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Austrian Writer Peter Handke: Send my award to the Serbs
ERPKIM ^ | June 23, 2006 | By D. Sekulic

Posted on 06/26/2006 11:04:21 AM PDT by Bokababe

Peter Handke has once again shocked the German public but this time in such a way that not even the most extreme do not dare criticize him for it. He has given up the alternative Heinrich Heine award that the actors and intellectuals of Berlin wished to bestow upon him in favor of the Serbs of Kosovo, who live "surrounded by barbed wire and tanks".

www.novosti.co.yu Vecernje Novosti daily, Belgrade

June 24, 2006 By D. Sekulic, June 23, 2006

Peter Handke has once again shocked the German public but this time in such a way that not even the most extreme do not dare criticize him for it. He has given up the alternative Heinrich Heine award that the actors and intellectuals of Berlin wished to bestow upon him in favor of the Serbs of Kosovo, who live "surrounded by barbed wire and tanks".

The Berlin Ensemble, headed by the also frequently controversial Klaus Peymann, the famous former head of the Vienna Burgtheater, recently organized donations with the help of numerous actors to award Handke an alternative Heinrich Heine award in the amount of 50,000 euros. The highly prestigious German language award was awarded to Peter Handke by an expert jury in Dusseldorf but the city council refused to accept its decision, stating quite literally that the award could not go to a writer who is of pro-Serb orientation!

The case provoked spirited discussion and many concluded that it represented an instance of brutal political censure of literature. Local politicians are judging one of the greatest living writers in the German language, warned eminent intellectuals, among them some, like Nobel laureate Gunther Grass who at one time advocated the bombing of Serbia.

At the same time Handke informed Peymann and his friends that he is renouncing the alternative award as well because, as he had previously stated, he did not wish his work to be the subject of meddling by local politicians. The money that they collect should be sent to the Serb enclaves in Kosovo and Metohija to people who are living under impossible conditions thanks to the supporters of "freedom" imposed upon them by NATO bombs.

Grass dismisses jury

In Dusseldorf it has now been openly admitted that the decision really was of a political nature and that the Heinrich Heine award allegedly has a clearly political character. In response to this, Grass, who is highly influential, has sent a request that in the future the city council be stripped of the right to approve or reject the decision of the expert jury.

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Related article:

Disputed Author Handke Awarded German Literary Prize

DEUTSCE WELLE 25.05.2006

Großansict des Bildes mit der Bildunterscrift: Austrian writer Peter Handke is controversial because of his stance on Serbia

Controversial Austrian playwright and novelist Peter Handke was awarded the city of Düseldorf's Heine Prize for literature.

The Heine Prize, endowed for 50,000 euros ($64,000), is one of the three highest-paying literature prizes in Germany. The jury said Handke -- like Heinric Heine, the German poet after whom the prize is named -- obstinately follows the way to an "open truth." He puts forth his own poetic world view, in contrast to broader public opinion, they said. The prize will be awared on Dec. 13.

Handke wrote the groundbreaking experimental play "Offending the Audience" and the novel "The Goalie's Anxiety at the Penalty Kick", but may be best know for writing the novel "Wings of Desire", whic was turned into a film by Wim Wenders.

Pro-Serbian stance

He is controversial because of his pro-Serbian stance during the Balkan wars, and his support for the Serbian regime.

Recently, Frenc national theatre Comédie-Française removed the play "Voyage to the Sonorous Land or the Art of Asking" from its 2007 season lineup, after Handke spoke at the burial of former Serbian dictator Slobodan Milosevic in Marc.

Handke, who lives in France, said in an esay in the Frenc newspaper Libération: "Let's stop laying the masacre . on the backs of the Serbian military and paramilitary. And listen -- at last -- to the survivors of the Muslim masacres in numerous Serbian villages around Srebrenica."

'Glad' aceptance

Last year, Handke's publisher, Suhrkamp Verlag, said the author would categorically refuse any more literature prizes; in Paris, however, Handke said he would "gladly" acept the Heine Prize.

Up to now, winners of the Heine Prize have included Walter Jens, Günter Kunert, Max Frisc, Wolf Biermann, Hans Magnus Enzensberger, Elfriede Jelinek und Robert Gernhardt.


TOPICS: Editorial; Foreign Affairs; Miscellaneous; Philosophy; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: albania; allybetrayed; austria; balkans; christianity; clintonlegacy; darkotheustashi; germany; ihoppy; islamofascists; jihad; kosovo; pancakeboy; serb; sorosfluffers; toothlessdhimmi; wrongplace; wrongside; wrongtime; wrongwar
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To: duckln
IMO history will show that Milosevic was one of the greatest servants of Democratic principles in our lifetime.

A dictator serving democratic principles.

