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We’re Losing World War IV ... How to get back to the road to victory.
National Review ^ | August 4, 2006 | By Barbara Lerner

Posted on 08/04/2006 7:47:46 AM PDT by aculeus

The Shiite mullahs who rule Iran and have seized the leadership of the Islamofascist war against us are as dangerous an enemy as America has ever faced. [snip]

In the 1980s, Iran’s mullahs created Hezbollah, a Shiite Arab terrorist group in Lebanon, and used it to drive us from that country the way they drove us from Iran, but this time, they didn’t just humiliate us and mock our impotence; they tortured and murdered our embassy people in Beirut, and blew up 241 of our marines.

[snip]

We should not wait, passively, for the Iranians to unveil their surprise. We should light up the skies with our own surprise: a massive aerial bombardment that wipes out most of Iran’s nuclear facilities, and decimates the ranks of its mullahs as well as those of the Revolutionary Guard and Basij forces that keep them in power ... Retired air force Lt. General Tom McInerney already has a plan to wipe out most of Iran’s nuclear facilities from the air. As I’ve argued, we should augment it with additional targets and let fly, as soon as possible, with no forewarning, for maximum effect. Lt. Col. Gordon Cucullu, one of the few who argues in public for a similarly bold course sums it up this way:

By waiting for a first strike we are put in a position of playing a retaliation game after we have already endured unacceptable losses in population and perception. Once America and Israel are seen as weak enough to defeat, then the international jackals will all join in for the kill. This is what our enemies hope to accomplish…We face a crisis of major proportions. Hesitation may be fatal.

He’s right. The time to act is now.

(Excerpt) Read more at article.nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Editorial; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 2006israelwar; gwot; hezbollah; iran; israel; waronterror; wot; wwiv
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1 posted on 08/04/2006 7:47:47 AM PDT by aculeus
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To: aculeus

My, Barbara seems to have her nickers in a twist.

Now were in WWIV? Just last week we had WWIII. She wants to bomb it seems, everyone, everywhere.


2 posted on 08/04/2006 7:49:48 AM PDT by edcoil (Reality doesn't say much - doesn't need too)
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To: edcoil

And what do you suggest, talking the Mullahs to death?

The UN is not getting anywhere -- these are not people where diplomacy can work.

Or should we wait until Iran nukes Israel?


3 posted on 08/04/2006 7:52:17 AM PDT by FairOpinion (Dem Foreign Policy: SURRENDER to our enemies. Real conservatives don't help Dems get elected.)
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To: edcoil

And what do you suggest, talking the Mullahs to death?

The UN is not getting anywhere -- these are not people where diplomacy can work.

Or should we wait until Iran nukes Israel?


4 posted on 08/04/2006 7:52:27 AM PDT by FairOpinion (Dem Foreign Policy: SURRENDER to our enemies. Real conservatives don't help Dems get elected.)
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To: aculeus

Not since 1938... has the danger been so clear... and the response so inadequate.


5 posted on 08/04/2006 7:52:59 AM PDT by johnny7 (“And what's Fonzie like? Come on Yolanda... what's Fonzie like?!”)
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To: edcoil

Actually, I hope more people recognize that WW III - the Cold War - was fought and won by America. We lost the Battle of Vietnam in that one but won the war.


6 posted on 08/04/2006 7:55:22 AM PDT by NonValueAdded (Tom Gallagher, the anti-Crist)
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To: aculeus

Absurd hysterics by the Rabid Know Nothings. Counter Insurgency is NOT Total War. Way past time the Arm Chair Pattons tone done their Drama Queen Hysterics and get a grip on reality.


7 posted on 08/04/2006 8:02:31 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (Fire Murtha Now! Spread the word. Support Diana Irey. http://www.irey.com/)
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To: FairOpinion

>>>Or should we wait until Iran nukes Israel?

JMO, I don't think they will. Not that the Mullah's aren't mad enough to do it. I think whoever is holding their leash will keep them from doing it.

