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Neanderthal Women Joined Men in the Hunt (Eat your heart out, feminists)
The New York Times ^ | December 5, 2006 | NICHOLAS WADE

Posted on 12/07/2006 5:42:12 AM PST by DaveLoneRanger

A new explanation for the demise of the Neanderthals, the stockily built human species that occupied Europe until the arrival of modern humans 45,000 years ago, has been proposed by two anthropologists at the University of Arizona.

Unlike modern humans, who had developed a versatile division of labor between men and women, the entire Neanderthal population seems to have been engaged in a single main occupation, the hunting of large game, the scientists, Steven L. Kuhn and Mary C. Stiner, say in an article posted online yesterday in Current Anthropology.

Because modern humans exploited the environment more efficiently, by having men hunt large game and women gather small game and plant foods, their populations would have outgrown those of the Neanderthals.

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Extended News
KEYWORDS: crevolist; dietandcuisine; feminist; godsgravesglyphs; neandertal; neandertals; neanderthal; neanderthals
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Feminists will be furious to learn that, according to this, modern humans survived and thrived better because they decided a woman's place was in the home.
1 posted on 12/07/2006 5:42:15 AM PST by DaveLoneRanger
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To: gobucks; mikeus_maximus; JudyB1938; isaiah55version11_0; Elsie; LiteKeeper; AndrewC; Havoc; ...


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2 posted on 12/07/2006 5:42:42 AM PST by DaveLoneRanger ("I am here to fight evil and exchange good-natured barbs." - The Tick)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Unlike modern humans, who had developed a versatile division of labor between men and women, the entire Neanderthal population seems to have been engaged in a single main occupation, the hunting of large game, the scientists, Steven L. Kuhn and Mary C. Stiner,

So, because women went along on the hunts, they all starved to death?

3 posted on 12/07/2006 5:44:26 AM PST by VRWCmember
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To: DaveLoneRanger
I don't know....

It would seem there are similarities between the artist rendition of Neanderthal woman and Modern Feminist woman. Maybe they did survive.


4 posted on 12/07/2006 5:47:54 AM PST by edpc (Violence is ALWAYS a solution. Maybe not the right one....but a solution nonetheless)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/2006/12/06/


5 posted on 12/07/2006 5:48:25 AM PST by tarawa
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To: DaveLoneRanger



I can see it now….



Neanderthal woman: “Thor….there it is … spear it”

Neanderthal man: “Hush woman! It’s not close enough”

Neanderthal woman; “Don’t hush me!”

Neanderthal man: “Zena …. You’re gonna’ scare it away … now shut up already!”

Neanderthal woman: “ Zog over there kills Mammoth with no problems…. Why don’t you hunt like him?”



6 posted on 12/07/2006 5:51:00 AM PST by Fighting Irish (My opinions have been forged by where I've walked - not by who I hear on the radio)
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To: VRWCmember

"So, because women went along on the hunts, they all starved to death?"

All that talkin ya know, it scares away the animals.


7 posted on 12/07/2006 5:58:13 AM PST by driftdiver
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To: Fighting Irish

Which came first: the nagging or the division of labor?


8 posted on 12/07/2006 5:58:41 AM PST by true_blue_texican (...against all enemies, foreign and domestic...)
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To: Fighting Irish
LOL

Zena: Thag! Where have you been. Can't you see the fire has burnt down?

Thag: Uhh... I had to hunt late.

Zena: Oh, sure. Mr. Big Hunter. Who's hair is that caught in your fingers? HUH? I'll tell you right now Mr. Smarty Loincloth, the next time you have to "hunt late", I'm coming along!
9 posted on 12/07/2006 5:59:25 AM PST by stormer (Get your bachelors, masters, or doctorate now at home in your spare time!)
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To: VRWCmember

Well, who's home growing the potatoes and carrots to put on the plate next to the big game they kill?

It makes sense...


10 posted on 12/07/2006 6:00:53 AM PST by PissAndVinegar
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Neanderthal wife: "We're never going to find game wandering around like this. Why don't we stop and ask somebody?"


