Posted on 11/07/2006 2:34:10 AM PST by SheLion
I stopped to drop off a carton of cigarettes for a disabled veteran at a nursing home. They have a bleak area outside where they can enjoy a cigarette at fixed intervals. He was reading an absentee ballot about Proposition 86.
He said, “This is crazy! We can’t afford $70 for a carton of cigarettes. That’s the most prejudiced, hateful proposition I ever read.”
Then he asked me, “Can this pass?”
I said, “Are you old enough to remember bus segregation, because some people didn’t think some people looked as nice as they did?”
He said, “Haven’t we learned anything from history? Who’s promoting this crime, this time?”
I said, “They are people with a drug addiction. The drug of venomous, vindictive, cold-hearted hate. A drug ten times worse than heroin. It forms a hard callous around the heart, like a stone, and destroys logical, reasoning ability, so they can’t quit.”
He lifted his head from his hand, and looking up, through eyes like a saint’s, he said, “Then I feel sorry for them. Their burden is greater than mine.”
Not wanting to contaminate the virtue of his words, I said, “Yes, I guess we should feel sorry for them.”
What I really thought was, the trail of their whole life is littered with their victims. If they could eliminate every smoker on earth, they would just channel another fanatical, inflictive vendetta. It’s their drug of choice. They can’t quit.
Gangs, organized crime, and terrorists all love 86 because it will give them a new smuggling operation to make $$$ off of.
Well, if this passes, then we can pretty much know who is raping in the illegal money!
Huge cigarette taxes that don't do anything except make more pork for politicians.
When you're too gutless to cut spending, stick it to the smokers and tell them it's for their own good!
Prohibition has never solved a problem yet. Someone will find that niche, good or bad, and make money of it.
I just read the prop ... an EXTRA $2.60 per pack - you know I don't feel the same way about smoking around other people as you do...but damn... an extra $2.60 is getting into Boston Tea Party Territory.
I've got to agree with you on this - at that point its not really about just taxation anymore - its back door prohibition and an invitation to smuggling.
Canada tried this years ago, and so many people smuggled in cigarettes that it was worthless.
If I still lived in Arizona I would be tempted to make big bucks circumventing liberals.
And did you see the states "impartial" analysis?
http://www.voterguide.ss.ca.gov/props/prop86/analysis86.html
It talks about every possible impact EXCEPT the impact on the people being taxed.
Exactly! And it's a Legal Product for heaven's sake. I wonder if any other group would put up with having their Twinkies or Beer and Wine taxed this way. I doubt it.
And when something hits our Seniors and Vets, it's going way over the top.
Maine already raised the taxes to $2 dollars on a pack and $20 dollars on a carton. Can you believe this?
Sure, so the general non-smoking public will just see the highlights and think that this is a "good thing." After all, our lawmakers support it. It MUST be good.
~barf!
The crazies that are calif will kill one of their golden gooses if this passes. The socialist state uses ciggy taxes to pay for all kinds of crap and if this passes folks will quit in droves. Then tax revenues will actually fall leaving the politicos to scramble for other ways to steal from the populace.
>>The crazies that are calif will kill one of their golden gooses if this passes. The socialist state uses ciggy taxes to pay for all kinds of crap and if this passes folks will quit in droves. Then tax revenues will actually fall leaving the politicos to scramble for other ways to steal from the populace.<<
I talked to a CEO buddy in Cali yesterday who said these are "good taxes" because they were carefully crafted to raise revenue without driving industry out of the state...
I'm voting no because I've just about reached the 'if it's a tax no matter what tax vote no' category. I'll have to read it, but does it prevent getting the product from out of state? Heck, I'd just have my friends buy and send me cartons from NC, they are 10 to 12 dollars less a carton now without this tax.
Well, maybe one-fourth will quit smoking, but the majority will start rolling their own or crossing the state borders, etc. Where there is a will there is a way. And don't forget: people are still ordering cigarettes off of the Internet.
That's the trouble with this............the lawmakers talk out of both sides of their mouths! They say they want a smoke free state, but then they raise taxes on cigarettes to balance their stupid budgets. We all know they can't have both!
Is there really anything such as a good tax?
WHAT industry???? The mom and pop's struggling to make ends meet and keeping their little businesses open? I doubt very much if this is going to help any of them!
I live in New Hampshire where the tobacco and alcohol taxes are lower than any other New England state. We have stores on just about every road coming into NH that survive mainly on selling cigs and liquor. The majority of the license plates in the parking lot are not from NH.
