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Reported on FOX News a little ago. Illigals have killed 45,000 US citizens since 9/11
Fox News | Jan 24, 2007 | Fox Neil Cabuto

Posted on 01/24/2007 3:00:13 PM PST by stockpirate

There were two woman on the show being interviwed and I only caught a piece of it.

But the main part was that since 9/11 over 45,000 US citizens have been killed by illigal aliens in the US.

Does anyone know more about this as I am very interested. They said the numbers came from a US Congressman or Senator.

also one person was with the boarder militia group, so there were three people.


TOPICS: Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: aliens; amnesty; bogus; borders; bushbotsindenial; crimaliens; illegalaliens; illegalimmigration; illegals; lies; quagmire; statistics; wot
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To: TommyDale

I like the discussion showing the number of prior arrests for incarcerated Illegals AS IF the same pattern is not there for citizens in prison. Very few have never been arrested virtually ALL have extensive arrest records starting in their early teens.


151 posted on 01/25/2007 7:56:44 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: justshutupandtakeit

I can tell you this, when accidents are reported here involving fatalities, over half are Hispanic surnames. With the construction industry booming, and the number of illegals growing exponentially, it is easy to see where it is possible.


152 posted on 01/25/2007 7:59:22 AM PST by TommyDale (If we don't put a stop to this global warming, we will all be dead in 10,000 years!)
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To: KoRn

they refer to this as reconquista. Reconquering of Frontier de Norte.


153 posted on 01/25/2007 8:01:23 AM PST by television is just wrong (Our sympathies are misguided with illegal aliens...)
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To: justshutupandtakeit
Twenty five percent is NOT a believable number. And Illegal is not nearly ten times as likely to commit murder. Now I would believe that the ~4% of the population which are Illegal might commit 5-6% of the murders but not 25%.

5-6% would not fit with basic demographics. If nearly 50% of homicides are committed by the lower 25% of the economic scale and illegals comprize a disproportionate size of that segment, there contribution would to the overall homicide rate would be disporportionate to their percentage of the overall population.

The homicide rate in major population areas is over 3x that of the rest of the country. The concentration illegals in major population areas is again highly disproportionate to the remainder of the country. Therefore their contribution to the overall murder rate would again be highly disproportianate to their overall proportion in the general population.

25%? I don't know. I no more verified your 13,000 per year number than I did the base numbers in the study. My only assertion is that the methodology of the study, based on my experience with data and statistics appeared valid. The deviation in the results are likely no greater than the deviation in your 13,000 and 4% figures represent.

154 posted on 01/25/2007 8:30:11 AM PST by CMAC51
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To: justshutupandtakeit
Illegals are about 4% of the population and the claim that they are responsible for over 11% of deaths by car and murder is not credible.

The simple 4% figure distorts the demographics involved. Illegals form a greater proportion of the lower economic levels where a higher proportion of violent deaths occur. They are also a greater proportion in population centers where again higher proportion of violent deaths occur.

155 posted on 01/25/2007 8:42:00 AM PST by CMAC51
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To: CMAC51

I have not argued that there will be strict proportionality and that the figure would be higher than the citizenry for murders but not for automobile accidents due to the lower auto ownership rates for the poor. So that might cancel out to some extent. Nor do I believe that the large urban areas have a higher death rate for auto accidents.


156 posted on 01/25/2007 9:11:08 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: justshutupandtakeit
but not for automobile accidents due to the lower auto ownership rates for the poor

I live in the Houston area. Traffic deaths are common. Two predominate profiles are intoxicated illegal and illegal driving heavy equipment. The illegal driving heavy equipment is a bad one, many fatalities. Strictly anecdotal, but after 10 years here the pattern is very apparent vs. the previous places I have lived.

The higher per capita traffic mortality rate for population centers shows up on multiple sites when googled. I wouldn't take it to court, but have no reason to doubt it on the surface.

157 posted on 01/25/2007 12:20:19 PM PST by CMAC51
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To: CMAC51

I live in Chicago which probably has more Illegals than even Houston and that is not the pattern here. Occasionally you will see an accident with Illegals but they are not that common.

Higher fatality rates are associated with high speeds which generally mean highway driving. Most of the traffic in ciies is not going at high rates of speed. Thus, while I would expect to see more accidents in the urban areas I would not expect to see deaths associated with most of them. While out in the wide open spaces the accidenst are at 70 mph and thus far more dangerous.


