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A New Foundation for Positive Cultural Change: Science and God in the Public Square
Human Events ^ | September 15, 2000 | Nancy Pearcey

Posted on 10/28/2006 3:22:14 PM PDT by betty boop

Moral conservatives were shocked to read a thinly veiled defense of infanticide in the New York Times a few years ago by MIT [now of Harvard] professor Steven Pinker. But they would be even more disturbed if they saw Pinker’s justification for his views in a book that appeared about the same time.

In How the Mind Works, Pinker argues that the fundamental premise of ethics has been disproved by science. “Ethical theory,” he writes, “requires idealizations like free, sentient, rational, equivalent agents whose behavior is uncaused.” Yet, “the world, as seen by science, does not really have uncaused events.”

In other words, moral reasoning assumes the existence of things that science tells us are unreal. Pinker tries to retain some validity for ethics nonetheless by offering a “double truth” theory: “A human being,” he says, “is simultaneously a machine and a sentient agent, depending on the purposes of the discussion.”

It’s astonishing that anyone, especially an MIT professor, would be capable of sustaining two such contradictory ideas. But in fact, it is quite common, says Phillip Johnson in The Wedge of Truth. Since the Enlightenment, knowledge has split into two separate and often contradictory spheres: “facts” (science) versus “values” (ethics, religion, the humanities).

The trouble with this division is that eventually one side comes to dominate. This is the key to understanding why America is embroiled in a culture clash today, Johnson argues — and why moral and religious conservatives are losing. The direction in intellectual history since the Enlightenment has been to grant science the authority to pronounce what is real, true, objective, and rational, while relegating ethics and religion to the realm of subjective opinion and nonrational experience.

Once this definition of knowledge is conceded, then any position that appears to be backed by science will ultimately triumph in the public square over any position that appears based on ethics or religion. The details of the particular debate do not matter. For, in principle, we do not enact into public policy and we do not teach in the public schools views based private opinion or tribal prejudice.

Johnson gives a rich description of how the fact/value dichotomy operates. Its origin is generally traced to Descartes, who proposed a sharp dualism between matter and mind. It was not long before the realm of matter came to be seen as more certain, more objective, than the realm of mind. The subject matter of physics is indeed much simpler than metaphysics, and hence yields far wider agreement. This was mistakenly taken to mean that physics is objective while metaphysics is subjective. The result was the rise of scientism and positivism — philosophies that accord naturalistic science a monopoly on knowledge and consign all else to mere private belief and fantasy.

Today, Johnson writes, “the dominance of the scientific naturalist definition of knowledge eventually ensures that no independent source of knowledge will be recognized.”

Darwin, Buddha, Jesus, Fairies
Yet, depending on how scientists judge the public’s mood, they are more or less blunt about this epistemological imperialism. When feeling secure in their role as the cultural priesthood, they insist that naturalistic science has completely discredited the claims of religion. Tufts philosopher Daniel Dennett, in Darwin’s Dangerous Idea, says Darwinian evolution is “a universal acid” that dissolves all traditional religious and moral beliefs. He suggests that traditional churches be relegated to “cultural zoos” for the amusement of onlookers.

I witnessed the same attitude at a conference last April at Baylor University: Nobel prize-winner Steven Weinberg lumped together all spiritual teachings, whether of Buddha or Jesus, as talk about “fairies.” A few months earlier he had told the Freedom From Religion Association, “I personally feel that the teaching of modern science is corrosive to religious belief, and I’m all for that.” If science helps bring about the end of religion, he concluded, “it would be the most important contribution science could make.”

Using a sports metaphor, Johnson calls these outspoken scientists “the offensive platoon,” brought out as needed to “invok[e] the authority of science to silence any theistic protest.” At other times, however, when the public shows signs of restlessness at this imposition of naturalistic philosophy under the guise of science, “the defensive platoon takes the field. That is when we read spin-doctored reassurances that many scientists are religious (in some sense) . . . and that science and religion are separate realms which should never be mixed.”

But separate-but-equal in principle invariably means unequal in practice. For example, a report by the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) says, “whether God exists or not is a question about which science is neutral.” But a survey of NAS members by Larry Witham and Edward Larson in Scientific American found that 90% of scientists don’t believe in a supernatural God. Witham and Larson conclude: “The irony is remarkable: a group of specialists who are nearly all unbelievers — and who believe that science compels such a conclusion — told the public that ‘science is neutral’ on the God question.”

Or perhaps worse than an irony, Johnson comments; it may be a “noble lie” that the intellectual priesthood tells to the common people to conceal their own nihilism.

Keep the Public In the Dark
Similarly, Harvard’s Stephen J. Gould proposes a peacemaking formula he calls NOMA (“non-overlapping magisteria”), granting science and religion each its own distinct authority. This sounds fair enough — but it all depends on where one draws the line. Consider Gould’s assessment of the 1996 statement by John Paul II, in which the pope tentatively supported evolution while emphatically rejecting any theories that “consider the spirit as emerging from the forces of living matter or as a mere epiphenomenon of this matter.”

How did Gould treat this affirmation of the reality of the spiritual realm? He condescendingly granted that such a quaint notion might have some “metaphorical value,” but added that he privately suspected it to be “no more than a sop to our fears, a device for maintaining a belief in human superiority within an evolutionary world offering no privileged position to any creature.”

In other words, Gould reduced religion to mere emotion at best — at worst, to the sin of speciesism. This was a bit much even for John Haught of Georgetown University, himself an ardent evolutionist: He complained that Gould “never concedes the slightest cognitive status to religion” — that for Gould religion merely “paints a coat of ‘value’ over the otherwise valueless ‘facts’ described by science.”

Precisely. For the modern Darwinist, Johnson explains, the only role left for the theologian “is to put a theistic spin on the story provided by materialism.” Theology does not provide an independent source of knowledge; all it can do is “borrow knowledge to put a subjective interpretation on it.”

