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A Message to Rudy Giuliani and His Supporters (VANITY)
Self | February 23, 2007 | Alberta's Child

Posted on 02/23/2007 7:45:02 AM PST by Alberta's Child

There have been quite a few threads posted on the subject of Rudy Giuliani’s prospective candidacy for the Republican nomination in 2008, and the endless back-and-forth on these threads has reached a fever pitch at times. I’ve refrained from posting extensively on these threads in recent days because they’ve started to get someone repetitive and tiresome, but also because I’ve been compiling a lot of material to include in a thread of my own. I post my comments here without any “cross-dressing” photos or “Rudy trading card” images (though I do appreciate them, folks!), and without any personal animosity toward anyone, though many of you may know me as one who has strongly opposed his candidacy for quite some time.

I don’t post vanities here very often (and usually only when I’m looking for advice!), so I think my comments here are worth a read.

The “pro-Rudy” arguments typically fall along these lines:

1. Rudy Giuliani is really a conservative. Freepers who use this argument will often cite examples -- sometimes accurate, sometimes exaggerated, but occasionally even downright false -- of cases in which his mayoral administration in New York City pursued a particular course of action that most of us would agree is conservative from a political/philosophical standpoint. His well-documented track record as mayor of NYC offers plenty of such examples, some of which would include his administration’s success in fighting crime (for all his baggage associated with this, as described below), improving the business climate in the city, etc. The biggest flaw in this approach is that his track record is only “conservative” if you focus entirely on these specific issues and ignore the rest of them. I believe this specific view of Giuliani’s background has been sufficiently debunked by substantial, accurate references to his public statements and actual record in public office.

2. Rudy Giuliani is not a 100% conservative, and it’s unrealistic for anyone to think a 100% conservative could be elected president in 2008. The underlying point here is valid in general, but the argument is usually accompanied by accusations that opponents of Rudy Giuliani are "100-Percenters" who insist on a candidate’s fealty to the entire conservative agenda. This would only be a legitimate argument if applied to a candidate who is conservative on, say, 70% of the issues -- but it is awfully silly when used to support a candidate who is conservative on about 20% of the issues -- especially the "defining issues" for so many conservatives. Calling someone who refuses to support a liberal candidate a "100-Precenters" is comical -- and certainly isn’t going to get a candidate any more support among conservative voters.

3. Rudy Giuliani is not a 100% conservative, but he’ll be relentless in the "war on terror" (whatever the heck that means) and therefore he’s the best GOP candidate in 2008. This is basically a corollary to Point #2, in which a Giuliani supporter who knows damn well that he’s conservative on only 20% of the issues will try to transform him into a hard-core conservative by pretending that one issue is somehow weighted disproportionately to the others and therefore this 20% is magically transformed to 80%. That doesn’t fly with me, folks. Basing your support of a candidate on your own assertion of "the most important issue" is silly, especially when you consider that most voters may not necessarily agree with (A) your presumption of the most important issue, or (B) your view of which candidate is in the best position to address this issue.

4. Rudy Giuliani may only be 20% conservative, but that’s better than Hillary/Obama/Stalin/Pol Pot/etc. At least this argument is based on an honest assessment of Mr. Giuliani’s political philosophy, but this is no way to win elections. Yes, a "20% conservative" is better than a "10% conservative," but then pneumonia is a terrible affliction except in comparison to tuberculosis, too. Supporting an unabashed liberal candidate is basically a complete abdication of our principles on the altar of "pragmatism," and while this is one thing when we’re talking about the minutiae of tax policy, entitlement reform, etc., it is entirely different when we are dealing with political principles that serve as the underlying foundation of our political views.


Reason #1: The Pro-Life Issue

Rudy Giuliani’s background and public statements on this issue have been well-documented here on FreeRepublic in recent months. It’s bad enough that legitimate conservative opposition to him on this issue is dismissed so readily by lumping it together with “social issues” (as if the protection of human life is nothing more than a social construct and not at the root of any functioning culture that intends to survive over a long period of time), but what is particularly preposterous is that Giuliani’s views on this issue represent a radical, left-wing extremist position that even many pro-abortion Democrats find completely unacceptable (Joe Biden, Patrick Leahy, and Tom Daschle were three of many Democrats in the U.S. Senate to vote in favor of the Federal late-term abortion ban in 2003). Some people right here on FreeRepublic -- for some reason that baffles the hell out of me -- have even go so far as to suggest that his obfuscation on this issue makes him something of a “sort of pro-life” candidate. His track record particularly with regard to the issue of late-term abortion illustrates how utterly absurd this is.

