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Why our people earn less and less
Der Spiegel ^ | 16.10.2006 | Gabor Steingart

Posted on 10/17/2006 2:21:49 AM PDT by Rummenigge

Asia is fast developing into an economic powerhouse, with China and India gradually transforming themselves into the new masters of the universe. Meanwhile, the West faces the prospect of losing the globalization game, as European labor is devalued -- by the millions.

(Excerpt) Read more at spiegel.de ...


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: asia; china; culture; globalization; india; news; workforce; worldeconomy
The shift of work force is one of the major threats to global security in our times. Please comment.
1 posted on 10/17/2006 2:21:49 AM PDT by Rummenigge
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To: Rummenigge

Germans are earning less because their productivity is not increasing.


2 posted on 10/17/2006 2:23:49 AM PDT by Mikey_1962 (If you build it, they won't come...)
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To: Rummenigge

What do you have against everyday low prices?


3 posted on 10/17/2006 2:25:39 AM PDT by durasell (!)
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To: Rummenigge

Like water, wages will seek it's own level. The lowest wage will rise and the highest wages will fall. It's a matter of time.


4 posted on 10/17/2006 2:28:20 AM PDT by G-Man 1
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To: Rummenigge

Like water, wages will seek it's own level. The lowest wage will rise and the highest wages will fall. It's a matter of time.


5 posted on 10/17/2006 2:28:21 AM PDT by G-Man 1
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To: Rummenigge

This is more of an "Old Europe" problem, than a Western one. Specifically, in Germany and France.


6 posted on 10/17/2006 2:32:00 AM PDT by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: Rummenigge

Unions are threatened.

Good.


7 posted on 10/17/2006 2:33:08 AM PDT by MonroeDNA
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To: Rummenigge

Der Speigel hates America.

See David Kaspar's Mediacritik.

http://medienkritik.typepad.com/blog/


8 posted on 10/17/2006 2:37:16 AM PDT by WOSG (Broken-glass time, Republicans! Save the Congress!)
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To: G-Man 1

Why are US wages rising?


9 posted on 10/17/2006 2:39:26 AM PDT by IndyMac
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To: Rummenigge; nuconvert
Do not worry. The Chinese banking system has big problems due to low profitability of the Chinese companies. When they will address this many companies will go bankrupt. The fight for workforce will increase the Chinese salaries, and the increase in interest rates will force increase in selling prices for the goods in order for the companies to provide profit. Combined with increase in exchange rates the cost of the Chinese products will increase. We will never be able to purchase Chinese products with the low price that we have today. Let´s party now...
10 posted on 10/17/2006 2:57:41 AM PDT by AdmSmith
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To: AdmSmith

China right now is missing something like 60 million women due to their one-child policy. They're going to need a flag with a hammer, a sickle, and a pink flamingo on it.


11 posted on 10/17/2006 3:01:56 AM PDT by tomzz
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To: AdmSmith

Market forces drive the world. When up against regressive statist business policies, companies become less productive because of defensive measures to avoid employment lawsuits.

Eventually the company moves, goes out of business or is bailed out by the government and used as a money losing jobs program.

This is Europes problem. They cannot close down and they cannot move so they become a jobs program. They aren't concerned with stockholder equity or being profitable.


12 posted on 10/17/2006 3:05:04 AM PDT by EQAndyBuzz (Murtha is even cutting and running from a debate.)
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To: Rummenigge

Another issue we face is US state education system turning out youth that are ill prepared for the workplace. I expect the US to have a shortage of suitable professionals to supply our industries.


13 posted on 10/17/2006 3:10:23 AM PDT by WorkerbeeCitizen (Religion of peace my arse - We need a maintenance Crusade)
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To: WorkerbeeCitizen
Another issue we face is US state education system turning out youth that are ill prepared for the workplace.

We get a new batch of interns every summer from the local universities. Most of them are incredibly good. A few clunkers who drink too much and talk too much. But the majority are very driven, very smart, and a joy to mentor.

There have always been winners and losers in every high school graduating class, and it will continue to be that way.

14 posted on 10/17/2006 3:16:47 AM PDT by Glenn (Annoy a BushBot...Think for yourself.)
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To: Rummenigge
People are unlimitedly inventive. The tone of the article is from a zero some perspective. That is that if some poor guy, working for food gets a job, a guy in the west is laid off.

We need to have a little faith. Just making things isn't enough now adays. People want quality. People by MP3 players but want Ipods. People buy cars but want a BMW, even in Japan. The thing itself is no longer sufficient. People want to buy the idea, the style, the fashion.

Germany's problem is the difficulty in new, young business growth. It is difficult and expensive and the risks are high and profits low. This makes it hard for technical, medical, scientific business growth that would hire young Germans and become the future leaders of German industry. It seems like such a waste of schooling, youth and talent.

