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Elderly Man Dies In Gunfire Exchange With Undercover Officers
News4Jax.com ^ | January 28th, 2007 | Staff

Posted on 01/30/2007 1:12:56 PM PST by FreedomCalls

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- An elderly man is dead and two Jacksonville Sheriff's Office detectives are on administrative leave after an undercover narcotics investigation ended in gunfire late Saturday.

According to the JSO, detectives Donald Maynard and James Narcisse had been working undercover for about three hours in the 2300 block of Westmont Street when 80-year-old Isaac Singletary approached them with a gun just before 6 p.m.

The officers said they ordered the man to put down the gun. However, Singletary did not drop his weapon and gunshots were exchanged.

Singletary was shot several times. Paramedics rushed him to Shands-Jacksonville Medical Center, where he died.

Less than 24 hours after the fatal police shooting left his uncle dead, Gary Evans told Channel 4 he's mad.

"Eighty-years-old, and they had to shoot him twice or more in order to subdue him. I'm very upset about it," Evans said.

He said his uncle was territorial and mad about the drugs on his street, and would often take his gun and try to scare the drug dealers away.

On Saturday, things went terribly wrong.

"My uncle asked the officer, which he didn't know at the time he was a police officer, to leave his property and he didn't," Evans said.

Neighbors told Channel 4 that Singletary was very protective of his property.

"You don't expect somebody to come pointing a gun at you, and once they do that, the officers will tell them to drop the gun," JSO Chief Dwain Senterfitt said. "We're still investigating what statements were made, but obviously, at that point, the officers' lives were in danger."

Police said they are still trying to figure out if the undercover officers had time to tell Singletary they were undercover officers. They said the detectives had to hid behind a tree to avoid being shot by Singletary.

According to police, the officers had been in the neighborhood since about 2:45 p.m., and had made five drug-related arrests.

"In the course of our undercover activity and making several arrests in this neighborhood, a man we now know to be a resident of that area, Mr. Isaac Singletary, was shot by officers," said Director of Investigations and Homeland Security Micheal Edwards.

Saturday's shooting was the third JSO-involved shooting in three weeks. Unlike last week's case at the Sable Palm Apartments, there is no dispute whether Singletary had a gun.

"There was a confrontation between them and an exchange of gunfire," Edwards said.

However, the question of who fired the first shot remains unanswered.

"He shot at my uncle first. He was the first one to shoot, and my uncle returned fire," Evans said.

"As you know, our investigation into any shooting must be thorough and methodical. At this time, there's a limited amount of information we can share," Edwards said.

As the details of the shooting are being hashed out, scared neighbors and sad family members remember Singletary.

"I looked in his eyes I saw his pain. I felt the pain for him. He never bothered anybody. He's never done anything to anybody. He didn't want anybody in his yard," said neighbor Antionette Douglas.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Front Page News; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: addictedleroy; donutwatch; drugwar; guns; police; shooting; wodlist
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To: gvrlady; misterrob
AND IF IT WAS YOUR GRANDPA? Would you be saying that to yourself? NO NO I DON'T THINK SO!!!!!!

Settle down, unbunch your panties, and lay off the exclamation points.

I don't know if Misterrob would "be saying that" to himself, but I'm willing to bet he, like most FReepers, doesn't welcome other people assuming he'd say stupid crap.
51 posted on 01/30/2007 3:03:08 PM PST by Xenalyte (Anything is possible when you don't understand how anything happens.)
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To: JTHomes
Sad, but bad idea to point your gun at someone unless they are threatening you.

People dealing drugs in your yard is a threat to you.

52 posted on 01/30/2007 3:04:05 PM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: rogue yam
Does a Florida homeowner have a legal right to shoot anyone in his yard who fails to leave when ordered to?

Florida follows the "reasonable man" standard, so the answer is "yes" in the correct circumstances.

53 posted on 01/30/2007 3:05:19 PM PST by papertyger
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To: AmericanHunter

Not good enough. If you have nothing to hide why not just surrender?


54 posted on 01/30/2007 3:07:04 PM PST by Unknowing (Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country.)
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To: rogue yam
You do not know why this man died, thus the entire sentence is prejudice masquerading as judgement.

He didn't die of natural causes did he? He died from bullets shot from the undercover drug squad. The police admit that much. You can't put your head in the sand and deny facts in the hope that they will go away.

