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`Purpose' (Driven Life) pastor has pulpit for Obama (Rick Warren Courts Dems)
Chicago Tribune ^ | 11/16/06

Posted on 11/16/2006 5:33:58 AM PST by Mr. Brightside

WASHINGTON -- Like many fellow Democratic politicians, Sen. Barack Obama is no stranger to the pulpit.

But in December, Obama will go where few progressive Democrats usually venture--to a large, conservative evangelical church that boasts a Sunday attendance of more than 20,000 people.

Even more unusual is that he'll attend at the invitation of megachurch Pastor Rick Warren, evangelical icon and author of the popular Christian book "The Purpose-Driven Life."

Aides to Obama say he will appear at Saddleback Church in Lake Forest, Calif., on Dec. 1, World AIDS Day.

"Sen. Obama has a deep respect for Mr. Warren's commitment to fighting AIDS and poverty," said Obama spokesman Tommy Vietor.

While he was working on his latest book, "The Audacity of Hope," Obama asked Warren to help by reading one of his draft chapters. Warren issued the invitation to Obama to speak at the church next month.

The messages that Friday will focus on AIDS and HIV, a key area of ministry for Saddleback Church. While many conservative Christians have shied away from AIDS because of their discomfort with its connections to premarital sex and homosexuality, Warren and his wife, church co-founder Kay Warren, have been vocal advocates for patients living with the disease.

Shortly before the release of his latest book, Obama issued a call to progressives to shed bias against religious people and to recognize "overlapping values."

(Excerpt) Read more at chicagotribune.com ...


TOPICS: News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: antichrist; dixiechicks2; obama; purposedriven; rickwarren; trainwreckinprogress; traitor; warren
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To: xzins; jude24; P-Marlowe
I've defended Warren in issues of faith in the past.

As I have, too. And each time I do I ask for specifics from his detractors but those specifics are never provided.

However, I think he's wrong for siding with the global warming folks because the science is not yet there. (Although bible prophecy is with him on an eventual "warming."

I with you there, on both points. ;-)

101 posted on 11/16/2006 10:38:05 AM PST by scripter ("If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." Romans 12:18)
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To: jude24
Fascinating. I completely agree that we should work together with those politically different from ourselves. I also believe politics and church don't mix well. I don't care for some of the hard right positions espoused by some here.

Yet there is no way I could support someone like Obama because of his support for government solutions/socialistic predisposition.

Do you believe yourself to be representative of the Evangelical movement as a whole?
102 posted on 11/16/2006 10:40:35 AM PST by pollyannaish
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To: jude24
A follower of Christ should not be friendly to any concerns of the emergent church. Your posted statements relative to orthodoxy, and so forth, smack of complete emergent speak.

What they mean by "christianese" is the actual biblical definitions/meanings of salvation, atonement, sin, repentance, Word of God, prayer, holiness, kingdom of God and etc. They don't like the actual biblical definitions...so they are revising them (making another gospel).

I'm not aware of very many Emergents who are Magesterial Protestants

That is okay...I am not aware of many Emergents who are really Christians!

Any disciple/friend of Brian Mclaren, and the like, are an enemy of the church (or at least acting like one).

103 posted on 11/16/2006 10:40:57 AM PST by pby
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To: jude24

this is a conservative site, what are you doing here?


104 posted on 11/16/2006 10:43:41 AM PST by Halls (God, please grant me the serenity to accept what I can not change....)
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To: Mr. Brightside
Rick Warren is a self serving humanist financed by YOUR ignorance of the Bible.
105 posted on 11/16/2006 10:44:10 AM PST by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God) .)
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To: pollyannaish
Do you believe yourself to be representative of the Evangelical movement as a whole?

Definitely not of the entire Evangelical movement, but there is a vocal minority which is starting to push back - and they may make up the majority of the twenty-something youth.

I don't care for some of the hard right positions espoused by some here.

Those hard-right positions took a Limbaugh Republican, and turned him into an Independent Moderate.

