likely in between.

Let's return to the subject of the thread.

The point that I wished to make from the beginning is not that the Serbs living in Bosnia and Kosov did not have legitimate grievances with their Croat and Muslim neighbors. Nor was it that the Serbs had no right to take up arms in self-defense - the Serbs have a right to go to war like any other people. They and the Croats and the Muslims have no right to commit war crimes, however.

My issue is with people praising the anti-American Communist Peter Handke for his apparent support of Serbia, because his apparent support of Serbia is really predicated on his personal admiration for Milosevic as an unreconstructed Marxist leader.

Peter Handke motives are political and not humanitarian.

123 posted on 06/28/2006 5:55:17 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake; ninenot; sittnick; steve50; Hegemony Cricket; Willie Green; Wolfie; ex-snook; FITZ; ...
Ceku is not a foreigner - he was born and raised in Ksovo and he is an hardcore Islamist terrorist and a war criminal.

And yet Agim Ceku was a general in the NATO/Croatian massacre of Krajina(pron Krayina) Serbs in 1995 (which was the main and greatest crime committed in the breakout of Yugoslavia) .

Among other nasty acts, he led shelling of fleeing columns of refugees.

By all means, if you want really to be WIDE AWAKE (you will not get much sleep anymore) read To Kill A Nation.

"You take the blue pill and the story ends. You wake in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill and you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes."

If you allergic to the red color and it bothers that Parenti is a Socialist take the first pill.

124 posted on 06/28/2006 6:42:53 AM PDT by A. Pole (Lord Palmerston: "Nations have no permanent enemies or allies only permanent interests")
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To: A. Pole
I'm fully aware of who Ceku is and why he should be prosecuted for war crimes.

I don't need to read a book by a Marxist lunatic to learn about Ceku or the atrocities he personally committed.

125 posted on 06/28/2006 7:13:01 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake
I'm fully aware of who Ceku is and why he should be prosecuted for war crimes.

So are you aware of the massacre and destruction of Serbian Krajina in 1995 by Croatian/NATO forces? Krajina is the only land which was completely destroyed and where native population is not there anymore. Ceku was a general in the normal chain of command over there.

I don't need to read a book by a Marxist lunatic to learn about Ceku or the atrocities he personally committed.

Sorry, the wake up pill is coated with the red color. Have blue.

126 posted on 06/28/2006 7:25:31 AM PDT by A. Pole (Lord Palmerston: "Nations have no permanent enemies or allies only permanent interests")
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To: A. Pole
So are you aware of the massacre and destruction of Serbian Krajina in 1995 by Croatian/NATO forces?

Everyone who paid attention to what was going on in the Balkans knows what the Croatian army did in Krajina.

Perhaps you believe that Parenti discovered these incidents and that nobody knew about them before. You are mistaken.

Keep your drugs and your Marxists. I don't need them.

127 posted on 06/28/2006 7:38:57 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake
Everyone who paid attention to what was going on in the Balkans knows what the Croatian army did in Krajina.

It was not just Croatian operation, it was NATO and Croatia.

Keep your drugs and your Marxists. I don't need them.

Enjoy your steak.

"You know, I know this steak doesn't exist. I know that when I put it in my mouth, the Matrix is telling my brain that it is juicy and delicious."

128 posted on 06/28/2006 7:51:22 AM PDT by A. Pole (Lord Palmerston: "Nations have no permanent enemies or allies only permanent interests")
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To: A. Pole
It was not just Croatian operation, it was NATO and Croatia.

NATO did not participate on the ground. NATO did eliminate two VSK missile sites that were targeting USAF assets.

But your attempt to fraudulently implicate American servicemen in atrocities that were committed solely by Croatian army regulars and paramilitaries is duly noted.

Enjoy your steak.

Again, we are not discussing movies, or your crush on Keanu Reeves or Michael Parenti's Marxist fantasy world.

We are discussing real historical events in which actual people were killed.

129 posted on 06/28/2006 8:02:55 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake
NATO did not participate on the ground.

No, NATO was boming from the air (killing from the distance does not count), provided training, supplies and satelite information, diplomatic and propaganda support. The dirty work on the ground was done by Croatians and Muslims like Ceku.

The whole land and regional community got extirpated. The next one being finished are Serbs in Kosovo.

We are discussing real historical events in which actual people were killed.

Yes, but we live in two different realities. One of us lives in one created by the mass media.

130 posted on 06/28/2006 8:12:55 AM PDT by A. Pole (Solzhenitsyn:"Live Not By Lies" www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/solzhenitsyn/livenotbylies.html)
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To: A. Pole
No, NATO was boming from the air (killing from the distance does not count

Wrong. NATO didn't bomb any targets other than missile sites which had targeted USAF facilities.

provided training,

NATO did not train the Croat army. Individual Croatian army officers had participated in joint training exercises with NATO personnel well before the Krajina campaign but NATO personnel were not training them with an eye to invading Krajina but to creating ties between Croatia and NATO to encourage Croatia to join NATO. The training exercises these individuals participated in were also attended by individual officers from various nations' armies.

supplies

Croatia purchased their own supplies on the open market.

and satelite information,

That's your claim. Croatia had access to commercial satellite reconnaissance through its membership in EUMETSAT.

diplomatic and propaganda support

Wrong again. Which NATO diplomats represnted Croatia? How many press releases and press events did NATO conduct to support Croatia's claims? The answer would be none and none.

