Posted on 11/30/2006 2:05:10 AM PST by Dallas59
To live peacefully with Muslims and Jews, Christians must put aside the notion that their faith requires the creation of a Christian kingdom on Earth, a Lipscomb University theologian told an interfaith gathering at the university.
"We are not going to get very far in our relationship with Jews or Muslims if we do not let go of this idea," Lipscomb professor Lee Camp said at Tuesday's conference.
The unusual gathering of several dozen clergy and lay people was devoted to resolving religious conflict in Nashville and around the world.
"We need to forsake the Christendom model," Camp said. "The most basic Christian commitment … is that we say we believe in the Lordship of Jesus. But, if we claim that, how can a Muslim or Jew trust us, if we say Jesus is the Lord of all Lords?"
Co-sponsored by the First Amendment Center at Vanderbilt University, the daylong conference was prompted by a desire to begin a dialogue about global religious conflict.
After five years of rising gas prices, disturbing privacy issues that followed the Sept. 11 attacks and the fear of terrorism, it became apparent that everyday life in Nashville is directly affected by religious conflicts in the Middle East and elsewhere, conference organizers said.
"We felt like the larger community is calling for this," said Larry Bridgesmith, executive director of Lipscomb's newly established Institute for Conflict Management.
Panelists representing different faiths presented their own views on how to begin to bridge the religious divide.
For Kahled Sakalla, a spokesman for the Islamic Center of Nashville, some of the answers lie in better education about Islam in the non-Muslim world.
Allah, the God Muslims worship, is the same God Christians and Jews worship, and the Quran recounts the same biblical stories of Mary and Jesus, he said.
"Yes, we have differences, but it's important to focus on commonalities," said Sakalla, one of four panelists representing different faiths who addressed the Lipscomb conference.
Mark Schiftan, rabbi of the Temple in Belle Meade, said he also believes people of faith must begin to look for common ground.
"If all of us believe we were created in God's image, then we have to believe that everyone else is also created in God's image," Schiftan said.
Charles McGowan, president of the Christian group Operation Andrew said: "It's important to us in Nashville that we be proactive. Religious leaders must engage one another if we are going to experience in this city the peace and calm we all desire."
But the issues that have divided the world's religions for millennia are so deep and fundamental — ranging from the question of whether the land of Israel rightfully belongs to the Jews and whether there is one way to salvation — that tackling them will require both dialogue with other faiths and a more introspective look at one's own beliefs, panelists said.
Some liberal theologians have suggested that different faiths are all variations on one another and that beliefs are all basically the same, a position with which Camp deeply disagrees.
Instead, he believes, Christians must not back away from their beliefs but further examine them and their own history.
First, Christians must examine their "sins of omission," he said — such as not taking the time to learn about other religions. Then they must look at their "sins of commission."
"We have such short historical (memory) spans as white Christians," he said. "There is a history of anti-Semitism, the violence and bloodshed of the crusades and cultural imperialism. We have to deal with the reality of what Christians have done, which in some cases has been to kill people."
Camp described himself as a conservative Christian but conceded his opinions may be viewed as "radical" by other evangelical Christians.
Christians must shed the idea that they need to promulgate a worldwide Christianity, he said.
"If I hold to a model of Jesus … what I've committed to in my baptism is loving my enemy," Lee said. "I'm committed to not killing you, but to serving and honoring you. It's an exclusive commitment to the way of Christ, not to the exclusive authority of Christ."
Sakalla said there may never be reconciliation on the fundamental theological divisions.
"Every religion has different teachings," he said. "For Muslims, it's: Do you believe in one God and that Muhammad" is his prophet? "I don't think we can teach individuals that the way you go to heaven in other religions is OK. You have to teach differences." •
And you obviously learned nothing there, else you wouldn't be quoting Wikipedia as a reliable source. Yes, there were short abberational periods where forced conversions happened--but they were just that---abberations---not matters of doctrine--unlike the massive (and still ongoing) campaign by Islam to forcibly convert the world that WAS and IS a matter of religious doctrine.
"The Cathar residents were given a chance to convert, and the 140 who refused were burned."
Do you expect to actually be taken seriously when you compare trivial incidents like this to the hundreds of thousands (and possibly millions) who died at the hands of expansionist Islam.
My only regret is that the Crusades failed, and didn't completely wipe Islam off the face of the earth, as it so richly deserves.
In serious dialog with Jews and Muslims, we American Christians, who tend to have very short historical attention spans, must acknowledge the sins of Christian history.
Ridiculous. Who's denying that terrible things have been done in the name of Christ? I think plenty of acknowledgment has been proffered. All Christians want - of Muslims at least - is not to be blown up, beheaded, or maimed.
"Because I profess Jesus as Lord, I must let go of any strategy that seeks to violently impose “Jesus is Lord” upon another...."
Um...Exactly WHO is trying to violently impose "Jesus is Lord" on everyone else? Where is this huge cabal, the intent of which is to forcibly convert people to Christianity (an impossibility, btw)?
