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Never-seen battle in Indian skies (Mig-35 vs Super Hornet)
The Telegraph,India ^ | Monday, February 12, 2007 | ANIL BUDUR LULLA

Posted on 02/11/2007 11:06:41 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki

Never-seen battle in sky

ANIL BUDUR LULLA

The F/A-18 F Super Hornet and the MiG-35 Bangalore, Feb. 11: A brilliant blue-and-red streak in the sky, the MiG-35 climbs 90 degrees towards the sun, changes its mind and does a vertical U-turn, screaming 90 degrees towards earth. It’s still in one piece.

Moments later, the grey F/A-18 F Super Hornet shoots sunwards like a bullet after a short take-off, levels at 8,000 feet, floats, turns left, shows its dual engines just above the gaping audience, goes into attack mode and swivels — all in one smooth motion.

“It’s like nothing we’ve seen before,” says a defence ministry official who will sit in judgement with a clutch of pilots when the Indian Air Force decides on the aircraft it will settle for in its order of 126 multi-role combat fighters.

The twin-engined MiG-35 and Super Hornet are clearly in a different league. And on the evidence of the demonstrations in Yalahanka, erstwhile Cold War rivals Russia and the US are pulling out all stops.

Boeing’s Michael E. Rietz, the India programme manager for F/A-18F business, says the Hornet boasts of the latest radar. The Electronically Scanned Array (Aesa) radar is also used by the US Navy.

“This is the right aircraft for establishing air dominance. It does not require any platform to support it and carries missiles for its own protection,” he says.

More important, Boeing will let the planes be made under licence in India, a first for the F/A-18 programme.

Asked how the aircraft compares to the MiG-35, Rietz says: “Survivability is the key. While it is a lethal machine, we take pride in the Super Hornets, which avoid being seen, hit and killed.”

The biggest advantage is that the Hornet’s wings can be folded, enabling it to operate from aircraft carriers.

The Russians, on the other hand, are playing on a strong wicket. They never fail to emphasise their 44-year association with India. IAF pilots are familiar with the nuts and bolts of Russian systems.

The MiG-35 also has the Aesa radar specifically made for the Indian programme.

Referred to as the generation 4 ++ aircraft, MiG-35 versions on show here were arguably the most eye-catching.

The Russians rarely fail to advertise the MiG-35’s thrust vector control that allows the aircraft to undertake the breathtaking “cobra” manoeuvre. The aircraft stalls in mid-flight, nose at 90 degrees like a cobra ready to strike, and slides backwards. In a real dogfight, such a move can turn the hunted into the hunter.

Back to the Indian official who will be among those who sit in judgement. “I will not look at aerobatics alone,” he says. “I’ll look at what’s inside…. I will look at the price and I will look at history.”

“It’s probably comparable to buying onions and potatoes I tell my wife who is technologically challenged,” he adds. “But now we have more vendors to choose from.”


TOPICS:
KEYWORDS: boeing; iaf; india; mig; navair

1 posted on 02/11/2007 11:06:44 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Isn't the rap on the Super Hornet that it is somewhat underpowered?


2 posted on 02/11/2007 11:09:00 PM PST by Plutarch
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To: sukhoi-30mki
I always enjoy watching airshow video of Russian aircraft. The crashes are spectacular!
3 posted on 02/11/2007 11:10:42 PM PST by ozzymandus
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To: sukhoi-30mki
“It’s probably comparable to buying onions and potatoes I tell my wife who is technologically challenged,” he adds.

Ah, Spudnik revisited!

4 posted on 02/11/2007 11:10:55 PM PST by sourcery (Government Warning: The Attorney General has determined that Federal Regulation may be hazardous to)
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To: ozzymandus

You have to admit that they have prefected their ejection seats, or it might just be they have a lot of experience.


5 posted on 02/11/2007 11:26:20 PM PST by U S Army EOD (Support your local EOD Detachment)
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To: magslinger

F/A-18 ping


6 posted on 02/11/2007 11:32:43 PM PST by Vroomfondel
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To: sukhoi-30mki

I don't think planes dogfight anymore?


7 posted on 02/11/2007 11:42:57 PM PST by AZRepublican ("The degree in which a measure is necessary can never be a test of the legal right to adopt it.")
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To: AZRepublican
I don't think planes dogfight anymore?

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1778903/posts=25#25

8 posted on 02/11/2007 11:57:30 PM PST by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: AZRepublican
I don't think planes dogfight anymore?

