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Kidnapping of Americans Linked to al-Sadr
ABC News ^ | November 17 2006 | LUIS MARTINEZ

Posted on 11/17/2006 8:09:43 PM PST by jmc1969

A senior Defense Department official told ABC News that Shiite militiamen tied to anti-American cleric Moqtada al Sadr were behind the abduction of four American security contractors and an Austrian co-worker seized in a brazen attack on a supply convoy near the southern Iraqi city of Basra.

The search for the missing contractors resulted in a raid by coalition forces earlier today near the Kuwait border that resulted in the deaths of two Iraqi gunmen, but no hostages were found.

Throughout the day, statements from Iraqi officials — later discounted — led to reports that some of the hostages had been released or found dead. However, their employer, Crescent Security Group, said there had been no claim of responsibility, no demand for ransom and no communication of any kind from the hijackers.

Despite the confusion, new details emerged about the incident Thursday that took place 20 kilometers north of the Iraqi city of Safwan, located near the border with Kuwait.

A senior defense official said it was believed that the gunmen who ambushed the convoy were wearing newly issued Iraqi police uniforms that are supposed to be tightly controlled, hard to duplicate and were issued only last month.

Only a month ago, the coalition began distributing the digitally altered blue camouflage uniforms to National Police Brigades. The uniforms are also tied to the mass kidnapping earlier this week in Baghdad at the Education Ministry.

(Excerpt) Read more at abcnews.go.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: alsadr; contractors; iraq
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To: BroncosFan; Marine_Uncle

al-Sadr's top aid laid out the Madhi Army's plans for talking over Iraq two months ago to the Washington Post, he plainly said they plan on starting a civil war and winning it and then consolidating their victory meaning killing their Shia rivals.

The Madhi Army plan is simple first get an all out civil war going, that will allow the Madhi Army to expand massively from 30-40k to 300-400k thanks to the four million poor citizens of Sadr City which would provide a great pool for Madhi Army fighters. With help from Iran they could equip these fighters.

In a year or two the Sunnis would be driven out of Baghdad and nearby cities and deep into the far west of Anbar. At which point the Madhi Army would use its several hundred thousand strong militia to overpower the rival Shia militia the Badr, thus allowing them to control Iraq. After that I expect with Iranian and perhaps Turkish help they will start a long with the Kurds.

This is why the US can't just sit back and let a civil war occur.


51 posted on 11/17/2006 10:35:42 PM PST by jmc1969
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To: jmc1969

Yes, kill the enemy now or our mission in Iraq is done.


52 posted on 11/17/2006 10:39:41 PM PST by rusureitflies?
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To: Cannoneer No. 4

"Not if everybody who wants to pick up their marbles and go home will just STFU and let us finish the job."

Finish the job???

The whole point of this thread is that the Madhi Army is attacking us blatently. They are killing Americans and kidnapping them and we aren't responding. They are trying everything they can to start a civil war by killing tens of thousands and we aren't responding.

We will finish the job when we have the nads to take out the most powerful pro-Iranian militia in Iraq. And, we have very little time to do it before they are able to spark an all out civil war.


53 posted on 11/17/2006 10:40:39 PM PST by jmc1969
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To: jmc1969

The whole point of this thread is you pitching a fit and withdrawing your support from the war because you, in your infinite wisdom, think the Mahdi Army should be taken down by US forces, now, before they ethnic cleanse the Sunnis and wipe out the Badr Brigades.


54 posted on 11/18/2006 12:10:42 AM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us.)
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To: All

It's simply not as easy as one thinks..... I don't care what the pundits say, Al-Sadr has popular support, when he barracated himself in that holy Shitte mosque- Where was the outrage? From his fellow Iraqs? There was none!


55 posted on 11/18/2006 12:39:39 AM PST by SeattleMariner
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To: jmc1969

The Madhi vs. SCIRI/Badr brawl is one of the toughest things to get a clear picture of. Basically, SCIRI/Badr are more organized, more formally militarized, and -- most dangerously -- more closely tied to Iran. The Sadrists, on the other hand, are more akin to Aidid's drug-crazed cannon fodder in Somalia.


