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A Return to Triangulation (libertarion vs social right)
National Review Online ^ | 10/25/06 | David Boaz & David Kirby

Posted on 10/25/2006 11:10:46 AM PDT by Blackirish

As the Republican base fragments and Christian conservatives consider a “fast” from politics, the polling data point to a mid-term Republican thumping. Less than two weeks from now, Republicans will begin their post-mortem soul searching. And as the corpses of their House and Senate majorities grow cold, so should Karl Rove’s 2006 campaign strategy.

(Excerpt) Read more at article.nationalreview.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: besthijack; bestthread; blackirish; braad; creation; darwin; darwincentral; darwinhomebase; doublehijacked; evolution; frhero; frlegend; hero; hijack; hijacked; hijackedthread; legend; libertian; minifreepathon; monthlydonorthon; rehijacked; religion; science; socialright; threadjacked; threadjacking
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To: metmom

We're a science discussion site, not a religion site. We're a bit more narrowly-focused than FR.


1,001 posted on 10/27/2006 6:32:21 AM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood

If they can drive the religious conservatives from the Republican party, it's all over and that's what it seems like is happening, or being attempted.


1,002 posted on 10/27/2006 6:32:32 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood

Amen!

I never could figure out why THEIR creation account got preferential treatment.


1,003 posted on 10/27/2006 6:33:46 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Junior

I've read comments over there. I was hard pressed to find *scientific* discussion.


1,004 posted on 10/27/2006 6:34:50 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
rwp was banned for no flimsy reason, as I recall. Why does he keep popping up on this thread?

I mentioned him because he really *is* a professor and as such, it would be somewhat his *real life job* to educate on science.

He was far too irascible but his comments were scientifically rigorous.

BTW, I was out of town (I think in Alaska) when he got banned. I never did find out how it happened, as the thread apparently got pulled too.

If anyone can give me more details via private FReepmail, I'd be grateful.

Cheers!

1,005 posted on 10/27/2006 6:35:02 AM PDT by grey_whiskers
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To: grey_whiskers

I leave at #550, and come back now and find a wonderful illustration of these c VS e THREADS!!

tHAN KS!


(Now post a calvinasaurus!)


1,006 posted on 10/27/2006 6:36:28 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: metmom

There is no more evidence that life evolved here on the earth than there is for it to have been delivered or engineered by extraterrestrials...

How do evolutionists feel about teaching that life came from outer space? They already teach the Big Bang theory...

1,007 posted on 10/27/2006 6:36:31 AM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood (LET'S ROLL!)
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood
1,000. Not bad for a highjacked thread...
1,008 posted on 10/27/2006 6:36:36 AM PDT by grey_whiskers
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood
"It is our wits that make us men." (Malcolm Wallace in Braveheart).

Flip side??

"It is our knits that make us women."

1,009 posted on 10/27/2006 6:39:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: grey_whiskers

Some of the Bozos out there can't get past that word “God,” so they would just piss the entire country away and join the enemies of America; all because they have this polemic need to bash the Christians and do everything in contravention to them. I say screw them and the filthy practices they want to live by. My children are not going to inherit their squalor if I can help it.


1,010 posted on 10/27/2006 6:39:59 AM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood (LET'S ROLL!)
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To: Junior
Then don't impose *YOUR* irreligion on us!

--I've wanted to say that for a long time--just on general principles after being lectured on 'keeping religion in its place' ;-)

If you want to have a science site with a Darwinistic bent, great. But FR is about conservatism, not Darwinism--don't try to turn it into THAT...

Full Disclosure: The point is, if you want to discuss science, great. Can't we get a gentleman's agreement that on the pure biology and/or science threads, that crevo food fighters stay OFF of them unless the poster of the thread explicitly invites it?

There ought to be a way to have biology postings without it turning into a flame war, every time...

Cheers!

1,011 posted on 10/27/2006 6:40:12 AM PDT by grey_whiskers
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To: metmom

Only by the disquised leftists!


1,012 posted on 10/27/2006 6:41:04 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie
"It is our knits that make us women."

It is by our kilts we can prove we are men...

1,013 posted on 10/27/2006 6:41:40 AM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood (LET'S ROLL!)
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To: metmom
I never could figure out why THEIR creation account got preferential treatment.

Basically for the same reason that a spherical earth gets preferential treatment over a flat earth, and the earth orbiting the sun gets preferential treatment over the sun orbiting the earth.

Sometimes it takes religion a few centuries to come to terms with science, but it eventually does. Believers are no longer debating whether the earth moves.