Oh I remember! When we used to travel in and out of Maine, we would make one last stop at the NH State Liquor store. You know the one. Right there on the Maine border? Lots cheaper!
Mainers who are lucky enough to live close to the NH border spend their money there, and not in Maine. Is there any wonder? :)
>>Is there really anything such as a good tax?<<
Well, there are taxes that are less fair and more outrageous - therefore, the logically must be taxes that are at least more fair and less outrageous.
But good taxes, no....
Now some user fees I like because they cut consumption of government services that people will overuse if they are "free."
Like if a $5 fee to use the emergancy room for a non-emergancy at a public hospital cuts usage by 40% then thats a good user fee.
I like user fees much more then additional taxes cause they make the folks that use the service pay instead of one who doesn't.
Such as parks, bridges, roads, pools etc.
And what they don't tell you about 86...it applies to all tobacco products - not just ciggies. The price of cigars and pipe tobacco will almost DOUBLE, throwing most cigar/tobacco stores out of business. So all you folks who enjoy the camaraderie of a good smoke with friends at the "local"...better do what's right here!
$70 a carton????? This means Arnold will be the only one who can afford to smoke! Texas cig taxes are going up a dollar a pack on Jan. 1
>>WHAT industry???? The mom and pop's struggling to make ends meet and keeping their little businesses open? I doubt very much if this is going to help any of them!<<
He runs a media company.
Looking up Cali's GDP on Wikipedia was amazing.
This surprised me
>>California's overall tax burden of $10.66 per $100 of personal income is slightly above the $10.43 average for the United States.[16]<<
And this really surprsised me... I knew there were wealthy parts of California but look at some of these towns average income
1076 Tobin, California – Plumas County – $2,584
1075 Belden, California – Plumas County – $3,141
1074 East Orosi, California – Tulare County – $4,984
1073 London, California – Tulare County – $5,632
1072 Cantua Creek, California – Fresno County – $5,693
1071 Indian Falls, California – Plumas County – $5,936
1070 Westley, California – Stanislaus County – $6,137
1069 Cutler, California – Tulare County – $6,254
1068 Mecca, California – Riverside County – $6,389
1067 Richgrove, California – Tulare County – $6,415
I bet $70 for a carton of cigarettes is really gonna hurt if you make $5000 a year.
I have been buying cigarettes and liquor in NH for Years....
According to MA - I'm a tea-tottling non-smoker.
Many people I know don't even blip on the screen as smokers...or drinkers.
MA smoking rate went down? Yeah- right....
Smoking isn't for everyone, we all agree. But it is still a legal product and by voting for such a bill will affect everyone. Not just smokers. It will have the trickle down affect. We don't want that!
Nancy sure wants it, but we don't even want NANCY!!
Well, California is rich. And it takes a lot of money to live there. But wages are high. However, there are still Senior's on a fixed income and lots of our Veterans live out there, and they don't make a lot of money either. If this passes, it will really hurt these two groups of people.
Yeah, this isn't about preventing the masses from getting something that is bad for their health. This is all about money. If cigarettes are so bad, ban them!
Taxing the socks off of addicts is sickening.....Politico's will do anything, absolutely anything for a tax buck. Disgusting.
The smokers on a fixed income might consider moving. Why stay when there is no job to keep them there?
Does anyone who doesn't smoke actually believe that the politicians will simply do without the tax revenues they've gotten used to getting from cigarettes when they finally force everyone to quit smoking?
The smokers on a fixed income might consider moving. Why stay when there is no job to keep them there?
I'm talking about Seniors that have retired and are living off of Social Security.
Does anyone who doesn't smoke actually believe that the politicians will simply do without the tax revenues they've gotten used to getting from cigarettes when they finally force everyone to quit smoking?
Oh heck no! They love their little pet programs that the smokers tax dollars are providing for them. If that tobacco tax money dries up, they will go after something else. We can all count on it.,
The smokers on a fixed income might consider moving. Why stay when there is no job to keep them there?
I'm talking about Seniors that have retired and are living off of Social Security.
Unanticipated consequences ahead bump.
We are going to get hit with a 1.00 pack tax here in Texas after the first. I will not pay it I will quit first.
Well, I started rolling my own 4 years ago. Especially after Maine slapped a $20 dollar a carton tax on cigarettes! I can roll a beautiful carton for a little under $8 dollars! I really love it!
Can't stand the high taxes?
Afraid to order off of the Internet?