158 posted on 01/25/2007 12:30:03 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: justshutupandtakeit
As I said, the information is anecdotal about Houston. I don't intend to present it as data. Most fatal accidents are at excessive speed or intersections on non-highway streets with alchohol or heavy vehicles involved.

I haven't done meaningful research and am not motivated to do so. As I said, a quick google on death rates turned up several sites showing higher traffic mortality rates in population centers. I'm not going to dig deep enough to defend or debunk the sites.

My main intent is that people should not be dismissive of the impact of illegals on violent mortality rates. Someone did go off and do a study. Based on my cursory review of it, it looked well executed. On the other hand, those dismissing the figures are doing so by misrepresenting the information presented or their personal belief or expectations. If people want to dispute the study, they should indicate the flaws within the study or present countervailing data.
159 posted on 01/25/2007 2:50:33 PM PST by CMAC51
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To: edpc

S-l-o-w service at McDonald's is undoubtedly the cause of several 100/year.


160 posted on 01/25/2007 2:53:35 PM PST by Pharmboy ([She turned me into a] Newt! in '08)
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To: CMAC51

Most of the disputes are just over the number not that Illegals do no harm. At least that is my dispute. Lots of people here are ready to believe anything no matter how illogical. One post above put the total costs associated with Illegals at almost a trillion dollars. Since that is 83,000 per Illegal it can be dismissed out of hand. Almost all numbers coming from those believing Illegals are the greatest problem facing the nation can just as easily and legitimately dismissed.


161 posted on 01/25/2007 3:01:15 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: edpc

"If you include murders, accidents, E. coli poisoning, and shoddy landscaping, you're still pushing it....."


Well after all they do all our cooking and wash all our dishes.


162 posted on 01/25/2007 3:03:33 PM PST by hubbubhubbub
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To: stockpirate

I don't know how the 45,000 figure jibes with reality.

But for a selection of the mayhem that illegal immigrants have committed
in the USA
AND/OR are only accussed of committing...
here's a nice reference source.

KEYWORD: CRIMALIENS
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/keyword?k=crimaliens


163 posted on 01/25/2007 3:06:04 PM PST by VOA
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To: stockpirate
But the main part was that since 9/11 over 45,000 US citizens have been killed by illigal aliens in the US.

Help the Democrat party keep us safe. After they stop war, they can stop immigration, which is obviously far more dangerous. (Before or after they get us all free healthcare).

164 posted on 01/25/2007 3:10:34 PM PST by alrea (Hillary/Osama 08)
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To: stockpirate

llegal aliens murder
12 Americans daily
Death toll in 2006 far overshadows total
U.S. soldiers killed in Iraq, Afghanistan
Posted: November 28, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Joseph Farah
© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com

WASHINGTON – While the military "quagmire" in Iraq was said to tip the scales of power in the U.S. midterm elections, most Americans have no idea more of their fellow citizens – men, women and children – were murdered this year by illegal aliens than the combined death toll of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan since those military campaigns began.

Though no federal statistics are kept on murders or any other crimes committed by illegal aliens, a number of groups have produced estimates based on data collected from prisons, news reports and independent research.

Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa. If those numbers are correct, it translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That's 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001.

Total U.S. troop deaths in Iraq as of last week were reported at 2,863. Total U.S. troop deaths in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Uzbekistan during the five years of the Afghan campaign are currently at 289, according to the Department of Defense.

(Story continues below)


165 posted on 01/25/2007 3:16:42 PM PST by Eva
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To: stockpirate

bump


166 posted on 01/25/2007 3:28:29 PM PST by VOA
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To: stockpirate
But the main part was that since 9/11 over 45,000 US citizens have been killed by illigal aliens in the US.

Bump

167 posted on 01/25/2007 3:33:40 PM PST by Centurion2000 (If you're not being shot at, it's not a high stress job.)
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To: justshutupandtakeit
http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/TSFAnn/TSF2004.pdf

Considering your assertion, or more appropriately your conviction that most traffic fatalities occur away from population centers on highways, I encourage you to check out page 144 and 145 of this report by the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration. Roughly 16% of fatalities occurred on Interstates, Freeways or express ways. Over 60% occurred on roadways classified as less than a principal artery.