106 posted on 11/16/2006 10:47:26 AM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: jude24

Are you a twenty-something?


107 posted on 11/16/2006 10:49:33 AM PST by pollyannaish
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To: Mr. Brightside
While many conservative Christians have shied away from AIDS because of their discomfort with its connections to premarital sex and homosexuality...

MY conservative Christian church has not - as a matter of fact, we have an active AIDS ministry and do what we can to help those afflicted with this disease.

Yet another smear on Christians.
108 posted on 11/16/2006 10:49:47 AM PST by reagan_fanatic (The fool hath said in his heart, there is no God." (Psalm 53:1))
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To: Mr. Brightside

See here :

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1739649/posts

Rick Warren seems to be coddling up to the Syrian regime too.


109 posted on 11/16/2006 10:50:17 AM PST by SirLinksalot
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To: pby
What they mean by "christianese" is the actual biblical definitions/meanings of salvation, atonement, sin, repentance, Word of God, prayer, holiness, kingdom of God and etc. They don't like the actual biblical definitions...so they are revising them (making another gospel).

I'm not familiar enough with the Emergent movement to have a fully informed opinion. The only emergent church I am familiar enough with is as theologically conservative as any other church - and I know that they certainly do not redefine away "salvation," "atonement," etc.

That is okay...I am not aware of many Emergents who are really Christians!

There's tares in every church - including yours. Your point being?

Any disciple/friend of Brian Mclaren, and the like, are an enemy of the church

One can recognize that they have legitimate concerns without being a "friend or disciple" of theirs.

110 posted on 11/16/2006 10:50:59 AM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: pollyannaish

Yes.


111 posted on 11/16/2006 10:51:25 AM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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To: reagan_fanatic

Your church is correct. Jesus never chose not to heal somebody on the basis that "sinners deserve what they get."

What do any of us "deserve"? His love extends to everybody.


112 posted on 11/16/2006 10:56:15 AM PST by Mr. Brightside
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To: jude24

Curious where Senator Obama stands on the issues?

http://www.ontheissues.org/Senate/Barack_Obama.htm

If you don't want to read the listing here are a few:

promotes abortion

supports Roe v.s. Wade

supports EMBRYONIC stem cell research (not made clear on the link)

anti gun

healthcares is a right

promotes homosexuality (ah, doesn't discriminate against it as being wrong)

against capital punishment


113 posted on 11/16/2006 11:10:58 AM PST by Halls (God, please grant me the serenity to accept what I can not change....)
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To: jude24
Ok thanks. I kind of thought so and just wanted to make sure.

First, please understand that the MAJORITY of us on the right are not what you see here with the hard right Buchanan/Tancredo contingent. They are much louder here, than in the movement as a whole. And guys like Micheal Savage are not for real. Here...or on the radio. They are unappeasable rabblerousers who play their parts to perfection, but never really have any significance in public life. My advice: Ignore them. They are not the party, nor are they representative of the right.

While I completely respect your right—and obligation—to look to all parties for solutions to the problems we face in our country and abroad, I am concerned you may be doing so without the context that history offers. Having never lived under solely democrat governance, I fear that you have no real idea what a Carteresque man Obama is. Carter and Obama sound very similar...from their commitment to God to their support of government solutions. Living during the Carter administration was a complete and utter nightmare, as was the administration of Johnson who I do not remember well, but have heard stories.

As a twenty-something, I was very much in your shoes. Heck, I voted for Dukakis (Hangs head in shame.) But as I grew older and began to understand the stakes I realized just how smart our side is...that common sense and understanding human nature always trumps great theories and pretty words. It comes down to this: Democrats sound much better on paper than they function in real life. Great in theory, stupid in every day life.

So why say this? Years ago, there were folks that warned me of what the left really stood for and I, in my youthful arrogance and idealism, ignored them. You may do the same...but I wanted to at least take the chance to say to you, what so many good and decent people took the time to say to me years ago.

