Skip to comments.David Irving: Jews should ask themselves why they are hated
Posted on 12/23/2006 1:58:30 PM PST by West Coast Conservative
Holocaust denier David Irving on Friday said Jews should ask themselves why they have been hated throughout history.
"They [Jews] should ask themselves the question, 'Why have they been so hated for 3000 years that there has been pogrom after pogrom in country after country?', said Irving, speaking at a press conference he convened in England on Friday, a day after he was released from an Austrian prison.
Irving, who was sentenced to three years in prison for denying the Holocaust, was released last week after his appeal was granted.
Asked if he sees himself as anti-Semitic, Irving said, "No, I like to think I am not."
But immediately following his answer, Irving expressed his support for Mel Gibson's comments that "The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world."
Irving also took pride in the success of his books and claimed that he the fortune he made from sales of his biography on World War II German General Erwin Rommel enabled him to walk into a car showroom with a paper bag stuffed with cash to buy a "Nigger brown Rolls-Royce."
Irving's comments aroused great anger within Britain's Jewish community.
Lord Janner, president of the Holocaust Educational Trust, said Irving's release was "unwarranted" and that Irving's "latest comments were totally to be expected and should be totally ignored."
(Excerpt) Read more at haaretz.com ...
That would seem a cogent question. I don't know if Jews need be the only one to offer an answer but it does beg an answer.
I know I have found it curious enough to wonder why.
Why did Portugal and Spain turn the Jews out?
Why did England drive out the Jews in 1290?
Why did France push away the Jews in 1306 and again in 1394?
Why did Belgium exile the Jews in 1370 and Czechoslovakia exiles them in 1380?
Why did Holland drive out the Jews in 1444?
Why did Italy turn the Jews out in 1540?
Why did Germany push the Jews out in 1551?
Why did Russia exile the Jews in 1510?
If cogent answers are not forth coming perhaps at least opinions can be shared and discussed. There had to be a reason. We could even discussion why no answers are offered.
Discovering the reason does not mean you have to adopt the reason. It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. Aristotle
Even when I am paying attention to it (which is all the time) I still manage to mess it up. You're right it's a little "c" in the creed. I manage to screw up "church" and "Church" too.
Per the "united", the Holy Father's title is "The Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church". I'm guessing that'll raise a few hairs, too.
David Irving is intellectually incapable of accepting the Truth, which is:
The Jews are God's chosen people, they are His Nation, and like it or not, Jesus Christ IS a Jew, the KING of the Jews, in addition to King of kings and Lord of lords, and when He returns to establish His Kingdom on this Earth, He will rule from Jerusalem, and there won't be any protests, objections or even a raised eyebrow from ANYone, because His Will shall be done.
And if that isn't enough for David Irving and the rest of the world's Jew-haters and Christ-haters, "every knee shall bow, and every tongue shall confess, that Jesus Christ is LORD!"
I can hardly wait to watch all those Muslims comply.
But I thought the Jews just popped out of nowhere two thousand years ago, and those other people you read about in the "old testament" were actually aryan chr*stian Israelites, the ancestors of today's anti-Semites? [/sarcasm]
But something tells me Irving (mach shemo!) is more of an atheist skull-measurer than Klucker.
It would seem strange though that a territory as small as Judea, which is not super-fertile to boot (though moreso than some of the surround region) would have such a large popultion.
"That give me a bit of a start. "
I'm think ing St. Thomas More probably pulled a quarter turn in the grave, as well.
Lawyers-a profession it is to disguise matters. -- St. Thomas More
It seemed contradictory that they would consider themselves Christian and yet consider ethnic Jews subhuman.
Well lawyers wrote in law French in Britain until the 18th century. Thus nobody knew what they were doing, and they fashioned the common law right under the noses of parliament, usurping some of its power. By the time parliament figured it out, it was too late. And there you have it.