Keep in mind that the Republican Party has not had a pro-abortion presidential candidate since Gerald Ford ran and lost in 1976 -- which means no pro-abortion GOP candidate has ever won a presidential election. In fact, much of the party’s success at the voting booth over the last 30 years was attributable to its ability to capitalize on pro-life Democrats who had become utterly repulsed by their own party’s stand on this issue. The Republican Party ought to think long and hard about turning its back on the pro-life movement right now.

Reason #2: Illegal Immigration

This issue has been a hot topic of discussion over the last 12-18 months in the mainstream media as well as right here on FreeRepublic, and any candidate who ignores it does so at his own peril. Unfortunately for Giuliani, it is impossible for him to reconcile his track record with anything other than the most permissive open-borders policy imaginable. While mayor of New York City he was an unabashed supporter of illegal immigration, and even went so far as to maintain a “sanctuary city” policy regarding illegal immigrants in direct violation of those provisions in the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 that specifically outlawed this type of crap. His actions with regard to that Federal law were particularly disgraceful in light of the fact that he himself had been a Federal prosecutor at one time, and with this one issue he has effectively exposed his "law & order" reputation -- which people might otherwise consider a strong asset -- as a complete fraud.

It also made him terribly weak on other issues -- especially in the aftermath of 9/11. If the mayor of New York City could take it upon himself to blatantly ignore key provisions of this Federal law, would it be acceptable for a mayor or governor to knowingly and egregiously violate terms of the Patriot Act for purely political reasons? Would it be acceptable for the mayor of Dearborn, Michigan to harbor militants from Hamas and Hezbollah in his city? Would it be acceptable for mayors of other cities to ignore the various Federal laws that Rudy Giuliani himself called for incessantly when he was the mayor of New York City?

Reason #3: Gun Control

That last statement is a perfect lead-in to my third point. I thought the pro-life movement would be the most difficult hurdle for a Giuliani campaign to overcome, but the backlash among gun owners here on FreeRepublic to his recent appearance on Hannity & Colmes was pretty shocking. Watching Giuliani twist himself into knots while engaging in that pathetic display of political gymnastics even made me embarrassed for him. As with the pro-life issue, this is one in which his background and well-documented track record cannot possibly be rationalized from a conservative standpoint.

And for all the silly nonsense I’ve heard about how “tough” Rudy Giuliani would be against terrorism, the reality is that he has an extensive track record of opposing the most effective means of protection Americans have at their disposal against the kind of “terrorism” they are most likely to encounter in their lives -- e.g., a couple of homosexual Muslims driving around the D.C. suburbs shooting people at random, some loser Muslim from Bosnia shooting people at random in a Salt Lake City shopping mall, an Iranian-born jack@ss driving his car onto a crowded sidewalk in North Carolina, etc.

And in the one specific case before 9/11 where Rudy Giuliani had to deal with a terrorist attack as mayor of New York City -- the case of the Palestinian malcontent shooting people on the observation deck of the Empire State Building in 1997 -- Giuliani was complicit in the media cover-up of the incident (in which the perpetrator’s political motivations were brushed aside, he was portrayed as a mentally unstable loner, and the gun he used became the primary culprit). His public statements in the aftermath of that attack contained no mention of terrorism at all -- and in fact he went so far as to use the attack to support his public anti-gun campaign. His statements in the days and weeks after the incident have been posted here a number of times, and ought to be a shocking, disgraceful warning sign even for his strongest supporters here.

“Tough on terrorism,” my @ss.

Reason #4: If You Can Make it There, You’re Disqualified

In one sense, Giuliani’s approach to law enforcement, gun control, etc. was perfectly acceptable when he was the mayor of New York City. But it was for all the wrong reasons when it comes to presidential politics. In some ways his no-holds-barred approach to law enforcement (selective as it was, as I have pointed out above in Reason #2) and blatant antagonism toward the Bill of Rights would appeal to some folks the same way they would find the streets of Tokyo or Singapore safe and clean, or the same way they might be quite comfortable with Alberto Fujimori’s strong-arm tactics against the Shining Path militants in Peru. But Tokyo is not an American city, and Peru is not the United States . . . and nor, quite frankly, is New York City. People who walk around New York City can take some comfort in the notion that there are 40,000 police officers in that jurisdiction, and that few of their fellow pedestrians are permitted to carry guns. The city is just a place to do business, and for all intents and purposes these people aren’t even Americans anyway (Rudy Giuliani himself formally acknowledged this when he climbed his pedestal as an unabashed champion of illegal immigration) -- so who really cares? New York City might as well be an international protectorate, and the political climate there is such that anyone who can win an election in that city has no business leading this country. Conservatives ought to be no more willing to trust this man to uphold basic principles of constitutional law than they would trust Michael Bloomberg.