It's stuck with me ever since and today I often remember just how right they were. I just didn't want to let this opportunity to offer you a small piece of that to you. Those folks ended up improving my own life because they took the time to plant the seed.

I wish you all the best in your search.

114 posted on 11/16/2006 11:11:55 AM PST by pollyannaish
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To: Halls; jude24

I kid you not: a lot of evangelical Christians would see no problem with half of Obama's platform you described: no death penalty, complete government-paid (i.e. taxpayers-paid) healthcare, and anti-gun. You can't use "results of studies show..." to form arguments: to Christians they are on the line of empricism and thus "humanist".


115 posted on 11/16/2006 11:14:48 AM PST by NZerFromHK (The US Founding is what makes Britain and USA separated by much more than a common language.)
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To: Mr. Brightside
Barak Obama was educated in Islamic madrassas in both Hawaii and Indonesia, until high school. At that time, his mother was divorced from her second Muslim husband and took her son back to Hawaii, where she broke her promise to Obama's father to raise the boy as a Muslim, and enrolled him in Catholic high school. Any of you who watched the Glen Beck show last night, now know deep effect that early training in an Islamic madrassa has on the psyche of a young boy.

Barak Obama is a Muslim. Once a Muslim, always a Muslim. Never forget it.
116 posted on 11/16/2006 11:18:09 AM PST by Eva
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To: pollyannaish

I was in the same boat as you: indeed Christians in Asia lean politically left even when they are pro-life. They will be literally shocked to see the Left in the West are all post-modern secular humanists. I think many socialists may use prooftexts or misinterpretations of Bible teachings to sway many uninformed Christians to support a lot of political Left platforms.

Take social welfare as an example: hard surveys of effects of years of unlimited and unconditional social welfare has shown they don't help people. Yet Christians continue to support them contrary to survey results just because of some misapplications of a couple of verses of Scriptures. Where we go from here...I don't know.


117 posted on 11/16/2006 11:18:52 AM PST by NZerFromHK (The US Founding is what makes Britain and USA separated by much more than a common language.)
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To: Eva

I lived in Mission Viejo, when this church was first started, and you know something interesting about it? Many of the initials members were Presbyterians (from the Church of the Master) who left the church over the ordination women. It seems strange that they are now going to listen to a Muslim speak in their church.


118 posted on 11/16/2006 11:21:51 AM PST by Eva
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To: Mr. Brightside

I accidently sent this to myself, so I'm reposting. Sorry.

I lived in Mission Viejo, when this church was first started, and you know something interesting about it? Many of the initials members were Presbyterians (from the Church of the Master) who left the church over the ordination women. It seems strange that they are now going to listen to a Muslim speak in their church.


119 posted on 11/16/2006 11:23:48 AM PST by Eva
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To: NZerFromHK

Well, let me tell you! CHeck out Irving Bible CHurch is Irving, Texas!

This is the evangelical church I was born and raised it. I am a strong conervative and don't buy into one liberal lie. My church has joined this emergent movemant it seems, buit has failed to let the congregation know about it! I'm not stupid though and can see right through it. Most of the people in my church are conservatives, but I think the pastor, music minister would both admit to being more liberal now than before. Most in the church don't know what is happening and it is sad. I hate seeing this happen to a good church.


120 posted on 11/16/2006 11:24:02 AM PST by Halls (God, please grant me the serenity to accept what I can not change....)
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To: NZerFromHK
I will continue to vote conservative, although not hard right conservative (I am unabashedly a free trader)...or what I sometimes call hard left conservative, which I define as trying to impose Christianity through legislation as some Christians do.

We have to work with the system as it exists...and therefore I believe that the GOP is the best answer most of the time. It is as simple as that for me.
121 posted on 11/16/2006 11:25:11 AM PST by pollyannaish
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To: jude24
and the Republicans have lurched to the hard right.

How so?

122 posted on 11/16/2006 11:26:37 AM PST by A.J.Armitage (http://calvinist-libertarians.blogspot.com/)
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To: Mr. Brightside
Like many fellow Democratic politicians, Sen. Barack Obama is no stranger to the pulpit.

