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Beretta Backers Beat Down the .45 Revival
Strategy Page ^ | 9/25/06 | n/a

Posted on 09/25/2006 10:46:11 AM PDT by kiriath_jearim

September 24, 2006: Earlier this year, the U.S. Department of Defense began a search for a new .45 caliber combat pistol. Now that search has been mysteriously called off. The Department of Defense has announced, without any explanation, that is no longer looking for a new combat pistol.

Last January, after two decades of use, the U.S. Department of Defense appeared to be getting rid of its Beretta M9 9mm pistol, and going back to the 11.4mm (.45 caliber) weapon. There have been constant complaints about the lesser (compared to the .45) hitting power of the 9mm, as well as reliability problems with the Beretta. And in the last few years, SOCOM (Special Operations Command) and the marines have officially adopted .45 caliber pistols as "official alternatives" to the M9 Beretta.

Back in January, SOCOM was given the task of finding a design that will be suitable as the JCP (Joint Combat Pistol). Various designs were to be evaluated, but all had to be .45 caliber and have a eight round magazine (at least), and high capacity mags holding up to 15. The new .45 was also to have a rail up top for attachments, and be able to take a silencer. Length was to be no more than 9.65 inches, and width no more than 1.53 inches.

The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense planned to buy 645,000 JCPs. But now, the troops are being told to keep their 9mm Berettas, and all the complaints they have about those weapons.



TOPICS: Business/Economy; Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Government
KEYWORDS: banglist; gunporn
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1 posted on 09/25/2006 10:46:13 AM PDT by kiriath_jearim
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To: kiriath_jearim

I give you the winner.....


http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=SWHC&t=2y&l=on&z=m&q=l&c=


2 posted on 09/25/2006 10:47:28 AM PDT by samadams2000 (Somebody important make....THE CALL!)
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To: kiriath_jearim

Didn't "M" admonish James Bond for carrying a Beretta because it lacked stopping power?

Years ago, I fired a .45 auto Colt. Holy smokes, sounded and felt like a cannon going off!


3 posted on 09/25/2006 10:49:00 AM PDT by RexBeach (Will Rogers Never Met Bill Clinton.)
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I guess no Sig Sauer P226 pistols for all. Oh wait, that's not American made... the Mark 23?


4 posted on 09/25/2006 10:51:40 AM PDT by wastedyears (Give me Liberty or give me DEATH)
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To: kiriath_jearim

Sooo...did they stop the new pistol...or not? It's unclear.


I still hear it may well be the new H&K USP variant that sort of looks like a futuristic 1911. John Farnam, however, predicts it will be a Glock...which would suit me fine.


5 posted on 09/25/2006 10:51:50 AM PDT by Armedanddangerous (The first rule in a gunfight is to have a gun, more than one, if possible..bring a shotgun)
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To: RexBeach

Wasn't Bond's Beretta a .25? Pretty wimpy caliber.


6 posted on 09/25/2006 10:53:06 AM PDT by Disambiguator (Don't mess with Israel.)
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To: kiriath_jearim

who were the 45 cal contenders?

Is this a common ammo issue? One world one calibur?


7 posted on 09/25/2006 10:53:37 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: RexBeach

The Beretta he was admonished for carrying was a .25 cal ... and he replaced it with the more powerful (!) .380 cal Walther ...


8 posted on 09/25/2006 10:53:52 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: kiriath_jearim
Why don't they just use these:


9 posted on 09/25/2006 10:54:53 AM PDT by Rummyfan
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To: longtermmemmory

The Glock, Sig Sauer P-220, and the HK USP I believe.

And there are glocks out there with external safeties. Iv'e seen photos of them.


10 posted on 09/25/2006 10:55:42 AM PDT by Armedanddangerous (The first rule in a gunfight is to have a gun, more than one, if possible..bring a shotgun)
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To: Disambiguator

I thought is was a Walther PPK 9mm kurz (.380).

LLS


11 posted on 09/25/2006 10:55:42 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (Preserve America... kill terrorists... destroy dims!)
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To: RexBeach
Didn't "M" admonish James Bond for carrying a Beretta because it lacked stopping power?