If you are so far off on this assertion, should we expect your other assertions to be any more on target.

Perhaps you shouldn't dismiss things so quickly out of hand before you check your facts. Just as you dismiss the 83,000 without really examining its validity. If that number represents the cost of an illegal over time and the average illegal is in the country for 10 yrs (numbers are for example only, not actual data), then it would represent only 8,300 per illegal per year. This would be a value not so easily dismissed.

I am afraid you are demonstrating far more bias than those you would indict for the crime.
168 posted on 01/25/2007 5:40:44 PM PST by CMAC51
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To: CMAC51

bump


169 posted on 01/25/2007 9:05:00 PM PST by Eva
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To: justshutupandtakeit; CMAC51
"It is "possible" that almost all deaths are by Illegals but it is not true. Neither is this figure accurate being ginned up by polemicists against Illegal Immigration. Anyone involved in an incident with a Spanish name is probably thrown into the calculation as an Illegal."

"In Chicago the vast majority of murders are gang related. Some are by Illegals but those are a small minority since our homegrown thugs take care of most killings."

How in the hell do you know that?

Where's your link to statistical data to back your wild claims up.

We're just supposed to believe you?

You're constantly accusing everyone else of pulling numbers out of their butts and that's all you ever do.

I've never seen you provide a single link to a source to support any of your ridiculous claims.

Does Chicago even track that data, or are these more of your feelings?

LOL!

170 posted on 01/27/2007 12:29:21 AM PST by 4Freedom (America is no longer the 'Land of Opportunity'. It's the 'Land of Illegal Alien Opportunists'!!!)
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To: 4Freedom

Oh, now you've offended him and he won't play anymore.


171 posted on 01/27/2007 7:12:06 AM PST by CMAC51
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To: COEXERJ145; Dane

Still no answer cupcakes?

I would so like to be able to ask you this question in person.

You would give me an answer then.

But until then I will will spend time with my American friends and you enjoy your time with the illegal alien criminal scum that you call friends.


172 posted on 01/27/2007 6:18:33 PM PST by Eaker (You were given the choice between war & dishonor. You chose dishonor & you will have war. -Churchill)
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To: CMAC51; justshutupandtakeit
"Oh, now you've offended him and he won't play anymore."

It's just the truth as I see it, CMAC51. I've asked this guy for links to substantiate his crazy claims on threads before and he's never provided a single one.

But just count how many times he's accused others of making things up and pulling facts out of their butts on this thread.

This guy's got his arm in his own butt up to his shoulder.

LOL!

173 posted on 01/28/2007 12:50:35 AM PST by 4Freedom (America is no longer the 'Land of Opportunity'. It's the 'Land of Illegal Alien Opportunists'!!!)
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To: CMAC51

My spectulation was that traffic accidents would be more likely fatal if occurring on an expressway/Interstate rather than a local road. That speculation was only that as I said.
There was never any doubt that more accidents occur in the cities but they are generally at a lower rate of speed. It is a truism that more accidents occur close to home.

Rather than "dismiss" anything out of hand I examined what the figure of a trillion per YEAR would mean on a per capita basis and found it to be so unlikely that it dismisses itself. Throwing in your ten year figure is not something that should be in the calculation. Your figure is more believable no matter how you arrived at it however.


174 posted on 01/28/2007 3:49:16 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: 4Freedom

Now you doubt that most murders in Chicago are gang-related?
Be my guest but anyone who has lived here for 40+ years as I have knows that to be true. It is not a recent phenomenon either. This is also true in almost all major cities if not all.


175 posted on 01/28/2007 3:52:10 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: stockpirate

4500 or 45000 is not the issue, if they were not here, 4500, at least, would not be responsible.


176 posted on 01/28/2007 3:58:34 PM PST by dforest (Liberals love crisis, create crisis and then dwell on them.)
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To: omega4179

"its 12 a day or 13k in 3 years.. can't be 45k but its still a scandal worth impeaching over."

911 was more than 3 years ago. Try 5+.


177 posted on 01/28/2007 5:10:06 PM PST by lawdude (2006: The elections we will live to die for!)
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To: indylindy

Yes, but businesses get chaep labor, and lettace is still at a pretty good price! */scarsam off


178 posted on 01/28/2007 5:22:12 PM PST by stockpirate (John Kerry & FBI files ==> http://www.freerepublic.com/~stockpirate/)
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To: justshutupandtakeit
"One post above put the total costs associated with Illegals at almost a trillion dollars."