One of us lives in one created by the mass media.

The mass media's take is that the poor Muslims in the Balkans were pure and innocent victims of inexplicable Serbian aggression.

The Milosevic-fellating take is that the poor Serbs were pure and innocent victims of inexplicable Croatian and Muslim and American and British aggression.

Those of us in the real world recognize that both sides had grievances and both sides committed atrocities and that no one in the Balkans' hands are clean.

131 posted on 06/28/2006 8:34:15 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake; wonders
Wrong. NATO didn't bomb any targets other than missile sites which had targeted USAF facilities.

NATO planes were also jamming Serbian radar to enable Croat planes to bomb fleeing civilians. Did you know that German street cleaning equipment was used to clean up the "road pizza" mess of Serbs and their vehicles smashed and slaughtered on the way out? An American UN official who was on the ground (and a freeper too) witnessed that.

NATO did not train the Croat army.

The training was done by the U.S. MPRI which was "retired" U.S. officers - many who "retired" temporarily to train the Croats and then official rejoined after that. It was only a formality.

132 posted on 06/28/2006 9:00:53 AM PDT by joan
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To: wideawake
"Those of us in the real world recognize that both sides had grievances and both sides committed atrocities and that no one in the Balkans' hands are clean."

The U.S. supported the old troublemakers (those with a history of spreading hate who had been jailed during Yugoslavia's existance - long before Milosevic came to power.)

Even though a more moderate Muslim, Fikret Abdic, garnered more votes in Bosnia, he was somehow swept asside and it was maneuvered to have Izetbegovic becoming the leader. And the unquestioned acceptance and praise for him by the west shows that he was who they wanted.

The west chose a recipe for breakup and purposely. The whining about atrocities against specific groups was only to further their agenda.

133 posted on 06/28/2006 9:05:33 AM PDT by joan
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To: wideawake; Kolokotronis; kosta50; Teˇfilo; x5452; Dionysiusdecordealcis; siunevada; kronos77; ...
The mass media's take is that the poor Muslims in the Balkans were pure and innocent victims of inexplicable Serbian aggression.

The Milosevic-fellating take is that the poor Serbs were pure and innocent victims of inexplicable Croatian and Muslim and American and British aggression.

Milosevic is Red Herring here. Of course it is not possible in a prolonged civil war for any side to remain innocent. The fact is that Western mass media took side of "good" Muslims and Croatians against the "evil" Serbs. This provided propaganda cover for the two main crimes of this civil war - the accomplished extirpation of Krajina and the ongoing extirpation of Serbs in Kosovo.

The absurdity of anti-Serbian propaganda is well illustrated by a movie - The Sum of All Fears where it is Serbs who are the nuclear terrorists.

The vilification of Serbs is uncannily similar to the vilification of Jews by the Nazis. Even the caricatures of Serbs often resembled the pictures from Der Sturmer.

Human nature does not change, it is not PC anymore to hate Jews, so the Serbs satisfy the need to have the demonized group.

I am still hoping that some day you decide to take the red pill and read the book :)

134 posted on 06/28/2006 9:11:38 AM PDT by A. Pole (Solzhenitsyn:"Live Not By Lies" www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/solzhenitsyn/livenotbylies.html)
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To: wideawake
He supported Serbia because he saw Serbia as the last remaining outpost of the Communism he favors, not because of any humanitarian concerns.

*** DING DING DING *** No more calls; we have a winner!

135 posted on 06/28/2006 9:17:37 AM PDT by steve-b (Hoover Dam is every bit as "natural" as a beaver dam.)
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To: Hoplite
It's the "Milosevic was the good guy" Twilight Zone episode.


136 posted on 06/28/2006 9:21:39 AM PDT by steve-b (Hoover Dam is every bit as "natural" as a beaver dam.)
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To: wideawake
It's wrong to bomb military targets on Easter!

I note that this argument is advanced by the same people who (correctly) ridicule the notion that we should refrain from fighting an Islamic enemy during Ramadan.

137 posted on 06/28/2006 9:26:49 AM PDT by steve-b (Hoover Dam is every bit as "natural" as a beaver dam.)
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To: wideawake
"He supported Serbia because he saw Serbia as the last remaining outpost of the Communism he favors, not because of any humanitarian concerns."

You are wrong because Milosevic is dead and he is still concerned and compassionate towards the beleaguered Kosovo Serbs.

138 posted on 06/28/2006 9:28:03 AM PDT by joan
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To: steve-b; wideawake
[wideawake:] He supported Serbia because he saw Serbia as the last remaining outpost of the Communism he favors, not because of any humanitarian concerns.

[steve-b:]*** DING DING DING *** No more calls; we have a winner!