1,014 posted on 10/27/2006 6:42:53 AM PDT by js1138 (The absolute seriousness of someone who is terminally deluded.)
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To: grey_whiskers
There ought to be a way to have biology postings without it turning into a flame war, every time...

Simple:

Leave out the word, thought, idea, consept of EVOLUTION in them!

Just talk about what IS; not what might, could, should, oughtta BE!!!

1,015 posted on 10/27/2006 6:43:49 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood

LOL!


1,016 posted on 10/27/2006 6:44:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: Elsie

Dyslectic G bump


1,017 posted on 10/27/2006 6:44:57 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going....)
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To: js1138
...the same reason that a spherical earth gets preferential treatment over a flat earth, and the earth orbiting the sun gets preferential treatment over the sun orbiting the earth.

There is no more evidence that life evolved here on the earth than there is for it to have been delivered or engineered by extraterrestrials.

1,018 posted on 10/27/2006 6:50:27 AM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood (LET'S ROLL!)
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To: Fiddlstix; nopardons
Oh boy...I thought this was going to be a typical 60 post thread from NRO...never thought it was gonna go like this.
1,019 posted on 10/27/2006 6:51:29 AM PDT by Blackirish
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To: metmom

Indeed we do talk about a lot of other things too. Even the handful of creationists on the site abide by the rules and the discussions are more or less pretty civil.


1,020 posted on 10/27/2006 6:57:38 AM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: grey_whiskers
Then don't impose *YOUR* irreligion on us!

Heck, I'm Catholic. I don't accept the inerrancy of Scripture and I think a lot of people worship a book rather than God, but that does not make me irreligious.

The anti-science bent of a lot of folks, especially here on FR, is really hurting the conservative movement. Conservatism should appeal to the rationalist, regardless of religious affiliation or lack thereof. Of late, however, the fundies have been trying to drive anyone not a born-again Protestant Christian from the movement, which will, in the end, kill the very things they want to promote.

1,021 posted on 10/27/2006 7:01:20 AM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: Junior
Of late, however, the fundies have been trying to drive anyone not a born-again Protestant Christian from the movement, which will, in the end, kill the very things they want to promote.

I am an atheist and think you are clearly just a pathetic anti-Christian... "Fundie" is a favorite leftist slur...

1,022 posted on 10/27/2006 7:19:45 AM PDT by Sir Francis Dashwood (LET'S ROLL!)
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George Santayana placemarker


1,023 posted on 10/27/2006 7:25:00 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Jim Robinson
When used as POLITICAL tools,

I see where you are coming from now. True, those with an agenda can use any science as a political tool, warping the goal of science, which is simply the furthering of knowledge through rational observation.

I am sure some people have a fixation on the Theory of Evolution and want it in the classroom for various non-scientific reasons. Personally, I don't care if the Theory of Evolution were to be completely disproved tomorrow, replaced by another valid scientific theory. I just want the current state of science in the science class -- and English in English class, math in math class, religion in religion class, etc.

1,024 posted on 10/27/2006 7:45:47 AM PDT by antiRepublicrat
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Atheist Creationist Placemarker


1,025 posted on 10/27/2006 7:48:17 AM PDT by ahayes (On the internet no one can hear you scream.)
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood
".....There is no more evidence that life evolved here on the earth than there is for it to have been delivered or engineered by extraterrestrials........"

Oh, but here is! Come back to the TRUE 'Intelligent Design Movement', Brother, and get some REAL Religion. Go here!!!!!!!!!!!!!...............

http://www.rael.org/rael_content/rael_summary.php

The Designers have been here!

I read it on the Internet therefore it must be true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The Bible says so too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..........

Lets all get together and get this into our Godless Public School System as a viable alternative to what the Godless Evilutionists profess!!!!!!!!

Who's with me?

The image “http://pds1.exblog.jp/pds/1/200505/07/11/c0053311_2215096.jpg” cannot be displayed, because it contains errors.


Wednesday, 29 March 2006 14:54

HUMAN SCIENTISTS FROM ANOTHER PLANET CREATED ALL LIFE ON EARTH USING DNA.

Traces of this epic masterpiece of creation can be found in all religious writings and traditions. It is to them that Moses, Jesus, Buddha and Mohammed referred. It is now time to welcome them.


WHAT HAPPENED?

On the 13th of December 1973, French journalist Rael was contacted by a visitor from another planet, and asked to establish an Embassy to welcome these people back to Earth.

The extra-terrestrial human being was a little over four feet tall, had long dark hair, almond shaped eyes, olive skin, and exuded harmony and humor. Rael recently described him by saying quite simply, "If he were to walk down a street in Japan, he would not even be noticed." In other words, they look like us, and we look like them. In fact, we were created "in their image" as explained in the Bible.