Then start rolling your own!!! I find everything but the machine downtown at the local Smoke Shop. Also, Rite Aid and grocery stores also sell the bags of tobacco and the filtered tubes.
I roll out a beautiful carton for a little under $8 dollars. Premiums in my state are now up to $45-$50 a carton. Can you imagine the money I have saved over the past 4 years since I now roll my own? It's mind boggling.
under $50.00
Check StuffYourOwn for prices on tobacco
$1.99 for 200 filtered tubes
Make your own cigarettes for as low as $6.99 per Carton! Smoke Quality FILTERED cigarettes that you make yourself using cigarette tubes (like a cigarette without the Cigarette tobacco), our cigarette making machines, and our "roll your own" cigarette tobacco.
-Stop Paying High Cigarette Taxes
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and
Thanks for the ping!
Depends. What are the health care costs of smokers. I am not an anti smoking ninny at all. But smokers do miss more days of work with colds because it hits them harder. Smokers do get debilitating diseases that the state picks up. For a personal choice. Which is fine. Smoke em if you got em. But, let's not pretend that other tax payers and businesses aren't paying alot of money for that choice.
Forget the long sick absentee problem. My mother in law smokes 3 packs a day, minimum. How productive can you be if you need to have a smoke break every 20 minutes? If I "needed" a quarter pounder with cheese every 20 minutes to make it through the day, my work output would stink.
That isn't my point. High taxation is and once the tax base from ciggy taxes disappears as a result of costing too much, they will come at you from a different angle for those taxes.
Yes it bothered me that when I had my business smokers tried to take 10 minutes off every hour for a ciggy break while the rest who didn't were supposed to continue working.
But then again folks with kids take more time for whatever reason whether it be childs sickness or soccer games or whatever.
Also when in the military they used to give ya 5 every hour or so to."smoke em if ya got em". that encouraged many to smoke just for the added break time.
The crazies that are calif will kill one of their golden gooses if this passes. The socialist state uses ciggy taxes to pay for all kinds of crap and if this passes folks will quit in droves.
______________________________________________________
Ironically, Meathead Rob Reiner used to be against further cig tax increases in CA because it would threaten the revenue from his pet project do gooder pre-k for all agenda. Now that he is gone, they are finally free. Take a gander at the future to see what will happen to the $2.60 money grab from hard working Americans.
http://www.reason.org/commentaries/dalmia_20060316.shtml
And that's only if the cash cow continues. People aren't as dumb as the liberals want to believe.
Big Mac lovers, you are next. This was a great piece by Radley Balko from Cato. It's all about socialized health care.
http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=5226
"This creeping socialization of medicine gives government new license to meddle with our private affairs. It creates a climate where excessive state interference in the most intimate of personal matters – what we put into our mouths – becomes not only acceptable among the electorate, but desirable. After all, if that cheeseburger you're eating clogs your arteries and puts you in the hospital, your poor choices will be reflected in my health insurance premiums. If you're on Medicare or Medicaid, it'll show up in my taxes.
That's exactly the argument the government put forward in the summer of 2004 when the Department of Health and Human Services announced that Medicare would consider covering the costs of obesity treatments, including diet plans, counseling, and gastro-bypass surgery, all new frontiers for preventative government intervention. HHS officials insisted that the change would save taxpayers money over the long haul if obesity were prevented or treated before the ill-health effects associated with the condition begin to present themselves.
It isn't difficult to see how this argument could be applied in a larger sense – that we need to tax fatty or sugary foods, for example, to save everyone money on health insurance premiums and to keep the obesity problem from bankrupting Medicare and Medicaid. In fact, that exact argument has been made – and by a credentialed conservative, no less. Writing on National Review Online, David Frum wrote:
And as Americans struggle with an epidemic of obesity - and the ensuing costs to the taxpayer - conservatives who favor (as almost all conservatives do favor) Medicare and Medicaid need to ask themselves whether their easy libertarian attitude to the worst practices of the fast food industry retains its relevance. Big Gulp drinks and super-sized fries are making America sick - and you are paying the bill. A little moderation would cure a lot of medical and fiscal ills; and a little incentive might induce that moderation.
It's bad enough hearing that kind of talk from the left. But when it comes from the right, too, it's a bad harbinger for what might be ahead.
George Will had a great piece about this topic too. His point was that this socialism only works if sales of cigarettes remain brisk forever.
Good job Eric,
Thanks
Big business opportunity to sell cigarettes by the carton from Tijuana. Using US mail, 1 carton at at time, no duties, no taxes.
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