Possible. But his personal or ideological motivation does not make what he says less or more true. You might see Serbia "as the last remaining outpost of the Communism" too and it might make you side with Muslims and Croats, still it does not make you right or wrong.

139 posted on 06/28/2006 9:28:21 AM PDT by A. Pole (Solzhenitsyn:"Live Not By Lies" www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/solzhenitsyn/livenotbylies.html)
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To: steve-b

They bombed civilians and places where there was no military target nearby - and they did the bombing for the Muslim terrorist mafia thieves - the Albanians/KLA.


140 posted on 06/28/2006 9:29:24 AM PDT by joan
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To: wideawake
You have been slammed real GOOD on this thread... WHAT A JOY TO BEHOLD.

Now, Tuck your little tail between your legs and run like a mussie coward ALWAYS does!

141 posted on 06/28/2006 9:29:32 AM PDT by Lion in Winter (islamics arn't religious, just set on on mass murder of non-muslims! NO FAT ISLAMIC broads!!)
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To: steve-b
I note that this argument is advanced by the same people who (correctly) ridicule the notion that we should refrain from fighting an Islamic enemy during Ramadan.

The fact is that Ramadan was taken into account, while Serbian Easter was not. What does it tell you?

142 posted on 06/28/2006 9:29:32 AM PDT by A. Pole (Solzhenitsyn:"Live Not By Lies" www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/arch/solzhenitsyn/livenotbylies.html)
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To: A. Pole
Or Western Easter either. I remember that the Pope asked NATO not to bomb on either one. NATO did anyway.

Like an infamous, infamous dicator once said... "how many divisions does the Pope have??"

Meaning, WHAT IS THAT POPE GOING TO DO TO STOP US....

NATO apparently felt the same way!

143 posted on 06/28/2006 9:40:19 AM PDT by Lion in Winter (islamics arn't religious, just set on on mass murder of non-muslims! NO FAT ISLAMIC broads!!)
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To: steve-b
He supported Serbia because he saw Serbia as the last remaining outpost of the Communism he favors, not because of any humanitarian concerns. *** DING DING DING *** No more calls; we have a winner!

And you have won $5000 from Pavlov Psy-ops Wartime Propaganda machine!!!!!

Tomorrow's question: "Give us the single best reason why we should invade Cyprus and give it to our NATO ally Turkey!"

(Ding-ding-ding) Do I hear salivating yet?

144 posted on 06/28/2006 9:48:59 AM PDT by Bokababe (www.savekosovo.org)
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To: joan
NATO planes were also jamming Serbian radar to enable Croat planes to bomb fleeing civilians.

While your claim is completely without basis, I'll point out that you are accusing US servicemen of participating in a war crime.

Worse than a liar, that makes you a traitor.

Did you know that German street cleaning equipment was used to clean up the "road pizza" mess of Serbs and their vehicles smashed and slaughtered on the way out?

German collusion with Croatia is well-established.

The training was done by the U.S. MPRI which was "retired" U.S. officers - many who "retired" temporarily to train the Croats and then official rejoined after that. It was only a formality.

US line officers do not retire temporarily.

But thanks for slandering the USA again.

145 posted on 06/28/2006 10:00:05 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: joan
The west chose a recipe for breakup and purposely.

Ah, yes - the monolithic, evil west. Quite the conspiracy theorist.

Abdic was the Serbian candidate in Bosnia, and he was not "swept aside", he withdrew in order to organize a unit that fought alongside the VRS.

He's currently serving time for the war crimes he committed while leading that unit against Izetbegovic's forces.

I'm not sure what kind of "moderate" executes 121 civilians.

146 posted on 06/28/2006 10:06:09 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: A. Pole
Milosevic is Red Herring here.

Not at all. The thread is about an individual who supported Milosevic, met with him and was an honored speaker at his funeral.

Of course it is not possible in a prolonged civil war for any side to remain innocent.

Of course. That's obvious.

This provided propaganda cover for the two main crimes of this civil war

Yes, the media did spin against the Serbs. That's a far cry from establishing that NATO controls the media and instructed them to do so.

147 posted on 06/28/2006 10:09:57 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: joan
You are wrong because Milosevic is dead and he is still concerned and compassionate towards the beleaguered Kosovo Serbs.

Incorrect. He committed to a position and he is now holding it to the bitter end. I point out again that he was a dedicated Stalinist and joined a Stalinist political party after Stalin was dead and after Khruschev declared deStalinization. Handke is a deadender.

148 posted on 06/28/2006 10:11:57 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake
"Abdic was the Serbian candidate in Bosnia"

Abdic is a Bosnian Muslim - both his first and last names are common Bosniak names. He wasn't Serb nor from Serbia.

149 posted on 06/28/2006 10:13:30 AM PDT by joan
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To: wideawake
I'm not sure what kind of "moderate" executes 121 civilians.

The kind of "civilians" who were doing things like planting explosives and throwing grenades most likely.

150 posted on 06/28/2006 10:15:12 AM PDT by joan
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