The 'lie' against Serbia, used as a tool to break up the Balkans

Slovenia, Macedonia, Croatia and Montenegro left Yugoslavia in accordance with the will of the majority of their inhabitants.

A majority of the inhabitants of Bosnia, had they been permitted to vote, would have voted to exit Yugoslavia.

This would have stranded a sizable Serb minority which desired to remain Yugoslavian in Bosnia.

Yugoslavia's dictator decided to create a Serb majority in Bosnia to prevent this from happening.

Therefore, as a matter of policy, the Yugoslav government intiated a policy of exiling or killing the requisite number of non-Serbian Bosnians to create a Serb majority.

When that failed and Bosnia was partitioned, the advocates of Kosovar secession were emboldened.

Milosevic for the second time implemented the same policy, this time in Kosovo.

There is no "lie" here - the Milosevic regime committed crimes, and the different peoples of the Balkans wanted their independence as surely as the Slovaks, the Lithuanians, the Czechs, the Hungarians, the Ukrainians and other nations inside the Warsaw pact and Soviet Union wanted their independence.

To discuss the post-Communist national movements as if they were a plot instead of popular movements is ridiculous.

51 posted on 06/27/2006 8:04:19 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake
All hearsay and propaganda, and more lies. You can't be taken seriously. Check the trial transcripts.

The truth, the 'covert public' breakup of the Balkans played into the hands of the Islamists. Ever step of it was a lie.

We see the same strategy at work now in Iraq. All news is a misrepresentation of the facts, making W and the USA the enemies of peace.

52 posted on 06/27/2006 8:24:20 AM PDT by duckln
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To: wideawake

"Americans do not round up disarmed people and kill them in mass executions."

**** come again? Americans? The Serbs are the ones accused of killing 8,000 Muslims in Srebrenica. The Serbs did not kill 8,000 Muslims as claimed. The NATO bombing was the most indiscriminate and incompetent operation that one can imagine. It killed both Albanians and Serbs for another point. Where did you hear that Americans rounded up people.....????

In all due respect, I'm going to assume you mean well, but the media and reports were mostly fabricated. The point about Milosevic is not rumor.......Many of us have been doing much serious research on our involvement into the Balkans..which in fact, as a matter of history...documented, started in 1948 with the CIA getting involved with Albania. Did you know that the Albanians had a Nazi SS unit in Kosovo..murdering thousands of Serbs and jews...Called the Skenderburg Division...the same name they are using in Macedonia today. I know, I was in Kosovo from 1999 to 2004, as a security chief for OSCE. We, U.S. actually had American advisors working with the NLA during their operations in Macedonia.....early 2000 time frame....there is much people don't know and it was not the right thing to do.....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,688310,00.html



Peter Brock's book, Media Cleansing: Dirty Reporting

"Was the American public duped about Bosnia? We should be asking what kind of justice is this at The Hague that cases against Serbs are not over tuned when Muslim witnesses have admitted that they were coached by Bosnian authorities to lie on the witness stand? What kind of justice is Carla dela Ponte promoting by keeping Serbs imprisoned for killing numerous Bosnian Muslims who turned up alive and well in Sarajevo?"



Srebrenica Propaganda Challenged by Independent Research

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20050728&articleId=750

TWO FORMER SENIOR UN officials, and a group of journalists and academic researchers, on July 12, 2005, cast serious doubt on what they said were "highly inflated casualty figures and a misleading portrayal of events by governments, non-governmental organizations and major news organizations" with regard to the 1995 capture of Srebrenica, in Bosnia, by Bosnian Serb forces.

The Srebrenica Research Group, joined by former UN officials Philip Corwin and Carlos Martins Branco, released conclusions from their 200-page report "Srebrenica and the Politics of War Crimes" which said that US policy undermined UN and European brokered peace settlements, which could have ended the war in 1992 or 1993, in order to pursue a military solution which inevitably endangered safe zones. By facilitating shipments of illegal weapons to Muslim forces, the US helped turn safe zones into staging areas for conflict and tripwires for NATO intervention. The group, which will soon release the full report, announced the following conclusions:

The premise that Serbian forces executed 7,000 to 8,000 people "was never a possibility," according to former BBC journalist Jonathan Rooper, who investigated on site and through official records over many years the events which followed the capture of Srebrenica, and whose findings are presented in the upcoming report of the Srebrenica Research Group. He noted that by the first week of August 1995, 35,632 people had registered with the World Health Organization and Bosnian Government as displaced persons, survivors of Srebrenica, a figure which was later referred to [in] an Amnesty International report and the report of the Dutch Government.



Very importantly.......this article.