Wow, shockingly frank from the Trib.

123 posted on 11/16/2006 11:27:57 AM PST by AmishDude (Libertarians didn't lose it for us. They're losers who work against what they claim to want.)
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To: Halls

Go to the Kowloon City Baptist Church in Hong Kong (and indeed most churches in Asia), and you will see the type of Christians I described. It is a saddening sight over there.


124 posted on 11/16/2006 11:33:25 AM PST by NZerFromHK (The US Founding is what makes Britain and USA separated by much more than a common language.)
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To: scripter
As I have, too. And each time I do ask for specifics from his detractors but those specifics are never provided.

Has no one ever provided you the specifics related to:

- Warren's teaching Synagogue 3000 how to increase their numbers. Why would a "pastor" want to increase the numbers of people being lead astray and taught falsely? How could a "pastor" ever leave Christ out of His teaching in front of ones that obviously don't know Him?

- Warren's association with Cho, and Cho's Fourth Dimension, even though it has been known, a long time, that Cho left historical orthodoxy for occultic practices?

- Warren's propensity to proof-text and twist/distort Scripture (take a look at the PDL and the use of the Message paraphrase and John 4)?

- Warren's PDC direction to finding the key to people's hearts and to shape the Gospel according to their felt needs in order to reach them?

- His lack of Gospel witness on TV?

- His association with, and promotion of, known false teachers (Brennan Manning, Henri Nouwen, Thomas Merton, Brian Mclaren, and etc.)?

- His disdain for fundamentalism?

- etc., etc. and etc.

125 posted on 11/16/2006 11:34:01 AM PST by pby
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To: mariabush
When Adrian Rogers was pastor at the 30,000 member church in Memphis, Tenn. it was totally submitted to the Word of God.

And Internet scuttlebutt is that after Adrian's death his church is going "purpose driven".

126 posted on 11/16/2006 11:38:00 AM PST by Lee N. Field
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To: pby
Let's stick with specifics and stay away from anything else. I've posted Warren's statement of faith and exerpts from this Purpose Driven Life book. Not once has anybody posted what was wrong with the statement of faith or notes from his book. Please respond to me when you have something specific.

I'm not interested in guilt by association. I'm not interested in anything other than direct quotes from Warren, his book or his statement of faith. If you respond with specifics you'll be the first.

127 posted on 11/16/2006 11:43:52 AM PST by scripter ("If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." Romans 12:18)
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To: scripter

Again with the Warren "statement of faith" argument. Have you ever heard the expression "actions speak louder than words?" How about, "talk is cheap?" Or maybe, "don't listen to what people say, watch what they do?" Perhaps, "your actions speak so loudly I can't hear what you are saying?"

All apply to the wolf in sheep's clothing Warren. His actions, comments, and other writings constantly belie Saddleback's statement of faith that you always quote. Why can't you see that the man is a complete fraud?


128 posted on 11/16/2006 11:50:42 AM PST by Cecily (`)
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To: jude24
What is "christianese", then? How do you define the term and please give three examples of it?

And do you agree with the biblical position of Christ's death on the cross as penal substitutionary atonement (He paid the price for our sins)?

Does the emergent church that you know of agree with it?

All emergent-types that I have read and encountered promote re-defining all historical biblical doctrines, including: salvation, sin, atonement, repentance, holiness, separation, and etc (Mclaren calls sin and the cross false adverstising for God).

There is a difference between tares and false teachers...We aren't to be "friendly" with the false teachers or make accomodations for them.

What are the legitimate concerns of the emergent folks?

And how are you friendly with them?

Does the emergent church that you are familiar with promote contemplative prayer and other Catholic, mystical practices?

129 posted on 11/16/2006 11:53:41 AM PST by pby
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To: Cecily

I find this incredible. Once again you have not provided anything specific. I'm reminded of Stephen in front of the Sanhedrin...