56 posted on 11/18/2006 3:04:06 AM PST by BroncosFan ("Now we grieve, 'cause now it's gone / But things were good when we were young.")
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To: navyguy
Sadly, President Bush doesn't have the nards to kill this booger eating savage... political reasons and such... If this guy is still alive by next summer I will officially campaign against this war on the grounds that our government is intentionally allowing US soldiers to be killed by a known terrorist in the name of political games. And I'll happily tell the President the same. 14 posted on 11/17/2006 9:00:06 PM PST by navyguy (We don't need more youth. What we need is a fountain of SMART.)

Sadly, I have already given up on this war. I just hope that my son makes it out in good shape. Rumsfeld started the ball rolling downhill by not having enough troops on the ground. Then he compounded the error by "staying the course". Only an insane person keeps doing the same thing over and over and hopes that the outcome will change. Then the president "fires" Rumsfeld after the election in an apparent move to appease the victorious demoncraps. Finally, we have no exit timetable. Originally I bought the party line about how an exit timetable would only work to help the terrorists. Now I know that the lazy Arabs will not step up to the plate and do their job of policing their own nation as long as the Americans are there to bail them out.

This war was bungled by not having enough boots on the ground and now is being bungled by not getting ready to leave if the arabs don't start policing themselves.

57 posted on 11/18/2006 3:43:39 AM PST by american_ranger
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To: sageb1

He should have went to Allah two years ago but we didn't have the cajones to send him there...


58 posted on 11/18/2006 3:59:40 AM PST by Virginia Ridgerunner ("Si vis pacem para bellum")
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To: Cannoneer No. 4; jmc1969
There is a ditch in Crawford for you.

If you are "over there" and supporting Mookie and Iran, I will be the first one in the ditch calling to bring an end to such stupidity. Iranian and Syrian materials and support, along with the Madhi militia, are what have been killing our troops.

59 posted on 11/18/2006 9:08:48 AM PST by ARealMothersSonForever (We shall never forget the atrocities of September 11, 2001.)
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To: jmc1969
I've been asking this question since early 2004. "Why is Mookie al-Sadr still sucking O2?"

5.56mm

60 posted on 11/18/2006 9:14:49 AM PST by M Kehoe
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To: jmc1969

It would be time to deal with this permanently.


61 posted on 11/18/2006 9:16:09 AM PST by RightWhale (RTRA DLQS GSCW)
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To: jmc1969; Cannoneer No. 4; BroncosFan
The problem with these threads is that to often what we in haste for whatever reason(s) put in print a quick response, that really requires sometimes dozens of paragraphs to outline in detail each point we want to make relative to the over all picture.
We, at least I, take it for granted, that those that often interact at FR on issues, tend to remember the over all position of those I interact with.
I see nothing out of whack with anything said amongst this thread group. We are all appreciative to a high degree why the fat boy must be taken out along with his key administrative and militaristic side kicks.
Likewise we all appreciate why it is imperative for Hakim and his Badr Brigade to also be disbanded.

I do think we should be careful as how we throw around the phrase often used by the POTUS, stay the course.
It obviously means different things to different people here and outside FR.
And it would be unfair not to emphasize the phrase has had to accommodate things that came to past, that require adjusted thinking to some degree.
Current Iraqi politics due to the process allowed to develop in how the government was to be formed and guided by a constitution, have thrown all types of barriers in the way of obtaining the original solution.
And obviously we can write scores of sentences to delineate why the original plan for a united secular government is now so much the harder to achieve, due to the likes of Sadr, Hakim, their parliamentary system, their voting rules, etc..
So many often convoluted and twisted scenarios have surfaced due to their very cultural/religious/tribal means of living.
It is clear they cannot change their basic believe systems in such a short period of time. Most probably never will.

However I believe we all would state along the same lines that stay the course means in essence, a total disbandment of all Iraqi militias, the continued training and refinement of the Iraqi military (airforce,army,navy,special commandos), as well as a by province police force that meets the needs of all Iraqi within those provinces under a given governor.
And obviously the continued interacting between the Iraqi forces and Coalition forces to bring down the many groups participating in the ongoing insurgency. Now I leave so much untouched don't I?
But that does not mean I differ in the over all game plan we would all like to see happen in due course.
What royally fizzes off so many here, often people that have loved ones serving in Iraq as I write, is what you all in slightly different writing styles make note of.