55 posted on 01/30/2007 3:07:36 PM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: Xenalyte
Settle down, unbunch your panties, and lay off the exclamation points.

Sage advice < /snicker >

56 posted on 01/30/2007 3:08:02 PM PST by papertyger
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To: FreedomCalls
You can't put your head in the sand and deny facts in the hope that they will go away.

We're talking about the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office here...you'd be amazed at what they get away with by putting their heads in the sand and denying facts.

57 posted on 01/30/2007 3:10:47 PM PST by papertyger
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To: Continental Soldier
If the police tell you to put down your gun, put it down!

Sure.. if someone in plain clothes asserts that they are police you better do exactly what they say.

You would be an easy mark.

58 posted on 01/30/2007 3:17:34 PM PST by Smogger (It's the WOT Stupid)
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To: papertyger
Florida follows the "reasonable man" standard, so the answer is "yes" in the correct circumstances.

I asked whether the homeowner had the right to shoot anyone and your reply is that he would only have the right "in the correct circumstances". The article does not provide information sufficient to show whether the circumstances at hand would establish the homeowner's right to shoot in this case. Therefore you were wrong when you stated previously that the officers are shown by the known facts to be culpable.

59 posted on 01/30/2007 3:29:04 PM PST by rogue yam
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To: misterrob
It is against the law to sell drugs, purchase drugs or possess drugs.

It is also against the law to trespass. If they were on his property they need to face manslaughter charges. One thing is for sure they should be finished as cops.

60 posted on 01/30/2007 3:31:55 PM PST by org.whodat (Never let the facts get in the way of a good assumption.)
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To: FreedomCalls
He didn't die of natural causes did he? He died from bullets shot from the undercover drug squad. The police admit that much. You can't put your head in the sand and deny facts in the hope that they will go away.

You are completely irrational. I knew you were a "libertarian".

61 posted on 01/30/2007 3:32:39 PM PST by rogue yam
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To: rogue yam

you're confusing posters...that wasn't me.


62 posted on 01/30/2007 3:33:10 PM PST by papertyger
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To: School of Rational Thought
A related question, is would or should someone believe them, especially considering so many cop impersonators.

I have had detectives come to my door to gather information. I would ask for ID and every time I would be handed a business card. Some became hostile when I would ask for a police ID.

63 posted on 01/30/2007 3:33:18 PM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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To: misterrob
It is against the law to sell drugs, purchase drugs or possess drugs.

The dead gentleman in question was doing none of these.

The cops were doing their jobs in arresting people

They were "doing their job" impersonating drug dealers.

Grandpa drew down on the wrong guys.

What a disgustingly callous statement. They quite easily could have identified themselves, since clearly they weren't dealing with a "target".

This story makes me completely, totally ill.

64 posted on 01/30/2007 3:38:30 PM PST by AnnaZ (I keep 2 magnums in my desk.One's a gun and I keep it loaded.Other's a bottle and it keeps me loaded)
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To: org.whodat
It is also against the law to trespass. If they were on his property they need to face manslaughter charges. One thing is for sure they should be finished as cops.

Just because the cops were (presumably) on this guy's property, does that give the resident the right to shoot them in all circumstances? What if the resident came out, yelled at them and then started blazing away? It seems to me pretty clear that there aren't enough facts here to draw conclusions but that doesn't stop some people, obviously.

65 posted on 01/30/2007 3:39:46 PM PST by rogue yam
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To: rogue yam
You are completely irrational.

"Irrational"? What is "irrational" about saying that he was shot by the drug squad? Are you seriously saying that he died of natural causes or that he isn't actually dead?


66 posted on 01/30/2007 3:39:54 PM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: papertyger
you're confusing posters...that wasn't me.

You're right.

67 posted on 01/30/2007 3:41:24 PM PST by rogue yam
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To: rogue yam
"What if the resident came out, yelled at them and then started blazing away?"

"What if."

What if the resident came out, yelled at them and then the undercover police started blazing away?

"What if's" don't work very well in arguing either side of this.

68 posted on 01/30/2007 3:43:05 PM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: FreedomCalls
What is "irrational" about saying that he was shot by the drug squad?

The issue here is whether the police were justified in shooting the guy. Stop playing grubby dishonest games.

69 posted on 01/30/2007 3:44:54 PM PST by rogue yam
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To: FreedomCalls
"What if's" don't work very well in arguing either side of this.

It's called a hypothetical question. Sane intelligent people use this device frequently in logical discussions. You are completely unmoored here.