130 posted on 11/16/2006 11:59:10 AM PST by scripter ("If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." Romans 12:18)
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To: scripter

Specifics have been posted here repeatedly, and you repeatedly ignore them.

Google is still your friend. You are perfectly capable of finding all the specifics that you seek on the Internet.


131 posted on 11/16/2006 12:15:02 PM PST by Cecily (`)
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To: Mr. Brightside

bttt


132 posted on 11/16/2006 12:16:25 PM PST by xone
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To: Cecily
Specifics have been posted here repeatedly, and you repeatedly ignore them.

I've seen a lot of posts with general statements, nothing else. If you're right then you should be able to find the posts without a problem.

Google is still your friend. You are perfectly capable of finding all the specifics that you seek on the Internet.

That's wonderful. Smear somebody, don't provide anything specific and tell people to go look for themselves.

I asked you for specifics on this thread and I never got specifics. At this time, post 60 is still unanswered. While the post wasn't directed to you, it once again shows no specifics have been provided.

133 posted on 11/16/2006 12:24:23 PM PST by scripter ("If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." Romans 12:18)
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To: scripter

You have been answered, repeatedly. Just because you constantly claim you have not been answered does not make it so. I have no doubt you will claim you haven't been answered yet again, so this back and forth is futile. I will move along.


134 posted on 11/16/2006 12:34:16 PM PST by Cecily (`)
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To: Cecily
You have been answered, repeatedly. Just because you constantly claim you have not been answered does not make it so. I have no doubt you will claim you haven't been answered yet again, so this back and forth is futile. I will move along.

Since you can't support your statements perhaps you should ask the moderator to have them removed. That's what somebody with character would do.

As I said to you on another thread here:

You don't know Warren's heart and you don't know the hearts of those who claim to have come to faith in Christ through Warren's ministry, but you're sure something is wrong, somewhere. It seems to me you should heed Paul's words referenced above.
Some of the words Paul listed were "to slander no one." Ahem...
135 posted on 11/16/2006 12:39:50 PM PST by scripter ("If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." Romans 12:18)
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To: scripter

The dust has been shaken ... bye bye.


136 posted on 11/16/2006 12:46:51 PM PST by Cecily (`)
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To: TommyDale

He flipped out a long time ago. It's just more people are starting to finally see it.


137 posted on 11/16/2006 12:49:43 PM PST by Sue Perkick (The true gospel is a call to self-denial. It is not a call to self-fulfillment..John MacArthur)
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To: Cecily
Yes, Christian, walk away after smearing Warren without any supporting evidence. There evidence of your character right there, in plain view of everyone and God.
138 posted on 11/16/2006 12:50:30 PM PST by scripter ("If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." Romans 12:18)
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To: shekkian
It would be better if he actually started preaching the Gospel.
139 posted on 11/16/2006 12:53:54 PM PST by Sue Perkick (The true gospel is a call to self-denial. It is not a call to self-fulfillment..John MacArthur)
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To: Sue Perkick

Not everyone, as I'm sure you have noted. There is none so blind as a Laodicean Lemming who will not see.


140 posted on 11/16/2006 12:54:30 PM PST by Cecily (`)
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To: DocRock

At least it serves a "purpose".


141 posted on 11/16/2006 12:58:11 PM PST by Sue Perkick (The true gospel is a call to self-denial. It is not a call to self-fulfillment..John MacArthur)
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To: scripter
"Let's stick with specifics..."

Which one of the items that I listed does not qualify as a specific for you?

142 posted on 11/16/2006 12:58:28 PM PST by pby
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To: pby
As I said in the post to which you responded: I'm not interested in guilt by association. I'm not interested in anything other than direct quotes from Warren, his book or his statement of faith.

What you've provided is either guilt by association or it's not specific.

143 posted on 11/16/2006 1:02:51 PM PST by scripter ("If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." Romans 12:18)
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To: scripter
That's wonderful. Smear somebody, don't provide anything specific and tell people to go look for themselves.