Selling the Bosnian Myth to America Buyer Beware
by LTC John E. Sray, U.S. Army
October 1995

"One man who minds his own business is more valuable to the world than 10,000 cocksure moralists." H. L. Mencken

http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/documents/bosnia2.htm


53 posted on 06/27/2006 8:26:13 AM PDT by tgambill (I would like to comment.....)
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To: duckln
All hearsay and propaganda, and more lies.

It's "hearsay" that the people of Montenegro voted to secede?

It's a"lie" that the people of Slovenia voted to secede?

So everyone who thinks that Slovenia is an independent country is hallucinating?

You're the one who should worry about being taken seriously.

54 posted on 06/27/2006 8:28:25 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake
It's "hearsay" that the people of Montenegro voted to secede?

Last I heard, it is still 'SerbiaMontenegro. If it just happened now, what does it have to do with with Milosevic?

It's a"lie" that the people of Slovenia voted to secede?

No. Ditto for Croatia. They both were countries in there own right. But it's how they then disfranchised their Serb citizens that infuriated Serbia.

Try to reply with something other than nonsense.

55 posted on 06/27/2006 8:40:27 AM PDT by duckln
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To: wideawake

Shirley you must be joking? just say yes, please?


56 posted on 06/27/2006 9:07:33 AM PDT by ma bell ("Take me to the Brig. I want to see the "real Marines". Major General Chesty Puller, USMC)
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To: wideawake
"Basically, shills for the Milosevic regime on this thread have offered a number of lame ripostes in about a dozen posts."

How convenient! Anyone who disagrees with you, you automatically labeled a "Milosevic shill" -- the refuge of the admittedly lame logician.

I do not support Milosevic, nor does the current Serb government (or most of the posters here) -- the Serbs (with the support of the Serbian Orthodox Church) tried to oust Milosevic in 1996. Remember the protests in Belgrade? But no one raised a finger to help them then, instead we waited three years later and bombed those same people. Why? Because the Kosovo Albanians had not gotten their independence bid on the table yet. The end-game wasn't ready yet.

False claim 4: "Since Clinton opposed Milosevic, he must have been a decent guy."

Milosevic was far from "a decent guy". He was a murderous opportunist who was willing to wear whatever mantle he thought would empower him at the moment -- and that was something he and Clinton had in common.

But there were two things that Milosevic was NOT -- an ideologue (communist or Serb Nationalist) Milosevic could have cared less what ideology he was wearing today or yesterday as long as it got him what he wanted, and that could only be derived from "keeping as much Yugoslavia intact as possible". Even today, you will find a variety of ethnic groups living in Serbia, including Croats, Slovenes and Muslims, so the "Hitler allusions" are just plain crap. Milosevic was not a racist -- the fight was over land and power -- not race or political persuasion. Milosevic was also NOT "the strategic aggressor" -- all of the various independence movements had been laying their groundwork for many years. I can recall back in the 1970's, NY airport being bombed by "Croat nationalists". My own Croat cousin was part of the more recent Croat indpendence movement, and he flat out told me that Germany was organizing it and backing it, which is precisely what Handke said. Milosevic may have been a bloody bastard in trying to keep the country together, but he didn't start these wars.

(Handke)Meeting with representatives of the Serbian Orthodox Church means nothing - the Serbian Orthdox Church was the most notorious and disgustingly obsequious collaborator with Communism of any of the national churches.

It really must hurt to be you.

The Serbian Orthodox Church suffered under communism just like every church in a communist country suffered under communism.

The NY Times covered the story of Bishop Sava of Shumadija in the mid-1980's who had had enough of the communists. The Yugoslav "Minister of Cults & Education" at the time, wouldn't allow "crosses on new churches to be visible from the road" and Bishop Sava declared the guy "persona non grata", openly challenging him and the communist system in Yugoslavia. We all held our breath as to what was going to happen to Bishop Sava next -- we thought that he would wind up dead or in prison. But, to everyone's surprise, the government backed down, for the first time in 40 years! I later met Bishop Sava in Los Angeles, when he became the Bishop Administrator for the Western Diocese of the SOC -- and he had no answers for why he did what he did, other than "sometimes you've had enough at the same time that God has had enough and you take a stand because it is what you must do for your own conscience".

Reality: Serbian troops - who themselves had no problem carrying out military operations on Easter and every other holiday in the Serbian Orthodox calendar, so quit whining about the US carrying out military operations on the same day - murdered easily hundreds and perhaps thousands of Kosovars including women and children.

I have no idea what you are talking about -- "thousands of Kosovars murdered on Easter"? The ICTY has only come up with less than 3,000 dead on all sides in Kosovo during a several year peiod and not "on Easter" -- and even the highest post-bombing estimates put the number on all sides dead at under 10,000! Who is the "propagandist" here, pal? You!

