Skip to comments.Beretta Backers Beat Down the .45 Revival
Posted on 09/25/2006 10:46:11 AM PDT by kiriath_jearim
September 24, 2006: Earlier this year, the U.S. Department of Defense began a search for a new .45 caliber combat pistol. Now that search has been mysteriously called off. The Department of Defense has announced, without any explanation, that is no longer looking for a new combat pistol.
Last January, after two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense appeared to be getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm, as well as reliability problems with the Beretta. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as "official alternatives" to the M9 Beretta.
Back in January, SOCOM was given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs were to be evaluated, but all had to be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 was also to have a rail up top for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length was to be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.
The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense planned to buy 645,000 JCPs. But now, the troops are being told to keep their 9mm Berettas, and all the complaints they have about those weapons.
I give you the winner.....
Didn't "M" admonish James Bond for carrying a Beretta because it lacked stopping power?
Years ago, I fired a .45 auto Colt. Holy smokes, sounded and felt like a cannon going off!
I guess no Sig Sauer P226 pistols for all. Oh wait, that's not American made... the Mark 23?
Sooo...did they stop the new pistol...or not? It's unclear.
I still hear it may well be the new H&K USP variant that sort of looks like a futuristic 1911. John Farnam, however, predicts it will be a Glock...which would suit me fine.
Wasn't Bond's Beretta a .25? Pretty wimpy caliber.
who were the 45 cal contenders?
Is this a common ammo issue? One world one calibur?
The Beretta he was admonished for carrying was a .25 cal ... and he replaced it with the more powerful (!) .380 cal Walther ...
The Glock, Sig Sauer P-220, and the HK USP I believe.
And there are glocks out there with external safeties. Iv'e seen photos of them.
I thought is was a Walther PPK 9mm kurz (.380).
No, I believe it was the Walther PPK (8mm).
I am in the business and this is news to me. My understanding is both SOCOM and Big Army are in the process of selecting a .45 pistol to replace the 9mm. The article is a little light on facts. There is no doubt concerning the stopping power of a .45, just ask a Moro insurgent, ditto, Jap, German, Korean, and Vietnamese. I would like to know if the ammo stockpiles of 9mm have anything to do with it?
The big problem is ammo. Nine Milimeter ball ammo is a notoriously poor one shot stopper. The 45 acp ball ammo is much better.
It was a 32acp model PPK
I went on record criticizing the .380 as a defense round on another thread the other day. The responses were interesting. Some agreed, one disagreed.
Just bought me a P45 Kahr 6+1, single stack magazine 4 inch barrel semi-automatic, double action only. Weighs 20 ounces. Put 100 rounds of .45 ball through it this past Saturday. Worked great, no mis-feeds, and once I got used to the trigger, was able to keep them in a four inch bull at 15 to 20 yards. .45 Cal is a good round.
As an aside, the Coast Guard appears to be changing from 9mm to 40 S&W.
Still my favorite handgun, and the one I plan to carry someday. (No stopping-power lectures, please).
"Didn't "M" admonish James Bond for carrying a Beretta because it lacked stopping power?"
Yes. M's assistant from Q branch said the department viewed 007's .25 cal. pistol as a "ladies' gun, sir".
A small handgun is much better than no handgun at all and just some harsh words.
I am wondering if this is a cost per bullet issue?
How many types of bullets does the military use? (I remember a history chanel special showing how the japanese during WWII were crippled by their wide variety of bullet needs)
Not to mention that the clip keeps falling out too.
Time to un-pimp your gun, sir. LOL
Dust off the ol'e 10mm and be done with the arguments.
Gunfighting rule #23 "Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun whose caliber does not start with a '4.'"
I think it has to do with incidents of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan shooting bad guys with their berettas, loaded with pathetic 9mm full metal jacket ball ammunition, and having to follow up with five and six extra shots to make the bad guy dead.
I own a couple... better than a .25 and about the same knockdown as a .38 Special. It is a backup caliber, but 007 was superhuman, so he didn't need more firepower! ;-)
Naw..its a one-shot stopper issue.
I hope ypou are right. Replacing the .45 ACP with the 9mm was fixing a problem that didn't exist. My son has friends in Marine Force Recon. They have a smorgasbord of weapons to select and train with and carry into harm's way. None carry a 9mm.
Yep, the SIG-226 in 40 caliber with the DAK trigger.
Breaking that rule did not hurt James Butler Hickock, but sitting at the wrong place on the card table did.
ping for a Glock statement. Is this true? After market addition?
In 1898 the U.S Armed Forces carried .38 revolver .38 caliber is .357 9 mm is .355 During the Spanish-American war the .38 caliber proved insufficient to stop Islamic terrorists in the Philippines .45 caliber ACP was chosen, Browning designed a sidearm to stop Islamic Terrorists. It seems that DoD has forgotten one hundred years of history. The 1911 pistol may be 100 years old, but stopping Islamic Terrorists has remained the same. OBTW; Think of this question : is Islamic Terrorist redundant ?
Does no one remember September 11, 2001 when America was attacked by Islamic terrorists?
In 1898 the U.S Armed Forces carried .38 revolver
.38 caliber is .357
9 mm is .355
During the Spanish-American war the .38 caliber proved insufficient to stop Islamic terrorists in the Philippines
.45 caliber ACP was chosen, Browning designed a sidearm to stop Islamic Terrorists.
It seems that DoD has forgotten one hundred years of history.
The 1911 pistol may be 100 years old, but stopping Islamic Terrorists has remained the same.
OBTW; Think of this question : is Islamic Terrorist redundant ?
The Mark 23 is by Heckler&Koch, not US either.
Yes. There have, from time to time, been Communist terrorists, National Socialist terrorists, and various terrorists involved with nationalist movements that are/were not particularly ideological.
I guess I should say "No, it's not redundant. There have been &c"
I feel the same way. Very recently I was told that various .45's were being tested. Glocks were one of the pistols being tested. I will be very surprised if this turns out to be the final word on this issue.
I am very aware of why the services decided to go back to the .45, my question is if this story has any real legs. To date I have not heard anything but full speed ahead with the Big Army .45 buy and small hiccup with SOCOM buy. Difference between the two the need or no need for an external safety. This article alleges that both programs have been stopped.
My .45cal Kimber, every time...
Wait till you see the SCAR.
Why ? Because 9mm bursts have more punch than a single 45 round.
Yer' kidding. I'm no recoil junky, but a .45 ACP just doesn't kick that much to me. .45 Long Colt, now that's a horse of a different aphorism.
I grew up shooting a .357, my favorite "carry" pistol is a Witness 10mm. My Taurus 92AF 9mm is a pussy cat by comparison.
I tend to feel the same thing, that Special Ops will decide on their own and handle their own purchasing.
I tried one of the Kahr P45s and was very impressed. Glad to hear about your range report. Kahr IIRC likes you to run several hundred rounds through their guns to insure reliability prior to CCW carry. It's a strong contender for my carry piece.
ping for a Glock statement. Is this true? After market addition?
It would have to be after market and the smith would have to be an idiot.
Sure you're not thinking of the full-auto Glock 18, with its slide-mounted selector?