Add to your verses, the following:
"Therefore, my dear brothers, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain." (I Corinthians 15:58)*
And these:
"Your attitude should be the same as that of Jesus Christ:
"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." (Philippians 2: 5~11)**
Just a humble reminder: not only will those of us who recognize Him for who He is, but the knees and tongues of everyone, including Nancy Pelosi and her brood, the ACLU, the NEA, Ahmadinejad and his followers etc., will conform to His will:....every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father!!
It's as simple as that. So we can rest assured in His comfort and follow His direction:
"Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed-not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence-continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose." (Philippians 2:12, 13)***
*HOLY BIBLE New International Version,p. 1792
**Ibid., p. 1827
***Ibid., pps. 1827, 1828
I noticed the conspicous absence of the notion that Muslims have to give up the idea of the whole world living under Shaira Law. Camp obviously believes that Christians are the bad guys and that Muslims are the good guys, and I doubt there is any changing his mind.
Lee Camp is a pawn of Satan and is in danger of losing his soul.
Hmmm. Does that mean that Muslims should also give up their idea of world domination? The biggest difference I see is that Christians may want a world in which the tenets of Christianity are paramount, but they don't go around killing those who disagree, and they even let those who disagree build their own houses of worship and attend freely. Can't say the same thing about countries dominated by Muslims.
He must have been gone from school the day they learned about the resurrection.
Hmmm...renounce Jesus as the Lord of all Lords?
You go right ahead and do, that, Mr. Camp. See where it gets you.
The devil and his minions will always continue to skim the the naive pit with his lies and deceit.
But if people actually fall for this garbage, they are already at the bottom.
Too bad these nitwit "theologians" didn't read it.
Note the writer of the article name. While Camp's subsequent comments are better there still seems to be some problems with them.
NOT TRUE!
So this man has rejected the belief that in Jesus alone there is salvation. Now he wants the rest of us to believe what he believes. Those whose faith is in Christ alone are the true troublemakers. He's smoking crack.
Why do you take pleasure in the death of the wicked? God does not.
"Say to them: ‘As I live,’ says the Lord God, ‘I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways!" (Ezekiel 33:11)
BUMP
Says he.
One does not tell the true by omitting half the story. (1) The Crusades were in fact an attempt at the RECONQUEST of formerly Christian lands. That reconquest was successful in Spain, which gave the Crusades their name, and in Sicily, taken by the Normans. (2) The First Crusades was a response to Muslim aggression, to the actions of Turkish barbarians. And their counter response was every bit as savage as anything the Crusaders did. (3) Christian actions did no more than set back the Turkish advance, which after 1400 swept on to the gates of Vienna, to the near(reconquest) conquest of Sicily and a menace to Italy. Only the power of the Hapsburgs stood between the Turkish domination of the whole Mediterranean basin and indeed Europe itself. Eventually it was forced to recede by the combined efforts of Austria, Poland and Russia, and later by the efforts of France and England in the Mediterranean. Action, followed by reaction is the history of the relations between Christians and Muslims. (3) The Koran is obviously an anti-Christian and anti-Judaic document. It denies what the Bible says about the Jews; It denies what it says about Jesus.
It is COWARDICE and also the dumbing-down of the universalist spirituality; that it doesn't matter if you worship Jesus, Mohammed or a quartz crystal.
By golly, you missed it!!
I, being a broken-glass Republican, do not especially like it when President Bush is referred to as Mr. Bush or just Bush. However, I do not go into spasms when someone does this.
Neither do I. What I "had",was no spasm. But when I have one, I'll be sure to let you know.
MM
If the seminary professor is a compromising, liberal type it's a toss-up as far as I'm concerned.
But my opinion of the professor doesn't matter -- which is why I suggested that he make sure his house is in order with the One whose opinion does matter.
Ditto that !!!!!!!!!
Do you refer to Queen Elizabeth as Mrs. Windsor?
2000 years or 1400 years of co-existence (not saying peaceable) says something.
I'll look that story up some night when I'm feeling more loving toward our dear Muslim friends. ROFL
Tell the Muslims that they should give up their designs on a universal Califate! Hypocrite and apostate are two words that come to mind here.
liberal theologian oxymoron
Re- Somethings are so stupid that only an intelligent person would believe them...
"Fascism is always descending on the United States, but somehow it keeps landing in Europe (Wolfe). Goldberg writes about "liberal paranoia" (tip: Kathy):
If the Christian base of the GOP gets its way, "All government employees - federal, state and local - would be required to participate in weekly Bible classes in the workplace, as well as compulsory daily prayer sessions." We would all have to carry religious identity cards that "would provide Christocrats with preferential treatment in many areas of life, including home ownership, student loans, employment and education." Non-Christians would be indulged as second-class citizens, "but younger members ... would be strongly encouraged to formally convert to the dominant evangelical Christianity." Homosexual sex would be illegalized, while "known homosexuals and lesbians would have to successfully undergo government-sponsored reeducation sessions if they applied for any public-sector jobs." Dissidents would be on the run, the popular culture censored by bureaucratic Cotton Mathers, and "the mainstream press and the electronic media would be beaten into submission."
All of that is according to James Rudin in his book "The Baptizing of America."
Mr. Rudin is a few cards short of a full deck.