I missed the part in the quote where you refer to the cost being over 1 trillion per year. Perhaps you would care to point me to the post that correctly quotes someone making that assertion, or would that be to incovenient for your self defense.

Since that is 83,000 per Illegal it can be dismissed out of hand.

It appears you are the one saying you dismissed it out of hand, not I.

It's curious that you would say that illegals are not associated with traffic fatalities in Chicago. NHTSA data shows Hispanics as 5 times more likely than causasians to be involved in a fatal traffic accident. Chicago makes a practice of not recording or releasing the residency information of those involved in fatal accidents. Since 5 times as many Hispanics are involved in fatal accidents and the residency status is not released, what would be the basis for...

"Occasionally you will see an accident with Illegals but they are not that common."

Looks to me like information without basis and pretty much valueless. No I am wrong there. It did prompt me to spend time digging through Federal and state goverment data, insurance records and a few studies. I handn't intended to, but your posts prompted me to invest the time. Quite revealing information. You won't like what you find, but perhaps you should do the same before dismissing anything else.

179 posted on 01/28/2007 8:25:20 PM PST by CMAC51
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To: justshutupandtakeit; CMAC51
Your claim is that more murders in Chicago are being committed by American citizens than illegal aliens.

How would you know that?

Where's your proof?

Where's your link?

Does the Chicago Police Department even track those statistics?

I believe you're guilty of doing the very thing you accuse others of doing, pulling your facts out of your butt.

180 posted on 01/28/2007 9:59:25 PM PST by 4Freedom (America is no longer the 'Land of Opportunity'. It's the 'Land of Illegal Alien Opportunists'!!!)
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To: 4Freedom

I don't do dueling links. That is little less rewarding than having someone post a LONG link which has little to do with the topic under discussion. If one cannot argue a case using their own words maybe they should not be arguing. And posting links to one crackpot or biased source is also of little use.


181 posted on 01/29/2007 9:30:15 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: CMAC51

Post 20 refers to costs of 400 billion and another half trillion which I summarized as "almost a trillion" dollars NOT "over" a trillion as you claim.

I CALCULATED the per capita figure to show it was unlikely you missed it entirely but are willing to swallow it because you WANT it to be true.

"It's curious that you would say that illegals are not associated with traffic fatalities in Chicago." I did not say that Illegals were not "associated" with traffic fatalities. Obviously they are involved in SOME.


182 posted on 01/29/2007 9:37:37 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: 4Freedom

Most murders in Chicago are of Blacks by Blacks (non-Hispanic) some may be by illegal Nigerians.

There are easily obtained racial statistics which verify this statement.


183 posted on 01/29/2007 9:39:35 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: justshutupandtakeit
Okay, now I understand. You just can't read or do math.

Welfare benefit programs used strictly by the illegal immigration population were costing "$400 billion a year -...

Based on the figure of 30 million illegals they use that would be $13,333 of expense per year per capita.

...He said that figure did not include another half-trillion dollars lost each year "due to payroll and income tax fraud from the underground economy created by having 30 million illegal aliens in the United States."

Here the figure would be $16,666 per capita in lost revenue.

Estimates of the number of illegal aliens in the U.S. vary considerably, but the Center for Immigration Studies (CIS) said the numbers cited by Gilchrist "sound about right."

The figures for expense, missed opportunity cost and the population base are clearly in the text. You present a figure of $83,000 per year expense and your number is what I was supposed to swallow? I did not swallow their number, I pointed out that context mattered, which it clearly did because you tried to feed me a BS number without providing any alternative context. Exactly what I was pointing out

"Occasionally you will see an accident with Illegals but they are not that common."

I did not say that Illegals were not "associated" with traffic fatalities. Obviously they are involved in SOME.

If Hispanic males are involved in fatal accidents at 5 times the rate of caucasion males (NHTSA data indicates male Hispanics is the single highest demographic group). Fatal accidents involving Hispanic males must be the most common. Chicago does not release the residency status of those involved in the accidents, how do you know illegals are not involved?