Bush said something once and I'm paraphrasing.

If someone launches a nuke, we would bomb whomever created the material.

If we do a preemptive strike, the politics on it can be spun. If Iran does a preemptive strike, it will be all out there for all to see everyone that had their hands involved.

Relevant:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1677105/posts?page=9#9
Iranian Source: North Korean 'Experts' Helped Hizballah Build Tunnel Network
Correction: Correcting source date -- Report by Ali Nuri Zadah: "Iranian Officer: Hizballah Has Naval Commandos Unit"
Al-Sharq al-Awsat (Internet Version-WWW)
Wednesday, August 2, 2006


8 posted on 08/04/2006 8:02:36 AM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: edcoil
She wants to bomb it seems, everyone, everywhere.

Not everyone, everywhere ... just the jackals

Take a peek over here, enlighten yourself

Victor David Hanson: The Brink of Madness

9 posted on 08/04/2006 8:03:41 AM PDT by tx_eggman (Islamofascism ... bringing you the best of the 7th century for the past 1300 years.)
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To: NonValueAdded; edcoil
This is WWIII and it started 911.

Cold War is not WWIII and that sort of navel gazing self mythologizing simply detracts.

10 posted on 08/04/2006 8:07:09 AM PDT by tallhappy (Juntos Podemos!)
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To: tallhappy
If this is World War III (or IV), it began long before 9/11. In fact, it has its roots way back in the post-colonial era that began after World War II.

The dispute between the U.S. and Iran dates way back to 1953, when the Eisenhower administration supported a British effort to topple the duly-elected government of Mohammed Mossadegh and install the Shah as the head of state.

11 posted on 08/04/2006 8:13:09 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: aculeus
A formal declaration of war against Iran, Iraq, Hezzbollah, Hamas, and Al Queda is LONG overdue. Declare war against these entities. Let the president pursue the war as he see fit. USE EVERY WEAPON IN THE ARSENAL TO WIN THE WAR. Win the war and be done with it.

Once these countries and their surrogates have been dealt with, settle North Korea's hash.

12 posted on 08/04/2006 8:14:02 AM PDT by Former Proud Canadian (How do I change my screen name after Harper's election?)
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To: edcoil
Now were in WWIV? Just last week we had WWIII.

The folks trying to dub this one III slept though the 50's, 60', and 70's. We lost almost 100,000 KIA in III.

13 posted on 08/04/2006 8:15:32 AM PDT by ASA Vet (3.03)
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To: Alberta's Child

Nice left wing analysis on your part.


14 posted on 08/04/2006 8:16:05 AM PDT by tallhappy (Juntos Podemos!)
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To: Alberta's Child
1953, when the Eisenhower administration supported a British effort to topple the duly-elected government of Mohammed Mossadegh and install the Shah as the head of state.

The Shah was already head of state. Mossadegh, until losing out in the competitive coup business, was head of government.

The 1953 events are much more complicated than just the evil Americans removing a democratic leader. There was plenty of indigenous opposition to the guy.

15 posted on 08/04/2006 8:18:04 AM PDT by Restorer
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To: aculeus

we keep waiting for the mad-mullahs of Iran to fall from inside in an internal reaction or counter-revolution. i am starting to think that this too is propaganda.


16 posted on 08/04/2006 8:18:57 AM PDT by APRPEH (You and I have a rendezvous with destiny.)
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To: aculeus
This poor lady is hyperventilating. WWIII (or IV) hasn't started yet. We're still in the equivalent of the late 30s, with the various crises in the Rhineland, Czechoslovakia, Austria, etc.

We don't want to fight a war, so we keep hoping it will go away if we refuse to recognize that it's approaching.

Luckily the jihadists pose no real threat to America as a nation. They do not have and will not develop the ability to defeat us.

Hitler, OTOH, came very close to winning his war, which could probably have resulted int the eventual conquest of the US.