Greetings old FRiend.

i believe that the scriptures admonish us to:

Prove all things. Hold fast that which is good.

I Thessalonians 5:21, KJV

With this particular guidance, i find it somewhat distressing that you appear [giving you the benefit of doubt] to have not critically examined Warren's works in light of Scripture. None the less, in answer to your querry, i provide the following examination of Warren's work, The Purpose Driven Life. http://www.svchapel.org/Resources/Articles/read_articles.asp?id=1

Let us know what you think of this evaluation. i believe that you will find it to be quite balanced.

144 posted on 11/16/2006 1:23:41 PM PST by Calvinist_Dark_Lord (I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper)
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To: Mr. Brightside

All megachurches are liberal.


145 posted on 11/16/2006 1:26:32 PM PST by Sloth (The GOP is to DemonRats in politics as Michael Jackson is to Jeffrey Dahmer in babysitting.)
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To: Calvinist_Dark_Lord

Thank you, CDL. I wanted to let you know that I received your post and will be responding later. If I do not respond today then please remind me tomorrow.


146 posted on 11/16/2006 1:29:42 PM PST by scripter ("If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone." Romans 12:18)
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To: Guenevere

Desperately trying to turn Orange Country into Democratic territory???


147 posted on 11/16/2006 1:30:01 PM PST by Arizona Carolyn
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To: Sensei Ern

"I-chabod."

"The Glory of the LORD has departed."

Very succinct description of most of the modern church, sadly.


148 posted on 11/16/2006 1:30:16 PM PST by trillabodilla (Jesus Saves)
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To: Sloth

Yeah, right.


149 posted on 11/16/2006 1:40:30 PM PST by Mr. Brightside
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To: pby
What is "christianese", then?

Needless use of jargon. A lot of it is denomination - or group - specific. For example, a certain parachurch ministry I am familiar with would invariably slip into Evangelical jargon. For example, "Jesus in your heart." Another example would be the buzzwords used within my former denomination ("New Testament Principles" - i.e., those church structure practices we like to emphasize).

And do you agree with the biblical position of Christ's death on the cross as penal substitutionary atonement (He paid the price for our sins)?

With a key caveat, absolutely. The Penal Substitutionary system is a model designed to explain a "spiritual" or Biblical phenomena. Take a Chemistry example. Remember the "solar-system" models of the atom? They were good for explaining atoms to little kids - but they were an explanation, not the reality. In college, you learn about orbitals, and get these odd shapes around which electrons tend to be located - but, while these orbitals were a more precise model, it still could not be confused for the reality.

The penal substitutionary model of the atonement - that Christ , in a legal sense, paid the price for our sins is a model which the Bible uses to explain the means by which God makes sinners righteous because of the death of His Son. That is, still, a model used for illustration. The reality - that Christ died in the place of sinners - is far more inexpressible than a simple illustration.

(This approach, incidentally, is plagarized from C.S. Lewis. Sharp guy, that C.S. Lewis.)

Does the emergent church that you know of agree with it?

Absolutely.

All emergent-types that I have read and encountered promote re-defining all historical biblical doctrines, including: salvation, sin, atonement, repentance, holiness, separation, and etc

As I have said before, I have limited exposure to the Emergent movement, and from what I've seen, I can understand some of where the Emergent church is coming from. There's a lot of people who had bad experiences with the Church who benefit from an Emergent-style message. The only Emergent church with which I am at all familiar has made it their mission to reach out to people who have had bad experiences with other churches, and try to bring them back into historic Christianity.

Does the emergent church that you are familiar with promote contemplative prayer and other Catholic, mystical practices?

These sound like buzzwords. I will say this - if you are going to slam something as "Catholic," I am not biting. That's not necessarily a bad thing. As regards mysticism, well, I don't think the church is. One of my friends involved in the group is decidedly more mystical than I - the source of many intriguing discussions.

150 posted on 11/16/2006 1:44:57 PM PST by jude24 ("I will oppose the sword if it's not wielded well, because my enemies are men like me.")
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