If the fashionable pumps fit... :D
The Jewish population was not limited to "Palestine." The Disapora extended to most of the known world. Jews are known to have been in China, and India as well as Ethioipia. My quess is that neighbors were drawn to the Jewish faith. Christian missionaries seems to have followed Jewish routes. So "Jews" were also persons of other races, plus they had fellow-travelers who patronized the Jews but stopped short of actual membership. (Easier for women than men to get in, of course).
So do most Western democracies, at least to a far greater extent than the US. Don't get me wrong; I'm a big fan of the US approach, and I'm as close to absolutist on the 1st Amendment as I am on anything. And I agree that attempting to shut down speech just drives it underground, and the more effective strategy is to drag it into the open and counter it.
But America isn't the world; even in free, pluralistic democracies, most people in the world have more faith in government than Americans do. We're fronteir folk. The foundation of our national philosophy came from folks who crossed the ocean at great risk with no guarantees, just to be left the hell alone.
Even Canadians, who are as culturally similar to Americans as anyone elese on Earth, have far more tolerance for restrictions than we do. On the spectrum between freedom and order, there's a pretty broad range that can still be considered free and democratic, and Americans are pretty much outliers at the freedom end of the line.
The facts that most Western (and Westerm-influenced, like Japan, S. Korea and Turkey) democracies accept more restrictions on speech and also tolerate higher taxes in exchange for a more comprehensive welfare state are not coincidental. They're both symptoms of the same underlying cause, that most folks trust their governments more than we do and trust individual initiative and corporate power less.
It's easy to defend the American version of things philosophically, and there are plenty of people who can do it better than I. It's also pretty easy to point at America's unprecedented material prosperity and military power as a sign of its pragmatic value. But the fact that like-minded societies differ from ours by degrees doesn't make them antithetical.
Irving set out to make himself a martyr. He made it his mission to test the law, and he lost. He wanted to be Europe's version of Larry Flynt, to stretch the envelope, but the difference is he chose the wrong cause and the wrong venue.
David Irving has more important things to worry about than Jews.
Hmmm, this scenario sounds familiar.
By the way, how many pages are there in the EU's Constitution?
This is memorably captured in "Little Big Man," one of my favorite movies, where the tribe calls itself simply "the human beings."
And their names for the next tribe over usually go back to "the other people," or "the evil people," or "those cannibals over the hill."
One of the enduring controversies in American anthropology is what to call the pre-Columbian cliff-dwellers in the Four Corners region, whom Westerners have traditionally called the "Anasazi." Anasazi is a Navajo word that means, more or less, "our ancient enemies." The Hopi, who consider themselves the descendents of ... um, those folks, still bristle at the name.
The only really obnoxious, but very smart, one I ever knew was indeed from New York City. He was a walking talking stereotype. His name was even Stanley, like the doorman in Crocidile Dundee.
Some of the co-crazies of Mr. Irving beat the snot out of him one day, came really close to killing him in fact. He wasn't *that* obnoxious, especially for a PhD physicist. Fortunately his company took good care of him, even flying his mother in to Dallas from New York City.
It wasn't until the mid-to-late 17th Century in most European countries that jews were allowed to own property, serve in the rulers' military, practice the learned professions of law, medicine or clergy and most businessmen tradesmmen engaged in patent discrimination by sub rosa not hiring jews or blantly posting notices that ''Jews need not apply.'' Thus, virtually the only areas of commerce and employment available were banking and becoming one's own small business owner. In those fields most showed such adeptness and acumen that many were able to accumulate significant wealth. Without the ability to reinvest such proceeds in real property and since lending and the collection of interest were without any adverse moral taint, they often became the object of even greater and widespred scorn by the rest of society.
Not any of them that I knew. Two were my next door neighbors in Plano Texas for Pete's sake. One was from Memphis or somewhere in Tennessee, the others were from Missouri, she from Kansas City, he from St. Louis. Her parents could, if they were still living (which they might be, but doubtful, they were OLD when they had her), having come through the death camps that Irving says didn't exist. His family, great grandparents I think, came in through the port of Galveston, rather than Ellis Island, around 1900 sometime. She used to like to dress up as a witch, big nose, green face, and all, for Halloween. Can't get much more part of Americana than that. She made a great witch too, having her own long dark hair, and other witch-like features, only the nose and skin color were artificial, scared the pee right out of a few little kids.