17 posted on 08/04/2006 8:22:00 AM PDT by Restorer
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To: MNJohnnie
Counter Insurgency is NOT Total War

May I suggest that we look at the big picture, not just what is going on in Iraq, but what the people in the Islamic countries are doing? Every day they are engaged in spreading propaganda; supplying arms, intelligence, & funds to terrorist groups; demanding that Muslims in Western countries be accorded special status; encouraging non-assimilation, conversion, and growth of their own numbers; and very intent on acquiring nuclear weapons of their own. They are engaged in total war against us; it behooves us to take them seriously. They want to destroy us & they think they have a strategy that will work.

It's past time to cut this Gordian knot & go after Iran.

18 posted on 08/04/2006 8:25:01 AM PDT by Tancred
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To: Restorer
This poor lady is hyperventilating

Should she be told to keep clam?

19 posted on 08/04/2006 8:25:20 AM PDT by ASA Vet (3.03)
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To: Restorer
Relevant:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1677031/posts
The New Left, Cultural Marxism, and Psychopolitics Disguised as Multiculturalism

Also relevant:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1676159/posts
The Syrian-Iraqi Baath party and its Nazi beginnings

Excerpt:

In Arabic, baath means renaissance or resurrection. The Baath Arab Socialist Party, to give the organisation its formal title, is the original secular Arab nationalist movement, founded in Damascus in the 1940s to combat Western colonial rule.

(snip)

>>>>But the rise of German fascism also played a role. Many in the Arab world saw Hitler as an ally.

Where was Hitler from?


The Victory of Socialism in the Soviet Union (1925-1941 )

On April 28, 1945, Hitler married Braun and wouldn't/couldn't produce Aryanian Citizenship papers.

He supposedly died on April 30, 1945. Was his death/disappearance because he couldn't produce papers?

Hitler's Islamic name was Abu Ali


20 posted on 08/04/2006 8:27:43 AM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: edcoil
Now were in WWIV? Just last week we had WWIII.

That is what I was wondering.

I need to pay more attention.

Seems I missed an entire World War.

I'll have to ponder that this weekend.

21 posted on 08/04/2006 8:45:11 AM PDT by LasVegasMac (Islam........not fit for human consumption.)
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To: tallhappy
Here's a "right-wing" analysis for you.

When the Islamic fundamentalists overthrew the Shah's government in 1979, the U.S. embassy was the second building they sacked in Tehran. Kudos to anyone here who can tell me the first one.

22 posted on 08/04/2006 8:45:29 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: Restorer
The 1953 events are much more complicated than just the evil Americans removing a democratic leader. There was plenty of indigenous opposition to the guy.

Understood. That doesn't mean there was any compelling reason for the U.S. to get involved.

23 posted on 08/04/2006 8:46:24 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: Restorer
Hitler, OTOH, came very close to winning his war, which could probably have resulted int the eventual conquest of the US.

Sure. Hitler wasn't even capable of conquering Great Britain, so the notion that Germany -- with no naval assets capable of projecting any substantial force across an ocean -- could have conquered the U.S. is a bit silly.

24 posted on 08/04/2006 8:48:38 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: aculeus

Who is Barbara Lerner?


25 posted on 08/04/2006 8:48:42 AM PDT by Mamzelle (in vino, veritas)
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To: edcoil

Very well put!


26 posted on 08/04/2006 8:49:07 AM PDT by Valin (http://www.irey.com/)
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To: edcoil

Now were in WWIV? Just last week we had WWIII. She wants to bomb it seems, everyone, everywhere.

WWIV, WWV, whatever it takes!


27 posted on 08/04/2006 8:50:08 AM PDT by WhiteGuy (It's about the People Who Count the Votes................. - Wally O'Dell)
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To: edcoil
My, Barbara seems to have her nickers in a twist.

Really? It is a matter of interpretation if this is WWIV or WWIII, but we are in it. Ever watch the goose stepping army of Iran? How about the Islamofascist that have been placed in almost every Country of the world? Or have we forgot what the damage one Islamofascist can do? The real lesson is being played out in Iraq and the current Israel/Lebanon.