No, I believe it was the Walther PPK (8mm).

12 posted on 09/25/2006 10:55:53 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: Disambiguator

.32


13 posted on 09/25/2006 10:56:12 AM PDT by Eric in the Ozarks (BTUs are my Beat.)
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To: Armedanddangerous

I am in the business and this is news to me. My understanding is both SOCOM and Big Army are in the process of selecting a .45 pistol to replace the 9mm. The article is a little light on facts. There is no doubt concerning the stopping power of a .45, just ask a Moro insurgent, ditto, Jap, German, Korean, and Vietnamese. I would like to know if the ammo stockpiles of 9mm have anything to do with it?


14 posted on 09/25/2006 10:57:00 AM PDT by tigtog
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To: longtermmemmory

The big problem is ammo. Nine Milimeter ball ammo is a notoriously poor one shot stopper. The 45 acp ball ammo is much better.


15 posted on 09/25/2006 10:57:18 AM PDT by Armedanddangerous (The first rule in a gunfight is to have a gun, more than one, if possible..bring a shotgun)
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To: 1rudeboy

It was a 32acp model PPK


16 posted on 09/25/2006 10:57:51 AM PDT by Armedanddangerous (The first rule in a gunfight is to have a gun, more than one, if possible..bring a shotgun)
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To: LibLieSlayer

I went on record criticizing the .380 as a defense round on another thread the other day. The responses were interesting. Some agreed, one disagreed.


17 posted on 09/25/2006 10:58:52 AM PDT by Disambiguator (Don't mess with Israel.)
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To: RexBeach

Just bought me a P45 Kahr 6+1, single stack magazine 4 inch barrel semi-automatic, double action only. Weighs 20 ounces. Put 100 rounds of .45 ball through it this past Saturday. Worked great, no mis-feeds, and once I got used to the trigger, was able to keep them in a four inch bull at 15 to 20 yards. .45 Cal is a good round.

As an aside, the Coast Guard appears to be changing from 9mm to 40 S&W.

Gunner


18 posted on 09/25/2006 10:59:14 AM PDT by weps4ret (Things the make you go; Hmmmmmmm?)
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To: Armedanddangerous

Still my favorite handgun, and the one I plan to carry someday. (No stopping-power lectures, please).


19 posted on 09/25/2006 10:59:44 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: RexBeach

"Didn't "M" admonish James Bond for carrying a Beretta because it lacked stopping power?"

****

Yes. M's assistant from Q branch said the department viewed 007's .25 cal. pistol as a "ladies' gun, sir".


20 posted on 09/25/2006 11:00:36 AM PDT by kiriath_jearim
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To: kiriath_jearim
I have both a Berretta 92FS and an H&K USP .45 tactical. I would prefer the H&K hands down. I love my Berretta, but the H&K is simply better. My only knock against the H&K is it's a little bulky.
21 posted on 09/25/2006 11:00:39 AM PDT by KoRn
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To: 1rudeboy

A small handgun is much better than no handgun at all and just some harsh words.


22 posted on 09/25/2006 11:01:04 AM PDT by Blue Jays (Rock Hard, Ride Free)
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To: Armedanddangerous

I am wondering if this is a cost per bullet issue?


How many types of bullets does the military use? (I remember a history chanel special showing how the japanese during WWII were crippled by their wide variety of bullet needs)


23 posted on 09/25/2006 11:02:21 AM PDT by longtermmemmory (VOTE! http://www.senate.gov and http://www.house.gov)
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To: RexBeach
"Didn't "M" admonish James Bond for carrying a Beretta because it lacked stopping power? "

Not to mention that the clip keeps falling out too.

24 posted on 09/25/2006 11:04:39 AM PDT by Nathan Zachary
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To: kiriath_jearim
Yes. M's assistant from Q branch said the department viewed 007's .25 cal. pistol as a "ladies' gun, sir."

Time to un-pimp your gun, sir. LOL

25 posted on 09/25/2006 11:06:06 AM PDT by 1rudeboy
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To: kiriath_jearim

Dust off the ol'e 10mm and be done with the arguments.