They did celebrate Hanneka rather than Christmas, and Passover rather than Easter. They especially liked the Fourth of July. and he is gun owner. My younger daughter and their older one were great friends. They also owned a timber shepherd, who thought she was a cat.
Not everywhere. Pre 1900, Jews in Poland and Russia were farmers, small shopkeepers and pretty much the lower level of society. Not all of them of course.
OTOH, not a few Jews in Italy, Spain, Turkey, especially Turkey, were the "rich bankers and merchants" of the stereotype.
6. They are big supporters of socialism which tends to turn conservatives against them.
That's a recent thing, late 19th and 20th century mostly. Jews were persecuted and hated long before then.
Dumbest thing I've heard in many moons, except when reading Supreme Court decisions of late. Why would the Soviets pressure people to underestimate how many Germans the English had killed? If anything they'd want the Brits to look bad. OTOH, maybe they didn't want the Brits to get the credit for killing so many Germans. Germans not being held in high regard at the time.
That's part of the Nicene Creed, which Lutherans, and many others, use as well as Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox. In that Context "Catholic" means something like "Universal" not necessarily "Roman Catholic".
The version from the Lutheran Service Book (2006) reads:
And I believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church, I acknowledge one Baptism for the remission of sins, and I look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
There's even a Arabic version of the creed. (Because there are several types of Arab Christians, plus Persian ones)
قانون الايمان با لحقيقة أؤمـن بإله واحد، آب ضابط الكل خـالق السماء والأرض, ما يرى وما لا ي وبرب واحد يسوع المسيح, ابن الله الوحيد, المولود من الآب قـبل كل الدهور, نور من نور, إله حق من إله حق, مولود غـير مخلوق, واحـد مع الآب فى الجوهـر, الذى به كان كل شئ, الذى من أجلنا نحن البشر ومن أجل خلاصنا نزل من السماء, وتجسّد من الروح القـدس ومن مريم العـذراء, وتأنّس, وصُلِب عـنّا عـلى عهد بيلاطس البنطى, وتألّم, وقُـبر, وقام من بين الأموات فى اليوم الثالث كما فى الكتب, وصعد إلى السماوات وجلس عن يمين الآب, وأيضًا يأتى فى مجده ليدين الأحياء والأموات, الذى ليس لملكه إنقضاء, نعم أؤمن بالروح القدس, الرب المحيى, المنبثق من الآب قبل كل الدهور, نسجد له ونمجده مع الآب والابن, الناطق فى الأنبياء, وبكنيسة واحدة, مقدسة, جامعة, رسولية, واعترف بمعمودية واحدة لمغفرة الخطايا وأنتظر قيامة الأموات وحياة الدهر الآتى 
And they've been bastards ever since.
He was able to sell the Dresden story for years. When he started on the Jews. Everything he ever wrote got a second look.
LOL!! The asute ponderings of a wise man, indeed.
He's far too stupid to make a good martyr. Send him to Iraq and see how long he keeps his head. The Muzzies aren't above "doing" those that support them, as long as they are Western Infidels.
Jews aren't naturally more intelligent than anyone else. They just have a culture that values education, learning and scholarship. Not to mention hard work. Sort of like some Asians.
I think you've nailed it!
An answer which any Torah literate Jew would understand as the repurcussions of "the curse" pronounced in Deuteronomy 11 and 30, which they came under, and we know will inevitably be reversed, and already is, in part, in the re-establishment of the Nation of Israel.
It is clear part of this curse is the Jews having to listen to certain "lewd fellows of the baser sort" like David Irving before they to take their place decaying on the ash heap of history with the rest of those who ever hated the Jews.