28 posted on 08/04/2006 8:54:05 AM PDT by Logical me (Oh, well!!!)
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To: FairOpinion

Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife
Counterinsurgency Lessons from Malaya and Vietnam
John A. Nagl

http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/567702.html


Preface to the Paperback Edition
Spilling Soup on Myself
Authors generally learn something about their subject matter, and then write about it. I took the opposite approach. Eight years after beginning my research into counterinsurgency and a year almost to the day after the publication of the first edition of this book, I deployed to Iraq to practice counterinsurgency as the Operations Officer of the First Battalion of the 34th Armored Regiment, the “Centurions.” From September 24, 2003, through September 10, 2004, I was privileged to serve as Centurion 3 in Khalidiyah, a town of some 30,000 between Fallujah and Ramadi in the Sunni Triangle.

The experience was searing. The Task Force was built around a tank battalion that had been designed, organized, trained, and equipped for conventional combat operations. The enemy we confronted was implacable, ruthless, and all too often invisible. Our yearlong confrontation in Al Anbar Province was bloody and difficult for the insurgents, for our soldiers, and for the population of the region. It was without a doubt the most intense learning period of my life.

The experience of fighting insurgents in Iraq made me think again about the views expressed in this book—assessments of the British army in Malaya and, especially, of the American army in Vietnam. Rereading my work now, I am surprised by how much I was able to understand of counterinsurgency before practicing it myself and simultaneously appalled at some of my presumptions and errors. In the few pages of this preface I hope to point out omissions and missteps from that first edition, written before my own physical immersion in counterinsurgency, while highlighting some of the things I feel I got right the first time. It is my sincere hope that the book may be of use to those attempting to make our armed forces more effective in what promises to be a long struggle against enemies who fight freedom with the ancient art of insurgency.

Learning to Eat Soup with a Knife
T. E. Lawrence’s aphorism that “Making war upon insurgents is messy and slow, like eating soup with a knife” is difficult to fully appreciate until you have done it. Intellectually grasping the concept that fighting insurgents is messy and slow is a different thing from knowing how to defeat them; knowing how to win, in turn, is a different thing from implementing the measures required to do it.

This is perhaps the most basic flaw in the book that follows. There is something of a blithe sense that defeating the Communist insurgents in Malaya was easy once Sir Gerald Templer and Harold Briggs showed the British army what to do, and that the American army could similarly have won in Vietnam if only it had adopted earlier the changes promulgated by Creighton Abrams and Bob Komer. The truth is rather more complex. Changing an army is an extraordinarily challenging undertaking. Britain was able to adapt to defeat the insurgency in Malaya for many reasons, but those reasons certainly included the British army’s comparatively small size and its organizational culture that had been honed in a number of small wars fought over generations. Changing the American army is a task of an entirely different scale, a challenge that the organization struggled with during the Vietnam War.

The army’s adaptations in Vietnam were ultimately too little too late to defeat the insurgency there. By contrast, the army has adapted much more rapidly to the challenge of insurgency in Iraq. My own personal experience is illustrative of the larger challenge and response. Task Force 1-34 Armor was preparing for high-intensity combined arms warfare in July of 2003 when it was notified that it would deploy to Iraq; by September, two of its three tank companies were conducting combat operations in the Sunni Triangle mounted on Humvees and dismounting to fight as dragoons, with just one company fighting from M1A1s. In the intervening sixty days, the battalion had been issued new weapons systems and vehicles ranging from machine guns to up-armored Humvees. It reorganized its combat vehicle crews and maintenance teams, designed and implemented counterinsurgency training, and deployed halfway around the world to fight a kind of war that, if not new, was new to the soldiers of Task Force 1-34 Armor.