26 posted on 09/25/2006 11:08:46 AM PDT by n230099 ("If the creator had a purpose in equipping us with a neck, he surely meant us to stick it out.")
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To: kiriath_jearim

Gunfighting rule #23 "Do not attend a gun fight with a handgun whose caliber does not start with a '4.'"
http://www.thegunzone.com/gunfighting.html


27 posted on 09/25/2006 11:09:33 AM PDT by RKV ( He who has the guns, makes the rules.)
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To: tigtog

I think it has to do with incidents of soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan shooting bad guys with their berettas, loaded with pathetic 9mm full metal jacket ball ammunition, and having to follow up with five and six extra shots to make the bad guy dead.


28 posted on 09/25/2006 11:10:15 AM PDT by Armedanddangerous (The first rule in a gunfight is to have a gun, more than one, if possible..bring a shotgun)
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To: Disambiguator

I own a couple... better than a .25 and about the same knockdown as a .38 Special. It is a backup caliber, but 007 was superhuman, so he didn't need more firepower! ;-)

LLS


29 posted on 09/25/2006 11:10:38 AM PDT by LibLieSlayer (Preserve America... kill terrorists... destroy dims!)
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To: longtermmemmory

Naw..its a one-shot stopper issue.


30 posted on 09/25/2006 11:12:15 AM PDT by Armedanddangerous (The first rule in a gunfight is to have a gun, more than one, if possible..bring a shotgun)
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To: tigtog

Dear TT,
I hope ypou are right. Replacing the .45 ACP with the 9mm was fixing a problem that didn't exist. My son has friends in Marine Force Recon. They have a smorgasbord of weapons to select and train with and carry into harm's way. None carry a 9mm.


31 posted on 09/25/2006 11:12:49 AM PDT by JeeperFreeper
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To: weps4ret

Yep, the SIG-226 in 40 caliber with the DAK trigger.


32 posted on 09/25/2006 11:12:54 AM PDT by Armedanddangerous (The first rule in a gunfight is to have a gun, more than one, if possible..bring a shotgun)
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To: RKV

Breaking that rule did not hurt James Butler Hickock, but sitting at the wrong place on the card table did.


33 posted on 09/25/2006 11:14:42 AM PDT by FNG
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To: Eaker
And there are glocks out there with external safeties. Iv'e seen photos of them.

ping for a Glock statement. Is this true? After market addition?

34 posted on 09/25/2006 11:15:17 AM PDT by thackney (life is fragile, handle with prayer)
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To: kiriath_jearim
The M1911 .45 caliber pistol that the 9mm Beretta replaced in 1985, was, as its nomenclature implied, an old design. There are several modern designs out there for .45 caliber pistols that are lighter, carry more ammo and are easier to maintain than the pre-World War I M1911 (which is actually about a century old, as a design). The Department of Defense planned to buy 645,000 JCPs. But now, the troops are being told to keep their 9mm Berettas, and all the complaints they have about those weapons.

Does no one remember September 11, 2001 when America was attacked by Islamic terrorists?

In 1898 the U.S Armed Forces carried .38 revolver

.38 caliber is .357

9 mm is .355

During the Spanish-American war the .38 caliber proved insufficient to stop Islamic terrorists in the Philippines

.45 caliber ACP was chosen, Browning designed a sidearm to stop Islamic Terrorists.

It seems that DoD has forgotten one hundred years of history.

The 1911 pistol may be 100 years old, but stopping Islamic Terrorists has remained the same.

OBTW; Think of this question : is Islamic Terrorist redundant ?


35 posted on 09/25/2006 11:15:26 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 144:1 Praise be to YHvH, my Rock, who trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle.)
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To: wastedyears

The Mark 23 is by Heckler&Koch, not US either.


36 posted on 09/25/2006 11:15:32 AM PDT by Recon Dad (Marine Spec Ops Dad)
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To: kiriath_jearim
Ridiculous.

The sidearm has a neglible contribution to a platoon's fire power. What the DoD needs to do is come up with a real rifle and squad MG before worrying about handguns.

