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Pope makes Turkish mosque visit ( and nearby Hagia Sophia Museum ) ( former Christian Church ? )
BBC ^ | 30 November 2006 | BBC

Posted on 11/30/2006 8:40:18 PM PST by george76

Pope Benedict XVI has visited one of Turkey's most famous mosques in what is being seen as an attempt to mend relations with the Muslim community.

During his tour of the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, the pontiff paused in silent prayer alongside senior Muslim clerics.

It marks only the second papal visit in history to a Muslim place of worship.

Earlier, the Pope visited the nearby Hagia Sophia Museum - a site heavy with Christian and Muslim symbolism - drawing around 150 protesters.

The Pope spent half an hour in Hagia Sophia, a domed complex that was once a Christian centre before becoming a mosque and eventually, a museum.

The BBC's David Willey says the Pope has been performing a delicate balancing act between creating better relations with the Orthodox Church, while also reaching out to Muslims.

The pontiff began Wednesday with a liturgical celebration by the spiritual leader of the world's Orthodox Christians, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I.

A prime reason for Pope Benedict's visit to Turkey has been to heal the centuries-old rift between the two Churches.

Patriarch Bartholomew and the Pope embraced during the service.

"The divisions which exist among Christians are a scandal to the world," the Pope said after the meeting.

(Excerpt) Read more at news.bbc.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: benedictxvi; byzantium; christian; christianbyzantium; christians; christiansymbolism; constantinople; hagia; hagiasophia; hagiasophiamuseum; muslim; muslimsymbolism; pope; popebenedictxvi; sophia; turkey
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Hagia Sophia...a former Christian Church .

.

1 posted on 11/30/2006 8:40:22 PM PST by george76
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To: SunkenCiv; Salem

" Hagia Sophia: built in 6th century as a church
converted to a mosque in 1453, a museum since 1935..."


2 posted on 11/30/2006 8:46:32 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76
Wonder how many e-mails I will get from my ultra-traditionalist friends on this one. Somebody better lock Mel Gibsons liquor cabinet also.
3 posted on 11/30/2006 8:47:01 PM PST by badpacifist (I want you, I need you. But there ain't no way I'm ever gonna love you. So don't be sad.)
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To: george76

Hagia Sophia - Perhaps THE GREATEST Christian Church ever built.....


4 posted on 11/30/2006 8:53:44 PM PST by Al Simmons
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To: badpacifist

I like your : "A Father who keeps His promises."

.


5 posted on 11/30/2006 8:56:13 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

I'd rather it be a museun than a mosque.


6 posted on 11/30/2006 8:58:42 PM PST by svxdave (Life is too short to wear a fake Rolex.)
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To: Al Simmons


7 posted on 11/30/2006 9:03:20 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

A Christian "centre" -- damn BEEB is so far gone it can't even bring itself to use the word "church".


8 posted on 11/30/2006 9:04:06 PM PST by ProtectOurFreedom
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To: ProtectOurFreedom; Mrs Ivan; M. Espinola; Salem; lizol

The BBC coninues their tradition of hating Christians...


9 posted on 11/30/2006 9:07:18 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

That's the one that's shown at the beginning of 'Midnight Express".


10 posted on 11/30/2006 9:08:45 PM PST by Senator Goldwater
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To: Senator Goldwater
Does it look like this , now ?


11 posted on 11/30/2006 9:12:03 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: SJackson; Pharmboy

Hagia Sophia -- ``Holy Wisdom'' in Greek -- rose from the ruins of an earlier church in the 6th century and now holds 15 centuries of religious and political history under its massive central dome and multicolored marble columns.

It was the architectural and spiritual marvel of Christian Byzantium until the city -- then known as Constantinople -- fell to Muslim forces in 1453.

Crosses and other Christian symbols were defaced and it became one of the most renowned mosques of the expanding Ottoman Empire.

In 1935, it again was transformed -- this time into the Ayasofya museum during the secular reforms of Mustafa Kemal Ataturk, who built modern Turkey from the Ottoman ruins.

Religious services are prohibited, and Benedict's visit Thursday is considered by Turkish officials as only sightseeing.