11 posted on 12/07/2006 6:03:18 AM PST by Spok (What if the Hokey Pokey IS what it's all about?)
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To: VRWCmember
So, because women went along on the hunts, they all starved to death?

"I think you should use the OAK club on the gazelle, Grock. Run faster! You let him get away! How do you feel about that? We should have a nice salad with this. We should move into a better cave. Are you listening to me, Grock?"

12 posted on 12/07/2006 6:10:54 AM PST by 50sDad (I respect other religions by allowing them the right to worship. But they still are wrong.)
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To: Fighting Irish

LOL!

But seriously, my pioneer great grandparents hunted, farmed, and cooked together. Didn't have much choice in the matter.


13 posted on 12/07/2006 6:14:42 AM PST by redgolum ("God is dead" -- Nietzsche. "Nietzsche is dead" -- God.)
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To: stormer

LOL!!!!!!!!!


14 posted on 12/07/2006 6:20:09 AM PST by Fighting Irish (My opinions have been forged by where I've walked - not by who I hear on the radio)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Does this mean we get to sneer at feminists as 'neanderthals'?


15 posted on 12/07/2006 6:42:03 AM PST by The_Reader_David (And when they behead your own people in the wars which are to come, then you will know. . .)
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To: edpc

Hmmm... the one on the left's kinda cute.


16 posted on 12/07/2006 6:55:36 AM PST by Jack Hammer
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To: DaveLoneRanger
The opinion of two anthropologists....yes, this could have some validity - but the usual case is that we today in vanity and ignorance reduce to our frame of reference all of history.

If the women were in on the big hunt, maybe it was because they kept the menfolk warm at night. And if they did this, it would seem that a lot of little Neanderthals were in the making.

And if they were with little Neanderthal, how eventually could they be in on the hunt?? The missus would be at home, taking care of and preparing for (more) kiddies,and almost surely foraging for, yes, plant food.

They may have been Neanderthals and become extinct; but you have to wonder how many of today's population are headed down the same path - many do not have the DNA and simple learning for survival -

Witness the disintegration of the family, its inverse evolution.
17 posted on 12/07/2006 7:03:41 AM PST by mtntop3
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To: VRWCmember
Unlike modern humans, who had developed a versatile division of labor between men and women, the entire Neanderthal population seems to have been engaged in a single main occupation, the hunting of large game, the scientists, Steven L. Kuhn and Mary C. Stiner, So, because women went along on the hunts, they all starved to death?

More likely, because the Neanderthals fought at close quarters with their prey, the women took as many casualties as the men.

18 posted on 12/07/2006 7:08:43 AM PST by jmcenanly (Do not handicap your children by making their lives easy. -- Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

The men had to have someone to carry the beer.


19 posted on 12/07/2006 7:17:16 AM PST by wildbill
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To: wildbill

And backrubs. Someone had to give the men backrubs.


20 posted on 12/07/2006 8:11:24 AM PST by -=SoylentSquirrel=- (I'm boycotting Best Buy, so yay for me.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Somehow I just don't buy this.
Most of stone age humans' sustenance came from animal protein, not fruits and veggies.
Did they turn down any freebie fruits and veggies that they found? Heck no, but for their primary sustenance, especially during the winter months, they depended on meat.
Remember, this was before the advent of farming or a staid lifestyle of being able to can produce for storage.

If you have more people hunting it sure does seem like you would get more meat, if you're using the same methods.

Logically, this doesn't pass the smell test.

21 posted on 12/07/2006 8:20:19 AM PST by Just another Joe (Warning: FReeping can be addictive and helpful to your mental health)
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To: edpc

Whoa! The one on the left is HOT!


22 posted on 12/07/2006 9:31:29 AM PST by dljordan
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To: jmcenanly
"More likely, because the Neanderthals fought at close quarters with their prey, the women took as many casualties as the men."

Now now.

This is just story-telling. You have no idea what Neanderthals did or did not do.

Let's not pretend we know and then imagine that our stories are truth.