Try substituting "Moslems" for "Christian", "Islam" for "Christianity", and "Koran" for "Bible".
Then, his ridiculous screed actually makes sense.
Don't think so. You're apparently just shy and wouldn't want to openly say what you would be very happy people inferred.
Vagueness: it's not just for liberals any more.
Why are you so quick to assume that this newspaper is correct and that this faithful Christian man is lying? The newspaper completly misrepresented his views and owe him an apology. Rather than issue one they let him write an essay for the paper expressing his true views. Which are nothing like what the paper attributed to him. You should read them before you cast stones.
Hmmm. I am a baptist and the our doctrine says nothing about a Christian kingdon on earth except of course the one that Christ himself establishes all by himself at the end of the age. They must be talking about the Catholic Church perhaps?
Thank you to a Freepmailer who pointed to these verses from the Bible for this thread.
Adding to post no. 25.
QUOTE:
From The Bible:
2 Timothy 4:1-4
1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
Occasionally. But I don't think it overly excites and upsets her supporters.
Note that Christians were commanded to go into the world and teach the Gospel, not conquer and enslave the unbelievers. That's the difference between Islam and Christianity. Well, a difference. The real difference is that Islam is basicly a political ideology which uses religion to win and hold control of its adherents.
Please see posts 87 and 169 for further clarification of my opinion (which matters not one whit in the great scheme of things, BTW).
I have talked to and read material from certain seminary faculty; some of them espouse sound doctrine and some don't.
The leftist elite, including many of the ministers of the pop culture churches (mega churches)believe that fundamentalist, Bible believing/teaching is a phenomona of the lower classes, the less educated, less erudite. They believe, or rather they know that religious belief stands in the way of moral relativity, which the left believes is the answer to world peace. An example of this is the statement that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter.
The fact that Christians and Jews answer to a higher power than the state is a problem for the left, so to solve this problem they have adapted an adage that I first heard in church, bend a twig in the way it should grow, while it is young and when it is grown it will not turn away. The left has entered the public schools to teach the doctrine of moral relativity. For the adults, the mega churches offer an homgenized form of Christianity, that is non-judgemental and never mentions the name of Jesus Christ.
It is the Muslims who are aggressively and violently moving to establish a Muslim kingdom -- the Ummah -- on Earth. Why isn't he calling on them to stop?
Did you read this? Pure swill from the Deceiver.
I still hold tight to my tenant that the Truth is whatever is attacked most violently by the world.
[Brief news stories can seldom do justice to substantive conversations.]
This subsequent statement by Camp says much more than anything else in the article. :^)
According to Matthew 10:34,35 Jesus said: "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law."
Oops, there it goes this theologian's "can we all get along" mindset.
What Jesus meant by this is to love Him above anyone or anything, and to love Him more than one loves their mother, father, or sibling. And the sword is a metaphorical sword, not that one Muslims use in jihads to cut people's heads off or wage war. Jesus knew that believing in him would not always bring acceptance and unity within our families, and when that time arrives those of us who believe in Him would accept the consequences no matter what the cost, and so the metaphorical sword would sometimes sever our family ties.
"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief." -- Timothy 1:15.
He didn't come to appease Muslims, Liberals, communists, or any other malcontent who wants us to reject Him.
Christians are expected to be the "salt of the earth." Jesus said it will come down to "brother against brother." There is nothing in the Scripture I have ever read that calls for watering down things to get along.
In a world that is secular I almost welcome the challenges we face day to day.
As you read Pope John Paul's Theology of the Body encyclical, we are reminded constantly that we are at war with things around us that try to break up our unity with God. It is that battle to become true followers of Christ that pleases God most. We don't capitulate our beliefs and long held obedience to God for the sake of convenience, or to make others more comfortable. In comfort comes complacency.
I am but a simple man, but I do know what is right and wrong. Being able to follow the teachings of Christ leads me to the truth. I think today many no longer know what truth is, but then again neither did Pontius Pilate. The further away we as a society stray from God, the less we know what is true; not only for us, but for our society as well.
___
For God's sake, what is with this guy?
Great post, Victoria.
"...men* of whom the world was not worthy..." Can we strive for anything less?
Nancee
*Greek word used for "men" indicates "mankind"; not male only...it's male and female.
-Pardon my butting in here, but yours is the latest in a number of complaints.--
I had no complaint.
You're so right... to take a stand is what we must do in our obedience to God.
"We felt like the larger community is calling for this," said Larry Bridgesmith, executive director of Lipscomb's newly established Institute for Conflict Management.
The "large Community" is calling for the death of conversion of all Christians!
Will you do the honors and be the first to go!
I'm not a chr*stian, but chr*stians certainly have my sympathy on this issue. "Religion" has been turned into a subjective ethno-cultural folklore "faith tradition" thingie instead of something that claims to be simple, objective truth. And everyone of every religion (except perhaps islam) seems to have this disease.
Judaism does teach a literal messianic kingdom on earth during which the entire human race will reject all false "gxds" and acknowledge HaShem. Unfortunately, the mere fact that Judaism teaches this means that most Jews don't believe it!
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