If you'd like to be on or off this
Christian Supporters of Israel ping list,
please FR mail me ~
There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had
spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. (Joshua 21:45)
Letter To The President In Support Of Israel ~
'Final Solution,' Phase 2 ~
"The West has given more significance to the myth of the genocide of the Jews, even more significant than God, religion, and the prophets...."Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad
The Holocaust Chronicle ~
" ... It's time we recognized the nature of the conflict. It's total war and we are all involved. Nobody on our side is exempted because of age, gender, or handicap. The Islamofacists have stolen childhood from the world."FReeper Retief
"Palestine is the wrong name for their State. It should be called Anarchy."FReeper sgtbono2002
"Then let's wait and see what the Arabs do after they take Gaza. There's nothing like Arab reality to break up a Jewish fantasy."FReeper Noachian
A student told his professor he was going to "Palestine" to "fight for freedom, peace and justice,"Orwellian leftist code words that mean "murder Jews."
The Nature Of Bruce ~
Gee David I got question how come you such ignorant a*** LOL! HMMM answer that question FIRST
What movie studio you founded lately HELLO
It seemed contradictory that they would consider themselves Christian and yet consider ethnic Jews subhuman.
Well, that's one way. The concept of "chr*stian identity" has become very popular among various anti-Semites (such as the Klan). They believe the white race is Israel and that J*sus, rather than being the savior of the human race, is the white race's "kinsman redeemer." Of course they can't explain how "the serpent race" (the Jews) are the ones who speak Hebrew and observe the Torah (which the aryan "Israelites" have abandoned) and preserve the original text exactly as it was dictated to Moses. And why don't the "true Israelites" want to live in 'Eretz Yisra'el? There are all sorts of problems. But no, they're the "Israelites" and the Jews are the spawn of Satan (so they claim).
The ironic thing is, this concept of "aryan Israel" has taken hold among national socialists whose ideological forebears wanted nothing to do with Biblical Israel at all. There are even nutjobs who claim that The Emodiment of All Evil, Adolf Hitler (yimach shemo vezikhro!) was (lehavdil `ad 'elef-'alfei-'alafim havdalot!) the prophet Elijah!!! Can you imagine that monster ever identifying with the holy Prophet of Israel?
But not all anti-Semites are religious. There are those (such as Revilo P. Oliver, Sam Francis, Ivor Benson, and that ilk) who are purely scientific racists and who hate the Jews for introducing the "illusion" of morality into a world that should be governed only by the iron laws of nature. And despite their atheism these people actually consider themselves rightwingers and anti-Communists because they see Communism as just another "Jewish" moral system imposed on an impassable and unmoving nature. I won't give any links, but there's a page devoted to the teachings of the late unlamented Dr. Oliver where you can see this bilge spewed.
But you know something? The aryan chr*stian "true Israelites" and the atheist skull-measurers never have the slightest problems with each other. They support each other just like the atheist Darwinists and the new age earth-worshipping and "indigenous" pagans support each other. All the enemies of Israel are friends among themselves. But then, what can you expect from people who worship "nature red in tooth and claw" and who reject morality as Jewish and Communist?
"Certainly, Jews, more than any other group, have been the target of prejudice and hatred. Why is that? Why should this one group be the subject of so much hostility?"
"they have been entrusted with the very words of God" (Romans 3:2)
It's that simple to me. Through the Jews came Christ, and this brings out what's hidden in every man.
I would tend to think that there are relatively few here who are literarily familiar enough with David Irving to have read any of the books he has written. He tends to be rather flashy at times and weak in drawing in details to the more established view in how things came about, but Mr Irving's archieval reasearch, not to mention personal interviews, tend to turn up aspects not previously known. You people do know the biggest-badass warship of all time, the 'Bismark,' was scuttled and not sunk, right?? Irving reported this almost 40 years ago now and every so often I read of 'new discoveries' that are old news....
So be it.
