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To: Popman
Your arrogance is especially ugly when coated in spiritually

Arrogant I well might be, but please do not accuse me of being spiritual, let alone coating anything I say in spirituality. I can say a lot of things about spirituality, but the only relevant thing is that I am not.

It is not I but Paul who says if you do not believe in the literal physical resurrection of Jesus then dont even bother. You probably know the cite.

And you are far far more intelligent than I if you understand the concept of Logos.

But what is so discouraging, is that many Christians are no different from leftists and liberals in their uselessness or worse when confronting islam.

Many Christians do not have the intellectual fortitude to confront islam. In effect, their pov is: I am religious, they are religious, we have more in common than not, and if I criticize them, the same arguments will be used against me.

This, I believe, is one major reason our President cannot face the truth or tell it.

It appears that free men and not Christians will be fighting this war on the field of truth.

118 posted on 12/17/2006 7:26:18 AM PST by Urbane_Guerilla
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To: Urbane_Guerilla
Many Christians do not have the intellectual fortitude to confront islam.

Spoken like a left winger.

I do realize Christians have been systematically portrayed by the MSM as willing sheeple that will follow any fire breathing preacher and check their mind at the door of the church. That number is a small majority.

Anyone who actually thinks about the best way to confront Islam without painting all Muslims as radical jihadists is written off as weak willed or as a tool of Islam as you accuse me. Nothing is further from the truth.

It appears that free men and not Christians will be fighting this war on the field of truth.

You have no idea what you are talking about

The Christian who is willing to confront Muslims in truth, love and hope is the only way to win this war of ideas. We will need superior firepower to rein in the real wacko's to protect ourselves, but to win the hearts and minds will not be at the point of a gun.

Believe me, I know. I have supported and worked with missionaries who have been working in the Sudan. These people put their literal lives on the line every single day to reach Muslims. They have lost children, property in their work.

These people who have walked to walk and talked the talk.

119 posted on 12/17/2006 8:01:56 AM PST by Popman ("What I was doing wasn't living, it was dying. I really think God had better plans for me.")
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To: Urbane_Guerilla
This is an excellent thread Urbane. Don't be disappointed by those who totally miss your point. Propaganda is a dry and esoteric field. My own modest pieces (linked to on my home page)have, over the last year, racked up more than 2000 views each. I just checked the views on your piece, it hit 2213 in just one day. Despite the naysayers (more often than not they were far off your core points vis-a-vis propaganda and the effect it could have in deconstructing the Mohammedan Death Cult), you have pulled in and stimulated many readers with this piece. As I said in my brief comment earlier, it's well structured and thought provoking.

I'd like to address each or your points one by one, but right now I don't have the time to indulge.

However, for now here are a couple of superb references which I think you will enjoy and can certainly assist you in your analysis.

Ibn Warraq is a real live ex-Muslim who can give us the down low on Mad Mo's dirty cult of death. He has written two books that I'm aware of. Below are links to his two books on Amazon, and one top review for each book:
Why I Am Not a Muslim

555 of 696 people found the following review helpful:

A review by a former Muslim, May 12, 2002 Reviewer: A reader

In Why I Am Not A Muslim, Ibn Warraq, exposes the bitter truth about Islam without sugarcoating it. He is learned and his book is well documented. He lashes out at the western intellectuals who instead of condemning the assassination order of a savage man like Khomeini against Salman Rushdi, chose to criticize Rushdi for his book The Satanic Verses because it was not "politically correct". Warraq talks about the brutal treatments of all those who fell under the domination of Islam, from the time of Muhammad to the present days. He talks about the minorities, philosophers, women and slaves in Islam. Jews were massacred and exiled by Muhammad in Medina and Kheibar; their belongings were distributed among the "believers", their women and children taken as slaves. This heinous act of barbarism was repeated time and again throughout history with Christians, Zoroastrians, Hindus, and in recent years with Ahmedies, Baha'is and other minorities in Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, India, Syria and everywhere Islam reined.

Warraq talks about the origin of Islam, its pagan background and the influence of Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism on Muhammad. He talks about the origin of Allah in Arab culture, about the early days of Muhammad as a preacher and his rivalry with another storyteller "Al Nadir" and his revenge against him. Warraq traces back the origin of many Islamic rituals to Arab superstitions and Muhammad's strange belief in jinns, demons and other shadowy beings. He also describes how Muhammad rehashed the biblical nonsense about creation, Noah's Ark, birth of Christ etc. while misunderstanding a lot of it, like confusing Mary the mother of Christ with Miriam sister of Aaron, or the Christian belief in Trinity. You will learn about Muhammad's bizarre view of cosmology, science, history, and medicine. (He prescribed drinking the urine of camel as a remedy against stomachache!).

Then you will learn about Muhammad's metamorphosis from preacher to despot. How his call for tolerance, when he was still in Mecca and weak changed to the cry of killing and looting when he became powerful in Medina. You will learn how Muhammad encouraged his handful of followers to attack the caravans, kill the men, rape the women and bring the booty (20% for himself) to please Allah, while assuring them that if they are killed their rewards will be young boys, rivers of wine, and many hurries in the other world. All what Warraq says is backed by Quran and Ahadith.