Oops! http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1778903/posts?page=25#25

9 posted on 02/11/2007 11:59:00 PM PST by CarrotAndStick (The articles posted by me needn't necessarily reflect my opinion.)
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To: sukhoi-30mki; blam; section9; Nick Danger; TigerLikesRooster
"More important, Boeing will let the planes be made under licence in India, a first for the F/A-18 programme."

That's a very, very aggressive sales pitch. Boeing may win after all.

Makes sense, really. UAV's, the F-22, and sub-orbital fighters are the future. Might as well sell the hell out of the F/A-18 while it still has value (e.g. over China/Pakistan).

Losing this sale will really piss off Putin, though.

However, it's hard to imagine that India would turn down having the plans, specs, and tech support for the F/A-18 and all of its components. Enormous technology transfer.

That's one heckofa sales pitch.

10 posted on 02/12/2007 12:07:18 AM PST by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

"The Russians rarely fail to advertise the MiG-35’s thrust vector control that allows the aircraft to undertake the breathtaking “cobra” manoeuvre. The aircraft stalls in mid-flight, nose at 90 degrees like a cobra ready to strike, and slides backwards. In a real dogfight, such a move can turn the hunted into the hunter."


Just hit the brakes and they'll fly right on by.


11 posted on 02/12/2007 1:36:47 AM PST by swmobuffalo (The only good terrorist is a dead terrorist.)
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To: Plutarch

Yes & rather short legs for an aircraft of it's size.Though it's engines can be upgunned for greater thrust should the USN desire so.


12 posted on 02/12/2007 3:03:17 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: Southack

I really don't think Boeing would be allowed offer the level of tech transfer you talk about for the simple fact that the aircraft will be built for the USN till after 2010 & operated much longer.Besides India & the US are still sending feelers to each other with ties at a delicate stage.

The Russians may allow greater tech transfer for the simple reason that MIG Corp is in the doldrums & the Mig-35 will not enter service with the Russian military anyway.


13 posted on 02/12/2007 3:06:38 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki
Still standing by the 50:50 split? BTW, while I knew that the Russians were working on an AESA, I didn't know that there was one working well enough for it to be offered in the MiG-35 (I knew it was to be part of the 35, but as a future add-on. From the article i get the feel that the 35 already has an AESA). What gives?

Finally, how long do you think this deal will be dragged on (I believe Indian military acquisition programs have a tendency to get ...well ....protracted). Will this be finished by 2010 or is that too soon?

14 posted on 02/12/2007 3:34:30 AM PST by spetznaz (Nuclear-tipped Ballistic Missiles: The Ultimate Phallic Symbol)
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To: spetznaz

Not a clue,though the RFPs will probably (have to) be issued by this year & selection within an year or so given the way the air force seems to be pushing for it with a rather unprecedented publicity drive about the airforce losing air superiority /dwindling squadron levels etc.

About a 50:50 split,no one knows though political compulsions may necessitate that though the recent proposals to buy more used Mirage-2000s & new SU-30s seem at odds with a 2 vendor possibility.


15 posted on 02/12/2007 4:09:03 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki
FYI: "Dogfights" is on History channel all morning here.
16 posted on 02/12/2007 5:09:48 AM PST by BallyBill (Serial Hit-N-Run poster)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
"...Boeing will let the planes be made under license in India..."

Mistake #1. All of our defensive technology should be built right here in the good o'l USA. You and I know that some muslim will be working for the defense firm in India and will get a hold of the technology and supply it to Iran. We'll learn in a few years that Iran acquired secret code for the F18 and has developed a missile program that defeats the F18 defenses.
17 posted on 02/12/2007 5:16:07 AM PST by Arcy
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To: Arcy

Well if the US sticks to that line,they'd be shut out of the arms market in no time!!Anyway,license manufacturing is actually a monitored process where the company building it usually doesn't have source codes & other classified technology.

About license manufacturing & Muslims,well the only country building Abrams tanks under license is,...Egypt. & Turkey has also built the F-16 & has infact been successful in selling upgrade packages to F-16 users like Jordan & Pakistan.


18 posted on 02/12/2007 5:24:30 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: Southack
Losing this sale will really piss off Putin, though.

So there is no downside.....
19 posted on 02/12/2007 5:28:59 AM PST by Kozak (Anti Shahada: " There is no God named Allah, and Muhammed is his False Prophet")
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To: Kozak; Southack

Crucial word is here "Losing".I won't discount the Mig-35's chances for one simple reason.If India buys this aircraft,it will (atleast temporarily) ground a joint Sino-Pak fighter aircraft project,the FC-1 which uses the RD-33 .If India buys 80 or so Mig-35s,Putin has no excuse to sell those engines.Pakistan or China will find it difficult to source & integrate a new engine for the type be it the US F-404 or F-414 or Euro-types.