He told Rael that:

"We were the ones who designed all life on earth"
"You mistook us for gods"
"We were at the origin of your main religions"
"Now that you are mature enough to understand this,we would like to enter official contact through an embassy"


THE MESSAGES

The messages dictated to Rael explain that life on Earth is not the result of random evolution, nor the work of a supernatural 'God'. It is a deliberate creation, using DNA, by a scientifically advanced people who made human beings literally "in their image" -- what one can call "scientific creationism." References to these scientists and their work, as well as to their symbol of infinity, can be found in the ancient texts of many cultures. For example, in Genesis, the Biblical account of Creation, the word "Elohim" has been mistranslated as the singular word "God", but it is actually a plural word which means "those who came from the sky", and the singular is "Eloha" (also known as "Allah"). Indigenous cultures all over the world remember these "gods" who came from the sky, including natives of Africa (Dogon, Twa, etc.), America, Asia, Australia, and Europe.

Leaving our humanity to progress by itself, the Elohim nevertheless maintained contact with us via prophets including Buddha, Moses, Mohammed, etc., all specially chosen and educated by them. The role of the prophets was to progressively educate humanity through the Messages they taught, each adapted to the culture and level of understanding at the time. They were also to leave traces of the Elohim so that we would be able to recognize them as our Creators and fellow human beings when we had advanced enough scientifically to understand them. Jesus, whose father was an Eloha, was given the task of spreading these messages throughout the world in preparation for this crucial time in which we are now privileged to live: the predicted Age Of Revelation.

And most important of all, read the book, "Intelligent Design - Message from the Designers" the book which will revolutionize your thinking, transform your life and which is already changing the world.

CLICK HERE TO DOWNLOAD THE FREE E-BOOK!


Free Downloads
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1,026 posted on 10/27/2006 7:49:52 AM PDT by DoctorMichael (A wall first. A wall now.)
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood

You're not an atheist, nor have you ever been one. You can claim it all you want, but your posts speak for themselves.


1,027 posted on 10/27/2006 8:07:30 AM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: Junior; All
Indeed we do talk about a lot of other things too.

I decided to have a look at the DarwinCentral site last night. The first thread I found was a rather large one trashing FR and Jim Rob. Nice. You must be proud to be a member.

1,028 posted on 10/27/2006 8:11:43 AM PDT by Michael_Michaelangelo (The best theory is not ipso facto a good theory.)
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To: Michael_Michaelangelo
You must be proud to be a member.

I am. We have a place to blow-off our frustrations, sure. But, like liberals, you take a fraction of the available evidence and extrapolate it to cover the totality.

Heck, we must be doing something right; since this brouhaha we've collected nearly a score new members over there.

1,029 posted on 10/27/2006 8:40:12 AM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: Sir Francis Dashwood
"Fundie" is a favorite leftist slur...

"Fundie" is a universal slur against fundamentalists. It is used by the non-fundie right, left and center to describe those folks who not only wear their religions on their sleeves but feel everyone else on the planet needs to believe exactly the same way they do.

As for you being an atheist, your postings speak louder than your claims. You take the fundamentalist Christian side in all arguments, including creationism (why would an atheist believe in creationism?). It is pathetically obvious to everyone more intelligent than a retarded monkey that you are no atheist.

1,030 posted on 10/27/2006 8:43:46 AM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: Jim Robinson
Jim:

I haven't been posting since the 11th of this month, after a science news thread got transferred to the Religion forum, and I kinda gave up on science news around here -- at least for a while.

When I registered back in '99 it was because this site had been recommended to me by a good friend -- brace yourself! -- Jack Thompson. I looked, I read your mission statement, I liked what I saw. When I discovered that you also had active science threads I was doubly delighted.

As my homepage said, I've long been concerned by the left's propaganda that conservatives are idiots, while intellectuals belong to them, and I thought that myth should be exploded. I've had a great time helping to keep this website interesting for dozens of scientists, engineers, and university professors. You've had loads of PhDs here, with degrees in physics, chemistry, math, biology, astronomy, etc. Several have said to me that on their liberal campuses they've had no one to talk with, but here they can chat with like-minded conservatives. We loved this place! My science ping lists had just short of 400 names. And -- wouldja believe it? -- most of them are religious people. That's no contradiction.

Most Christian denominations aren't anti-science, and most scientists aren't anti-religion. We (the people on my ping list) have always tried to walk that line, and to make it clear that our interest in science isn't because of any antagonism to religion. For the most part we've done that rather well -- but you can't please everyone. I don't bash religion, and I've always avoided atheism threads -- I don't start them, don't ping to them.