Clearly, the function of the defensive platoon is merely to keep religious folk content with their subordinate status. Darwinists understand that it is sometimes more effective not to press the logic of the fact/value split to its unpalatable conclusions too adamantly, lest the public catch on and raise a protest. Instead of arguing that religion is false, by relegating it to the “value” realm, they keep the question of true and false off the table altogether. As Johnson says, religion is consigned “to the private sphere, where illusory beliefs are acceptable ‘if they work for you.’”

Thus the fact/value split “allows the metaphysical naturalists to mollify the potentially troublesome religious people by assuring them that science does not rule out ‘religious belief’ (so long as it does not pretend to be knowledge).”

Once this division is accepted in principle however, Johnson warns, the philosophical naturalists have won. “Whenever the ‘separate realms’ logic surfaces, you can be sure that the wording implies that there is a ruling realm (founded on reality) and a subordinate realm (founded on illusions which must be retained for the time being).” Hence, “the formula allows the ruling realm to expand its territory at will.”

Epistemological Imperialism
The expansion of the “fact” realm into theology can be traced in the work of scientists such as Harvard’s E.O. Wilson, who seeks to explain religion itself as a product of evolution. Religion is merely an idea that appears in the human mind when the nervous system has evolved to a certain level of complexity.

In Consilience, Wilson says religion evolved because belief in God gave early humans an edge in the struggle for survival. Today, he says, we must abandon traditional religions and develop a new unifying myth based squarely on evolution — a religion that deifies the process itself, where no teaching, no doctrine, is true in any final sense because all ideas evolve over time.

A similar expansion can be traced in ethics, where sociobiology and evolutionary psychology now presume to answer moral questions. In the notorious New York Times article mentioned above, Pinker argues that since infanticide is widespread in human cultures, it must be a product of evolution. As he puts it, the “emotional circuitry of mothers has evolved” to include a “capacity for neonaticide.” It is simply part of our “biological design.”

Accept this logic, Johnson warns, and you will be pressed to the conclusion that killing off babies is not a moral horror but a morally neutral act, a genetically encoded evolutionary adaptation, like wings or claws.

Pinker does not draw this conclusion — yet. But when the time seems ripe to overthrow the traditional moral view, Johnson predicts, doctrinaire naturalists “will complete the logic by observing that the moral sphere is as empty as the religious realm,” and therefore has no power to stand against the conclusions of “science.”

Shortly after Johnson finished his book, his forewarnings were confirmed by the appearance of a book titled The Natural History of Rape, which argued that, biologically speaking, rape is not a pathology; instead, it is an evolutionary strategy for maximizing reproductive success: In other words, if candy and flowers don’t do the trick, some men may resort to coercion to fulfill the reproductive imperative. The book calls rape “a natural, biological phenomenon that is a product of the human evolutionary heritage,” akin to “the leopard’s spots and the giraffe’s elongated neck.”

The book roused sharp controversy, but as one of the authors, Randy Thornhill, said on National Public Radio, the logic is inescapable: Since evolution is true, it must be true, he said, that “every feature of every living thing, including human beings, has an underlying evolutionary background. That’s not a debatable matter.” Every behavior that exists today must confer some evolutionary advantage; otherwise, it would not have been preserved by natural selection.

The “fact” realm has even expanded into the philosophy of mind, where consistent Darwinists tell us there is no single, central “self,” residing somehow within the body, that makes decisions, holds opinions, loves and hates. Instead, in the currently popular “computational” theory, the mind is a set of computers that solve specific problems forwarded by the senses. The notion of a unified self is an illusion, Pinker says — an illusion selected by evolution only because our body needs to be able to go one direction at a time.

Of course, computers operate without consciousness, so the question arises why we are conscious beings. Some neuroscientists conclude that we aren’t — that consciousness too is an illusion. Philosopher Paul Churchland says mental states do not exist, and suggests that we replace language about beliefs and desires with statements about the nervous system’s physical mechanisms — the activation of neurons and so on.

Piling example upon example, Johnson illustrates the epistemological imperialism of the “fact” sphere. This explains why moral and religious conservatives seem to have little effect in the public square: Their message is filtered through a fact/value grid that reduces it to an expression of mere emotional attachment and tribal prejudice. To turn the tide of the culture war, conservatives must challenge this definition of knowledge, and make the case that religion and morality are genuine sources of knowledge. We must “assert the existence of such a cognitive territory,” Johnson writes, “and be prepared to defend it. ” [Emphasis added.]

Of course, others have offered philosophical arguments to undercut the fact/value dichotomy, notably Michael Polanyi and Leo Strauss. What makes Johnson’s approach unique is that he takes the battle into science itself. He proposes that Darwinian evolution itself can and should be critiqued, since it functions as the crucial scientific support for philosophical naturalism. For if nature alone can produce everything that exists, then we must accept the reductionist conclusions described above. If, to take the last example, the mind is a product of material processes at its origin, then we must concede that it consists of nothing more than material processes — that our thoughts are reducible to the firing of neurons.

How Information Changes Everything
In science itself, the cutting-edge issue is information, Johnson says. Any text, whether a book or the DNA code, requires a complex, nonrepeating arrangement of letters. Can this kind of order be produced by chance or law? The answer, he argues, is no. Chance produces randomness, while physical law produces simple, repetitive order (like using a macro on your computer to print a phrase over and over). The only cause of complex, nonrepeating, specified order is an intelligent agent. [Emphasis added.]

Ordinary laboratory research implicitly assumes the reality of intelligent design, Johnson notes. Biologists talk of “molecular machines” and evaluate their “engineering design.” They conduct experiments that are described as “reverse engineering” to determine what functions biological structures perform. They talk about “libraries” of genetic information stored in DNA, and about how RNA “translates” the four-letter language of the nucleotides into the 20-letter language of proteins.