Not a soul at FR, wants to hear about even one more American fighting man/women being WIA or KIA.
Let us earnestly hope the proposed doubling of the defense budget for 2007 in effect indicates the US has plans on sending in whatever number/size/mix of division of Army and Marines to put a terrible hurting on all those in Iraq that appose this IG and the idea of a secular unity government, on a time frame that does not exceed this POTUS watch.

It is high time that the now immortalized words Marine General Mattis used some three years back..."we will wear silk gloves, and no better friend or worse enemy shall come into play, on a grand scale.
If the above does not start happening soon, then all jmc1969 and I have said is we are loosing our spirit to want to support the methodologies being used in Iraq to turn it around. The IG HAS NO EXCUSE AT THIS POINT. Jaafari and his associates where dumped. Maliki was brought on board to reverse the then obvious trends being shown by the Shia to play their own game.
I see next to nothing of importance being done by Maliki in regards to disbanding all the militias. If this is a frigen little game they play. Then call it for what it is, and take appropriate measures and FULLY DISCLOSED CONSEQUENCES they will have to endure. If they are playing typical A Rab games and theatactrics with us, then that has to stop. Yes it is their country, but our troops are there for a specific purpose. And clearly the IG is not honoring it's side of the bargain. Assuming there actually has been a solid established agreement between the US/Coalition representative governments and the IG as to just what their goal is to be/desired.
Time for Maliki to get the hell off his ass and show he can be brutal with these militias.
This crap Maliki says in effect ...we will not tolerate them, then do nothing of significance, or demand US troops withdraw from the capital's neighborhoods (checkpoints) because it is causing TRAFFIC JAMS is BULL SHIT.
62 posted on 11/18/2006 10:43:50 AM PST by Marine_Uncle (Honor must be earned)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
The whole point of this thread is you pitching a fit and withdrawing your support from the war because you, in your infinite wisdom, think the Mahdi Army should be taken down by US forces, now, before they ethnic cleanse the Sunnis and wipe out the Badr Brigades.

I often disagree with jmc, especially on Sunni/Shia relations, but he's entirely right on this point. While I find the thought of the Iraqi Sunnis driven to ruin both comforting and cathartic, it is certainly not in our interest to allow the Madhi Army to do so.

Letting al-Sadr take over Iraq entirely, in order to set up a theocratic satellite state of Iran, with AQI as the leader of the Sunni resistance, and America forced to withdraw under fire, is a merger of worst case scenarios. We'd have been a lot better off leaving Saddam in power if this is how it's going to end.

What benefit would the U.S. derive from, as you say, allowing the Madhi Army to ethnically cleanse the Sunnis and wipe out the Badr brigades?

63 posted on 11/18/2006 11:05:35 AM PST by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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To: Steel Wolf; Marine_Uncle

I understand why some see the Madhi Army as potentally more friend then enemy because they like us are fighting Sunni insurgents.

But, that is about the only place our interests coincide. If the Madhi Army is left to its own divices long term it will produce Hezbollah on steroids in the heart of the Middle East. We have a limited amount of time to keep that from happening.


64 posted on 11/18/2006 12:24:29 PM PST by jmc1969
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To: jmc1969
I understand why some see the Madhi Army as potentally more friend then enemy because they like us are fighting Sunni insurgents.

As much as I dislike the WWII comparisons, here's one that's particularly apt.

Imagine the Sunnis and Shia are the Germans and Russians. Even though we were fighting Germany, would it have been in our interest to withdraw from Europe after landing at Normandy, and let Stalin wipe out the Nazis for us, all the way to France? Al-Sadr is no more our friend than Uncle Joe was, common enemy or not.

If that's their reasoning for supporting the Madhi Army, then they need their heads examined.

