Skip to comments.Terrestrial Evidence of a Nuclear Catastrophe in Paleoindian Times
Posted on 07/24/2006 12:03:03 AM PDT by ForGod'sSake
click here to read article
Yes, the Toba eruption 74kya, left a crater 18 by 50 or 60 miles (I couldn't find my reference just now but that is what I remember). One heck of an impact. Some scientists say it reduced the earth's human population of 5 or 10,000 individuals, and I think that includes Neanderthals, and obviously those new Flores folk.
While reading this post I came across the following; "A candidate for the reverse shock wave is the supernova remnant North Polar Spur, with an estimated age of 75,000 years and a distance of...424 light years,...locatd in the north sky from where it would have preferentially irradiated the Northern Hemisphere." At the time I thought now isn't that an interesting coincidence.
Is it possible that major cosmic energy bombardments, influence major volcanic and techtonic events here on earth? Jaggar in "Volcanoes Declare War," 1945, shows an interesting chart of Kilauea volcano in Hawaii in which he observes an apparent correlation between the maximum altitude of the lava pool with sunspot minima, p. 149.
It would be interesting if scientists would look at that, if they haven't already. Regarding a stepwise lowering of world temperatures from about 28,000 BP to 18,000 BP, one step occurred at 22,000 ya, and I find the Sakara-jima volcano in Japan blew out a caldera 15 miles in diameter. I am still looking for other smoking guns. This may have been the final blow to Neanderthals.
Is there any possibility that Carolina Bays could have been formed by a tsunami depositing huge icebergs, which then melted leaving these gouges, or if covered by inwashed dirt, leaving a depression?
Just a guess, but I would say it's unlikely because any icebergs would have had to been hugging the shoreline. Otherwise, they would just ridden it out, IMO.
What is the resistance? I think it is the same kind of resistance that kept doctors from using antispeptic practices for 70 years after Semelweiss (sp?) introduced them into a maternity hospital and proved they saved lives from dying of infection. I think you had the same kind of resistance to African paleontolgy regarding Dart's a Leakey's discoveries.
I guess if you have spent a lot of time and money becoming an expert in one line of thought, it is really irritating to be asked to change it especially by one who has not gone through the ordeal of "basic training".
Yellow cake in Gabon? Palme sent Wilson to the wrong country.
Hold yer fire Fred! I'll be til daylight catching up.......JK. Please add any other links on the subject to the thread. In time I hope to get up to speed re the electric universe. It almost seems like being in on the ground floor of something even though the ideas/theories have been around for decades. Thanks for taking the time and effort to contribute from your KB.
I believe there were glacial dams up near Manitoba, north of the Great Lakes.
And through it all they hold themselves up as practitioners of the scientific method. Hypocrites!
The Grand Canyon may be evidence of a Large Crack in the earth.
You'll love this if you haven't seen it before...
His paper had some aerial photos from the 1930's or earlier that were not nearly as overprinted with cultural development.
I believe he used torsion-balance and magnetometer data from his transits to support his conclusions. Man's name was McCampbell -- he's dead these 25 years now -- don't know if his paper was published.
Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumoured by many.
Do not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your religious books.
Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders.
Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations.
But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.
- Gautama Buddha
is this anything like you are looking for?
No to be stupid, but why not just use the word "ago". As in, 15,000 years ago there was a nuclear explosion over Detroit.
I have another "toba" right in my back yard so to speak : the Yellowstone super volcano, kitty corner across Montana. A 5+ richter earthquake hit it just a couple of years ago, kept quiet for obvious reasons, but something is definitely going on with it as the ground is rising FAST, as well as increased geothermal activity. There is a HUGE magma chamber below it and it's on the MOVE. Yellowstone super-blows about every 600,000 years and it's been 640,000 years since the last one(30+/- minor eruptions in between). If it's a MAJOR one it's nuclear winter(where oh where is global warming when you really need it).......Neanderthals have been intensely studied, they even think they can get their DNA somehow(jurassic park?)but all they have to do is get democrat's DNA for a perfect match. Actually the basques may be neanderthals(they supposedly died out on gibralter rock 19,000 years ago)as they are definitely a distinctly different people with a language unrelated to any other language......Interesting story about the runts on new Flores, evolutionary downsizing of the whole ecology on that island. Possible lessons for our time? Have you got your survival supplies ready for when IT happens? Whatever IT is....
Don't be too hard on them...one has to take into account the history and background upon which the natural sciences were founded.