23 posted on 12/07/2006 9:54:28 AM PST by GourmetDan
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To: Just another Joe
"Most of stone age humans' sustenance came from animal protein, not fruits and veggies."

Again, more pretend understanding to support imaginary stories made up out of whole cloth.

You don't really know this. You think this is true.

24 posted on 12/07/2006 9:56:17 AM PST by GourmetDan
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To: Spok
Neanderthal wife: "We're never going to find game wandering around like this. Why don't we stop and ask somebody?"

Neanderthal male: "Because there is nobody to ask directions OF!"
25 posted on 12/07/2006 9:57:24 AM PST by DaveLoneRanger ("I am here to fight evil and exchange good-natured barbs." - The Tick)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

What if Neanderthals were only "a Yarn" told by "EVOS"?...


26 posted on 12/07/2006 10:01:24 AM PST by hosepipe (CAUTION: This propaganda is laced with hyperbole)
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To: GourmetDan
I don't pretend to be an expert but using logic, there aren't that many sources of fruits and veggies during the winter unless you store them.
As far as I know, there haven't been any digs of stone age man found that showed they stored fruits and veggies through the winter. Therefore, most of their sustenance came through animal protein.

Again, using the same methods, more people hunting usually means more prey caught.
Now if hunting methods differ, now we're talkiing about a whole new ballgame.

27 posted on 12/07/2006 10:03:09 AM PST by Just another Joe (Warning: FReeping can be addictive and helpful to your mental health)
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To: edpc

Oh God, Don't do that.

You ruined my vision of a cave girl as looking like Barbara Bach in a fur bikini.


28 posted on 12/07/2006 10:03:36 AM PST by NavyCanDo
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To: Just another Joe
"I don't pretend to be an expert but using logic.."

The point is that you should communicate so that it is clear that you are saying what you 'think' rather than writing as though you know.

Blatant statements like, 'Because this' or 'We know that' are deceiving because you don't.

29 posted on 12/07/2006 10:07:12 AM PST by GourmetDan
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Bertha... Bertha Butt... one of the Butt sisters...
30 posted on 12/07/2006 10:10:34 AM PST by johnny7 ("We took a hell of a beating." -'Vinegar Joe' Stilwell)
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To: DaveLoneRanger
Feminists will be furious to learn that, according to this, modern humans survived and thrived better because they decided a woman's place was in the home.

I'm not sure the researcher's whole argument is really applicable. I may not be up to date, in that I'm not sure the result has held up over time, but I recall research from some years ago regarding a study of stress patterns in Neanderthal leg bones. It indicated a heavy predominance of lateral stresses, indicating that Neanderthals spent most of their time walking on uneven ground, along hillsides, etc. Anatomically modern sapiens, by contrast, showed stress patterns indicative of smoother striding gaits.

The conclusion was that Neanderthals, unlike sapiens, probably seldom covered large distances, and may even have typically spent their whole lives in a single river valley or other similarly small geographic area.

If this is true -- that Neanderthals didn't track game animals over large distances, but only hunted them opportunistically when they were within a limited range -- then there isn't that much significance one way or the other to women accompanying men on hunts.

Hunts among primitive hunter/gatherers are often very significant projects covering spans of day, weeks, even months. It may have been nothing like that with Neanderthals. If their hunts were short, opportunistic affairs then I'd think it would be, if anything, MORE (not, as this researcher suggests, less) adaptive to have the entire group, including both sexes, participate.

31 posted on 12/07/2006 10:13:37 AM PST by Stultis
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To: GourmetDan
It is a fact borne out by science that more sustenance for stone age man came from animal protein than from fruits and veggies.
That's not just my opinion.
I can draw logical conclusions from that.

I'm not saying that modern humans didn't win out because of a division of labor that the Neanderthals did not use.
I'm saying that logically, from the facts we do know, it wasn't because that division of labor gave more food during the winter.

32 posted on 12/07/2006 10:15:16 AM PST by Just another Joe (Warning: FReeping can be addictive and helpful to your mental health)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

Total nonsense! The men hunted big game with their bare hands while the wimmin gossiped about the men back home around the fire. The lead hunter would jump out from behind a rock or a tree and crack the aurochs or mammoth right in the nose and then the rest of the men would run up and try to strangle the beast. That's what the wimmin gossipped about, whose turn it was to jump out in front of the sabretooth tiger.