Difficult as these transformations were, the combat soldiers of the Task Force in some ways had an easier time adapting than the staff. The essence of the line soldiers’ mission remained closing with and destroying the enemy. Their additional tasks of supporting the local government and winning the trust of the local people were subordinate to and in some ways a natural outgrowth of their ability to provide security. The battalion staff had to change its entire approach to combat, shifting its focus from battle-tracking enemy tank platoons and infantry squads who fought in plain sight to identifying and locating an insurgent enemy who hid in plain sight. This much more difficult change demanded an entirely different way of thinking about combat—a different level of professional knowledge about a different kind of war. The enemy we faced could only be defeated if we knew both his name and his address—and, often, the addresses of his extended family as well. Understanding tribal loyalties, political motivations, and family relationships was essential to defeating the enemy we faced, a task more akin to breaking up a Mafia crime ring than dismantling a conventional enemy battalion or brigade. “Link diagrams” depicting who talked with whom became a daily chore for a small intelligence staff more used to analyzing the ranges of enemy artillery systems.

The book that follows pays ritual obeisance to the importance of intelligence in counterinsurgency operations, and to the canard that “To defeat an insurgency you have to know who the insurgents are—and to find that out, you have to win and keep the support of the people.” All true, truer than I knew at the time I wrote it. But the task of winning and keeping the support of the population is far more complex than I had understood. In the following pages, I note that the British did a better job of gaining the trust of the Malay population, but I don’t properly emphasize that when the insurgency began they had been in the country for well over a century, developing long-term relationships and cultural awareness that bore fruit in actionable intelligence.

The United States is working diligently in Iraq, as it did in Vietnam, to improve the lives of the people. Dollars are bullets in this fight; the Commander’s Emergency Response Program (CERP), which provides field commanders funds to perform essential projects, wins hearts and minds twice over—once by repairing infrastructure, and again by employing local citizens who are otherwise ready recruits for the insurgents. CERP is helping with the painstaking process of building relationships with the Iraqi people, resulting in some intelligence from those we help—but not enough, not yet.

One of the most frustrating aspects of the war on the ground in Iraq is responding to the scene of an attack, whether on U.S. or Iraqi security forces, with the sure knowledge that at least some of the bystanders have critical information on those responsible, but being unable to obtain that information from them. The people know the insurgents; they are often tied to them through blood or marriage or long association. The combination of these bonds and the likelihood that they will be killed in the night if they are seen talking to security forces in the day all too often intimidates those who genuinely want peace in Iraq, but see no way to achieve it at a bearable personal cost. Winning the Iraqi people’s willingness to turn in their terrorist neighbors will mark the tipping point in defeating the insurgency. Those who contend that “American forces have lost the support of the Iraqi population and probably cannot regain it” are incorrect; in fact, the majority of the Iraqi population prefers the American vision of a democratic and free Iraq to the Salafist version of Iraq as Islamic theocracy. The key challenge is empowering the intimidated majority to enable Iraqi and American security forces to eliminate the criminal insurgents.

The Irreplaceable Role of Local Forces
When I wrote this book, I underestimated the challenge of adapting an army for the purposes of defeating an insurgency while simultaneously maintaining the army’s ability to fight a conventional war. I also understated the importance of local forces in defeating an insurgency and the difficulty of raising, training, and equipping them. Creating reliable, dedicated local forces during the course of an insurgency that targets not just the local soldiers and police but also their families truly is a task as difficult as “eating soup with a knife.”

Local forces have inherent advantages over outsiders in a counterinsurgency campaign. They can gain intelligence through the public support that naturally adheres to a nation’s own armed forces. They don’t need to allocate translators to combat patrols. They understand the tribal loyalties and family relationships that play such an important role in the politics and economies of many developing nations. They have an innate understanding of local patterns of behavior that is simply unattainable by foreigners. All these advantages make local forces enormously effective counterinsurgents. It is perhaps only a slight exaggeration to suggest that, on their own, foreign forces cannot defeat an insurgency; the best they can hope for is to create the conditions that will enable local forces to win it for them.