This is the bedrock. The names are familiar. Murcheson, Buckland, Agassiz, Sedgewick, Lyall...what was it Velikovsky said; they speak from the era of the horse and buggy and oil lamps?
That some old aerial photog from the 20's/30's? Been interested in finding old aerial coverage from "back in the day" for comparison, but it all seems to be locked up in paid-subscription sites, last time I checked. Used to be some Soviet Cosmos imagery available from the 80's, too, 10 years ago when I was just discovering the Net. My house was on one shot, and I was probably in the picture myself, at work at a building down the road at the moment the photo was shot from 120 miles up or however high the Sovs flew their Cosmos birds.
Thanks for the post.
OK...I'll see if I can explain this using an analogy. (For background information, you might want to acquire a copy of James P. Owens' "Geologic Map of the Cape Fear Region, 1 degree x 2 degree quadrangle, and Northern Half of the Georgetown 1 degree x 2 degree quadrangle, North Carolina and South Carolina" [I know that's a mouthful, but it's a great map].)
The Coastal Plain of the southeastern US consists of a series of marine terraces of Tertiary and Quaternary age, inset, stretching from the Sandhills (or Piedmont, north of Raleigh) all the way to the edge of the continental shelf. Think of these as a series of stair-steps, with treads and risers just like stairs...the risers are scarps, and the treads are terrace treads. Now, to illustrate the pattern made by Carolina Bays on these landscapes, do the following:
1. Procure a bunch of half-dollars, quarters, nickels, pennies, and dimes.
2. Go to a set of stairs in your home (assuming you have stairs), and face the stairs, looking upstairs.
3. Place the half-dollars in a row on a tread, right next to the uphill riser, running parallel to the edge of the riser.
4. Place the quarters in a row parallel to the first row, an inch or so toward you (i.e., closer to the downhill edge of the tread).
5. Place the nickels in the next row, then the pennies, then the dimes.
This is a simplified version of the pattern made by Carolina Bays. The largest Bays, generally, are geographically nearest the toe of the landward scarp, and average bay size decreases seaward on the terrace. It repeats itself on each new tread. I was in the office looking at topo maps and aerial photos of our survey area one day and had a "Eureka!!" moment when I recognized this pattern. You won't be able to see it on the small area shown in your photo; you need to be able to trace scarps on a series of 7.5 minute quadrangle topo maps, and compare aerial photos across the same area. It takes a big table and a lot of maps. The pattern just lept right out at me.
By the way, if you can view the geologic map I referenced, you'll see that the very largest bays (Waccamaw, White Lake, etc) lie atop the Cape Fear arch, which is still geologically active; this suggests that tectonism may play a role in bay formation.
As for Alaska:
When I was at Soil Science Institute a few years ago, which then was held at Washington State University, on of the professors had a large poster of an aerial photograph of those formations on the North Slope. They look EXACTLY llike Carolina Bays. I saw the poster from a distance, and thinking it was of Carolina Bays, walked up to have a look..and was surprised to find the photo was of Alaska.
If I recall correctly, the geomorphic surface upon which these Alaskan Bays reside is younger (i.e., Holocene) than the ones currently supporting bays in the Carolinas. This is larglely an artifact of Holocene marine transgressions in the Southeast US; if you drill down through the various stranded barrier dunes and back-barrier flats along the coast of South Carolina today, you will find buried carolina bays.
"...Is there any possibility that Carolina Bays could have been formed by a tsunami depositing huge icebergs, which then melted leaving these gouges, or if covered by inwashed dirt, leaving a depression?..."
I considered this possibility some years ago. The theory is enticing, but I had to reject it in light of what I discovered about how Carolina Bays are arranged on the land. See my post #119.
Although the Bay Rims date from the Pleistocene-holocene boundary, the bays themselves do not.
How can this possibly be? You'll probably need to go slow here with this ol' East Texas country boy. But, I have an open mind however, so I'm trainable.
They are contemporaneous with the fluviomarine terraces upon which they occur, and therefore, were not all formed at once, but sequentially; as sea level dropped and each new terrace was exposed, new bays were formed.
You're suggesting the bays were laid down over a period of hundreds, maybe thousands of years? Some within others? And different sizes; many overlapping? But the rims are all the same age??? I understand and appreciate your familiarity with the bays, but you'll forgive my skepticism?