This anti business atmosphere is not so much one of cost, but of time. When dealing with government permits, time means nothing to government and who's workers that are habituated to pay checks coming in more steady then the tide. Government workers and agencies know nothing of competition or the time value of money. In the states many business move from older, slower, more bureaucratic states in which permits, if gotten at all, take lots of time, move to younger, quicker, lower tax states. As a phenomenon it wouldn't be bad if state workers just stayed home, then only the tax burden would have to be carried. As it is now, each state worker wants to have a say in everything, at every level so to justify and protect their job from wrong decision making and risk. Thus each worker is incentiveized to be as slow and as cautions as possible. The more state workers, the more commissions, the more hearings, the more permits the more costs the more time. Meanwhile in Florida, or China the competitor is up and running, and what does the state worker care? Back to the article. First labor goes. Then business. But what happens when, as is happening now, business development is done quicker and faster in Asia? That is were the article author should of looked. No business, no jobs. But, still the state doesn't care because they can manufacture their own gold through the printing press, credit markets or higher taxation.
15 posted on 10/17/2006 3:25:35 AM PDT by Leisler (Read the Koran, real Islam is not peaceful.)
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To: Rummenigge

Socialism is what is destroying Europe.

They are becoming less and less competitive as a result.

When you reward people for not working you get more that don't work. They drag down the rest that do work and take away that capital that would otherwise be available for productive investment in the future. Instead it just goes down a black hole...

As far as China goes, I don't think their capitalistic business practices are compatible with their totalitarian government. Those two forces are going to come to a head sooner or later. When they do, the government is going to fall.


16 posted on 10/17/2006 3:28:37 AM PDT by DB ()
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To: Rummenigge
Through 50 years of the Cold War, we argued that the communist block should abandon the dead hand of socialism and join the market system. Now they are doing it, albeit with bumps along the way. This is what victory looks like. Certainly there are challenges, but the world has become a dramatically more productive (and therefore more competitive) place. This is a good thing in the long run.

The author here makes a fundamental error that runs back to the earliest leftist critiques of industrial capitalism -- he forgets that mass production implies mass consumption. We have seen the proliferation of an incredible array of new products and services, and many of these are available at astonishingly low prices. This needs to be factored into any analysis of living standards.

17 posted on 10/17/2006 3:29:49 AM PDT by sphinx
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To: WorkerbeeCitizen

Government is dependent upon poverty, welfare and crime. The schools are just turning out the products government needs to prosper.


18 posted on 10/17/2006 3:30:04 AM PDT by Leisler (Read the Koran, real Islam is not peaceful.)
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To: Leisler

Agreed. The pie can be made bigger as apposed to only so much pie being split into smaller and smaller pieces.


19 posted on 10/17/2006 3:31:28 AM PDT by DB ()
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To: sphinx
There are no laws of physics or nature that require poverty, or limit wealth.
20 posted on 10/17/2006 3:33:18 AM PDT by Leisler (Read the Koran, real Islam is not peaceful.)
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To: Rummenigge

Because Germans (and western Europeans in general) work less and less...yet demand the same level of work benefits, social programs and social welfare that they have become accustomed to from decades of socialism.


21 posted on 10/17/2006 3:35:19 AM PDT by TADSLOS (Ezekiel 25:17)
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To: Rummenigge

The French found a nifty way to eliminate pensioners from the dole but got grilled in the press, so to speak.


22 posted on 10/17/2006 3:57:54 AM PDT by Thrownatbirth (.....when the sidewalks are safe for the little guy.)
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To: Leisler

I agree.


23 posted on 10/17/2006 3:59:06 AM PDT by WorkerbeeCitizen (Religion of peace my arse - We need a maintenance Crusade)
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To: Leisler

I understood:

Time is the fire we are burning in. We are suffering a strong case of holistic bureacratic foot dragging.

Printing dollars and euros is not creating anything of value really.

Innovation needs the acceptance of technology not EPA the greens and Al Gores anti technology campaigns.

Europeans are still under the influence of the blooming and flowering 80s - still stuck in distributing the wealth that is long gone. So are organizations in the US like the UAW.

Since we now agree on all of that - what do we do now ?


24 posted on 10/17/2006 4:14:05 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: WOSG

David Kaspar hates Germany.


25 posted on 10/17/2006 4:28:14 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: AdmSmith

Your optimism is tempting. I can't share it. If china needs to sell lot's of dollars shit will hit the fan - not only in china.


26 posted on 10/17/2006 4:30:44 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: Rummenigge
You asked for it.

This article may be more appropriate for Germany than the US. However, I submit to you that the article misses the most important part and provides a sort of "out of our control" excuse for the decrease in a standard of living.