20 posted on 02/12/2007 5:35:00 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki
In a real dogfight, such a move can turn the hunted into the hunter.

Try it in a dogfight against a competent adversary and your life is forfeit, IMO.
21 posted on 02/12/2007 6:11:12 AM PST by Pox (If it's a Coward you are searching for, you need look no further than the Democrats.)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Russia has the best unproven aircraft in the world.


22 posted on 02/12/2007 6:13:50 AM PST by AppyPappy (If you aren't part of the solution, there is good money to be made prolonging the problem.)
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To: sukhoi-30mki
The Russians may allow greater tech transfer for the simple reason that MIG Corp is in the doldrums & the Mig-35 will not enter service with the Russian military anyway.

Wouldn't that be a problem for the IAF? Buying an 'orphan', if you know what I mean?

23 posted on 02/12/2007 6:20:20 AM PST by Tallguy
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To: Tallguy

Not exactly given that a good chunk of Russian weaponry built today is not meant for the Russian military & has been so for a quiet a while & countries do get greater level of technology transfer to avoid contigency situations.Besides the Mig-29 & it's upgrades still serve in the Russian military so spare parts still can be sourced.


24 posted on 02/12/2007 6:28:12 AM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: U S Army EOD
As I understand it a Russian scientist is considered the top guy in world wide in ejection seats/devices and we use his designs modified as well.

There are a number of things that must be considered if we are to honestly evaluate aircraft.

Cost to Produce
Cost to Train Pilots and Support Personell
Cost to Operate
Cost to Maintain


If we or any nation just build ever more expensive craft we will be in a "Death Spiral" wherein the total number of craft will ever plummet. When the total numbers of craft drop while costs of production and maintenance ever increase a point will be reached where smaller cheaper and less sophisticated craft will have an insurmountable advantage. Air to Air Missiles can be put on many platforms and their performance is quite good. Given sufficient numbers of WWII P38s or P51s coupled with modern electronics and air to air missiles. They would win the fight for air superiority. They really exists a point where the old prop planes could be maintained easier in the kind of numbers which would swamp the most modern craft...


We often fly our best craft many hundreds if not thousands of miles to engage the enemy. Small Prop planes can be prepositioned with the frontline troops and simply fly up to meet their faster farther away based enemy when they arrive. W
25 posted on 02/12/2007 6:31:37 AM PST by WLR ("fugit impius nemine persequente iustus autem quasi leo confidens absque terrore erit")
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To: WLR

There was a proposal to develop a modern P51 Mustang back in the late-'70s. Don't think it really got too far.

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_14.html


26 posted on 02/12/2007 6:42:08 AM PST by Tallguy
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To: sukhoi-30mki
The Russians rarely fail to advertise the MiG-35’s thrust vector control that allows the aircraft to undertake the breathtaking “cobra” manoeuvre. The aircraft stalls in mid-flight, nose at 90 degrees like a cobra ready to strike, and slides backwards. In a real dogfight, such a move can turn the hunted into the hunter.

All the video I've seen show the MiG-35 "barely" recovering from the Cobra while the F-22 executes the manuever smoothly. I haven't seen video of the Hornet attempting the Cobra.

27 posted on 02/12/2007 6:47:07 AM PST by fso301
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Mig 35

28 posted on 02/12/2007 6:55:21 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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To: Tallguy

I remember this and saw some pictures of some of the aircraft. It looked like a cross between a P51 and the F8F Bearcat. My understanding was that it could acutally outrun an A 10.


29 posted on 02/12/2007 8:07:34 AM PST by U S Army EOD (Support your local EOD Detachment)
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To: WLR

Remember what happened to Syria with the Israeli Air Force.

Also, at one time, McNamara and his wiz kids determined it was cheaper to train pilots than to armor helicoptors.


30 posted on 02/12/2007 8:10:38 AM PST by U S Army EOD (Support your local EOD Detachment)
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To: sukhoi-30mki

two points for you to consider...

1. Los Alamos National Laboratory
2. Wen Ho Lee

This took place on our own soil!


31 posted on 02/12/2007 9:26:03 AM PST by Arcy
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To: sukhoi-30mki
"I really don't think Boeing would be allowed offer the level of tech transfer you talk about..."