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/16113406.htm?source=rss


12 posted on 11/30/2006 9:16:12 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76
Hagia Sophia...a former Christian Church .

Was that a statement or a question?

Ancient capital of the world, Rome, was conquered by Emperor Constantin and moved to Byzantine Constantinople around 300 AD. Because of this political and bureaucratic move, the Roman Imperial Archives were also moved there. In 1453 when the cruel Ottoman Emperor Mehmet (aka Muhammad) II invaded Constantinople, history talks about the Muslims burning the city almost to the ground, including the Imperial Archives, for over 3 days. The lack of information regarding the so-called "dark period" in Europe is directly linked with the historical disaster of Constantinople. Actually that "dark" period was by far so, it was actually a modern and ever growing civilization which was coming straight out Constantinople. The darkness simply comes from the ashes of what was left of the most imposing and long-living empire of all times, the Roman Empire. The cultural and historical loses as a result of the barbaric behavior of the Turkish and Mongolian herds (=Ottoman Empire), loses which are so priceless, they can be compared to the disaster of Alexandria in Egypt.

Simply put, the massacre committed by the Turks was terrible, the city was looted for days, St. Sophia church was transformed into a mosque. However, there were some churches which were not destroyed, Mohammad II thinking ahead into influencing Europe by enabling a Christian jurisdiction within the Ottoman Empire, it's first Patriarch being Scholrios (or something to that matter ). And so was the end of the mighty Byzantinian Empire, following over 1000 years of existence.

These people have not changed and the Pope keeps apologizing for a true statement. The Pope needs to remember that his duty is to serve God and His Son and not to make our faith a weak one. We get plenty of this from our spineless Democrat politicians.
13 posted on 11/30/2006 9:27:07 PM PST by rxgalfl
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To: rxgalfl

Thanks.

Today, the long clash between Christendom and Islam is still evident in the political and ethnic geography of Europe, Africa, Byzantium, and north into Russia.

The battle also extends, in varying degrees, throughout the Near and Far East, and the Islands of the Pacific as well.

Many Christian knights, soldiers, and sailors have died defending Christendom against the onslaughts of Islam down through the centuries.

Today, the borders of many European countries, Canada, and the United States are practically wide open, and the old enemy is invited to come in and make himself at home.

And many 'Christians' in the West are just too busy enjoying their material prosperity to be bothered with unpleasant history.

But the enemy has not forgotten history. He remembers it all too well, and he is still deadly serious about his religion.

His goal over the years has not changed in the slightest, and he is very patient. The enemy within is now smiling, just biding his time.

And long dead Christian knights, our ancestors in the Faith, are probably turning over in their graves right about now, trying desperately to shout out a warning.

The final chapter, it seems, has yet to be written....

http://slapstickpolitics.blogspot.com/2006/10/remembering-battle-of-lepanto.html#links


14 posted on 11/30/2006 9:33:01 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76
The Pope spent half an hour in Hagia Sophia, a domed complex that was once a Christian centre before becoming a mosque and eventually, a museum.

"A domed complex." "Once a Christian centre."

You've got to be kidding me.

15 posted on 11/30/2006 9:36:09 PM PST by KellyAdmirer
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To: george76

We need a modern Vlad Tepes :) Fearless, curageous, patriot and, above all, faithful in the Lord!


16 posted on 11/30/2006 9:39:21 PM PST by rxgalfl
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To: KellyAdmirer

Not my words.

The lovely BBC...

/s


17 posted on 11/30/2006 9:40:17 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: GMMAC

18 posted on 11/30/2006 9:43:20 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: rxgalfl

Almost from the very beginning of Islam, there were wars upon wars between Christians and Moslems. We remember the Crusade wars, seven major and several minor, which lasted for centuries.

This is the story of the Battle of Lepanto, which marked the end of the Crusades and was a turning point in the history of Christianity.



Charles Martel's victory at Poitiers definitely stopped the Moslem invasion of western Europe.

In the east Christians held firm against attacks of the Moslems until 1453. In that year, Mohammed II threw huge assaults against Constantinople and by the evening of May 29 the Byzantine capital fell.