Here in about 10 minutes, America will officially be 300 million strong. And there are folks that are convinced that there are too many of us using up the worlds resources, yadda yadda yadda. The population of a nation has little to do with its economic wealth. The most important factor is productivity per citizen. On this planet, no nation even comes close to the output of American citizen (person for person that is). Before you argue about it, remember, children in a factory in some third world country are making X amount of shoes per day, while 50 line workers here in a factory can pump out a 100 of automobiles. The comparison is tough to measure apples to apples.

Here is the point. Americans are motivated to work harder and sometimes longer because they are adequately rewarded for their effort. They are also more innovative because they want to be more productive because they are adequately rewarded for their effort. In Europe, where the freedoms they once enjoyed are now stifled by oppressive socialization, high taxes, mandated equal pay, constant leisure and a lack of motivation, citizens do not produce (on average, person for person) like Americans.

What about those wacky Asians you say? Well, the stereo type we have of hard working Japanese we have comes from none other than, our media. Yes, in their largest cities, there are die hard workaholics just as there are here. The Chinese seem to produce a lot, but ironically, they don't produce enough, person for person, to provide for their own citizens. Most of their population produce only enough to survive.

Europeans are comfortable with their status quo. They do not work to hard, they don't expect much in return, and the government takes care of what's left. American's are greedy and able. We'll work harder for things we want (sometimes to the point of diminishing our family values).

The major difference and that which the article failed to mention? American is still a very free country. Our economy is driven by the entrepreneurial spirit of our people. We believe we can get ahead of the Jone's by out working them. So we do. We use the worlds most resources to churn out the worlds most products and drive the worlds economy.

All that said, I believe we are headed in the wrong direction (towards a European model) and need to get back to our roots. We need to considerably downsize our government and continue to leave our economy in the hands or our working citizens.
27 posted on 10/17/2006 4:37:43 AM PDT by Tenacious 1 (War Monger...In the name of liberty, let's go to war!!!!)
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To: WorkerbeeCitizen

[Another issue we face is US state education system turning out youth that are ill prepared for the workplace. I expect the US to have a shortage of suitable professionals to supply our industries.]

We already have a shortage in my industry. But it is not for lack of education. It is for an abundance of work. This is a good problem to have (until your company is short staffed and working everybody like dogs). Then again, it makes the bonus pool phat.


28 posted on 10/17/2006 4:41:16 AM PDT by Tenacious 1 (War Monger...In the name of liberty, let's go to war!!!!)
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To: Leisler

Very good response. I'm impressed.


29 posted on 10/17/2006 4:56:35 AM PDT by DH (The government writes no bill that does not line the pockets of special interests.)
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To: Tenacious 1

If your workers (i don't meen engineers) are willing to compete with millions and millions of 3$ chineese that's all fun and games.

In the end maybe their salaries will meet in the middle. Wich would be (due to the large number of asian workers) 3.10 $.

If they worked with the spirits you summoned maybe it's going to be even 3.12 $.


30 posted on 10/17/2006 4:59:26 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: Rummenigge
The sooner governments and even more importantly, the people, realize this, the better theirs economies will be in the long run.

America 300 million strong - and growing!!!

31 posted on 10/17/2006 5:11:16 AM PDT by Theophilus (Abortion = Child Sacrifice = Future Sacrifice)
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To: tomzz

Your pink flamingo comment really hit the nail on the head. China has a bumpy road ahead. Not only will its population decline, but with its shortage of women, one wonders what that might cause. More homosexuality? More men going to other countries for wives? More men going to other countries? More domestic violence (fighting over women)?


32 posted on 10/17/2006 5:20:06 AM PDT by GeorgefromGeorgia
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To: Rummenigge

On the world stage, it is not about how much money each individual makes. The currency issue is does not translate into wealth. You can only measure an economy by the standard of living. In Zimbabawe, factory workers are making millions of dollars (whatever their currency is) a week. Of course a house costs hundreds of millions. In fact, I think bread now costs almost a million $. There are not very many wealthy folks (by the standard of living) left in that country.


33 posted on 10/17/2006 5:26:31 AM PDT by Tenacious 1 (War Monger...In the name of liberty, let's go to war!!!!)
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To: Theophilus
"The most valuable commodity in America are Americans "

How valuable are all those auto workers in the jobs bank that get $30 hr to set on their a$$ doing nothing?

What is the value of all the welfare leeches that never will work?

How much are the communists in the teachers union worth if the public schools in inner cities turn out students that are too stupid to work in a factory?
34 posted on 10/17/2006 5:27:56 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Demonrats want the Gays out of Congress.....stand back and let them purge their base.)
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To: Tenacious 1

I know that... it's not the average the people earn it's the median.

And the healthcare and the schools available for reasonable money and and and... in the moment I guess scandinavia is the place to live.


35 posted on 10/17/2006 5:40:11 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: Theophilus

This is true. Heads count. I only hope we will manage to integrate what is immmigrating. We can only do so by having more european unity rather then this bannana authorities and UKIP BS.