In their turn, however, foreign forces have much to offer local forces battling an insurgency. Western armies bring communications packages, training advantages, artillery and close air support, medical evacuation, and Quick Reaction Forces that together contribute dramatically to the confidence, morale, and effectiveness of the local forces, especially when trainers are embedded with the locals.

The fact that the insurgents often attack local forces suggests that they realize how essential those forces are. Task Force 1-34 Armor worked diligently to mentor the local police force and two battalions of the Iraqi National Guard during its year in Khalidiyah. Recruiting, organizing, training, equipping, and employing these forces often appeared to be an uphill fight, as the Iraqi leadership both wanted and resented American leadership and logistical and financial support. Building trust through joint operations and shared risks ultimately resulted in some intelligence sharing, but the task of creating reliable forces that could independently guarantee local security was incomplete when the Task Force passed responsibility for these units to its follow-on force, the Currahees of Task Force 1-506 Infantry. The effort to raise, train, and equip these forces is likely to take much time and energy, but it could not be more important. The British forces in Malaya had earlier and better success with this process than did the Americans in Vietnam, with the possible exception of the Marines’ Combined Action Platoon program in I Corps. Some of the lessons of the British and Marine experiences may be of use today as the United States increasingly turns its attention to the task of creating Iraqi security forces that can defend Iraq against both internal and external threats. Their success is the key to unlocking victory in Iraq—victory for, and by, the Iraqis.

Innovation under Fire
This book suggests that tactical leaders in the field can spur innovation that, when accepted by higher commanders, dramatically reshapes an army in combat. The experience of the U.S. Army in Iraq certainly supports that contention. Tank battalions, which just weeks previously had been required to execute missions no more politically complicated than “Attack” and “Defend,” learned while in combat how to conduct Area Denial operations and Special Forces–style raids even as their battalion leadership conducted political negotiations with local leaders and trained and equipped Iraqi police and National Guard forces. Task Force 1-34 Armor learned to integrate Civil Affairs, Psychological Operations, and Counterintelligence Teams into its daily counterinsurgency operations. Linking up in theater and inventing doctrine on the run, these Counterinsurgency Teams were essential to the success of the battalion in winning the hearts and minds of the good guys—and of uncovering, capturing, and killing the bad ones.

The United States Army has taken remarkable strides to adapt to the demands of counterinsurgency in Iraq in a process it calls the “Modular Army.” Stepping away from the 15,000-soldier division as the center of gravity of the army, this program creates more nimble 4000-soldier Units of Action able to operate independently over a wide area. The army is also taking steps to increase the numbers of soldiers with much-needed special skills including the counterintelligence and civil affairs soldiers that Task Force 1-34 Armor put to such good use in Khalidiyah. Programs to recruit additional Arabic speakers are underway in both the Active Army and in the National Guard, adding another essential weapon to the counterinsurgency capability of the nation. Much more remains to be done as the army creates a force capable of the cultural and linguistic sophistication necessary to defeat a very capable enemy.

Winning the Long War: The Integration of National Power
The army is adapting to the demands of counterinsurgency in Iraq at many levels, from the tactical and operational through the training base in the United States. However, Iraq is but one front in a broader war against Salafist extremists dedicated to eliminating Western influence from the Islamic world; winning the struggle may take decades. There is a growing realization that the most likely conflicts of the next fifty years will be irregular warfare in an “Arc of Instability” that encompasses much of the greater Middle East and parts of Africa and Central and South Asia. To cope more effectively with the messy reality that in the twenty-first century many of our enemies will be insurgents, America’s armed forces must continue to change.

The 2005 Quadrennial Defense Review specifically evaluates the ability of the Department of Defense to prevail in irregular warfare. However, the fight to create a secure, democratic Iraq that does not provide a safe haven for terror is not primarily a military task. Counterinsurgency requires the integration of all elements of national power—diplomacy, information operations, intelligence, financial, and military—to achieve the predominantly political objectives of establishing a stable national government that can secure itself against internal and external threats. Britain was able to employ all of these elements of power remarkably well in Malaya; the process of integration took the United States longer in Vietnam.