184 posted on 01/29/2007 11:39:35 AM PST by CMAC51
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To: HoustonCurmudgeon

Agree. A number that large would be a major headline in most cities. They beef about the 3,000 in Iraq so 45,000 would be an atrocity.


185 posted on 01/29/2007 11:40:50 AM PST by Paved Paradise
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To: CMAC51

My math does not use BS figures such as 30 million Illegals when there are about 12-13 million. But exaggeration is a critical part of your schtick. Someone above cited Vincente Fox as saying 10% of his nation was north of the border. THAT figure is consistent with Non-Whackjob estimates of 12 million. Naturally YOU would reject that.

The "lost revenue" figure is particularly hilarious. At the lowest tax rate this would mean the earnings of Illegals is almost $60,000 PER CAPITA. Only an absolute fool would believe that when it is HIGHER than the Median Household Income much less per capita. But facts and logic mean nothing to you.

Illegals in Chicago do not own automobiles at anywhere near the rate of citizens hence are not as likely to be involved in accidents. Your 5x figure is likely something you did not read correctly or interpret correctly like most of the things I have said that you incorrectly understood.

Residency status of an Illegal is whatever city he is living in. Or is that another misunderstanding of yours that a resident is a citizen?


186 posted on 01/29/2007 12:19:00 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: justshutupandtakeit
My math does not use BS figures such as 30 million Illegals when there are about 12-13 million.

Your math in fact used 10 million. Your fault is that you did not specify it. You stated the figure was wrong without providing any basis.

But exaggeration is a critical part of your schtick.

No, it is part of yours. I have not accepted or rejected any numbers without providing an indication of the source. When I make anecdotal observations I have said so up front. I stated clearly that I had not verified any of the base numbers of the report that was being quoted. I had only examined the methodology used for processing those numbers and found it valid. I have my own estimate of the number of illegals in the country but it is not relevant to any point I put forth so I reserved that opinion.

The "lost revenue" figure is particularly hilarious. At the lowest tax rate this would mean the earnings of Illegals is almost $60,000 PER CAPITA. Only an absolute fool would believe that when it is HIGHER than the Median Household Income much less per capita. But facts and logic mean nothing to you.

Again you have it backwards. Facts and logic are all that matter to me. Deducing a per capita on a base population other than that presented in the data set is neither fact nor logic. If you disagree with the 30 million base population express the factual basis of your disagreement then present a conclusion based on the new fact set. The fact set presented was $500 billion lost revenue with a base population of 30 million or $16,666 per capita. Either dispute the 30 million, the $16,666, or both. Your $60,000 number is an invalid conclusion because you are changing the fact set without acknowledging it. Again, I have neither accepted nor rejected the base numbers, only your invalid manipulation of them.

Illegals in Chicago do not own automobiles at anywhere near the rate of citizens hence are not as likely to be involved in accidents. Your 5x figure is likely something you did not read correctly or interpret correctly like most of the things I have said that you incorrectly understood.

The source of your ownership claims would be? As for the 5x figure, it is common to reports from the NHTSA, State Farm Insurance and All State Insurance. You can access NHSTSA; the insurance reports are from pay sites so I can't pass them on. There also dozens of editorial works available on the web which reference source data. You can easily Google them just as I did. I have accepted the 5x figure as it is represented in multiple reputable sources. Please note it is fatal accidents, not all accidents.

Residency status of an Illegal is whatever city he is living in. Or is that another misunderstanding of yours that a resident is a citizen?

Clearly for the purpose of this thread residency status refers to either legal resident or illegal resident. Chicago public employees will not release this information, at least through 2005. It may have changed since then, but no report I looked at had information past 2005. Conversely, the city of Houston does release that information so it is available in news reports. I have not seen any compiled data, therefore I labeled my information as anecdotal.

I do have my own opinion on the number of illegals in the country, their impact on the economy and the socioeconomic structure of the country. They really didn't matter to the discussion so I reserved them. I expressed facts where facts were available and I labeled anecdotal information as such. My original post was on what I had observed in reviewing the study in question. I expressed no acceptance or rejection of it's conclusions. I in fact qualified my comments to that extent. I believe the data set and methodology applied are critical in assessing the validity of the presented result. I find fault with those who criticize or disparage an expressed result without providing a clear argument for an alternate data set, methodology or previously unaddressed facts. As it turns out, it looks like you are their poster child.