However, some folks are hyper-sensitive. If someone says -- correctly -- that Noah's Ark isn't supported by scientific evidence, in my mind that's not Christian-bashing, or Marxism, or devil worship, or an endorsement of homosexuality. But if someone starts complaining that such a scientific view amounts to bashing his religion, well ... he's wrong, and he shouldn't be on the science threads, just as a belligerent atheist doesn't belong in the religion threads. But if he mashes the abuse button and complains to the mods, it requires a mod who understands what's going on.

Since Dales left, we haven't had a mod who cared enough to follow our threads so that he'd know who was making trouble. It's been a rough year without Dales. Once I even asked the admin mod if there were another mod with whom I could work to smooth out problems, but I got a brush-off. Fair enough. We slogged along, and a lot of science threads ended up in the Backroom that didn't need to go there. Some judicious moderation would have calmed things down, but it just wasn't there. We endured. But then ... my homepage vanished. That was March 6 of this year (or the 5th, I no longer remember).

The unexplained disappearance of my homepage is literally the reason for the creation of Darwin Central. On March 7 -- the day after the homepage takedown -- we started an emergency site at Yahoo, just like FR has. It was a place where we could find each other in case something crazy happened. I thought I was being zotted. When seemingly senseless things happen (like the homepage takedown) for no apparent reason, people will assume that something's gone wrong, and they will expect more of the same. DC was created as a fall-back site where we could find one another in case a bunch of us got banned -- a fate that was reasonable to expect under the circumstances.

The non-response to my inquiries to the mods and to John R was troublesome; it was attributed to your distance from day-to-day affairs. It was assumed that you had delegated too much authority to assistants with an anti-science agenda, and that some rogue mod was on a private rampage.

Seriously, Jim, I had no clue what was happening. I "knew" it wasn't you, because I've had years of happy experience here at FR. I naturally assumed the problem was a rogue mod or maybe computer hacking, and I asked John R to look into it for me. I really wish you had said something to me. But we've never talked. Perhaps it's too late now, but I wanted to lay out my side of all this.

Anyway, the motive for Darwin Central's creation wasn't anti-FR. It was self-defense. You're the godfather, Jim.

We're not socialists, nor homos, nor ACLU freaks, nor anti-FR. We'd like nothing more than to have things the way they were, back when Dales was a concerned moderator who understood what was happening in our threads. If that's not to be, okay. It's your website, and we're not your enemies.

I've always wished you well, and I continue to do so. I'm going to vote straight "R" as I always do. I'll pray for the troops, and you, and for our great country.

And no, this isn't an opus.

1,031 posted on 10/27/2006 8:47:21 AM PDT by PatrickHenry
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To: grey_whiskers

Unfortunately there is no good book I have come across about the philosophy of Whitehead since the Living Philosophers series in the sense of quick and direct and succinct. Whitehead has developed his own lingo and rightly so. "Process and Reality" is supposedly his philosophy masterwork and one of the best of the best, right up there with Heidegger's "Being and Time," but was written while he was still a mathematician and in transition. However, he develops ontological categories there that Aristotle wouldn't have dreamed of on his best day. Won't be any shortcuts here.


1,032 posted on 10/27/2006 8:50:35 AM PDT by RightWhale (Repeal the law of the excluded middle)
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To: Junior
You can claim it all you want, but your posts speak for themselves.

Kinda applies to your claim of Catholicism.

1,033 posted on 10/27/2006 8:57:21 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: AndrewC
I never said I was a good Catholic.

As I said, I don't believe in the inerrancy of Scripture. I have a handful of saints I venerate (there are always votive candles going in the little shrine in my house) and I say my prayers. Once in a blue moon I go to mass.

My version of Catholicism, however, cannot be compared to a guy who claims no belief in God, yet thinks that same God created the universe.

1,034 posted on 10/27/2006 9:04:14 AM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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===> Placemarker <===
1,035 posted on 10/27/2006 9:09:29 AM PDT by Coyoteman (I love the sound of beta decay in the morning!)
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To: Junior
I never said I was a good Catholic.

I would judge that you're not even a bad one, but, hey, what you call yourself is your business until it is used to add credibility to your arguments. Then, like Mikey Fox's paroxysms, it becomes relevant.

1,036 posted on 10/27/2006 9:13:46 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Junior
Of late, however, the fundies have been trying to drive anyone not a born-again Protestant Christian from the movement,...

I suppose you have plenty of evidence to back up that statement?

1,037 posted on 10/27/2006 9:14:41 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: metmom
Sure. JR has called us Marxists, socialists and a plethorah of other epithets on this thread simply because we don't buy into the fundamentalist party line.