You recall those 100 pound hailstones mentioned in the Bible(and possibly elsewhere)? To be honest, that seems as plausible as anything else I've read so far. And that's my story and I'm stickin' to it ;^)
The problem as I understand with that conclusion is there have been no other indicators found from an impactor.........NONE. At least that I've run across in my searches. But who knows. Renfield is doing his best to explain all this in natural, make that, terrestial terms; I'm sure he gets frustrated. He has his own hypothesis that just sounds weird to me; being a layman ;^)
Thanks Fred. Keep 'em coming. I may as well move my computinmachine into the kitchen; like in front of the fridge, so's I won't have to get up and leave to eat. On second thought...........
Back about '97 or '98 I read a paper (unfortunately, I've forgotten the author and journal, but I could probably hunt it up eventually) on bay rims in South Carolina. The researcher dated them to the P-H boundary (perhaps by Optical Stimulation Luminescense?). Formation of rims is pretty easy to understand. 12,000 to 10,000 years ago, most of North America was both colder and windier than it is now. There were still trees in South Carolina, but they would have been more thinly spread than today, sort of like a Savannah. Bays, being depressional areas, were wetter than the surrounding higher areas, and would have supported much denser stands of trees. These denser stands of trees acted like windbreaks; when wind slows down, it drops much of its aeolian load, and indeed, the thickest portions of bay rims are along the southeastern edges of bays, which would have been in the lee of prevailing winter winds. (This is similar to snow drifts forming on the lee side of a hedge or fence). The woody vegetation in bays was (and is) different from that of the surrounding upland areas, too; deciduous evergreens like Red Bay, Loblolly Bay, Sweet Bay, Dahoon, Ti-Ti, etc, while the vegetation on the uplands was dominantly oak-hickory...trees that would lose their leaves during the winter. The Bays were very effective windbreaks.
As for the ages of bays themselves, I think that was from a paper by Ray Daniels and Ehrling Gamble circa 1967. The copies weren't mine, they belonged to one of my colleagues, so it would take me some effort to track them down.
Aeon Flux, however, is rather nice. Tempermental though. And short-lived.
Well, not entirely. The Alaska "bays" are not nearly as uniform in shape or length/width dimensions. Seems the folks studying the Alaska bays haven't reached a conclusion yet as to what actually creates their bays either. Butt crack ice(cracking the bedrock) and thawing seems to be the most widely accepted hypothesis.
...if you drill down through the various stranded barrier dunes and back-barrier flats along the coast of South Carolina today, you will find buried carolina bays.
You're talking barrier islands/strips? Backfilled by wave action? Hurricanes? Tusnamis? Rising oceans? Even so, does that necessarily rule out aerial fireworks? Like I said, you'll need to go slow with this ol' East Texas country boy ;^)
BTW, I'm sure you're familiar with the other "bays" around the world. After doing some additional searching, there seems to be a bunch of these things around. MANY of them nowhere near a present or historic/prehistoric shoreline. Some aligned parallel with a shoreline; some at elevations of a thousand feet; maybe more. Thoughts? Best I can tell the one thing they seem to have in common is they have been located(the visible ones?) on soft soil. Sandy lome and the like??? I suppose if sand dunes didn't change so much they might be good candidates for finding visible bays.
This is giving me a headache. Think I'll take a nap.
"....You're suggesting the bays were laid down over a period of hundreds, maybe thousands of years? Some within others? And different sizes; many overlapping? But the rims are all the same age??? I understand and appreciate your familiarity with the bays, but you'll forgive my skepticism?..."
I am indeed. And I think I have a good theory to explain it. I'm reluctant to post it all here, partially because it would require a lot of drawings and illustrations, and partially because I'm mulling over the possiblity of going back to school for my PhD in geomorphology, and I don't want someone else to steal my research idea out from under me. However, if you are ever in my area and would like to meet me in person, I'll be glad to talk your ear off about it. :)
"...You're talking barrier islands/strips? Backfilled by wave action? Hurricanes? Tusnamis? Rising oceans? ..."
Yes, yes, yes, yes, and more. Once sea level becomes relatively stable for a while, barrier islands form along continental edges of low gradient (such as along our eastern and southeastern coasts). Backbarrier areas accrete soil and soil-forming material rapidly; this includes wind-and wave-deposited mineral material, as well as organic detritus from saltmarsh vegetation (and the saltmarsh vegetation itself acts as a filter to trap suspended sands, silts and clays). One of my colleagues at the Smithsonian Environmental Research Center, in neighboring Anne Arundel County, has measured >14 feet of Holocene deposition (mostly organic) in a saltmarsh along the Chesapeake Bay. This rate of deposition is by no means unusual.