By 1571 the Moslems were firmly installed in Europe. Their ships ruled the Mediterranean Sea from the Strait of Bosporus to the Strait of Gibraltar and constantly preyed on Christian vessels unless they flew the French flag.

http://home.inreach.com/bstanley/lepanto.htm


19 posted on 11/30/2006 9:46:51 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76
Earlier, the Pope visited the nearby Hagia Sophia Museum - a site heavy with Christian and Muslim symbolism - drawing around 150 protesters.

I wonder what the Muslims will do with Notre Dame Cathedral? Or, maybe St Peters?

20 posted on 11/30/2006 10:19:30 PM PST by Mike Darancette (Democrat Happens!)
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To: george76

Thanks george. The original dome collapsed (I think it was) 13 years after the completion of the church, and was replaced with the one we see today. The current structure has withstood many earthquakes since. There's an anecdotal story about it, that when Justinian entered the completed church for the first time, he fell to his knees and said, "I have surpassed you, oh Solomon!"


21 posted on 11/30/2006 10:23:21 PM PST by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Thursday, November 16, 2006 https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: svxdave

Impressive, but it is really bedraggled looking. They can't restore it, because then they would have to uncover the mosiacs. So it is basically a shell, although a magnificent one.


22 posted on 11/30/2006 10:27:32 PM PST by RobbyS ( CHIRHO)
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To: Mike Darancette

The muzzies hope to kills us all and then turn our churches into mosques.

not just museums.


23 posted on 11/30/2006 10:29:04 PM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: KellyAdmirer
'a domed complex'. . .so; it used to be a mall?

Yes, words mean things. . .

24 posted on 11/30/2006 10:51:49 PM PST by cricket
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To: rxgalfl

I don't know where you get the idea he has apologized. He has not apologized.


25 posted on 11/30/2006 10:58:29 PM PST by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: george76

It's been over 600 years now, you about ready to get over it? Reminds me of the Islamists ranting and raveing over the loss of Spain.


26 posted on 11/30/2006 10:59:49 PM PST by Valin (Rick Santorum 08)
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To: Valin
2006 - 1453 = 553

I'm just sayin'... ;-)

27 posted on 11/30/2006 11:14:49 PM PST by Bonaparte
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To: george76
An Orthodox Church transformed into one of the wonders of the medieval world by the Roman Emperor Justinian I. After the fall of Constantinople in 1453, it became a mosque. In 1935, the Turkish Republic converted it to a museum.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus

28 posted on 11/30/2006 11:22:25 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: Bonaparte
I stand corrected..well actually I'm sitting but it'd the thought that counts...I could stand if you want...really no problem, I should stretch my legs anyway.
29 posted on 11/30/2006 11:27:23 PM PST by Valin (Rick Santorum 08)
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To: george76
It was the Roman Empire until Heraclius lost the imperial western half of the Empire reconquered by the Justinian. The Eastern Romans held out due to the Roman Navy's command of the sea and the use of the Greek fire at the Arab fleets besieging Constantinople. The Arabs never did conquer the Empire and its millenium of existence protected the West from the surging tides of Islam. By the time it was overwhelmed by the Ottomans the West was ready to stand against on its own.

"Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached." -Manuel II Paleologus

30 posted on 11/30/2006 11:28:02 PM PST by goldstategop (In Memory Of A Dearly Beloved Friend Who Lives On In My Heart Forever)
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To: rxgalfl
The Pope needs to remember that his duty is to serve God and His Son and not to make our faith a weak one. We get plenty of this from our spineless Democrat politicians.

Oh, he's plenty strong. Don't let his words fool you.

31 posted on 11/30/2006 11:44:05 PM PST by SuziQ
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To: Valin
Presumably, you're going to have to stand sooner or later, so take your time. :-)

I think George76 is entitled to roughly 47 more years of being upset about the loss of Constantinople and Hagia Sophia before he's told to cool it. It's only right that he get his full 600 years of pique. Just my humble opinion, Valin.

32 posted on 12/01/2006 12:06:59 AM PST by Bonaparte
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To: SuziQ; rxgalfl
"Oh, he's plenty strong."