Even so, I wonder how Micah 5:2 can be reconciled under Palistian rule, personally speaking, I cannot. As a Christian, believers in Jesus as Christ take precedent as 'God is no respector of persons' "and think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham" (Math 3:9).
I dont agree at all. Torture them, slit their throats, gut them, and hang them upside down on a pole. Let others who would spread hatred of Jews see them and be afraid, as it is so proscribed in Deuteronomy.
Perhaps it would be wiser for haters to ask themselves why they hate. Asking the victim to ponder the thoughts of a victimizer is a lot like blaming the woman for being raped.
How very Islamic...
I am a Christian, and we Christians agree and know that the Jews ARE the Chosen People. God said so in the Holy Scriptures. There will be a Remnant of Jews that will come to Christ in the end times. The Jews were the race that God chose to have His Son born into. Hatred of the Jews or antisemitism is a mortal sin and an offense to almighty God. True Christians should love the Jews as brothers and love and support the nation of Israel as well. The Jews have always, until the creation of the nation of Israel, been a hated, oppressed and powerless minority who had to rely on sheer talent, tenaciousness and sheer desperation at times just to survive as a people in whatever host country they've lived in. In Poland and Russia they were hammered relentlessly by laws and edicts prohibiting and banning them from most occupations and their civil rights were violated cruelly in so many ways. For centuries they have been oppressed and denied basic human rights in all the countries they have lived in throughout the diaspora. They are hated for their success and brillance in the face of centuries of oppression. They are hated because the adherance to their religion made them appear very different to the native populaces. Satan has had a field day with antisemitism and the idiots that practise it. The Holocaust was the climax to all of it, and still they survived to found the nation of Israel. This was God spitting in the face of Hitler. No people or race has ever been so relentlessly and cruelly persecuted and oppressed as the Jews. The Holocaust (1933-1945) was, in my opinion, the ultimate nightmare in all of history. Nothing was more horrifying. If you read extensively about the Holocaust, it was almost surrealistic in it's horror and cruelty, but yet the Jews survived it. Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world, was a Jew, and the Jewish people are our long suffering brothers. Damn antisemites and antisemitism.
You and I disagree completely on this point. The First Amendment exists (and is first) for a reason. I am astounded that a supposedly conservative American would toss aside the genius of our founders and 230 years of American culture and jurisprudence in order to solve a problem that doesn't exist. Please reconsider your position on this point. We do not need the thought police in our country.
Why? Are Austrians less human than Americans? Or do you perhaps think that we need (more) thought crime laws here too? Please elaborate on this point of yours.
"Take it up with God. I DO believe He coined that phrase...
What language was it coined in?"
According to some of the religious, when G*d spoke to them it, the message was not specifically verbal, rather it came to them as a sense of knowing, not as words in a specific language.
They describe being aware of both the presence of G*d and that which they were being shown, that they might understand.
I think Jews are successful because more then any other "group" they stress education. I went to a school theat was about %95 Jewish and man did they work hard at their education. Not much on sports but very hard on their studies. Parents pushed it.
"Which brings up another question. Why are so many Jews Registered and loyal Democrats, regularly voting for antisemitic, left wing despisers of Jews?"
The short answer is that they confused the Mosaic call for social justice with socialism.
From personal experience it is the Japaneese that are most hatedin the east. Due to their past behaviors.
Currently though the Chineese are getting quite pushy.
I grew up in North Hollywood Calif. Had next door neighbors named Eisenberg. Both had numbers tattooed and were in concentration camps.
Used to play gin rummy with them and their grandson and talk
No way could I not believe. I saw and read old newspapers they'd saved from before and during and after WWII.
Yes if the U.S. fails to take out Irans nukes the Israel had better get off the pot. I just have no confidence in Olmert the appeaser lawyer.
My point was not to slam Jews, it was to question why they are so hated? They are successful and have taken a terrible piece on earth and made it a garden. They have contributed so muchto society unlike the Arabs and still they are reviled in the mid east and have been for thousands of years. I just don't understand it.
By the way good morning.
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