All this implies that information is real — and information in turn implies the existence of a mind, a personal agent, capable of intention and choice. Thus purposes and ends [e.g., formal and final causes, to use the Aristotelian language] are real and objective, and the “value” realm is restored to the status of genuine knowledge.

Johnson only hints at what this would imply for a revival of traditional theology and ethics. But he suggests that it would begin with the many-layered verse in John 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word,” the Logos — reason, intelligence, information. “These simple words make a fundamental statement that is directly contradictory to the corresponding starting point of scientific materialism,” Johnson writes, and they open the door to a much richer definition of knowledge and of reason itself.

This conclusion is certainly suggestive, though not well developed. Johnson’s greatest accomplishment is to give a deft analysis of the imperialism of the “fact” sphere. Unfortunately, he barely touches on the opposite dynamic — the incursion of the “value” sphere into the “fact” realm — which is well advanced in many fields. It is called postmodernism, and it reduces all knowledge claims to social constructions at best, to power plays at worst. Johnson devotes a chapter to the impact of postmodernism on the humanities, but it is the thinnest chapter in the book, and it is clear that his greatest concern is with the scientific fields where the older Enlightenment rationalism still reigns.

For the rationalist, Johnson is no doubt correct that the only approach that carries weight is a scientific one. Only a demonstration that the scientific data itself has theistic implications bridges the sphere of objective, public, verifiable knowledge. Johnson includes clear and readable discussions of standard anti-Darwinian arguments. (There has long been skepticism within the scientific community about the enormous extrapolation from minor variations within living things to explain the origin of living things.) He also gives a deliciously witty account of the Kansas controversy.

The strength of the book, however, is to show the wide-ranging implications of intelligent design theory in other fields, and to trace its relevance for nonscientists — indeed, for all who are concerned about preserving a free and humane society.

Copyright 2000. Human Events. All rights reserved. International copyright secured. File Date: 10.23.00

* * * * * * *

This data file may be reproduced in its entirety for non-commercial use. A return link to the Access Research Network web site would be appreciated.

[URL -- http://www.arn.org/ with gratitude.]


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Philosophy
KEYWORDS: darwinism; intelligentdesign; moralabsolutes; nancypearcey; phillipjohnson; religionisobsolete; stevenpinker
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To: betty boop
Thank you oh so very much for this excellent article and for all of your insights!

I have to say FR isn’t “anti-science” at all; it’s “anti abuse of science” — that is, to say, any use of science dedicated to political and social change purposes. The scientific method itself allows no scope for such proclivities/activities.

Having been around about the same length of time as you have, I very, very strongly agree!

Must leave now, but I look forward to making some further comments later this evening.

101 posted on 10/29/2006 9:45:18 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: cornelis; metmom; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe
There is no science in and of itself.

I think it's easy to lose sight of this. Neils Bohr's take on the issue is fascinating to me:

...We realize the simple fact that natural science is not nature itself but a part of the relation between man and nature, and therefore is dependent on man.

Man, in his relation to nature, is "suspended in language" when he attempts to articulate that relation. And that gets complicated; for as Bohr noted,

"A word is such a complicated thing that we couldn't possibly hope to represent it by a mathematical symbol. A mathematical symbol [the language of natural science] can only represent that discrete aspect of the word which is at the center of our thoughts. However, I need hardly stress that the word itself raises something into the full light of consciousness, but at the same time, it raises many other things which are only in a shaded light. And all these things enter into our consciousness at the same time. What surrounds the word provides it with meaning. And so we are suspended in language in such a way that we cannot say what is "up" and what is "down."

Which to me gives the lie to the idea of science as an independent "thing in itself." The reduction of science to doctrine -- as is evidently the case with, say, neo-Darwinism -- denies the irremedial contingency and indeterminacy that characterizes man's relation to nature. It seems to me "the observer problem" is alive and well here. Yet it seems to me there must be some Truth "beyond" nature that does not depend on man in order for the world to hold together, thus to make science possible in the first place.

To me, another name for that Truth is ... Logos -- in the sense of Saint John's Gospel. FWIW.

Thank you for your great posts, cornelis!

102 posted on 10/29/2006 10:00:41 AM PST by betty boop (Beautiful are the things we see...Much the most beautiful those we do not comprehend. -- N. Steensen)
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To: aumrl
Which of the three books you mention explains the soul ?

I'm afraid I don't recall any of these authors giving any detailed discussion of the soul or other such metaphysics.

103 posted on 10/29/2006 10:35:25 AM PST by megatherium
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To: cornelis
But the real problem is an advantage: Dimensio says, "The theory of evolution has no inherent political bias." In his view, the fact is evolution. Since evolution is science, voila! ergo-propter-hoc, evolution is without bias or prejudice.

If you believe that the theory of evolution actually has inherent bias, then it is your responsibility to demonstrate as much. If you believe that my statements are false, then explain how they are false. Claiming that I am either arrogant or dishonest while providing no evidence for the claims does not support your position.
104 posted on 10/29/2006 10:43:19 AM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: .30Carbine

Yes, I think Chesterton said, if people cease to believe in God, it doesn't mean they will then believe in nothing. Rather, they will believe in anything. Things move in to fill the void.

That may explain why rank superstition thrived more widely in the Renaissance (the witchcraft craze, practice of magic) than it did in the middle ages, and why superstition is so prevalent in the modern age, in the most highly developed countries, since religion was removed from the public square and the schools. Crystal gazing, channeling, Gaia, Wiccan, Satanism, you name it, and you'll find people who believe in it.


105 posted on 10/29/2006 11:10:40 AM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: .30Carbine

Welcome, dearest sister! May I refresh your glass? :^)


106 posted on 10/29/2006 2:50:10 PM PST by betty boop (Beautiful are the things we see...Much the most beautiful those we do not comprehend. -- N. Steensen)
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To: Dimensio
Huh?