By the way, I'm convinced that earth is frequently (on a geologic time scale) bombarded by various metorites and cometary fragments. I just don't think such bombardment is responsible for Carolina Bays.
IOW, the bays walk, look and act like a duck to the layman(that would be me), that is, it looks for all the world like something took a swipe at the eastern seaboard(amongst other places???) at roughly the P/H boundary. If you're sayin' it ain't a duck, the arguments will necessarily have to be ironclad. Or maybe handed down from the mount. Coulda's and woulda's are great for purposes of discussion, but.....
Again, you'll forgive my skeptcism???
"....Well, not entirely. The Alaska "bays" are not nearly as uniform in shape or length/width dimensions..."
Perhaps not all of them are, but the ones I saw on that poster were very uniform, and appeared to be perfectly elliptical. I was struck by their uniformity and symmetry.
"...Seems the folks studying the Alaska bays haven't reached a conclusion yet as to what actually creates their bays either. Butt crack ice(cracking the bedrock) and thawing seems to be the most widely accepted hypothesis...."
Well, perhaps. Geologists and geomorphologists tell me that there was no permafrost, and no glacial ice, in the Carolinas and Georgia, even during the glacial maxima. It would be surprising if two wildly divergiant geomorphic mechanisms produced such similar results. I suspect that when we finally solve this puzzle, we will find tht the bays of both areas have the same, or very similar, causes.
Can't blame you for that and good luck!
However, if you are ever in my area and would like to meet me in person, I'll be glad to talk your ear off about it. :)
The offer is much appreciated, but I would run out of gas on the subject in short order. My career(s) have been in the financial and sales fields for the most part, and while I have a keen interest in past happenings on our globe, I know little about it, but I'm trying to catch up. Debating experts is good exercise for me. Thanks again for your efforts.
Now I've really got to do something about this headache.
Certainly I forgive your skepticism; you should see the arguments we soil scientists get into amongst ourselves (there's an old saying that if you put 2 soil scientists into a pit, you get 3 opinions).
Remember that pines are not climax vegetation anywhere on the coastal plain. They are colonizing species, and depend upon fire, or other disturbance, to keep out competing hardwoods. Palynological evidence shows that Oaks and Hickories were the dominant arboreal species on the coastal plain of the Carolinas during the Pleistocene, and dry, sandy uplands are climaxed by Oaks, Hickories, and Dogwood today as well. Indians burned large areas to open up the forest and improve hunting (as well as to make garden space for themselves), and pines came in. Even today, foresters have to burn areas periodically to keep them in pines.
OKG!! Mother Nature has nukes!! We're all DOOMED, DOOMED I TELL YOU!!
To avoid having to calculate the years everytime the subject comes up, I'm guessing. And to place it in a timeline.
Points taken re the forestry characteristics in your area. I suppose I would need to get with a local East Texas forestry agent to find out why things work a little differently in these "piney" woods. Not being on a coastal plain might have something to do with it, although we don't miss it by much.
Not to worry; the radiation is minimal but you'll really need to watch out for those incoming hailstones. One of those could mess up your whole day.
I have witnessed three seperate meteor events. Two were quite a ways west of me. One went right over my head. Now, when a meteor goes over your head, and lights up the sky like daylight, you take notice. The other two were equally as eventful as both were quite incredible explosions. One, off the coast of California, that I could see from Oklahoma, the other happened over New Mexico. All three were in the late 90's while I delivered newspapers at night. I heard on the news after the California meteor that it apparently woke people from sound sleep, and may have caused some electical disturbances as well.
I heard on the news after the California meteor that it apparently woke people from sound sleep, and may have caused some electical disturbances as well.
Now that's interesting. One would suspect some sort of electrical disturbances from one of these things, particularly a big one, but I've not read enough about 'em to know if there's been any research. The static discharge as these things pass through the atmosphere must be tremendous, but what about when they get near the surface??? Lightning bolts??? There may be some interesting stuff out there; I just haven't taken the time to look for it.
Thanks for stopping by and the input.
Yellowstone, another "toba"
Yes, I am very aware of that situation. In fact my father wrote an entire, very long and wordy, novel on the subject. In it he postulates a man, like himself, becoming aware of the danger, and moving operations to the Carolina's. Then it blows and a whole lot of adventures after that. Some day I may take it and rewrite it and possibly get it published. Actually, his interest was one of the things that restimulated my active interest in volcanism.