Hell, you and other creationists don't want the science-types around either. You (not you personally, but the overall encompassing "you") have called us Nazis, communists and liberals for accepting science over a literal interpretation of Genesis.

Gee, sounds like you're trying to drive us away, doesn't it?

1,038 posted on 10/27/2006 9:25:19 AM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: AndrewC
You should know, being Catholic and all that.

No, wait. You're not Catholic.

1,039 posted on 10/27/2006 9:26:34 AM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: Junior

Interesting blog item:

Check out the second paragraph:

http://www.transterrestrial.com/


1,040 posted on 10/27/2006 9:27:37 AM PDT by RadioAstronomer (Senior member of Darwin Central)
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To: Junior
You (not you personally, but the overall encompassing "you") have called us Nazis, communists and liberals for accepting science over a literal interpretation of Genesis.

Stiff upper lip and all that. Come on Junior, you throw stones as good as anybody. I haven't lost a wink of sleep yet over the stones thrown my way by fellow freepers like yourself.

You want to do something to to advance conservatism and science?

Tell the technofascists supporting the "anti cloning" amendment in Missouri that we dreaded creationists are not all rubes. We know what somatic cell nuclear transfer is and we know that the amendment seeks to place the public purse at the control of the science community rather than elected representatives.

When you do that I'll know you are serious about conservatism and bridging the gap between science and religion.

1,041 posted on 10/27/2006 9:33:42 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Junior
No, wait. You're not Catholic.

And I'm not Muslim, but I sure can talk about their disingenuousness.

1,042 posted on 10/27/2006 9:37:10 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: jwalsh07
Tell the technofascists supporting the "anti cloning" amendment in Missouri that we dreaded creationists are not all rubes.

Actions speak louder than words. They must've gotten the idea that creationists were rubes from somewhere.

1,043 posted on 10/27/2006 9:44:13 AM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: AndrewC

But you cannot comment on what is and is not a "good Moslem." You can comment on Catholicism or atheism (or disengenuousness) for that matter all you want.


1,044 posted on 10/27/2006 9:45:12 AM PDT by Junior (Losing faith in humanity one person at a time.)
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To: Junior
But you cannot comment on what is and is not a "good Moslem."

Sure I can.

This is a good Muslim.(in fact, a hero)

And this is a bad Muslim

Care to argue?

1,045 posted on 10/27/2006 9:49:01 AM PDT by AndrewC
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To: Junior
Actions speak louder than words. They must've gotten the idea that creationists were rubes from somewhere.

LOL, you've become a parody of yourself.

Oh and one other thing, I am Catholic and to be Catholic one must, of necessity, be a creationist. So when you self identify as a Catholic, I think that is ample evidence that you are a creationist and hence a "rube".

And since you have no problem with the followers of scientism trying to take the peoples money without being accountable to the people I guess you are some type of Marixist and Jim was absolutely right.

Now correct me if I'm wrong and I'll withdraw the Marxist comment. Do you support the Missouri Amendment or not?

1,046 posted on 10/27/2006 9:50:20 AM PDT by jwalsh07
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To: Junior
Hell, you and other creationists don't want the science-types around either.

Right /s

I guess I'm having a real identity crisis; I don't know whether I'm coming or going.

1,047 posted on 10/27/2006 10:11:23 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: Junior; Jim Robinson
JR has called us Marxists, socialists and a plethorah of other epithets on this thread simply because we don't buy into the fundamentalist party line.

Make that *conservative* or *republican* party line and it might make more sense. What is the *fundamentalist* party line? What's the *Fundamentalist Party* to begin with? Never heard of it.

What I object to is people who call themselves conservatives who think nothing of teaming up with vile organizations like the ACLU to help them further their America and God hating agenda. That does not lend any credibility to anyone who claims to be a conservative. Actions speak louder than words.

1,048 posted on 10/27/2006 10:19:34 AM PDT by metmom (Welfare was never meant to be a career choice.)
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To: jwalsh07
Oh and one other thing, I am Catholic and to be Catholic one must, of necessity, be a creationist.

Curious. Why, then, do you believe that Ken Miller claims to be Catholic?
1,049 posted on 10/27/2006 10:30:39 AM PDT by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Dimensio; jwalsh07
jw: Oh and one other thing, I am Catholic and to be Catholic one must, of necessity, be a creationist.

D: Curious. Why, then, do you believe that Ken Miller claims to be Catholic?

To be a Catholic, though, one must not of necessity, reject evolution.

1,050 posted on 10/27/2006 11:13:09 AM PDT by Gumlegs
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