Dude, man. Why are you trying to haul me before the bench? I knows what I said. No ifs, ands, or buts. Especially non ifs. I said "and you know, Dimensio is right."

107 posted on 10/29/2006 4:55:20 PM PST by cornelis
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To: betty boop; metmom; TASMANIANRED
We realize the simple fact that natural science is not nature itself but a part of the relation between man and nature

Great quote, betty boop. And as you say, there is an "irremedial contingency and indeterminacy that characterizes man's relation to nature."

This interaction between the knowing person and the objects of knowledge is a relation that demands honesty and humility.

Think about it. Our situation is one of limited knowledge. Don't we do a disservice in the education of the next generation to pretend otherwise?

108 posted on 10/29/2006 4:55:52 PM PST by cornelis
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To: Liberty Wins
I don't know how I managed to lose this thread last night.

Science in terms of knowledge is an out growth of religion...There was the belief that a good and rational God created a good and rational world that we could understand.

Somewhere when God was expelled from science then science itself became perverse.

Thank you Charles Darwin.

Without God then every human life is only as valuable as an animal life.

Human lives are fungible..it became possible to view certain lives as expendable in the name of research...certain lives are expendable in the name of the greater good, other lives are expendable as donor organ suppliers..

Without the recognition that each human life is of valuable in an of itself we are reduced to a Darwinist survival of the fittest...

If man were moral, science would be moral...as it used to be...

It is no longer and science in a Godless world is amoral.
109 posted on 10/29/2006 5:44:39 PM PST by TASMANIANRED (The Internet is the samizdat of liberty..)
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To: cornelis; TASMANIANRED; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe; .30Carbine
This interaction between the knowing person and the objects of knowledge is a relation that demands honesty and humility.... Think about it. Our situation is one of limited knowledge. Don't we do a disservice in the education of the next generation to pretend otherwise?

Yes, cornelis, we absolutely do. Yet it seems today there are many people who do not extend their time horizon to include the next generation....

Thank you so much for your beautiful essay/post!

110 posted on 10/29/2006 5:54:17 PM PST by betty boop (Beautiful are the things we see...Much the most beautiful those we do not comprehend. -- N. Steensen)
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To: cornelis

I'm in the medical field...

The more I know the more I discover how little we actually know.

With each layer peeled back there is another layer of complexity...


111 posted on 10/29/2006 6:00:41 PM PST by TASMANIANRED (The Internet is the samizdat of liberty..)
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To: TASMANIANRED
With each layer peeled back there is another layer of complexity...

So I hear. With cell motility, what moves the cell? On any given level of observation, we are continually led on to another anterior cause.

112 posted on 10/29/2006 6:04:56 PM PST by cornelis
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To: cornelis

Heisenburg.....The observer plays a role...

God is observing the universe into increasing levels of complexity.

Sure would have the last laugh...


113 posted on 10/29/2006 6:33:08 PM PST by TASMANIANRED (The Internet is the samizdat of liberty..)
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To: cornelis

I try to read this every year. It is very worth the effort.

114 posted on 10/29/2006 6:47:33 PM PST by TASMANIANRED (The Internet is the samizdat of liberty..)
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To: cornelis
[ Think about it. Our situation is one of limited knowledge. Don't we do a disservice in the education of the next generation to pretend otherwise? ]

Life on this planet almost requires a good deal of pretending..
i.e. pretending that we know what we know..

Maybe the pretense keeps us sane.. or saner...

115 posted on 10/29/2006 6:47:59 PM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole.)
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To: hosepipe
Yes, I'd say we must play our act well. I am convinced that the difference between acting well and dubious pretension is that the true actor reaches out to one who does know all. Only false gods fail to honor that. The lyrics of Sheila Walsh come to mind:

"Suddenly I'm falling out of the sky
Don't let me go, or I will die.
Whose hands are these?
On my trapeze?
Take hold of me and rescue me
Or I will be a tragedy.

116 posted on 10/29/2006 7:31:35 PM PST by cornelis
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To: TASMANIANRED

Thank you for the recommendation. I'll have get a copy.


117 posted on 10/29/2006 7:44:16 PM PST by cornelis
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To: betty boop
Which to me gives the lie to the idea of science as an independent "thing in itself." The reduction of science to doctrine -- as is evidently the case with, say, neo-Darwinism -- denies the irremedial contingency and indeterminacy that characterizes man's relation to nature. It seems to me "the observer problem" is alive and well here. Yet it seems to me there must be some Truth "beyond" nature that does not depend on man in order for the world to hold together, thus to make science possible in the first place.

Hugh Ross of Reasons to Believe often points out that science is the interpretation of the facts of nature, not the facts themselves (analogous to how theology is the interpretation of the facts of God's word. Just as there can be good and bad theology, there can be good and bad science. But facts are facts, regardless of the interpretation).

I don't believe an interpretation is possible without being affected by some sort of bias of the worldview of the interpreter. An example might be whether or not a person holds to a dualistic view (body and soul) of human nature - the study of the mind, of ethics (is sociology a science?), etc., are all impacted by how the one doing the studying views the roots of human nature.

In such a view, it doesn't seem (as you point out) that science can be some sort of standalone endeavour, untainted or unaffected by human prejudices.

The unilateral discarding of metaphysics would seem, in a number of areas, to greatly impact how successful science can be at providing satisfactory and/or complete answers.

118 posted on 10/29/2006 8:03:12 PM PST by apologist
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To: Dimensio; cornelis
But the real problem is an advantage: Dimensio says, "The theory of evolution has no inherent political bias." In his view, the fact is evolution. Since evolution is science, voila! ergo-propter-hoc, evolution is without bias or prejudice.

If you believe that the theory of evolution actually has inherent bias, then it is your responsibility to demonstrate as much.