33 posted on 12/07/2006 10:21:03 AM PST by RightWhale (RTRA DLQS GSCW)
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To: Just another Joe
"It is a fact borne out by science that more sustenance for stone age man came from animal protein than from fruits and veggies."

You don't understand what science is and what it is not.

Science is observable, testable and repeatable. Speculations about sustenance-levels for 'stone age man' are just that, speculations.

In order to be science, they would need to be observable, testable and repeatable. They are none of the above.

34 posted on 12/07/2006 10:41:14 AM PST by GourmetDan
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To: GourmetDan
Science is observable, testable and repeatable. Speculations about sustenance-levels for 'stone age man' are just that, speculations.

From samplings of bone, teeth, waste dumps/pits, etc found in archeological digs related to the stone age scientists have discovered that humans during that period ate a largely meat diet.

Sorry to say that I do know what science is and is not, and the difference between proven scientific fact and an opinion.

You might want to brush up on the subject you're pontificating on.

35 posted on 12/07/2006 10:49:16 AM PST by Just another Joe (Warning: FReeping can be addictive and helpful to your mental health)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

women went along on the hunts.....Hell, yes. Easier than tryin' to find some OTHER bait. Sheesh.


36 posted on 12/07/2006 10:57:45 AM PST by Safetgiver (Stinko De mayo, Stinko to the Commies.)
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To: DaveLoneRanger

I'm a feminist and I'm not furious at this. It proves that women's contributions to survival were equally vital to the survival and success of our species. This theory makes a lot of sense ... to survive and thrive, people have to work together and diversity is strength. Everyone doing the same task is redundant and not sustainable in the long run.

This is true in any organization or human endeavor by the way ... even in sports, not every member of the team has the same strength and the same task ... it takes a variety of skills and abilities to win. The examples are endless.

The point of feminism is that historically women's contributions have not been equally VALUED along with men's in society.

The women who gathered the berries and created vessels for storing food for hard times do not get as much credit as the hunters who brought home the wooly mammouth for lunch. But in reality, both tasks were equally valuable in terms of survival.


37 posted on 12/07/2006 10:59:57 AM PST by Lorianne
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To: Just another Joe
"From samplings of bone, teeth, waste dumps/pits, etc found in archeological digs related to the stone age scientists have discovered that humans during that period ate a largely meat diet."

No, from samplings scientists *believe* that humans during that period ate a largely meat diet. They are, after all, samplings and you cannot claim they represent an actual observation and measurement of what 'humans ate during that period'. Clearly, they are speculations based on samples.

"Sorry to say that I do know what science is and is not, and the difference between proven scientific fact and an opinion."

I think you just proved yourself wrong. But that's OK. It's normal among those who have never been taught you to make a distinction between evidence and interpretations of evidence.

38 posted on 12/07/2006 11:04:07 AM PST by GourmetDan
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To: GourmetDan
"More likely, because the Neanderthals fought at close quarters with their prey, the women took as many casualties as the men."
Now now.

This is just storytelling. You have no idea what Neanderthals did or did not do.

Let's not pretend we know and then imagine that our stories are truth.</i>
We do know that both sexes suffered a lot of broken bones,and we have also found knives, but very few weapons like bows or speaar throwers.

But as for being failures, consider that the Neanderthal line lasted for tens of thousands of years in some of the most inhospitable climates. It is not enough to ask what killed them off, but also how they lasted so long.


39 posted on 12/07/2006 11:06:54 AM PST by jmcenanly (Do not handicap your children by making their lives easy. -- Robert A. Heinlein)
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To: jmcenanly
"We do know that both sexes suffered a lot of broken bones,and we have also found knives, but very few weapons like bows or speaar throwers."

All that tells you is that, among the evidence that you found, both sexes suffered a lot of broken bones and that you found knives but very few weapons like bows or spear throwers.