65 posted on 11/18/2006 12:35:14 PM PST by Steel Wolf (As Ibn Warraq said, "There are moderate Muslims but there is no moderate Islam.")
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To: jmc1969
"If the Madhi Army is left to its own divices long term it will produce Hezbollah on steroids in the heart of the Middle East. We have a limited amount of time to keep that from happening."
Precisly the point. They are really no short/mid/long term solution other then the few Sunni/al-Qaeda/Saddmist goons they may kill that wonder into their neighborhoods.
They have no business at this point playing traffic cop, nor local militia. Iraq needs no militias. It needs a solid unified army and police force under guidance of the federal government and prospective provinces governments.
66 posted on 11/18/2006 2:16:51 PM PST by Marine_Uncle (Honor must be earned)
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To: jmc1969

It would sure be nice if someone took this pos out yesterday.


67 posted on 11/18/2006 2:19:35 PM PST by freeangel ( (free speech is only good until someone else doesn't like what you say))
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To: Steel Wolf
I would be careful to fall into that analogy. Remember General's Patton and MacArthur's time proven warnings.
Russia having taken over all of Europe would have also taken over Britain in due time, then spread their iron wall further into the oil rich mid east etc.. We would have had a hell of a time fighting them. FDR and his cronies where fools for the most part in how they treated uncle Joe. At least Churchhill realized from the onset the commies had a world plan to take over everyone eventually.
68 posted on 11/18/2006 2:31:01 PM PST by Marine_Uncle (Honor must be earned)
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To: Steel Wolf

Whoops! Forget my follow up comments. I failed to properly read your comment to jmc1969. Obviously what I wrote simply echo your analogy.


69 posted on 11/18/2006 2:34:05 PM PST by Marine_Uncle (Honor must be earned)
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To: jmc1969; Nancee

Many of us echoed the concerns about Sadr for at least a couple of years already.

Nobody is listening to the obvious.

We can't win a war that's not persecuted "militarily"; it's run politicaly with a heavy dose of PC. It's destroyed by the MSM and their RAT allies.

NOW, can you say Viet Nam? A war that was "lost" in Washington and never on the battlefield.


70 posted on 11/18/2006 2:52:37 PM PST by melancholy (Bella bint Pelusi, the Sneaker of the Out-House, she is a shoe-in!)
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To: Steel Wolf
What benefit would the U.S. derive from, as you say, allowing the Madhi Army to ethnically cleanse the Sunnis and wipe out the Badr brigades?

I didn't say that.

I said:

you, in your infinite wisdom, think the Mahdi Army should be taken down by US forces, now, before they ethnic cleanse the Sunnis and wipe out the Badr Brigades.

Al Qaeda In Iraq, Saddam's bully boys, and all the other bad guys in Anbar would be greatly inconvenienced if they had to take time out from planting IEDs and lobbing mortars to run for their lives from Shiite death squads. And that's a bad thing?

"Allowing" the Mahdi Army and the Badr Brigades to kill each other off supposes that they need our permission. They don't. How much American effort should go in to preventing two enemies from killing each other?

71 posted on 11/18/2006 8:42:42 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us.)
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To: ARealMothersSonForever
I don't support Mookie or Iran, but I do support the idea that Iraq is a sovereign nation and the US Army and Marine Corps supports that idea, too, which is why Mookie is not going to be taken out by Americans.

You do believe in democracy, don't you?

72 posted on 11/18/2006 8:49:50 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (Either we bring them freedom, or they destroy us.)
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To: jmc1969

This would be a good time for the Dems to show how tough they are and finally call for someone to blow the turban off that whackjob's head...with a bazooka!


73 posted on 11/18/2006 8:56:15 PM PST by Scarchin (+)
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To: melancholy
"...A war that was 'lost' in Washington and never on the battlefield."

History would be a great teacher if the left-liberals would stop playing politics and allow us to win the war we're fighting now...one of the wars they have set us up to lose by virtue of their PC and politics!! The more I see, read, and hear, the angrier I become with these fools! They are the ones costing us American lives...like one of their mascots, Cindy Sheehan...carping all of the time about that which she and her hard left friends have brought upon us with their never-ending criticism of the manner in which the most recent war is being fought....at least some of the blood will forever remain on their hands!!