The inherent bias is that metaphysical considerations are not allowed. Evolution must explain all human behaviors and the outcomes of those behaviors. Human free will is not an acceptable factor for consideration, since in a system where, ultimately, ALL behaviors are the product of, and allegedly explainable by, physical processes, there is no such thing as true free will. We are all, as Pearcey states in her book Total Truth, machines made out of meat.

And Pearcey illustrates the logical conclusion of such thinking, by evolutionists, with the examples brought out in the article at the beginning of this thread (e.g., Pinker).

119 posted on 10/29/2006 8:26:07 PM PST by apologist
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To: apologist; Alamo-Girl
I don't believe an interpretation is possible without being affected by some sort of bias of the worldview of the interpreter. An example might be whether or not a person holds to a dualistic view (body and soul) of human nature - the study of the mind, of ethics (is sociology a science?), etc., are all impacted by how the one doing the studying views the roots of human nature.

Oh, I do agree with you, apologist! FWIW I doubt sociology is a science.

I also strongly agree with this:

The unilateral discarding of metaphysics would seem, in a number of areas, to greatly impact how successful science can be at providing satisfactory and/or complete answers.

Well said! Thank you so much for writing!
120 posted on 10/29/2006 8:39:26 PM PST by betty boop (Beautiful are the things we see...Much the most beautiful those we do not comprehend. -- N. Steensen)
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To: betty boop

(: I love you so much!


121 posted on 10/30/2006 2:45:26 AM PST by .30Carbine
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To: apologist; betty boop
Great thread Ms Boop. 8-)

"In such a view, it doesn't seem (as you point out) that science can be some sort of standalone endeavour, untainted or unaffected by human prejudices."

It would also vary in degree depending on the subject matter.When the subject matter is origins it seems (at least to me) to be in full tilt mode.

I've followed most of the crevo threads for as long as there's been crevo threads.99% of the time in lurker mode.To be honest I'm not up to arguing the topic and I would hazard a guess and say that neither are 99.9% of people.

In the end it boils right down to 'trust me'.

Great article bb.

God bless

122 posted on 10/30/2006 3:54:34 AM PST by mitch5501 (typical)
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To: apologist
bias is that metaphysical considerations are not allowed

That's a bias. Usually criticism are the kind that says you're wrong, show me the evidence, give me proof, and so on. But this is a bias that isolates the subject matter in a privileged way so that it bars evidence and frames the debate.

It's a bias, apologist, but not inherent or intrinsic to all theories of evolution. Dimensio never forgets to bait his hook.

123 posted on 10/30/2006 5:15:23 AM PST by cornelis
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To: apologist
The inherent bias is that metaphysical considerations are not allowed.

This is a limitation of the scope of science, not a "bias" specifically of the theory of evolution.

Evolution must explain all human behaviors and the outcomes of those behaviors.

Do you have evidence that it does not?

ALL behaviors are the product of, and allegedly explainable by, physical processes, there is no such thing as true free will. We are all, as Pearcey states in her book Total Truth, machines made out of meat.

Please justify this claim with evidence.

And Pearcey illustrates the logical conclusion of such thinking, by evolutionists, with the examples brought out in the article at the beginning of this thread (e.g., Pinker).

How does this demonstrate a "bias" with the theory of evolution? For what, exactly, are you arguing?
124 posted on 10/30/2006 5:57:35 AM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: cornelis

I do not believe it an unreasonable conclusion that you were presenting what you believe to be my position as a means of mocking it, as evidenced by your comparison to Wolf Blitzer.


125 posted on 10/30/2006 6:00:25 AM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Dimensio

If the shoe don't fit, Dimensio, don't wear it.


126 posted on 10/30/2006 6:08:57 AM PST by cornelis
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To: cornelis

You have yet to provide any evidence to show that my statement that the theory of evolution has no inherent bias is incorrect. Comparing me to Wolf Blitzer is not a substitute for providing actual evidence.


127 posted on 10/30/2006 6:16:59 AM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: cornelis; apologist; Dimensio; Alamo-Girl; hosepipe
But this is a bias that isolates the subject matter in a privileged way so that it bars evidence and frames the debate.

Indeed. In Dimensio's case, it appears to be a methodological bias (i.e., "methodological naturalism" or even "metaphysical naturalism"). But the one so biased rarely questions the adequacy or suitability of the method to the given question at hand. It is simply assumed the method is competent; that is, the method is simply taken on faith. Oftentimes it ends up being a filter that, as you say cornelis, "bars evidence and frames the debate."

128 posted on 10/30/2006 6:21:11 AM PST by betty boop (Beautiful are the things we see...Much the most beautiful those we do not comprehend. -- N. Steensen)
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To: Dimensio
Dimensio, I do you a favor by saying you are right. Now I need to prove that to you?

Again, if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.

129 posted on 10/30/2006 6:25:05 AM PST by cornelis
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To: betty boop

The the motive for a "methodological naturalism" is in some instances warranted. There is an analogous method taught in literature classes, which the famous poet John Keats called "negative capability." It has something to do with suspending judgment for the sake of being open to observation. I guess the problem is that scholars get stuck in their method being so happy with their success. This is not particular to scientists. This is a habit of the mind, a particularly nasty one.


130 posted on 10/30/2006 6:31:43 AM PST by cornelis
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To: mitch5501; Alamo-Girl; cornelis; apologist; Dimensio
Thank you, mitch!

You wrote: "When the subject matter is origins it [prejudice] seems (at least to me) to be in full tilt mode." Oh, to me, too. But that stands to reason: On the question of origins, no one can say they really know anything, because no one was "there" to observe the origin.

Now the scientific method is based on direct observation and replicable experiments. Thus it would appear it really has no way to deal with origin events in the first place.

Neils Bohr suggested that the origin of life, for instance, is either "undecidable" or just flat-out "unknowable" on the basis of the scientific method.