He always has been. A man who has just been treated to a barrage of death threats from raging muslim fanatics, rioting in the streets, does not go into the belly of the beast like the Pope just did -- not unless he's plenty strong.

33 posted on 12/01/2006 12:12:39 AM PST by Bonaparte
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To: george76
"Religious services are prohibited, and Benedict's visit Thursday is considered by Turkish officials as only sightseeing"

With (non-Islamic) religious services being prohibited the Ottoman's might as well still be ruling.

Pope Benedict XVI,center,visits the Haghia Sophia Museum in Istanbul, Turkey, Thursday, Nov. 30, 2006. The pope is in Turkey on a four-day visit. (AP Photo/Erhan Sevenler)

34 posted on 12/01/2006 12:18:48 AM PST by M. Espinola (Freedom is never free!)
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To: All
Here is a great photo of the Cathedral of St. Sava in Belgrade, Serbia...the biggest Orthodox Church in the Balkans...begun before WWII, its foundations and first 20-30 feet of wall languished for half a century until, with the fall of communism, construction began again in 1989.....the exterior is finished as you can see, the interior will take years to decorate given its enormous size....


35 posted on 12/01/2006 1:15:04 AM PST by Al Simmons
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To: george76
It is much more than that. The Hagia Sophia (Church of the Divine Wisdom)was built by Byzantine Emperors well over a thousand years ago.

It is the symbol and standard for both Greek and Russian Orthodox churches all over the world.

If you look around you see them everywhere; as an example in Washington, D.C. there is the church of St. Sophia on Massachusetts Ave. a detailed replica.

36 posted on 12/01/2006 3:56:55 AM PST by Jimmy Valentine (DemocRATS - when they speak, they lie; when they are silent, they are stealing the American Dream)
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To: Valin

The Islamists are happy to be taking back Spain and France...soon all of Europe ?

It is not just our past losses, but also our future losses.


37 posted on 12/01/2006 6:45:25 AM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

Hagia Sophia! Inspiration of Herbert Muller's "The Uses Of The Past," and that delightful, educational adventure game "Byzantine: The Betrayal."


38 posted on 12/01/2006 7:16:19 AM PST by Graymatter
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To: sageb1

You are absolutely correct. I like this new pope, in his own way, on his own time, he is getting in the muzzie's face and pointing out just what we are up against.

We badly need world leaders willing to take this on, rather than hugging the "religion of peace" BS.


39 posted on 12/01/2006 7:51:35 AM PST by newcthem
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To: george76; fanfan; Pikamax; Former Proud Canadian; Great Dane; Alberta's Child; headsonpikes; ...
Arguably, Christianity's both most under recognized hero & military victory over the past thousand years were Jan Sobieski & his September 11th 1683 crushing of the Islamists at the gates of Vienna.


Aside from the 9/11 connection, there's a lot of other ironic & other trivia with respect to both the battle & its hero:
While Polish chauvinists would claim this as an almost exclusively "Polish" triumph, Poles - not to slight their highly valued contribution otherwise - actually made up a minority of Sobieski's fighting force; thus making "Vienna 9/11/83" a victory truly belonging to all Christendom.
Ethnic Ukrainians & troops from the Balic area were well represented as were both Scots & Irish forces.
This is the 'Celtic warrior' connection and, yes, it's reported the pipes were appropriately played both during & after the battle.
The significant involvement of the Scots is particularly interesting as it's claimed, a couple of generations later, Jan Sobieski's line intermarried with the legitimate Royal House of Scotland.

Another noteworthy claim is that Sobieski marched his army a full 2 days out of their way while otherwise rushing to lift the siege of Vienna so all could pray before the sacred image of Poland's "Black Madonna" and accordingly afterward credited & dedicated the victory to Our Lady.

At the more mundane level, even the lowly the bagel may well have been invented to honor Sobieski & celebrate the victory. OY !!!

40 posted on 12/01/2006 8:04:53 AM PST by GMMAC (Discover Canada governed by Conservatives: www.CanadianAlly.com)
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To: SuziQ
"Oh, he's plenty strong."

... and can definitely bite.