187 posted on 01/29/2007 3:47:44 PM PST by CMAC51
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To: CMAC51

I used 12,000,000 for my calculations.

In order to show the absurdity of the $16,666 figure I ACCEPTED both bloated figures. Then, as I explained, the per capita figure was calculated FROM them. Then, as I explained, that figure derived from YOUR figures was used to calculate the per capita income figure consistent with the "revenue loss". So the absurd $60,000 came from YOUR numbers and the lowest tax rate of 28%. It is only a beginning point and can be changed by changing the assumptions under which it was derived.

Automobile ownership is a function of income and poor people own fewer of them. This really is not rocket science.

"While no one – in or out of government – tracks traffic accidents caused by illegal aliens, the statistical and anecdotal evidence suggests many of last year's 42,636 road deaths involved illegal aliens." WND 11/12/06 article goes on to say:
"In California, another study showed that those who have never held a valid license are about five times more likely to be involved in a fatal road accident than licensed drivers."

This sounds like the number you are using and appears to justify my skeptical response.

"I find fault with those who criticize or disparage an expressed result without providing a clear argument for an alternate data set, methodology or previously unaddressed facts." Anyone can see I demolished the figures you appear to give credence to. And explained why they were bogus.


188 posted on 01/30/2007 9:29:32 AM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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To: justshutupandtakeit
I used 12,000,000 for my calculations.

I know that. I intentionally demonstrated how an authoritative statement can be totally wrong lacking context.

So the absurd $60,000 came from YOUR numbers and the lowest tax rate of 28%.

The lowest federal tax rate is 10%. The reference was not just to federal tax. You must also compute state and local individual taxes and the impact on business and franchise taxes, license fees and other forms of registration. There are economic formulas available to do that. They are complex and your simplistic approach does not even approximate the true picture.

Automobile ownership is a function of income and poor people own fewer of them. This really is not rocket science.

It's not rocket science, but wouldn't actual facts be better. The latest census for instance shows just under 75% of households living below the poverty level own automobiles. Over 30% own two or more.

This sounds like the number you are using and appears to justify my skeptical response.

Nope didn't see that one. Probably because of the reference to "illegal" where I focused on Hispanic.

Here a just of few of the easily available sources of information. It takes only minutes to find them and they cooberate each other very well. Some are of particular interest because Chicago or Illinios were involved in the studies. I didn't include any of the pay sites I have access to.

http://azbilingualed.org/AABE%20Site/AABE%20NEWS%202003/death_rate_in_accidents_is_high.htm

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/homeland.php?id=494798

http://www-nrd.nhtsa.dot.gov/pdf/nrd-30/NCSA/Rpts/2006/809956.pdf

http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/ped_bike/docs/sa06ba030/section_13.htm

http://www.hispanicprwire.com/news.php?l=in&id=4019&cha=3

http://www.aemj.org/cgi/content/full/10/11/1249

http://www.usroads.com/journals/p/rilj/9712/ri971204.htm

http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/homeland.php?id=496631

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=17717

http://repositories.cdlib.org/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1024&context=its/tsc

http://www.icjia.state.il.us/public/pdf/Bulletins/duifinal.pdf

You've demolished nothing. Try reading a little. You might learn something.

189 posted on 01/30/2007 1:05:19 PM PST by CMAC51
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To: CMAC51

The lowest federal tax rate is 10%. [Using 10% makes the figure even MORE absurd.]
The reference was not just to federal tax. [I explicitly said this was an initial calculation which could be modified and made more precise.] You must also compute state and local individual taxes [Only in a few states are these high and significant]and the impact on business and franchise taxes [seems to have no bearing at all], license fees and other forms of registration [also of no bearing]. [All of those included get you nowhere close to 16,666 per person.] There are economic formulas available to do that. They are complex and your simplistic approach does not even approximate the true picture. [Any honest person would admit that I never claimed any such thing as "the true picture" and explicitly mentioned refining the estimate through changing the assumptions. But you prefer to pretend I intended something explicitly rejected.]

The latest census for instance shows just under 75% of households living below the poverty level own automobiles. Over 30% own two or more. [That is not true in the cities where automobile ownership is much more costly.]





190 posted on 01/30/2007 2:00:49 PM PST by justshutupandtakeit (If you believe ANYTHING in the Treason Media you are a fool.)
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