But people constructing world views need to have an origin. Otherwise they do not have a comprehensive account of the world they view. So yes, they have to go into "full-tilt mode" to come up with an origin "theory" (which really would be simply a conjecture). The point is science is no help to them on that score, so ultimately they must have recourse to a "faith statement."

I'm not terribly willing to accept the "trust me" formula. Not for the benefit of people who play fast and loose with the limits of science.

God bless you too, Mitch!

131 posted on 10/30/2006 6:55:44 AM PST by betty boop (Beautiful are the things we see...Much the most beautiful those we do not comprehend. -- N. Steensen)
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To: cornelis; Alamo-Girl; apologist; Dimensio; mitch5501; YHAOS; FreedomProtector
The the motive for a "methodological naturalism" is in some instances warranted.

I readily grant your point, and agree that "it has something to do with suspending judgment for the sake of being open to observation." IOW, to suppress "subjective" elements, so to enable a purely "objective" assessment of the data.

I have a funny story that sheds light on this issue. Albert Einstein and Neils Bohr were very close friends. Einstein as you probably know never accepted quantum theory, even though we was one of the earliest contributors to its development (i.e., his work on light). He used to tease his friend Bohr, who insisted that it is the business of science to make descriptions of observations, and you can't describe what you haven't actually observed.

On that basis, Einstein would say, "If Niels does not observe the moon in the sky, then for him the moon does not exist." Therefore, Einstein argued, Bohr was relentlessly subjective in his approach to science.

But this is to misunderstand Bohr, I believe. Bohr was amazingly epistemologically zealous -- presumably in the attempt to keep things as objective as possible. He emphasized direct observation as the sine qua non of scientific investigation. He knows the moon is up there in the sky. His point was he couldn't say anything about it as a scientist until he had observed it for himself. Only on that basis could a scientific description be made.

Bohr (and Einstein) offered some of the earliest descriptions of the so-called observer problem. It is evidently manifest in both relativity and quantum theory. However it seems clear to me that the observer problem is "alive and well" in science dealing with the Newtonian "macroworld" (our four-dimensional spacetime world) as well, by simple analogy.

If Bohr is right -- epistemologically speaking -- then it needs to be recognized (IMHO) that even such a widely-accepted theory as Darwinist evolution is to some degree compromised as science, because it rests so much on things that no one has ever directly observed. The accretion of subjective elements is bound to occur over time if that is the case. Thus philosophy inevitably gets smuggled in through the back door, in the end....

132 posted on 10/30/2006 7:35:39 AM PST by betty boop (Beautiful are the things we see...Much the most beautiful those we do not comprehend. -- N. Steensen)
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To: betty boop
f Bohr is right -- epistemologically speaking -- then it needs to be recognized (IMHO) that even such a widely-accepted theory as Darwinist evolution is to some degree compromised as science, because it rests so much on things that no one has ever directly observed.

To what as yet unobserved events do you refer?
133 posted on 10/30/2006 7:53:17 AM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Cicero; betty boop; cornelis; PatrickHenry
Excellent post, Cicero! And a great summing up, cornelis!

Descartes's mind-body problem is certainly one source of the difficulty. But it goes back even further to John of Ockham's nominalism. This is the illusion that if you can't see and touch something, it's not real. Therefore there is no such thing as a tree, or a maple, or an oak. There are only individual trees, maples, and oaks. The individual is more real than the universal. But paradoxically we can only think in universals.

I believe you are "spot on" with the above, Cicero - and I'd like to explore it further.

It seems in the long standing crevo wars, we have often written a benediction to a thread that ended with the conclusion that the two sides were hopelessly divided on universals. One side of combatants often take the Aristotle position looking down and giving a hand wave to "threeness" "redness" "treeness" as you say, pointing only to a particular tree or group of trees. The other side takes the Plato position, looking up to the forms themselves.

It is particularly disturbing to me (and fortunately, fairly rare) when mathematicians take the position that universals do not exist. After all, when they name a variable in a formula, they have declared the universality of the formula itself. The “radius” is the same thing or form regardless of what, where, how or when a particular circle might exist – or not. Thus the formula for calculating the area of a circle is portable across every domain.

The same is true with physicists whose concern is the universal theory itself which of course must be portable across every domain as well.

Often lost in the railing back and forth is the simple observation that mathematics is unreasonably effective in the natural sciences (Eugene Wigner) and vice versa (Cumrum Vafa) – S dualities, mirror symmetries, the Mandelbrot set.

The prime example of this phenomenon was that Einstein was able to pull Reimannian geometry off the shelf to describe general relativity. Reiman could not have known the physical universality of the math he discovered!

If a metaphysical naturalist were reasonable in the matter (as compared to ideological or political motived) – he would admit that the phenomenon squarely attests that universals exist and leaves the door wide open to theology and philosophy - in particular, Logos as betty boop has mentioned here.

IMHO, when the biologists invited the mathematicians and physicists to the table, it was a death wish.

134 posted on 10/30/2006 7:57:39 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: TXnMA; hosepipe; gobucks; marron; Quix; .30Carbine; xzins
Oops, sorry about that. I lost part of my ping list. Please see the above post.
135 posted on 10/30/2006 7:58:55 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; cornelis; Cicero
The “radius” is the same thing or form regardless of what, where, how or when a particular circle might exist – or not. Thus the formula for calculating the area of a circle is portable across every domain.

Excellent insight/example of a (non-material) universal, Alamo-Girl! Kudos!!!

136 posted on 10/30/2006 8:14:00 AM PST by betty boop (Beautiful are the things we see...Much the most beautiful those we do not comprehend. -- N. Steensen)
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To: Dimensio; Alamo-Girl
To what as yet unobserved events do you refer?

Hi Dimensio! Do you mind if we turn this question around, so that I might ask you: What part of evolution theory have you directly observed?