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

41 posted on 12/01/2006 8:09:20 AM PST by GMMAC (Discover Canada governed by Conservatives: www.CanadianAlly.com)
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To: GMMAC

The year is 1565. On the island of Malta, 600 Knights of St. John, commanding a force of some 8000 men, prepare to defend their island fortress from attack.

These same Catholic Knights had been driven from their previous stronghold, the Isle of Rhodes, in 1522, by the Ottoman Turks. Under Suleyman the Magnificent, the Moslems were pressing hard across Arabia, Syria, Iraq, into Egypt and northern Africa, and had established a strong foothold on the north coast of the Black Sea, the gateway to all of Europe itself. In 1526, the Hungarians had been defeated at the Battle of Mohacs, and only the Austrian Habsburgs now stood in the way of the Moslem advance. Vienna came under attack in 1529, but the Moslems were unable to take the capital, and their over-extended campaign failed.

Now, the Turks had raised a fleet of 181 ships, carrying some 30,000 soldiers, and Malta was the prize they sought. Their goal was to plunder and sweep all the ships of Christian Europe from the Mediterranean. Then, in control of the sea lanes and trade routes, with their naval and economic power supreme, all of Europe would be set to fall before them.

The Turkish fleet appeared off the coast of Malta, and laid siege to the island. All through the summer of 1565 the contest for Malta raged. In the end, the Knights of St. John (Knights of Malta) were victorious, and the Turks were forced to withdraw in defeat. It did not, however, end the threat from the Ottoman Turks.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1237489/posts


42 posted on 12/01/2006 8:17:36 AM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: george76

Paul Harvey stated today that the pope prayed facing Mecca???


43 posted on 12/01/2006 8:18:34 AM PST by Mom MD (The scorn of fools is music to the ears of the wise)
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To: Mom MD

I thought that the this Pope did not openly pray in the mosque nor at the "museum."

The previous one apparently did ?

But I may be wrong ?


44 posted on 12/01/2006 8:22:57 AM PST by george76 (Ward Churchill : Fake Indian, Fake Scholarship, and Fake Art)
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To: GMMAC

*snort*


45 posted on 12/01/2006 8:29:44 AM PST by SuziQ
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To: george76

I'm not sure, just heard this on Paul Harvey this AM, and thought one more step toward the blasphemous one world religion prophesied to take place.


46 posted on 12/01/2006 8:29:48 AM PST by Mom MD (The scorn of fools is music to the ears of the wise)
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To: george76
Bless his good soul but ...


... surely I'm not the only Catholic who finds it difficult to reconcile this image, the Doctrine of Papal Infallibility & JP II's repeated claim that Catholics shouldn't celebrate Communion with other Christians because it might tend to be confusing !?!?

Doubtless 'better' Catholics than I will now flame on.

47 posted on 12/01/2006 8:56:14 AM PST by GMMAC (Discover Canada governed by Conservatives: www.CanadianAlly.com)
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To: george76

Hey, and let's not forget that the Pope was more than happy to bow down and pray in the direction of Mecca too with his Muslim hosts.

Hey, what's a few navigational adjustments in the interest of fostering Christian/Islamic "understanding"?

Oops, better make that ISLAMIC/'christian' "understanding".

Got it.


48 posted on 12/01/2006 9:16:42 AM PST by mkjessup (The Shah doesn't look so bad now, eh? But nooo, Jimmah said the Ayatollah was a 'godly' man.)
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To: GMMAC
Here you go Mac, just a minor 'edit' in the interest of accuracy, whether JPII knew it or not.
Image Hosted by ImageShack.us
49 posted on 12/01/2006 9:30:23 AM PST by mkjessup (The Shah doesn't look so bad now, eh? But nooo, Jimmah said the Ayatollah was a 'godly' man.)
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To: mkjessup
Other than the little box in the bottom right corner, I'm somehow missing the "minor edit".

Likely, once it's explained, I'll feel really dumb and/or same will again be exposed for all to see.
50 posted on 12/01/2006 9:40:14 AM PST by GMMAC (Discover Canada governed by Conservatives: www.CanadianAlly.com)
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