Those who NEED sidearms (Special Operations) are authotized to procure whatever they wish anyway.
37 posted on 09/25/2006 11:16:55 AM PDT by struwwelpeter
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To: XeniaSt
is Islamic Terrorist redundant ?

Yes. There have, from time to time, been Communist terrorists, National Socialist terrorists, and various terrorists involved with nationalist movements that are/were not particularly ideological.

38 posted on 09/25/2006 11:17:52 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

I guess I should say "No, it's not redundant. There have been &c"


39 posted on 09/25/2006 11:18:32 AM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilisation is aborting, buggering, and contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: tigtog

I feel the same way. Very recently I was told that various .45's were being tested. Glocks were one of the pistols being tested. I will be very surprised if this turns out to be the final word on this issue.


40 posted on 09/25/2006 11:18:40 AM PDT by Recon Dad (Marine Spec Ops Dad)
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To: Armedanddangerous

I am very aware of why the services decided to go back to the .45, my question is if this story has any real legs. To date I have not heard anything but full speed ahead with the Big Army .45 buy and small hiccup with SOCOM buy. Difference between the two the need or no need for an external safety. This article alleges that both programs have been stopped.


41 posted on 09/25/2006 11:19:15 AM PDT by tigtog
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To: kiriath_jearim

My .45cal Kimber, every time...


42 posted on 09/25/2006 11:19:35 AM PDT by butternut_squash_bisque (The recipe's at my FR HomePage. Try it!)
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To: struwwelpeter

Wait till you see the SCAR.


43 posted on 09/25/2006 11:20:16 AM PDT by tigtog
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To: kiriath_jearim
Sidestep the issue just get a MP5K-PDW, no bigger than a 1911.

Why ? Because 9mm bursts have more punch than a single 45 round.


BUMP

44 posted on 09/25/2006 11:20:16 AM PDT by capitalist229 (Get Democrats out of our pockets and Republicans out of our bedrooms.)
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To: RexBeach
Years ago, I fired a .45 auto Colt. Holy smokes, sounded and felt like a cannon going off!

Yer' kidding. I'm no recoil junky, but a .45 ACP just doesn't kick that much to me. .45 Long Colt, now that's a horse of a different aphorism.

I grew up shooting a .357, my favorite "carry" pistol is a Witness 10mm. My Taurus 92AF 9mm is a pussy cat by comparison.

45 posted on 09/25/2006 11:20:53 AM PDT by Dead Corpse (Quam terribilis est haec hora)
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To: struwwelpeter

I tend to feel the same thing, that Special Ops will decide on their own and handle their own purchasing.


46 posted on 09/25/2006 11:21:58 AM PDT by Recon Dad (Marine Spec Ops Dad)
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To: weps4ret

I tried one of the Kahr P45s and was very impressed. Glad to hear about your range report. Kahr IIRC likes you to run several hundred rounds through their guns to insure reliability prior to CCW carry. It's a strong contender for my carry piece.


47 posted on 09/25/2006 11:25:08 AM PDT by Tijeras_Slim (1 year guarantee against congenital defects.)
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To: struwwelpeter
LOL
My son, USAC, ditched his pistol - carried a 12GA Mossberg shotgun as backup for room cleaning duties.

The magazines are real POS for the current issue M9.

Low bid wins, the GI loses.
48 posted on 09/25/2006 11:27:05 AM PDT by ASOC (The phrase "What if" or "If only" are for children.)
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To: thackney
And there are glocks out there with external safeties. Iv'e seen photos of them.

ping for a Glock statement. Is this true? After market addition?

It would have to be after market and the smith would have to be an idiot.

49 posted on 09/25/2006 11:27:21 AM PDT by Eaker (Dix, TexasCowboy and Flyer all now live in the next best place to Texas . .. Heaven)
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To: Armedanddangerous
And there are glocks out there with external safeties. Iv'e seen photos of them.

Sure you're not thinking of the full-auto Glock 18, with its slide-mounted selector?

50 posted on 09/25/2006 11:31:16 AM PDT by DocH (Gun-grabbers, you can HAVE my guns... lead first.)
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