That's all it really means.

Everything beyond that is purely in the realm of speculation and that is the difference between science and story-telling.

40 posted on 12/07/2006 11:11:10 AM PST by GourmetDan
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To: GourmetDan
Based on the samples from the digs, verified against samples from modern day when they KNOW what was eaten, scientists can tell what was eaten and in what general quantities.
If this isn't close enough for you then you need to build a time machine for ANY facts, related to ANY subject, that you haven't verified, in person.

Now, we can argue about what science is, or is not, or we can discuss what you think about my speculation.

Do you want argument or discussion?

41 posted on 12/07/2006 11:11:39 AM PST by Just another Joe (Warning: FReeping can be addictive and helpful to your mental health)
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To: VRWCmember
So, because women went along on the hunts, they all starved to death?

Yeah. The incessant yapping scared off the game.

I'm sooo dead here...

42 posted on 12/07/2006 11:13:15 AM PST by null and void (To succeed in life, you need three things: a wishbone, a backbone and a funnybone. --Reba McEntire)
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To: Jack Hammer
Hmmm... the one on the left's kinda cute.

The one on the right is kinda drunk...

43 posted on 12/07/2006 11:15:09 AM PST by null and void (To succeed in life, you need three things: a wishbone, a backbone and a funnybone. --Reba McEntire)
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To: Lorianne
"The point of feminism is that historically women's contributions have not been equally VALUED along with men's in society."

If that were true, then the emphasis of feminism would be on changing the value perception of women's contributions.

Unfortunately, feminism is about competing with men to show that women can do 'what men do' as well as men rather than about increasing the appreciation for 'what women do'.

As a result, 'what women do' is further de-valued by the feminists themselves resulting in a society where even the women do not value 'what women do'.

Women can't see that, but men can.

44 posted on 12/07/2006 11:15:45 AM PST by GourmetDan
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To: The_Reader_David
Does this mean we get to sneer at feminists as 'neanderthals'?

LOLOLOL

Yes.

45 posted on 12/07/2006 11:21:58 AM PST by Tribune7
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To: Just another Joe
"Based on the samples from the digs, verified against samples from modern day when they KNOW what was eaten, scientists can tell what was eaten and in what general quantities."

"If this isn't close enough for you then you need to build a time machine for ANY facts, related to ANY subject, that you haven't verified, in person."

It's not about what's 'close enough'. It's about what is science and what is not.

Again, if it isn't observable, measureable and repeatable; it isn't science. It's story-telling.

You would need a time-machine so you could go back and perform the definitive work required for these speculations to be called science. Unfortunately, you can't do that and therefore this can never be 'science'.

Now you can like story-telling if you want, just don't call it science. It isn't.

46 posted on 12/07/2006 11:22:06 AM PST by GourmetDan
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To: Just another Joe
I don't pretend to be an expert but using logic, there aren't that many sources of fruits and veggies during the winter unless you store them. As far as I know, there haven't been any digs of stone age man found that showed they stored fruits and veggies through the winter. Therefore, most of their sustenance came through animal protein.

Actually we know what stone age people did during the winter. There were lots of them on the American continents 150 years ago. Those in the cold areas gathered and stored roots, berries and grains, smoked and dried meats, huddled down and tried to not freeze.

47 posted on 12/07/2006 11:22:25 AM PST by LexBaird (98% satisfaction guaranteed. There's just no pleasing some people.)
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To: GourmetDan
The broken bone patterns are mirrored in one modern group: Rodeo riders. Either they spent a LOT of time trying to domesticate the horse and bull, or they spent a lot of time trying to take down large animals up close and entirely too personal.
48 posted on 12/07/2006 11:22:33 AM PST by null and void (To succeed in life, you need three things: a wishbone, a backbone and a funnybone. --Reba McEntire)
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To: Fighting Irish

LOL, I was just going to post something like that.


49 posted on 12/07/2006 11:23:53 AM PST by dfwgator
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To: dljordan

You're flagged.

50 posted on 12/07/2006 11:25:29 AM PST by Tribune7
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