And what is "a Kosovar"? Or a "Bosniak"? Except a false ethnic identity created for propagandist purposes? None of the people in Yugoslavia ever referred to each other or themselves with these identifiers until they wanted countries of their own. All of a sudden, identifiers like "Boniak" made the Bosnian Muslims sound like the "real indigenous people" as opposed to those dirty "Serbians" who had actually inhabited the land, as Serbs, longer than the Muslims. Likewise, "Kosovar" -- instead of "Kosovo Albanian" to give Albanians a claim in Kosovo that they never had before. It's pure propaganda, and it is coming out of your mouth, not mine!

It is you, not me or us, who are the propagandist here -- whether this is out of pure ignorance on your part or of a deliberate campaign is anyone's guess.

57 posted on 06/27/2006 9:33:01 AM PDT by Bokababe (www.savekosovo.org)
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To: wideawake
The U.S. flew in the Mujahideen, as it was no skin off its back if those mutilating fighters whacked off the heads of Serbian farmers. The Dutch Srebrenica report highlighted the "enormous" amount of weapons and middle eastern fighters brought in by the Pentagon:

America used Islamists to arm the Bosnian Muslims

The Srebrenica report reveals the Pentagon's role in a dirty war

Bill Clinton and the Pentagon were keen to be seen as creditworthy and repaid in the form of an Iran-Contra style operation - in flagrant violation of the UN security council arms embargo against all combatants in the former Yugoslavia.

The result was a vast secret conduit of weapons smuggling though Croatia. This was arranged by the clandestine agencies of the US, Turkey and Iran, together with a range of radical Islamist groups, including Afghan mojahedin and the pro-Iranian Hizbullah. Wiebes reveals that the British intelligence services obtained documents early on in the Bosnian war proving that Iran was making direct deliveries.

Arms purchased by Iran and Turkey with the financial backing of Saudi Arabia made their way by night from the Middle East. Initially aircraft from Iran Air were used, but as the volume increased they were joined by a mysterious fleet of black C-130 Hercules aircraft. The report stresses that the US was "very closely involved" in the airlift. Mojahedin fighters were also flown in, but they were reserved as shock troops for especially hazardous operations.

Light weapons are the familiar currency of secret services seeking to influence such conflicts. The volume of weapons flown into Croatia was enormous, partly because of a steep Croatian "transit tax". Croatian forces creamed off between 20% and 50% of the arms. The report stresses that this entire trade was clearly illicit. The Croats themselves also obtained massive quantities of illegal weapons from Germany, Belgium and Argentina - again in contravention of the UN arms embargo. The German secret services were fully aware of the trade.

Rather than the CIA, the Pentagon's own secret service was the hidden force behind these operations. The UN protection force, UNPROFOR, was dependent on its troop-contributing nations for intelligence, and above all on the sophisticated monitoring capabilities of the US to police the arms embargo. This gave the Pentagon the ability to manipulate the embargo at will: ensuring that American Awacs aircraft covered crucial areas and were able to turn a blind eye to the frequent nightime comings and goings at Tuzla.

Weapons flown in during the spring of 1995 were to turn up only a fortnight later in the besieged and demilitarised enclave at Srebrenica. When these shipments were noticed, Americans pressured UNPROFOR to rewrite reports, and when Norwegian officials protested about the flights, they were reportedly threatened into silence.


58 posted on 06/27/2006 9:38:20 AM PDT by joan
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To: joan
Thanks for the completely unsubstantiated thirdhand propaganda from the UK Guardian.

I hope you don't claim to be either an American or a conservative.

59 posted on 06/27/2006 9:46:11 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake
"Even assuming that the old women and young children killed at Srebrenica were also Kosovar terrorists, US troops would not massacre 3,000 people wholesale."

You cannot even get your facts straight. The accusation is that Serbs killed MEN. The women and children were given civilian bus rides to the Tuzla airport, where plenty of media awaited. They had no scratches or bruises on them.

The men, though, had started marching/sneaking out of Srebrenica before the Serbs entered the city, but they had a lot of Serbian-held territory to walk through before they got to Bosnian Muslim government territory. They did arrive there by the thousands within a week or so. Some did die in skirmishes along the way and other factors such as landmines. The autopsy reports aren't made publicly available to enable anyone to scrutinize exactly how they died. There is no disguishing between battle deaths, accidents or possible POW execution deaths.

60 posted on 06/27/2006 9:47:11 AM PDT by joan
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To: wideawake
Yeah, now try to discredit this source, dude-in-a-stupor that you are.

Clinton-Approved Iranian Arms Transfers Help Turn Bosnia into Militant Islamic Base

61 posted on 06/27/2006 9:54:51 AM PDT by joan
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To: joan
Ah, yes. Those women and children who were murdered in Potocari and Kamenica at the same time that the men were being slaughtered never existed. Srebrenica was an all-male Bosniak enclave.