137 posted on 10/30/2006 8:16:10 AM PST by betty boop (Beautiful are the things we see...Much the most beautiful those we do not comprehend. -- N. Steensen)
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To: betty boop
Do you mind if we turn this question around, so that I might ask you: What part of evolution theory have you directly observed?

Remnants in the fossil record, DNA relics across species previously concluded to be closely related, imperfect replication of organisms in biological populations and reproductive success relative to environmental conditions as a result of heriditable traits leading to increased expression of those traits in future populations have all been observed.
138 posted on 10/30/2006 8:23:18 AM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: cornelis

Am I to take it, then, that you agree with my statement that the theory of evolution has no political bias?


139 posted on 10/30/2006 8:24:57 AM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: Dimensio

That's plain English. But not the whole story. The "facts" are never enough.


140 posted on 10/30/2006 8:29:26 AM PST by cornelis
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To: cornelis
That's plain English. But not the whole story. The "facts" are never enough.

What more, exactly, do you propose is involved?
141 posted on 10/30/2006 8:35:43 AM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: betty boop; Alamo-Girl; cornelis; .30Carbine; Whosoever
[ Bohr (and Einstein) offered some of the earliest descriptions of the so-called observer problem. It is evidently manifest in both relativity and quantum theory. However it seems clear to me that the observer problem is "alive and well" in science dealing with the Newtonian "macroworld" (our four-dimensional spacetime world) as well, by simple analogy. ]

I deduce Bohr and Einstein are BOTH right.. in attitude..

That is, faith, should be an operator in any formula.. as, by the way, it is in the presence of infinity.. For what is infinity except faith in that beyond your conceptual grasp..

I observe, My personal situation like that.. I look at my body that is obvious and wonder about my spirit which seems to be.. Can't prove my spirit is infinite but I can prove my body isn't infinite(to myself).. by the very seemingly real subject of death.. That I observe(things that die)..

"The Observer" is indeed the prime requisite of any conversation.. For the observation post drives any deductions.. And how can any two humans occupy the same exact observation post?.. i.e. Einstien and Bohr's views of physics and other things....

Relativity and Quantum Theory are tails wagging "the GoD"..
The Bible might be the best "science book" of ALL...

I know, I know, I'm taking my meds..

142 posted on 10/30/2006 8:39:30 AM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole.)
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To: Alamo-Girl

Alamo-Girl, I didn't know you were into these areas. I agree entirely with what you say.

Worth reading for the situation we find ourselves in are the later books of Alastair MacIntyre, written after his conversion from Marxism, especially his two key books, "After Virtue," and "Whose Justice? Which Rationality?" He plausibly suggests that we have three camps or communities in the contemporary western world: traditionalists, modernists, and postmodernists, and that they all talk past each other because their fundamental premises or axioms are from entirely different worlds and do not overlap.

We have certainly witnessed that phenomenon on numerous Darwin threads in the forum, where the Darwinists simply repeat the same mantras again and again, rather than respond to their opposition's arguments. I think that was because they simply couldn't SEE the arguments. Their world view (Weltanschauung) doesn't permit them to. Their answer is pure and simple: Darwin is science; if you disagree with Darwinism you are hopelessly ignorant; so we will turn to the activist courts to prevent you from passing your superstitious ignorance on to the next American generation.

Another book I'd recommend is by Thomas Nagel, who is said to be one of the three or four top living philosophers.

http://philosophy.fas.nyu.edu/object/thomasnagel

He is an agnostic, but he is also a truth seeker, as few philosophers are in today's academia. His book "The Last Word" is an effort to understand how, in a purely material world without God, there can be such a thing as universal knowledge. And why does the order of the universe seem to correspond to the order of our thinking? He comes very close to admitting what he cannot, as an agnostic philosopher, admit: that the only way to account for universal knowledge that can be communicated in objective language is religious. Indeed, that something like the Logos is necessary. He does not make that jump, but his book has been much discussed in religious circles by Christian philosophers, for example in a Catholic academic journal I get called, coincidentally, Logos.

Although somewhat off the immediate subject, two other books I have found extremely valuable in thinking about the nature of reality are Lynch's "Christ and Apollo," and Ralph McInerny's "Aquinas and Analogy." The latter is highly specialized but I think more important than most academic books. Incidentally, McInerny also writes detective novels.

Much of this boils down to the meaning of the word realism. In classical philosophy, the real is what lies behind the phenomena. In modernist philosopy, the real is the material. But modernist philosophy is incapable of sustaining that argument, and degenerates into scholastic specialization that has made most academic philosophy departments completely irrelevant to the real world.


143 posted on 10/30/2006 8:39:48 AM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero

I should add that postmodernist philosophy is even more hopeless. It posits that there is no objective reality; everything is relative; "truth" is meaningless; and therefore that the purpose of academic argument is to change the language so that everyone is forced to agree with what you say.

That's basically what Heidegger, who lies behind the more popular Derrida and outweighs him, did. It has been said that if you spend enough time trying to understand Heidegger, it will drive you mad, which was evidently his intention. At least, to drive you out of the real world and into his world.


144 posted on 10/30/2006 8:45:31 AM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero; betty boop; cornelis
Much of this boils down to the meaning of the word realism. In classical philosophy, the real is what lies behind the phenomena. In modernist philosopy, the real is the material. But modernist philosophy is incapable of sustaining that argument, and degenerates into scholastic specialization that has made most academic philosophy departments completely irrelevant to the real world.

Oh, is betty boop ever going to love your post!

We have shaken down this very misunderstanding of the term "realism" on a previous thread. And it is an important one, because if the correspondent can get Plato off the table, he can fabricate his own "reality" to justify himself (at least in his own mind LOL!)

Thank you too for all the great reading suggestions - which I'm sure betty boop will also be interesting in reading.

You might be interested in knowing that she and I have just completed a book of our own addressing these very issues.