If the EU doesn't love itself , how could immigrants want to becomme european.


36 posted on 10/17/2006 5:43:26 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: Beagle8U
Spare the tares for the sake of the wheat.

Matthew 13:28-30

28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

37 posted on 10/17/2006 5:50:24 AM PDT by Theophilus (Abortion = Child Sacrifice = Future Sacrifice)
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To: Beagle8U

[How valuable are all those auto workers in the jobs bank that get $30 hr to set on their a$$ doing nothing?

What is the value of all the welfare leeches that never will work?

How much are the communists in the teachers union worth if the public schools in inner cities turn out students that are too stupid to work in a factory?]

I hate to say it, but you are nitpicking. Before you get excited about that remark, let me explain. Take a step back and look at the big picture. Under 4% of the US population is without work. Some would argue that those are the folks that work to avoid working. When you measure this up against our economic competition in the world, we are way ahead. So it holds that the most valuable commodity in America are Americans. Person for person, we produce more, earn more and live better. American's are not going to other countries to get better jobs. And there is apparently enough work here to keep all of us employed (big picture - 4% still equals 12,000,000 of 300,000,000).


38 posted on 10/17/2006 6:12:45 AM PDT by Tenacious 1 (War Monger...In the name of liberty, let's go to war!!!!)
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To: Rummenigge
The taxes in Germany are high, and everything is expensive. A gallon of gas costs $6.50.

Socialism costs money, and lots of it!

39 posted on 10/17/2006 6:13:28 AM PDT by Gritty (Identity rooted in nothing more than the planet as a universal zip code is laughable - Mark Steyn)
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To: Theophilus
Fine, but the tares(rats) trample the wheat before it can grow. Then at harvest they demand an equal share of what is left.
40 posted on 10/17/2006 6:20:09 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Demonrats want the Gays out of Congress.....stand back and let them purge their base.)
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To: Tenacious 1
"I hate to say it, but you are nitpicking. "

That is a good word to describe them "Nits".

I just don't see much value in unions or socialists.
41 posted on 10/17/2006 6:26:08 AM PDT by Beagle8U (Demonrats want the Gays out of Congress.....stand back and let them purge their base.)
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To: tomzz

Yes and an over abundance of males they could put into an expansionist minded military....some 200 million military aged sex crazed males who could sweep over asia like locusts!


42 posted on 10/17/2006 7:04:40 AM PDT by mdmathis6 (Proof against evolution:"Man is the only creature that blushes, or needs to" M.Twain)
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To: DB
Socialism is what is destroying Europe.

Socialism is here in the US too, maybe not to the degree of Old Europe, but it is here.

43 posted on 10/17/2006 7:06:25 AM PDT by dfwgator
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To: AdmSmith
China is not a capitalist system. They have no real reason to stop pretending and address the banking problem.
44 posted on 10/17/2006 9:35:21 AM PDT by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: redgolum

Sooner (Vietnam) or later (Soviet) reality kicks.


45 posted on 10/17/2006 10:11:53 AM PDT by AdmSmith
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To: DB
Agreed. The pie can be made bigger as apposed to only so much pie being split into smaller and smaller pieces.

Then again enlarging the old pie is playing catch-up. I prefer the American way of baking more and different pies.

Don't you just love seeing niches filled in unique ways. That happens much more often if cheap laborers aren't easily imported.
46 posted on 10/17/2006 11:07:11 AM PDT by BabsC
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To: Rummenigge

"David Kaspar hates Germany."

BS! Kaspar is a German patriot who hates his own country's media bias just as much as I, an American patriot, hates the media bias of the New York Times.

I suggest you learn about that excellent blog before spouting off on a fine german media critic!


47 posted on 10/17/2006 9:23:31 PM PDT by WOSG (Broken-glass time, Republicans! Save the Congress!)
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To: WOSG

I suggest you accept my opinion on this since we can't come together on this.

He's just pure bias and polemics.


48 posted on 10/20/2006 1:45:53 AM PDT by Rummenigge (there's people willing to blow out the light because it casts a shadow)
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To: Mikey_1962
Germans are earning less because their productivity is not increasing.

Right and wrong. They are earning less now because it did not increase. It is now increasing: http://japan.seekingalpha.com/article/17847

However, the low-and semi-skilled will continue to earn less because there are people around the world willing to do those jobs for less.

49 posted on 10/20/2006 1:48:48 AM PDT by Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit (War is Peace__Freedom is Slavery__Ignorance is Strength)
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To: Rummenigge

Of course he has an opinion. That's not the point.


Isn't his opinion that DER SPEIGEL is an anti-american leftwing media outlet correct?

It seems obvious just looking at the covers!


50 posted on 10/20/2006 2:24:04 AM PDT by WOSG (Broken-glass time, Republicans! Save the Congress!)
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