That's the crux. If full F/A-18 tech transfer is allowed, Boeing will win this contract. If not, then Boeing probably won't win...or won't win more than half.

32 posted on 02/12/2007 10:51:36 AM PST by Southack (Media Bias means that Castro won't be punished for Cuban war crimes against Black Angolans in Africa)
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To: U S Army EOD

Practice, practice, practice.


33 posted on 02/12/2007 11:29:08 AM PST by ozzymandus
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To: sukhoi-30mki

"In a real dogfight, such a move can turn the hunted into the hunter."

Sould read:

"In a real dogfight, such a move can turn the hunted into steel confetti."


34 posted on 02/12/2007 1:44:49 PM PST by TexanToTheCore (If it ain't Rugby or Bullriding, it's for girls.........................................)
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To: Vroomfondel; SC Swamp Fox
Thanks for the ping, Vroomfondel. I can't monitor FR 24/7 and really appreciate help in catching threads I might otherwise miss.

SONOBUOY PING!

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

Post or FReepmail me if you wish to be enlisted in or discharged from the Navair Pinglist.
This is a low volume pinglist.

35 posted on 02/12/2007 1:58:42 PM PST by magslinger (Ask Dad. He'll know. And on the off chance he doesn't, he'll make up something good.)
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To: U S Army EOD; Tallguy
PA-48 Enforcer:


36 posted on 02/12/2007 2:08:36 PM PST by Joe 6-pack (Voted Free Republic's Most Eligible Bachelor: 2006. Love them Diebold machines.)
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To: Joe 6-pack

bump


37 posted on 02/12/2007 2:27:38 PM PST by Centurion2000 (If you're not being shot at, it's not a high stress job.)
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To: Joe 6-pack

bump for later read


38 posted on 02/12/2007 2:43:05 PM PST by Bender2 (As my old Sportscasting prof said in 1967, "Ain't we all pink on the inside any way?")
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To: sukhoi-30mki

Not to scale (of course)

39 posted on 02/12/2007 2:53:49 PM PST by Jet Jaguar
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To: R. Scott
Re:

Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting

I like... Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting the Dallas Cowboy version better!
40 posted on 02/12/2007 2:55:32 PM PST by Bender2 (Welcome to Valley Ranch, Wade!)
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To: Plutarch; sukhoi-30mki
I thought it was the Hornet that was under-powered (especially with a full bomb load), and Super Hornet was supposed to fix that problem.

Or is it because GE had better lobbyists than P&W?

41 posted on 02/12/2007 3:01:33 PM PST by Calvin Locke
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To: Calvin Locke

Well the SuperHornet has more powerful engines but is about 25% larger than the Hornet (30 tonnes vs 24 tonnes at full load).


42 posted on 02/12/2007 8:08:32 PM PST by sukhoi-30mki
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To: sukhoi-30mki

lol I just imagine this Mig-35 doing all these pretty acrobatic moves and then this F-22 it never saw launches a missle from above it and effortlessly swats it out of the sky.


43 posted on 02/12/2007 8:19:08 PM PST by miliantnutcase ("If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it." -ichabod1)
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To: Bender2

The way the Dallas Cowboys have been playing lately, the need it!


44 posted on 02/13/2007 2:45:24 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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To: R. Scott; Millee; Allegra; pax_et_bonum; Jersey Republican Biker Chick; carlr; PaulaB; ...
Re: The way the Dallas Cowboys have been playing lately,... Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting the [sic] need it!

Why do I believe... Old 'R.' is a Deadskin or Iggles fan?

Must be... the smell...

¡Mis vaqueros... no necesitan ninguna Migs que apestan!
45 posted on 02/13/2007 8:12:10 AM PST by Bender2 (Welcome to Valley Ranch, Wade!)
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To: Bender2

Hail to the Redskins!
Hail to the tribe.


46 posted on 02/13/2007 9:31:58 AM PST by R. Scott (Humanity i love you because when you're hard up you pawn your Intelligence to buy a drink)
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To: miliantnutcase

And what does the F-22 have to do with the MiG-35 (and the MCRA competition in particular)? The F-22 would probably just as effectively swat the F-18 out of the sky.


47 posted on 05/09/2008 11:58:40 PM PDT by Constantine XI Palaeologus ("Vicisti, Galilaee")
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To: Constantine XI Palaeologus

Yeah in fact it has in red flag I heard.


48 posted on 05/10/2008 10:18:51 PM PDT by miliantnutcase
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