Final victory in today’s fight depends upon the integration of the nations in the Arc of Instability into the globalized world’s economic and political system. The army is working hard to adapt to the challenge of the global insurgency. The other departments of the federal government, and governments throughout the entire world, are steeling themselves for a protracted struggle. They also must adapt themselves to prevail in this fight, creating an operational capability to influence the actions of other nations and of subnational groups in the Arc of Instability.

Much of the burden of that struggle will continue to be borne by the young men and women of the American armed services and by their local force comrades in arms. It was truly an honor and an inspiration to serve in Iraq with some of the finest soldiers our country has ever produced. Their spirit of selfless service and determination to fight so that others can live in freedom should humble all of us. It is to them that I dedicate this edition.




Also
Learning to eat soup with a knife (Counter-Terror)
The Australian ^ | 3/29/06 | Tom Baldwin

http://freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1606828/posts
Posted on 03/31/2006 9:39:40 AM CST by Valin


29 posted on 08/04/2006 8:57:36 AM PDT by Valin (http://www.irey.com/)
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To: Mamzelle

John Galt's sister?


30 posted on 08/04/2006 8:58:33 AM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: aculeus

Can we finish losing WW III before we start WW IV? These WWs are expensive win or lose.


31 posted on 08/04/2006 8:58:53 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: MNJohnnie
Way past time the Arm Chair Pattons tone done their Drama Queen Hysterics and get a grip on reality.

Tell that to the Europeans in the late 1930s. Same thing is going on now. Instead of the Nazis arming while the world snoozed, we now have Iran arming themselves with nuclear weapons while the world snoozes.

It will be much worse this time - the Nazis didn't have the capability of taking out NY and DC in a split second. Iran will.

32 posted on 08/04/2006 8:59:38 AM PDT by Tokra (I think I'll retire to Bedlam.)
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To: tallhappy; Alberta's Child

Nice left wing analysis on your part.


How so?


33 posted on 08/04/2006 8:59:38 AM PDT by Valin (http://www.irey.com/)
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To: Alberta's Child
When the Islamic fundamentalists overthrew the Shah's government in 1979, the U.S. embassy was the second building they sacked in Tehran. Kudos to anyone here who can tell me the first one.

Easy. The seat of decadent Western civilization in Tehran: Kentucky Fried Chicken.

34 posted on 08/04/2006 9:03:20 AM PDT by RedQuill
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To: Calpernia
If Iran does a preemptive strike, it will be all out there for all to see everyone that had their hands involved.

Well, actually it was all out there for the world to see that Hezbollah attacked Israel first, but world opinion still turned against Israel.

Believe me, even if Iran nuked Israel or the United States, the euroweenies would be out there screaming that the great satan provoked them.

I don't think it's a good idea to let your safety or your family's safety depend on what others may think of your actions. If someone is threatening you and you wait for him to throw the first punch, you may never be able to recover.

35 posted on 08/04/2006 9:07:35 AM PDT by Attillathehon
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To: aculeus

It all boils down to the price you want to pay. Launch a strike against Iran and oil goes away so the price is going to go up. Iran can probably still do signficant damage during the attack against the Straits of Hormuz and other oil facilities in the region. Or it could stoke a general uprising against the Ayatollahs. I think Israel would use nukes, why would they have them otherwise. The Islamists don't seem to care about MAD.


36 posted on 08/04/2006 9:07:59 AM PDT by andre573
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To: ASA Vet
Yes you are right, the "Cold WAR" was a long tough fought World War III, that lasted from 1947 to 1989. More than 100,000 Americans died in many world theaters battling the Soviet Empire. We where very lucky that World War III was only a cold one.
37 posted on 08/04/2006 9:11:06 AM PDT by 2001convSVT ("People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence")
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To: Attillathehon

>>>I don't think it's a good idea to let your safety or your family's safety depend on what others may think of your actions. If someone is threatening you and you wait for him to throw the first punch, you may never be able to recover.