Please, give me a break.

62 posted on 06/27/2006 9:59:13 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake
Please name the women and children who were killed and provide a link.

So you don't know about the UN arranged bus rides to Tuzla?

63 posted on 06/27/2006 10:00:10 AM PDT by joan
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To: joan
LOL!

I thought it was US Military Intelligence that was smuggling arms into Bosnia. Now you tell me that it was Iranian agents.

You realize that the Pentagon is not located in Iran, right?

64 posted on 06/27/2006 10:00:57 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake
His claim that the US targeted civilian residential buildings for no purpose other than to destroy Communist banners and murals is ridiculous on its face, has absolutely no evidence behind it and proves that the man is a bald-faced liar.

I have/read his book (To Kill a Nation) and I do not recall such statement. Can you give me some reference/page number?

He is one customer review from the Amazon link:

21 of 22 people found the following review helpful:

Dynamic, muckraking at its finest, February 18, 2005 Reviewer: Thomas Willard "il_duce" (San Francisco) - See all my reviews

I found this book to be one of the most honest attempts to discern the dynamic forces acting upon and precipitating the spate of late 20th Cent Balkan Wars. This book is certainly written from a left wing perspective. If you think that the IMF and World Bank are great institutions, then you are going to disagree with Parenti. Parenti unearths many important details that alter some of the predjudices that the press constructs in an almost a priori way. The Serbs must always be bad. I visited Serbia in 2001; while they were bitter at America, most were very polite and accomodating. After all, how would you feel about Serbia if they bombed your city for 79 straight days.

Some of the details that Parenti shares:
1. Toward the end of the war, the Croats bombed, with German artillery, in the Krajinia/Knin fleeing Serbian civilians as they were ethnically cleansed. In 2001, while taking the bus through Knin, I sat near a cute Croat girl, maybe 25. "We got rid of the Serbs in this area" she stated with a grin. "They just ran away." Perspective?

2. The marketplace bombing that really brought the conflict to the nightly news, was a bit of a hoax. Forensic experts examined the corpses and found that they had died earlier than the date of the bombing. The press just does not follow up their claims when they are wrong.

3. The role of the IMF and World Bank were huge. The central federal bank in Belgrade was frozen after Milosevich refused to accomodate some of the SAP's that the IMF were insisting upon. Without the transfer of money to the provinces, the people grew angry.

There are many other points he makes, I found these interesting. I think an accurate analysis is needed to create foreign policy on, rather than preconceived notions.

65 posted on 06/27/2006 10:02:20 AM PDT by A. Pole (Russian proverb: "All are not cooks that walk with long knives")
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To: joan
Please name the women and children who were killed and provide a link.

Are you actually arguing that no crimes were committed by the Serbian army at Potocari? Really?

So you don't know about the UN arranged bus rides to Tuzla?

They sure did, and some of those buses actually made it to Tuzla. Not all did.

Basically you're arguing that the Serbian Army would have killed all the women and children along with the men, but that they were frustrated in this purpose by the UN's decision to try to evacuate all the women and children first.

66 posted on 06/27/2006 10:04:16 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: A. Pole

An Amazon review by someone who calls himself "Il Duce" (that's interesting) is supposed to prove what, exactly?


67 posted on 06/27/2006 10:05:45 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake
Look out! Behind you! It's a Serbian Socialist-Communist!

Haha. Made ya jump... and probably crap down your leg :-)

68 posted on 06/27/2006 10:06:08 AM PDT by getoffmylawn (Greg Dulli for President)
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To: getoffmylawn
Thanks for your well thought out contribution to the thread.
69 posted on 06/27/2006 10:07:36 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake

The U.S. flew Iranian arms to Croatia.


70 posted on 06/27/2006 10:07:40 AM PDT by joan
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To: wideawake
Here is a photo of the Srebrenica evacuation. No one appears injured at all.


71 posted on 06/27/2006 10:09:36 AM PDT by joan
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To: joan
The U.S. flew Iranian arms to Croatia.

Really? American planes flew weapons from Iranian territory to Croatia? None of your sources even hint at such a preposterous tale.

72 posted on 06/27/2006 10:11:10 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake
were you in Potocari, or Mali Potocari like I was, wideawake? If so, please give details of your findings.

Were you in Srebrenica too? Fill me in with details of what you found or saw? I'm waiting....

73 posted on 06/27/2006 10:11:56 AM PDT by ma bell ("Take me to the Brig. I want to see the "real Marines". Major General Chesty Puller, USMC)
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To: joan
Here is a photo of the Srebrenica evacuation. No one appears injured at all.

Why would they be?

The UN started evacuating people from the town before the Serb army gained control of it.

Pathetic bait-and-switch tactic.