70 posted on 01/30/2007 3:47:42 PM PST by rogue yam
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To: rogue yam

What if the resident came out, yelled at them and then the undercover police started blazing away?


71 posted on 01/30/2007 3:52:57 PM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: kinoxi
Of course. LEO's are supermen who never make mistakes. Sure.

While this is not true, of course, what IS true is that there are never any consequences for those mistakes. The cops lie (or maybe don't even have to lie), the internal "investigation" clears them, and they're free to make more mistakes with guns.

72 posted on 01/30/2007 3:57:54 PM PST by j_tull (Massachusetts, the Gay State. Once the leader of the American Revolution, now leading its demise.)
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To: rogue yam

Trust me on this one RY...the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office does NOT deserve benefit of the doubt.


73 posted on 01/30/2007 3:59:54 PM PST by papertyger
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To: rogue yam
The issue here is whether the police were justified in shooting the guy.

"Another grandpa dead because of an undercover drug squad." The issue is excessive police force against innocent citizens which results in their death.

74 posted on 01/30/2007 4:00:43 PM PST by FreedomCalls (It's the "Statue of Liberty," not the "Statue of Security.")
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To: FreedomCalls
What if the resident came out, yelled at them and then the undercover police started blazing away?

It would depend on the rest of the facts. The resident was apparently brandishing a gun. It is possible to do this in a way that is illegal and threatening and would give the cops the legal right to shoot first in self-defense. Possible, I say. I have no idea whether that is what happened in this particular case, but neither do any of the others on this thread who are condemning the officers.

75 posted on 01/30/2007 4:05:46 PM PST by rogue yam
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To: j_tull
While this is not true, of course, what IS true is that there are never any consequences for those mistakes.

Once in a while we get lucky.

The Sherrif's son was allowed to leave without consequences a couple of years ago after he got caught beating a confession out of an innocent kid one third his size.

76 posted on 01/30/2007 4:06:05 PM PST by papertyger
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To: Xenalyte; FreedomCalls
"... I'm noodling out what figure of speech "which" is here."

Maybe it's something new, a parenthetical conjunction.

77 posted on 01/30/2007 4:09:05 PM PST by NicknamedBob (Sign says, "No dogs allowed -- except seeing-eye dogs" Why don't they put that sign down lower?)
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To: papertyger
Trust me on this one RY...the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office does NOT deserve benefit of the doubt.

I understand that some law enforcement agencies are dysfunctional and that some cops are criminals. I'm not intending to give these or any other cops the benefit of the doubt, but rather I am reserving judgement altogether and encouraging others to do the same. Often when there is a police shooting the initial articles provide few facts and feature unsupported accusations by the deceased's next-of-kin like this article does. Often when such articles are posted on FR the "libertarians" show up on the thread and make cynical, irrational accusations against the cops and all who refuse to join in prematurely condemning the cops. I think this kind of "libertarian" activism is bad for FR, bad for conservatism and bad for America. Therefore I consider it a public service to try to throw some cold water on irrational, dishonest cop-hating.

78 posted on 01/30/2007 4:17:32 PM PST by rogue yam
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To: piytar

"Good question. I don't think that undercover officers are above the law. If they didn't have a warrant, would they be trespassers? If the elderly gentleman thought they were a threat, was he within his rights to use deadly force (point a gun at them) to make them leave? (Think Castle Doctrine in Fla.) If they were criminally trespassing, did they even have a right to self defense? (I thought that one generally didn't have a right to self defense if one was committing a crime and that crime lead to violence).

Finally, in the end, could these cops be looking at manslaughter charges? If they didn't have a right to self defense, that sure looks like a possibility.

I think that at the least, a humongous civil suit might be filed against the city.

Any legal eagles got any answers to these questions?"

Well, I am no legal eagle but these two undercovers are likely the only witnesses to how they approached the house and were asked to leave before the shooting started. I assume they will stick together, such charges as manslaughter carry heavy prison sentences and of course, let's not forget that these men probably saw how the Border Patrol agents were treated...


79 posted on 01/30/2007 4:19:00 PM PST by quantfive
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To: FreedomCalls
"My uncle asked the officer, which he didn't know at the time he was a police officer, to leave his property and he didn't," Evans said.

Undercover Officer = Secret Police maybe the cop should have been carrying a badge and LEFT the man's property when ordered to.