Nancee

74 posted on 11/19/2006 4:44:11 AM PST by Nancee ((Nancee Lynn Cheney))
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To: Nancee
the left-liberals would stop playing politics and allow us to win the war we're fighting now.......at least some of the blood will forever remain on their hands!!

Unfortunately, they wash their hands off it with a good brand of soap; the MSM. They "dry" their hands through the ultra-liberal teaching community in public schools and colleges. Nailing the twisted truth through the ultra-liberal historians follows this. Now they are "known to be" the clean, compassionate peaceniks” a la Cindy Sheehan and the 60s crowd.

Example: who had the Viet Nam blood on his hands? The twisted answer is: Nixon!.... He gets no credit for ending the war with no reference or even mention that it was started by JFK and expanded by LBJ!

Et voila, that's what's being taught to our kids as "history."

75 posted on 11/19/2006 7:35:33 AM PST by melancholy (Bella bint Pelusi, the Sneaker of the Out-House, she is a shoe-in!)
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To: melancholy
Indeed! But wasn't it Lady MacBeth who, try as she might, just couldn't get that bright red sticky stuff off her hands? She went mad, didn't she with the results of her deeds?

I know, I know...these Democrats appear to be able to ignore that substance and keep rolling over the facts and doing further dirty deeds.

I know, the wrong people get the credit for all the reasons you have articulated....nevertheless...there are enough of us around to make it clear that history has been and continues to be revised. I'm quite sure that many people wish I would shut up and go away, but as long as there is breath in me, I will make every effort to educate when and where the opportunities present themselves; they are vast and numerous, these opportunities.

Nancee

76 posted on 11/19/2006 8:05:47 AM PST by Nancee ((Nancee Lynn Cheney))
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To: Nancee
I will make every effort to educate when and where the opportunities present themselves;

God Bless you, Nancee.

77 posted on 11/19/2006 8:09:48 AM PST by melancholy (Bella bint Pelusi, the Sneaker of the Out-House, she is a shoe-in!)
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To: jmc1969

Our military needs to introduce Sadr to his 72 virgins.


78 posted on 11/19/2006 8:18:48 AM PST by savedbygrace (SECURE THE BORDERS FIRST (I'M YELLING ON PURPOSE))
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To: melancholy
Thank you, I trust He will continue to. And He will bless you, too. You have your own area of expertise and I KNOW He uses you to educate too; you and that wonderful sense of humor He blessed you with. Furthermore, He will continue to educate through you as long as you remain as generous and honorable as you are.

We're all in this together. If we stick together...the Democrats will not be able to defeat us in the long run. I am nothing, if not determined!! :-)

Nancee

79 posted on 11/19/2006 8:19:27 AM PST by Nancee ((Nancee Lynn Cheney))
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To: sageb1

The light in the refrigerator is on....and the door is closed. There's something living in there!!


80 posted on 11/19/2006 8:23:32 AM PST by Sacajaweau (God Bless Our Troops!!)
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To: Sacajaweau

hah! lol


81 posted on 11/19/2006 8:30:25 AM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: jmc1969; All
Seems to me that it's overtime that the fat bastard should be culled and soon. I do not see the great impediment to that task.
Notwithstanding his Western media support as a "Saintly and religious figure" and the other raging nutcases bonking their heads and slapping their hearts, he is eminently do-able.
One man, one gun, one vote. Or maybe a Hellfire remodel of his residence.
82 posted on 11/19/2006 8:33:44 AM PST by Gideon Reader ("The quiet gentleman sitting in the corner sipping The Maccallan and enjoying his Stan Getz CD's".)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
You do believe in democracy, don't you?

Following that logic, Saddam must be restored to power. He garnered over 99% of the popular vote at every election. Mookie's own people fragged him back when we were stacking them in the cemetery. Then he went and hid in a mosque. I am not saying that Coalition forces should kill him or arrest him today. This is an Iraqi problem, with an Iraqi solution. Yet Iran sees this as an extension of the Iran-Iraq war. They will happily drag OUR troops through these events for 20 years. Do you really want that kind of "open ended" commitment?

83 posted on 11/19/2006 8:56:13 AM PST by ARealMothersSonForever (We shall never forget the atrocities of September 11, 2001.)
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