74 posted on 06/27/2006 10:13:22 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake

I'm still waiting for your first, Scaredy Cat. You are obviously of the one track mind.


75 posted on 06/27/2006 10:14:51 AM PDT by getoffmylawn (Greg Dulli for President)
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To: wideawake
An Amazon review by someone who calls himself "Il Duce" (that's interesting) is supposed to prove what, exactly?

It was not intended as a proof. BTW, the real "Il Duce" was on the side of Croats and Albanians, not on the side of Serbs.

76 posted on 06/27/2006 10:16:09 AM PDT by A. Pole (Russian proverb: "All are not cooks that walk with long knives")
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To: ma bell
Yes, I was there every bit as much as you were - which is to say that I was not there at all.

Were you in Srebrenica too? Fill me in with details of what you found or saw? I'm waiting....

You know, I've never been to Auschwitz - so I guess I'm really just guessing when I say that myriads of Jews were murdered there.

Interesting rule: unless one is physically present to witness an historical event, it didn't happen. Brilliant argument.

77 posted on 06/27/2006 10:16:25 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: getoffmylawn
I'm still waiting for your first, Scaredy Cat. You are obviously of the one track mind.

Thanks again for the substantive discussion, even though you are definitely of the poor grammar.

78 posted on 06/27/2006 10:18:12 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake

Anything for you, pal. I'm just enjoying watching you get spanked on this thread :-)


79 posted on 06/27/2006 10:19:42 AM PDT by getoffmylawn (Greg Dulli for President)
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To: wideawake; getoffmylawn
To: wideawake
Look out! Behind you! It's a Serbian Socialist-Communist!

Haha. Made ya jump... and probably crap down your leg :-)


68 posted on 06/27/2006 10:06:08 AM PDT by getoffmylawn (Greg Dulli for President)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: getoffmylawn
Thanks for your well thought out contribution to the thread.
69 posted on 06/27/2006 10:07:36 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)

==========================
==========================

It made me laugh.

80 posted on 06/27/2006 10:19:43 AM PDT by ma bell ("Take me to the Brig. I want to see the "real Marines". Major General Chesty Puller, USMC)
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To: A. Pole
It was not intended as a proof. BTW, the real "Il Duce" was on the side of Croats and Albanians, not on the side of Serbs.

Really? So when Mussolini invaded Albania in April 1939 he was just kidding?

And when Mussolini and his Fascists seized the Croatian coast by force in March 1924, that was just Mussolini showing his support for Croatians by shooting them and jailing them?

81 posted on 06/27/2006 10:23:40 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake

You are wrong for he was in Bosnia and he did witness the results of a Muslim Green Beret attack on a Serbian school in a UN controlled zone: the Muslims cut off the children's heads and put them on desks. That's how the Serbian parents found them.


82 posted on 06/27/2006 10:26:42 AM PDT by joan
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To: joan
It doesn't surprise me that Muslims would do such a thing. It's in their nature.

That doesn't exonerate Milosevic of his crimes, nor does it provide a shred of evidence that US citizens flew arms from Iran to Croatia..

83 posted on 06/27/2006 10:30:50 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: wideawake
wideawake wrote:

Yes, I was there every bit as much as you were - which is to say that I was not there at all.

You know, I've never been to Auschwitz - so I guess I'm really just guessing when I say that myriads of Jews were murdered there.

Interesting rule: unless one is physically present to witness an historical event, it didn't happen. Brilliant argument

====================

I'd have and post up photos but I'm in Iraq now continuing to fight islamic hordes you are defending. The smae ones that were in BiH as early as 1991.

That is right, you were not there. I was at Srebrenica, M.Potocari, Skelani and Milici region. What you fail to realize is what was hidden from you by the Clinton Administration and the media.

Do you realize the Serb Army offered an amnesty pass for ALL muslims that include the men of military age to get on the bus with full UN Escort to Tuzla? There, a split formed within the muslim army of those who wanted to leave v. those who wanted to stay.

Oric muslims were ordered to create the scene of violence and death to pin the blame on the Serbs (it actually worked). The infighting between the two created the bulk/majority of the casualties. The Serb Army, Mladic Garde and the other Drina Corps Serbs moved in to easily retake the town.

Know anything about the terrain of Srebrenica? Not very good for much fighting like the other areas. All slopes and very high degree climbs/descents. Tanks/tracked vehicles were negated due to that.

you know, i'd like to further comment more..but........... you don't know cr@p of what happened and you are easily swayed by your own weakmind.

84 posted on 06/27/2006 10:32:18 AM PDT by ma bell ("Take me to the Brig. I want to see the "real Marines". Major General Chesty Puller, USMC)
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To: wideawake
It doesn't surprise me that Muslims would do such a thing. It's in their nature.