And yet Hillary is your senator?


38 posted on 08/04/2006 9:14:29 AM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: Calpernia
Hitler married Braun and wouldn't/couldn't produce Aryanian Citizenship papers.

Hitler was part Jewish

39 posted on 08/04/2006 9:17:16 AM PDT by fso301
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To: aculeus

I second the motion of obliterating Iran's nuke threat before they blow us to smitherines.

Somebody give dubya a nudge. Iran is hellbent on annilhilating America and Israel.


40 posted on 08/04/2006 9:18:03 AM PDT by takenoprisoner (Could mecca be Satan's' throne?)
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To: fso301

Does that mean he wouldn't have had Aryan Citizenship papers?


41 posted on 08/04/2006 9:22:43 AM PDT by Calpernia (Breederville.com)
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To: 2001convSVT
(As I've said before) Way too many people here think WWII when looking at this war, when (IMO) they should be thinking Cold War, in terms of how long we're looking at. This is a guerrilla war on a world wide scale.. That means you fight it differently than a conventional war.
42 posted on 08/04/2006 9:26:01 AM PDT by Valin (http://www.irey.com/)
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To: RedQuill

Well, thanks for trying . . . but that's the wrong answer.


43 posted on 08/04/2006 9:34:32 AM PDT by Alberta's Child (Can money pay for all the days I lived awake but half asleep?)
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To: LasVegasMac

I understand Jack Daniels and his friends are good at keeping those whom ponder - good company 8-)


44 posted on 08/04/2006 9:35:08 AM PDT by edcoil (Reality doesn't say much - doesn't need too)
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To: aculeus
When in doubt, bomb.


BUMP

45 posted on 08/04/2006 9:40:20 AM PDT by capitalist229 (Get Democrats out of our pockets and Republicans out of our bedrooms.)
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To: MNJohnnie
This is NOT counter insurgency. This is crushing the "Islamic Republic of Iran", and it needs to be done now.
46 posted on 08/04/2006 9:48:17 AM PDT by gafusa
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To: tx_eggman

You beat me to it. One of VDH's best.


47 posted on 08/04/2006 9:53:06 AM PDT by John Valentine
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To: Tokra
It will be much worse this time - the Nazis didn't have the capability of taking out NY and DC in a split second. Iran will.

They may already have.

In any case, the 12thers have an apocalyptic world view that inclines them to armageddon. The are quite forthright about it.

Anyone who simply shrugs this off simply is leaving in a concocted liberal la-la land.

Some may say that we can't engage in preemptive war. There is nothing pre-emptive about this. We are NOW engaged in a war that we are fighting as if we might babel to win a partial victory. In this war, victory has to be total.

We CAN'T let Iran get nukes. Can't.

Period.

48 posted on 08/04/2006 9:59:24 AM PDT by John Valentine
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To: andre573

Yes, but it can be done. Sure it will be ugly. And no more of this limited war BS. We have to slaughter the Iranian government and armed forces entirely. We need 100,000s of military and government deaths. Leave no government facility, down to the smallest office standing, unless they give a unconditional surrender first. Ugly but war always is. The price of oil is nothing compared to the alternative. The idea is for Iran to nuke us and Israel, and while we are in confusion, Chinese and Islamic agents will launch all sorts of terrorist and other unconventional attacks across the US, throwing us into further confusion. Then all our enemies, China, Russia, Syria, Venezuela, North Korea, Cuba, (Iran is nuclear waste at this point, but the Chinese and Russians do not care) will attack us and our interests from all sides. We may lose. This is life or death.


49 posted on 08/04/2006 10:00:40 AM PDT by gafusa
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To: fso301
Hitler was part Jewish

Not to mention he was also gay.

50 posted on 08/04/2006 10:01:07 AM PDT by Alouette (Psalms of the Day: 55-59)
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