Regarding Neanderthals, there were some recent FR threads about the discovery of some N genes in the Scottish population, and perhaps other northerners. About 40% of the population, and virtually all the redheads. My husband was Scottish ancestry, very redhead and blue eyed (a positive adaptation to diminished sunshine and Vitamin D formation), heavy brow ridges, large dense bones, short legs and long torso (good for cold climates), very hairy, and warrior temperment. I always thought he might have some neanderthal ancestry, and now I am almost certain. One of our sons has his size and density, but none of his coloring. He is currently in Afghanistan. One of our sons also has the same body density, like a pit bull, if you have ever felt one. I think some Ns may have interbread with other groups moving north, as the pale coloring would have had positive survival value until the blond gene showed up which has the same Vitamin D value, enabling women to develop broad childbirth friendly pelvises.
Regarding Flores person, I think that the island must have been much larger when the ice age ended, with the water 400 feet lower than now. As melting caused the sea to rise the people and other animals were forced into a smaller and smaller area, and miniturization enabled them to survive with fewer resources. I think other large animals also miniturized. I think this happened on Malta with elephants.
In considered this possibility some years ago (large ice chunks and tsunami).
What if the tsunami banged into the scarp face and the biggest heaviest chucks stopped there as the water and bergs washed back, leaving them in decreasing size as it retreated.
"I'm convinced that the earth is frequently...bombarded by...metorites."
The book "Comet" by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan, 1997 has a lot of interesting information on the causes of boloid movement through the inner solar system, especially from the Oort Cloud.
Ah yes, it's a pleasure to e-talk with an intelligent person as it's a real bore with some of the dufusses on FR. My nephew told me about FR, and he's "lexinom". I got BIT once by a pit bulldog, came THAT CLOSE to shooting the owner. I'm scotch-welsh-irish-english-german by ancestry but my mother does have red hair. The celts were originally based in austria, known as the keltoi by the greeks, and famed for their copper working skills. Some opine that there was no inter-breeding between homo-sap and Ns, too great a genetic distance apart. Still an open question. It may be that the celts were a homo-sap/N hybrid group and we see the results today as Arnold Swartzenegger!
I thought about that, too. (By the way, if you stand in the surf on the beach, in the waves, watch as the retreating water washes around your feet. It sculpts the beach sand into a shape that looks like a carolina bay.)
In order for stranded icebergs to have been the cause of bay formation, there would have to have been many icebergs off the coast of Georgia and South Carolina. Those areas had warm currents (the Gulf Stream) even then, so icebergs would have been highly improbable. Also, during the glacial maximum, sea level was as much as 330 feet lower than it is today. A tsunami would have had to be large enough to raise the coastal water level by around 600 feet in order to reach the upper coastal plain...and it would have been along a 1000-mile stretch of coastline...I don't think there's been a tsunami like that at any time during the tertiary period.
Well, I take that back. The meteorite that hit off the coast of Virginia at the end of the Eocene might have been able to cause one that large. However, the climate was warmer then....not glacial....and sea level was much higher than it is now.
No Problem. Actually, the electical disturbances wasn't caused by the meteor traveling through the atmosphere, it was caused when the meteor exploded near the surface. The explosion was tremendous, I mean I saw it from nearly 2000 miles away, and thought I heard a crackling sound soon after. It was bright red, and aparently fairly high in the atmosphere when it happened. The one in NM was a greenish color. I asked an astronomer at our local observatory and he told me the colors represented the types of metals in the meteor. Red being iron, I think, and green being either copper or magnesium.
Very interesting reference, Ren. Could you could look it up and post the author and publication of the work (in Charlerston County, S.C) showing that "large Carolina bays overlay infilled river channels (incisions that were refilled during a marine transgression)"?
It would be great to have this information for my on-going Carolina bay study.
Am I correct that this work (paper, presentation, data?) is evidence confounding to the recent and simultaneous origin of bays as some propose. How so? If I may, what is the relevance of infilled river channels and marine transgressions?
I am not geologist but do not understand.
Perhaps reading the paper can help. Thanks to you, and FGS, for posting.
An EMP??? It certainly seems plausible. I've really got to do some looking around for more information on this stuff!
You're welcome. It is an interesting subject. The creation of the bays tends to bring out peripheral subjects also. For example, would you think an exploding comet or other intruder might produce an electrical disturbance, similar to an EMP, in the......force??? Never occurred to me before, but then I haven't really studied ET encounters that much.
I just saw a short article in a local news sheet, saying that using some old Neanderthal bones, scientists are going to try to sequence the entire N genome. Do you think I should post the article as a thread?