The reader becomes familiar with Muhammad's favorite way of eliminating his opponents, namely assassination. Asma Bint Marwan a poetess who wrote against the prophet was assassinated by his order in the middle of the night while nursing her infant. Her five small children where forced to convert to Islam. Muhammad's hit list also included Ka'b Ibn al-Ashraf and Abu Rafi who spoke against him and had to be taken out traitorously. This policy was adopted by Muslims throughout the history and is being practiced up to this day. What we call terrorism, to a Muslim is Jihad (holy war). The much-publicized fetwa against Rushdi is an example. Among other things we learn about Muhammad's preference for young girls (Ayesha was 9 years old when he consummated his "marriage" with her) rather at an advanced age and how he is unabashed to make Allah reveal Quranic verses to justify his lust for women and his sexual appetite.

Warraq makes a thorough study of the totalitarian nature of Islam. He even goes as far as to compare the impact of monotheism on human rights versus polytheism and atheism. For all those who still wonder why Muslims hate so much the west I recommend reading this book. There is a whole chapter dedicated to this subject.

Warraq talks about "Arab Imperialism and Islamic Colonialism". He explains eloquently how through Islam, many civilized nations lost their identity, their dignity and humanity to bow in front of a savage god of a bunch of uncultured Arabs and follow the wimps of a fanatic and schizophrenic bloodthirsty madman of Arabia. Islam is the enemy of science, of freethinking, of reason and of human rights. It acts as a powerful break on the advancement of civilization. Warraq keenly points out that "Islamic Civilization" is a contradiction in terms. You can either be Islamic or civilized. In another place he argues that also "Islamic Philosophy" is a contradiction in terms, because philosophy was regarded as a "foreign science, which led to heresy, doubt, and total unbelief". Brilliant minds like Zacharia Razi and Avicena never believed in Islam and were attacked by Muslims. More recent intellectuals and freethinkers don't fare better. For example Ali Dashti, the brilliant scholar and the author of "23 years"; a book written about Muhammad and his 23 years of prophetic life, was incarcerated while in his 80s during Khomeni's rule and died in prison. In Warraq's own words: "Thus we had the spectacle of periodic persecution of various group considered either doctrinally suspect or politically subversive; individuals (philosophers, poets, theologians, scientists, rationalists, dualists, freethinkers, and mystics) were imprisoned, tortured, crucified, mutilated, and hanged; their writings burned. Significantly, none of the heretical works of Ibn Rawandi, Ibn Warraq, Ibn al-Muqaffa, and al-Razi has survived. Other individuals are forced to flee from one ruler to another more tolerant ruler (e.g. al-Amidi). Some were exiled or banished (Averroes). Many were forced to disguise their true views and opinions by difficult or ambiguous language. Those who managed to get away with blasphemy were those protected by the powerful and influential."

And in Leaving Islam: Apostates Speak Out

202 of 239 people found the following review helpful:

Islam Smothers Dissent and Basic Human Rights, July 10, 2003

Reviewer: "jbgordon38" (Tesuque, NM) - See all my reviews Ibn Warraq, who has several Fatwas issued against him by Islamist clerics has bravely sallied forth to explicate the tenuous status of former Muslims who for a variety of reasons have abandoned the faith. These apostates are under the threat of death given the clerical rulings in Islam. Some of the testifiers have been brave enough to use their real names!

Most prominent among these testimonials is the clear evidence of the lack of basic human rights as allegedly guaranteed under the UN Declaration of Human Rights circa 1948. Muslim countries have signed the UN declaration but consider the act as religiously correct dissimultude-taqqiya in Arabic.

Among the more stunning revelations among the testimonials is the genocide wreaked on the Bengalis by the Islamic Paki overlords in the early 70's of the last century. An estimated 3.5 million Bengalis were slaughtered in this religious Jihad. Some of you may be old enough to remember the plaintive Beatles tune: Bengladesh. This genocide cries out the certification before the World Court and prosecution of some of the organizers of this heinous event.

Testimonials of former Muslim women, brave enough to reveal their actual identity, clearly indicate the second class status in violation of the UN declaration of human rights.

Former converts to Islam who are included in these testimonials have given witness to the lack of basic human rights and the atavistic male domination prevalent in Muslim cricles and countries.

Overall, Ibn Warraq-his nom de guerre, has given us a powerful insight into the fundamental failings of the islamic faith to build reform from within and protect basic human rights. It is no wonder several Fatwas demanding his death have been issued. He's very religiously incorrect, but courageous.

His works deserve a wide readership in a western world ignorant of the fundamentals of the islamic faith.
I would like a chance to address some of the points on your list, and will be able to over the next few days. Thanks for posting this stimulating thread!
143 posted on 12/18/2006 8:49:03 AM PST by starbase (Understanding Written Propaganda (click "starbase" to learn 22 manipulating tricks!!))
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