80 posted on 01/30/2007 4:19:58 PM PST by Centurion2000 (If you're not being shot at, it's not a high stress job.)
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To: FreedomCalls
The issue is excessive police force against innocent citizens which results in their death.

You do not have sufficient information to reasonably conclude that the force was excessive or that the citizen was innocent.

81 posted on 01/30/2007 4:20:35 PM PST by rogue yam
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To: AmericanHunter

"Hey, if incidents like these prevent just one American adult from smoking a joint, it's worth it.'

The day an American can plant a seed in the ground and smoke whatever comes up, the terrorists have won.


82 posted on 01/30/2007 4:25:43 PM PST by gcruse (http://garycruse.blogspot.com/)
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To: R. Scott

"I have had detectives come to my door to gather information. I would ask for ID and every time I would be handed a business card. Some became hostile when I would ask for a police ID."


No doubt. Anyone can print up cards at home.


83 posted on 01/30/2007 4:38:16 PM PST by School of Rational Thought (Conservatism - For Thinking People)
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To: rogue yam
You do not have sufficient information to reasonably conclude that the force was excessive or that the citizen was innocent.

Certainly a conclusion can not be drawn from the evidence as we have it at this time, but it is simply disingenuous to claim the narrative as we have it doesn't weigh heavily against the police.

We're talking an octogenarian with a prior reputation (which the police seem to be oblivious to) and undercover police officers on a productive assignment.

84 posted on 01/30/2007 5:06:18 PM PST by papertyger
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To: rogue yam
You do not have sufficient information to reasonably conclude that the force was excessive or that the citizen was innocent.

P.S. as the police are agents of the state, this man deserves the presumption of innocence and it is not your place to strip him of it.

85 posted on 01/30/2007 5:08:53 PM PST by papertyger
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To: FreedomCalls
Wonder if his dog survived?

They seem to like killing dogs too.....

Seems kinda sad when you get killed by the "good guys"< /sarcasm>.

Well, they did get administrative leave at least....(kill an innocent, get a vacation!)

86 posted on 01/30/2007 5:12:34 PM PST by glasseye
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To: rogue yam
There is not enough information.

If cops would wear uniforms and drive marked vehicles when doing cop work, there would be no need for more information, and grandpa would probably still be alive.

87 posted on 01/30/2007 5:20:37 PM PST by elkfersupper
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To: papertyger

JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- Just because the state attorney and the Jacksonville's sheriff work together to incarcerate criminals doesn’t mean the two always see eye to eye.

Previously private disagreements between state attorney Harry Shorstein and Sheriff John Rutherford have become more public since recent shootings involving undercover narcotics detectives.

Shorstein is openly critical of Jacksonville Sheriff's Office's undercover drug operations such as the one that led to the fatal shooting of an 80-year-old man, who family members said thought he was confronting drug dealers who were actually officers, on Saturday.

exerpt from news4jax.com...it's the lead story


88 posted on 01/30/2007 5:26:07 PM PST by papertyger
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To: School of Rational Thought

"Whether the cops properly identified themselves is a big question."

Whether I or anyone would or should believe them is an even better question. Anyone can yell "Police!", and flash a "badge" that looks real in the dark wearing 'hood gear.


89 posted on 01/30/2007 6:52:16 PM PST by rahbert
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To: rogue yam
"You do not have sufficient information to reasonably conclude that the force was excessive or that the citizen was innocent."

Excessive? The elderly man is dead. Innocent? Of what defending himself from rouge 'undercover narcotics' cops who most likely looked like junkies about to rob him.

90 posted on 01/30/2007 6:59:14 PM PST by M. Espinola (Freedom is Never Free)
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To: rogue yam
Just because the cops were (presumably) on this guy's property,

I do believe that if you do a little reading you will find that it is stated he told them to leave two or more times. And unless the tree one cop was hiding behind was in the street, it is a safe bet it was on the man's property.

91 posted on 01/30/2007 6:59:53 PM PST by org.whodat (Never let the facts get in the way of a good assumption.)
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To: Unknowing
Not good enough. If you have nothing to hide why not just surrender?

One evening last week, about sixty miles from where I live, a lady was driving home. A cop car blue lighted her, she pulled over, then she was raped. Now the cops say it wasn't really a cop, just someone acting like a cop.