Yeah. It's probably a good thing in the long run. Those little kids probably would have grown up to be socialists anyway.

85 posted on 06/27/2006 10:34:55 AM PDT by getoffmylawn (Greg Dulli for President)
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To: wideawake
"They sure did, and some of those buses actually made it to Tuzla. Not all did."

Prove it. Give us a link and tell us how many didn't make it.

Can you give us the names of small children killed - any?

How many women and children do you claim were killed?

Tuzla was flooded with 10s of thousands of bused refugees after the fall and the numbers of women and children appear to be equal to the numbers there before the fall. Remember that the UN had told them to go to Potocari days before the Serbs arrived - and the UN even warned them about going back to their homes. They were all set to leave, and the UN had arranged it like that.

Plus when the men arrived, on foot about a week later, the Bosnian government kept the Red Cross from recording their names. Some of these men were in other fights during the last few months of war in Bosnia. They left their strong defenses all around Srebrenica to sneak out, and their leadership, including commander Naser Oric, left weeks before the fall.

In otherwords, preparations were being made to leave and desert Srebrenica by the Muslim leadership at least weeks before and by the UN about one week before the Serbs arrived.

It was set up.

86 posted on 06/27/2006 10:36:47 AM PDT by joan
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To: wideawake; getoffmylawn
More truth harbored in his short post than the entirety of the dribble you've posted on this entire thread.
87 posted on 06/27/2006 10:48:30 AM PDT by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: ma bell
I'd have and post up photos but I'm in Iraq now continuing to fight islamic hordes you are defending.

Thank you for your service.

As for your analysis . . . blah, blah, blah - criticizing Milosevic equals defending Islam? Not much logic there.

Do you realize the Serb Army offered an amnesty pass for ALL muslims that include the men of military age to get on the bus with full UN Escort to Tuzla?

I'm sure the Serb Army would say anything that would reflect upon them favorably. Their main objective at the time was to gain as much territory as possible, of course.

There, a split formed within the muslim army of those who wanted to leave v. those who wanted to stay.

I'm sure a split did form. Various observers claim that at least half the men in Srebrenica fled on foot toward Tuzla.

Oric muslims were ordered to create the scene of violence and death to pin the blame on the Serbs (it actually worked).

Who gave this order? Which Muslims volunteered to die in order to make this whole ruse look convincing?

Not very good for much fighting like the other areas. All slopes and very high degree climbs/descents.

Bad for tanks, but decent for artillery emplacements on adjoining rises.

you know, i'd like to further comment more..but........... you don't know cr@p of what happened and you are easily swayed by your own weakmind.

Please clarify: are you saying that you were actually present in Srebrenica and/or surrounding communities at some point during July 6-22 1995?

88 posted on 06/27/2006 10:50:07 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: getoffmylawn
"Those little kids probably would have grown up to be socialists anyway"

LOL!!!

89 posted on 06/27/2006 10:50:33 AM PDT by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: joan
Can you give us the names of small children killed - any?

Can you give us the names of the American pilots who flew arms from iran to Croatia?

That's hardly surprising - Srebrenica was surrounded on all sides by Serbian-controlled territory. No non-Serbian force could hold out there for too long without resupply.

The UN more or less declared the area a Safe Area in order to hold off the Serb forces to evacuate the city in an orderly fashion.

90 posted on 06/27/2006 10:54:56 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: ma bell

You are not going to get any kind of feedback based on reality from this brainwashed bozo. Expect a rehash of Weasely and Mad Maddie comments...and their muslim butcher allies.


91 posted on 06/27/2006 10:55:36 AM PDT by eleni121 ('Thou hast conquered, O Galilean!' (Julian the Apostate))
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To: montyspython

Another Milosevic supporter weighs in. Thanks.


92 posted on 06/27/2006 10:56:34 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: eleni121

Another Milosevic fan. Excellent. My condolences on the loss of your hero.


93 posted on 06/27/2006 10:58:35 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: tomzz

Well said Juanita Broderick is the real story behind Kosovo "liberation" (newspeak for "ethnic cleansing of Serbs and keeping the Saudi oil flowing").


94 posted on 06/27/2006 11:03:02 AM PDT by attiladhun2 (evolution has both deified and degraded humanity)
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To: wideawake

I am? How so? Now you're making stuff up, why?


95 posted on 06/27/2006 11:04:49 AM PDT by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: wideawake
This is a book you can buy at amazon.com or probably find in your local library. It is written to push the Srebrenica hype and is about a large extended family of brothers-in-laws, sisters-in-laws, their parents, and children and it has plenty of pictures of them. Yet what I notice is that absolutely none of the women and children in the family lost their lives, nor were there any injuries during the war and evacuation. The military aged men in the family were soldiers who walked out. There were indeed a couple of missing men of the family who were soldiers too - but they were last seen during the march out after there was a skirmish with the Serbs outside Srebrenica - meaning they likely perished in the fights, one of which had large tree branch falling, after an exchange of fire, and killing several the men while having others run off in panic (they often travelled through wooded areas yet not too deep that they keep a side road in their sight).