145 posted on 10/30/2006 8:50:20 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Cicero; betty boop
I got so excited, I forgot to say "thank you for the encouragements!" to both of you. Sorry about that!
146 posted on 10/30/2006 8:52:11 AM PST by Alamo-Girl
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To: Alamo-Girl; betty boop; cornelis

Thanks, Alamo-Girl. I should have addressed my earlier posts to all of you.

I'm fascinated to learn about the projected book. I happen to be in the field of English literature, and have touched on these matters in some of my books, but have not had formal training in philosophy, which is probably just as well, all things considered. There aren't too many places that teach it properly.

But I was fortunate enough to have had a course at Harvard that let Plato and Aristotle speak for themselves, and another course that let the medieval philosophers speak for themselves. The latter was taught by Henry Osborne Taylor, a proper New England WASP who nevertheless had a real sympathy for Catholic medieval thought and civilization, and recognized that civilization was transmitted and rebuilt by heroes like Gregory the Great, Boniface, and Thomas Aquinas. That put me onto further reading on my own.


147 posted on 10/30/2006 9:06:54 AM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Dimensio; Alamo-Girl; cornelis; YHAOS; hosepipe
Remnants in the fossil record, DNA relics across species previously concluded to be closely related, imperfect replication of organisms in biological populations and reproductive success relative to environmental conditions as a result of heriditable traits leading to increased expression of those traits in future populations have all been observed.

Thank you for your reply, Dimensio. Seems like impressive evidence!

Still, it seems to me that each of the items on your list is open to question, or other interpretation. For instance, the fossil record. I understand it still has "gaps," but people are working to "fill them in" by searching for more fossils, especially from those time periods when the fossil record seems scant (e.g., the pre-Cambrian). But it seems to me that you can pile up all the fossils you want to; but that wouldn't SHOW a transition of one species into an entirely different species. Such a transition would have to be observed before we can say that it really occurred -- at least if we are going to be as "epistemologically rigorous" as Niels Bohr says a scientist must be. Because something seems intuitive enough -- and granted, macroevolution seems "intuitive" -- is not enough to establish scientific rigor.

I'm not aware Bohr directly spoke to macroevolution theory; but then I'm still studying him. (If you know something about any statements he's made on that subject, I'd be grateful if you'd fill me in.) However, based on what I do know so far, he was famous for saying that valid science is all about making descriptions of the natural world, and you can't describe what you haven't actually seen.

But maybe this is what constitutes a difference between physics and biology. Still, they are both branches of science, and both are informed by the scientific method.

As for DNA relics across species, here's a "what if" for you: What if all living species share a single, I almost want to say (but won't) universal common genome as the basic stuff of life? And that there is another, as yet undetected principle at work here (e.g., successful communication of information) that "customizes" the expression of the genome for each individual species? -- undetected because not looked for? It seems that could explain why humans and the higher apes express the genome almost identically; and it could obviate the necessity of saying that apes gave rise to humans.

That's just a conjecture, of course. It's occurred to other people as well. Are Darwinian theorists interested in looking into a proposition like that?

Ditto for the population studies. I don't know what light such truly shed on the problem of one species arising from an entirely different predecessor species. The studies may be perfectly valid for microevolution, yet not necessarily furnish evidence for macroevolution.

But then, I am a very skeptical person!

Thank you for writing, Dimensio!

148 posted on 10/30/2006 9:16:13 AM PST by betty boop (Beautiful are the things we see...Much the most beautiful those we do not comprehend. -- N. Steensen)
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To: Dimensio; Alamo-Girl; betty boop; mitch5501; RunningWolf
That's a good question. Betty boop has already been answering it.

Friedrich Hayek also calls the problem a prejudice. He says it is an abuse of reason. He wrote a whole book on it: The Counter-Revolution of Science. Studies in the Abuse of Reason.

It's been a while since I read it, but I should look at it again. Part deals with scientism. If you haven't run across that word here before you can read about it on this thread. It describes scientism as that bias or prejudice that insists that "that truth and knowledge of reality can be derived only as outcomes of the scientific method."

Hayek himself quotes Adam Smith on the abuse:

Systems which have universally owed their origin to the lucubrations of those who were acquainted with one art, but ignorant of the other; who therefore explained to themselves the phenomena, in that which was strange to them, by those in that which was familiar.

Those who only do biology and no philosophy would have difficulty getting through the book. But I'm sure that the philosophy of science should eventually become part of their studies and that students should not follow any teacher who would suppress that part of science as being irrelevant.

Hayek describes scientism as follows:

a mechanical and uncritical application of habits of thought to fields different from those in which they have been formed. The scientistic as distinguished from the scientific view is not an unprejudiced but a very prejudiced approach which, before it has considered its subject, claims to know what is the most appropriate way of investigating it.

You'll that this lists at least two things involved: the omission of information and the unwarranted application of a method or principle.
149 posted on 10/30/2006 9:21:22 AM PST by cornelis
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To: Alamo-Girl; Cicero; cornelis
Oh, is betty boop ever going to love your post!

Oh, is that ever a fact, Alamo-Girl! I simply loved this observation:

Much of this boils down to the meaning of the word realism. In classical philosophy, the real is what lies behind the phenomena. In modernist philosopy, the real is the material. But modernist philosophy is incapable of sustaining that argument, and degenerates into scholastic specialization that has made most academic philosophy departments completely irrelevant to the real world.
Amen to that, Cicero!!! Kudos!

Plus I'm grateful to you Cicero for the book recommendations. I've read A. MacIntyre's After Virtue, an excellent work. Seems the others you name are "must-haves," as well!

Cicero, please keep me on your ping list for whenever you ping.

Thank you all, Alamo-Girl, Cicero, cornelis, for this fascinating discussion!

150 posted on 10/30/2006 9:30:12 AM PST by betty boop (Beautiful are the things we see...Much the most beautiful those we do not comprehend. -- N. Steensen)
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