So ladies if you haven't done anything wrong , just follow unknowns advice and surrender. "Sac. Off"

92 posted on 01/30/2007 7:28:19 PM PST by org.whodat (Never let the facts get in the way of a good assumption.)
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To: VeniVidiVici; dbwz
Friend of mine stumble upon something similar (though in more of a "Excuse me. What are you doing?" manner). Officer in the driver's seat flipped down his visor to show a badge and stated "Please get back inside, sir."

I guess the officers in this case should have done that. But then again Mr. Singletary was armed, so that complicates the manner.

Then again, as someone stated earlier, there are a lot of impersonators out there now.
Tough call.

93 posted on 01/30/2007 7:44:50 PM PST by NYCynic
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To: misterrob
...but if he's out there waving a gun then he would have had to assume some risk for his behaviour.

Apparently he did take responsibility for his behavior. It seems you are suggesting that a citizen has no right to bear arms on his own property. Where in this situation did the cops take responsibility for their behavior?

94 posted on 01/30/2007 9:08:37 PM PST by TigersEye (Carrying a gun is a social obligation.)
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To: rogue yam
Just because the cops were (presumably) on this guy's property, does that give the resident the right to shoot them in all circumstances?

No of course not. But in these circumstances he would have been perfectly justified.

What if the resident came out, yelled at them and then started blazing away?

What if a giant grasshopper from Mars came and started killing everyone in sight?
(As long as we're makin' sh!t up might as well make it interesting.)

95 posted on 01/30/2007 9:27:26 PM PST by TigersEye (Carrying a gun is a social obligation.)
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To: papertyger
Certainly a conclusion can not be drawn from the evidence as we have it at this time, but it is simply disingenuous to claim the narrative as we have it doesn't weigh heavily against the police.

Dude! You seem to be genuinely trying to figure this out rationally, but you are doing a crap job. Let me try to help you:

The most important point is that, as you say, "a conclusion can not be drawn from the evidence as we have it at this time". This is the most simple, obvious and important point and most people on this thread can't seem to grasp it. You have, so congratulations to you for this. But then you immediately go off the rails by talking about the "evidence as we have it". We have almost no evidence except the statements of the next-of-kin which in this context (in the immediate, emotional aftermath of their relative's death; in absence of supporting evidence; not given under oath; not based on first-hand knowledge; etc., etc.) are worth exactly nothing. This is a pattern that repeats itself nationwide and wherever our troops are in action. Something occurs involving American authorities. Immediately the usual suspects make the usual charges. An investigation occurs and in most cases the American authorities are found to have acted mostly or entirely reasonably. There are exceptions, to be sure, but this is what usually happens. And what else happens, in almost every case, is that those who hate the American authorities are shown to have been lying their faces off even in those cases when the authorities acted wrongly. There is no reason to think this case will necessarily turn out differently.

96 posted on 01/30/2007 11:48:57 PM PST by rogue yam
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To: Centurion2000
Undercover Officer = Secret Police maybe the cop should have been carrying a badge and LEFT the man's property when ordered to.

Do you really think that the police and FBI should be forbidden in all cases from conducting undercover domestic operations? Please tell me that you are not so insane!

97 posted on 01/30/2007 11:54:20 PM PST by rogue yam
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To: FreedomCalls

Gun fire was exchanged? Wouldn't both parties need to fire their weapons, for that to be the proper terminology?


98 posted on 01/30/2007 11:59:34 PM PST by F.J. Mitchell (Fear of offending those rabidly determined to destroy you, is good manners turned malignant.)
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To: papertyger
P.S. as the police are agents of the state, this man deserves the presumption of innocence and it is not your place to strip him of it.

This comment is worthless garbage. You are trying to be reasonable but you are also being lazy and sloppy and just plain dumb. The deceased is not on trial, which is where the presumption of innocence comes into play. Your writing is poor, but you seem to be saying that the officers (who in fact are under investigation) are not entitled to the presumption of innocence because they are "agents of the state". This is retarded as a matter of law (of course they enjoy the same legal presumption as private citizens) but also is wildly impractical. Imagine trying to recruit officers while telling them that their every action would be reviewed under a presumption of guilt. Good luck filling those assignments!

99 posted on 01/31/2007 12:03:13 AM PST by rogue yam
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To: papertyger

poppycock. was this guy in fear for his life? were these officers advancing on his house with the intent on completing a violent crime? i am not all too familiar with this doctrine you speak of but i assume it is not carte blanche to shoot someone standing on your lawn.


100 posted on 01/31/2007 12:07:05 AM PST by thefactor
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