The Muslims had a large, battled-hardened army up to the day before the fall, and held the advantage of being in a defensive position and the terrain, yet most all of them MARCHED OUT WITHOUT FIGHTING.

This is the quote from one of the men who says they were ordered to leave their strong defenses all around. I seriously doubt the smaller Serb force coming could have entered Srebrenica if the Muslim army seriously tried to defend it. That's why I think it was a set up - the Serbs were allowed to take Srebrenica, probably as a way to wrap up the war and make a neater separation of the factions at the time.

After the Fall: Srebrenica Survivors in St. Louis

P. 120 “Srebrenica Survivors in St. Louis: After the Fall” text and interviews by Patrick McCarthy:

Srebrenica’s fall was very sudden. We were in our village when the attack began. There were strong points, strong defenses all around. My brother was with me. My mother, wife, and child were together and they went to Potocari.

Around 7:30 in the evening, we got the news that women and children should go in one direction and that men should go in another direction because of the possibility of attack.

The order came from the brigade commander in Srebrenica and the people followed that direction.

It was really hard. My wife took our child and left. I stayed behind at our house and waited for others who were leaving, so that we could go together.

About 11:15 p.m., the men started to get together and we went to a nearby village where the men were also gathering. I was with my family, friends, and neighbors. At one point, there were, I think, something like eighteen thousand men together in that one place.

They told us it would be difficult to walk from the place where we had gathered, to walk to Tuzla, because it was hard to organize eighteen thousand people into one row so that they would go one after another.

People started leaving about 1:00 a.m. It wasn’t our time to go until about 6:00 a.m. Those ahead of us were moving for five hours and we still didn’t leave until 6:00 a.m. – my brother and the others I was with.

We crossed the Serb line and it immediately became more difficult because we were in their territory. There was one huge group of people walking in front of us, marking the way to go. Of course, after eighteen thousand people go, there is a mark of the way, there was a trail of the way out.

I arrived in Tuzla on the seventh day.


96 posted on 06/27/2006 11:04:51 AM PDT by joan
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To: wideawake
You are also aware that the muslims also crossed the Drina River to enter Serbia, don't you? They were treated well after processing to ensure they were not wanted or known criminals.

You are defending the mujas as your proof shows it.

Izetbegovic and Oric ordered his his men to stay as they knew the circumstances. Cross line forays and entering Serbian villages with the purpose of killing, only will bring vengeance brought back onto the perps. Alas too, they did also make a raid across the Drina into Serbian Proper, an international incident that should have brought a military response from the Serbian Army but restraint was shown.

You lost me and probably others when you mention the 'Serbs will say anything'.

You have become a hopeless cause that upon completion of your college freshman year and reach the age of twenty, maybe you will begin seeing how the world of politics actually functions.

97 posted on 06/27/2006 11:08:29 AM PDT by ma bell ("Take me to the Brig. I want to see the "real Marines". Major General Chesty Puller, USMC)
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To: wideawake
"Can you give us the names of the American pilots who flew arms from iran to Croatia?"

Uh, when people DIE, it is noted by relatives and the bodies have to be buried.

The names of the pilots would be known to the Pentagon, and there's no way for the public to know any information from them which they don't release.

However, when you make an accusation of murder, it should require a body and identification and some autopsy proof of how they died.

There's been an extreme amount of attention on Srebrenica, so it should be available and known the names of any children who died - or at least the number of them.

98 posted on 06/27/2006 11:08:56 AM PDT by joan
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To: joan
(1) The survival of most of one family does prove the intact survival of all the rest.

(2) No one denies that the Muslim forces in Srebrenica were battle-hardened or that the town was physically well-defended.

That's not the point.

When you are surrounded on all sides by Serbian territory, making it impossible to resupply, and the UN says "we will help you evacuate, but we will not help you fight", you evacuate.

99 posted on 06/27/2006 11:16:37 AM PDT by wideawake ("The nation which forgets its defenders will itself be forgotten." - Calvin Coolidge)
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To: eleni121
"You are not going to get any kind of feedback based on reality from this brainwashed bozo. Expect a rehash of Weasely and Mad Maddie comments...and their muslim butcher allies."

So wideawake is actually a Muslim propagandist, who assumes the rest of the FReepers are fast asleep?

Makes perfect sense! "Case Closed"! LOL!

100 posted on 06/27/2006 11:23:28 AM PDT by Bokababe (www.savekosovo.org)
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