It’s no coincidence that there hasn’t been a New Yorker on a successful national ticket since a nearly-deceased FDR won for the last time in 1944 -- a period that now exceeds 60 years even though New York has been one of the three largest states in the U.S. in terms of electoral votes for that entire time. Most of the issues that occupy the minds of voters in New York are completely alien to ordinary Americans -- which is why the Big Apple has been at the forefront among big cities in almost every recent story involving the intrusion of a big, nanny-state government into the personal lives of its residents . . . from smoking bans, to laws against trans-fats, to the latest half-baked idea to hit the airwaves: the prohibition against the used of cell phones by pedestrians.

None of this should come as any surprise to us, since New York City has long been detached from reality when it comes to American culture and politics. The American Revolution was fought throughout most of the Thirteen Colonies, but was won largely the South -- New York City having remained in British hands throughout most of the conflict. Mass immigration from Ireland and Wales made it a “foreign” city even as far back as 160 years ago, and the Eastern European immigration of the early 20th Century introduced an element -- radical secularism and (later) communism -- that has only grown stronger over time. Almost every rabidly anti-American ideology at work in this country can trace its roots to New York’s academic and cultural institutions.

Today, much of Rudy Giuliani’s media support is coming from big-city, cosmopolitan “neo-conservatives” who have a long history of supporting interventionist foreign policy (I would have to devote an entire thread to this one issue), but have never been much for supporting traditional American values and often give some pretty clear indications that they have never even read the U.S. Constitution (the New York Post has a long-held editorial view in favor of gun control, and have the words “Second Amendment” or the phrase “right to keep and bear arms” ever been printed in the Weekly Standard?

These people have an agenda that is not mine, and any lapdog in the neo-conservative media -- and that includes Rupert Murdoch’s mouthpieces at Fox News, the New York Post, etc. -- who goes out on a limb to support such a radical left-wing candidate (that means you, Sean Hannity and Deroy Murdock) has basically lost all of his/her credibility as a conservative commentator.

. . .

What this all comes down to is that each and every one of us is either a Republican or a conservative. Because the Republican Party platform has been quite conservative (and downright hard-core right-wing, in comparison to the Democratic platform) in recent decades, we’ve managed to delude ourselves into believing that ‘Republican” and “conservative” are always synonymous. Rudy Giuliani’s prospective candidacy for the GOP nomination in 2008 should put this tenuous relationship between party affiliation and political philosophy in the proper light. We are either Republicans first, or we are conservatives first -- there is no middle road here.

Regarding one other item related to Rudy Giuliani’s campaign that pops up on these threads repeatedly (I’ve steadfastly tried to avoid mentioning it, but it cannot be overlooked) . . .

Anyone who has the time to do some research on Rudy Giuliani might want to sit down and do an extensive search through old newspaper articles, internet articles, etc. -- and try to find any such article where Mr. Giuliani is doing something that anyone would consider “manly” in any normal sense -- and by this I mean engaging in physical activity, playing a sport, or doing just about anything that most normal people would associate with manliness. I’ve looked long and hard for this, and I simply can’t find one. I mean, even something staged as a photo-op for PR purposes -- like Ronald Reagan riding a horse or chopping wood on his California ranch, George W. Bush clearing brush on his ranch or driving around Crawford in that big white Ford F-350 Super Duty truck -- is nowhere to be found.

If the “cross-dressing” photos of Rudy Giuliani aren’t necessarily bothersome in and of themselves, they raise some serious warning flags in light of the points I’ve mentioned above. I suspect this is what Giuliani’s own campaign staff had in mind when they referred to the “weirdness factor” as a potential stumbling block in an election campaign. And it’s very important to note that this warning was documented all the way back in 1993, not 2007 -- which means it dates all the way back to his second mayoral race in New York City. Anyone who comes across as “weird” in New York City would be a bizarre freak according to the standards of at least 95% of the people in this country.

Call me paranoid, and call me judgmental, but something about this whole thing just ain’t right. Run down the list of all those things that ought to be setting off warning bells in the minds of normal, decent people . . . the cross-dressing . . . the public statements extolling the work of Planned Parenthood and eugenicist Margaret Sanger . . . the enthusiastic support from NARAL . . . the hosting of those Gay Pride and Stonewall Veterans Association events . . . those bizarre marriages.

Perhaps Freud had it right when he postulated that “a fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity.” (General Introduction to Psychoanalysis, 1952)

The last thing this country needs right now is an effete, dysfunctional weirdo from New York City serving as its chief executive.

And lest anyone think I’m an unreasonable man, I’d like everyone to take a look at the article posted below. I wrote it in the turbulent aftermath of the 2000 election, and posted it here on FreeRepublic when the election results were finally certified in mid-December of that that year. (The link below is a re-post of that article from 2004).

The Triumph of Little America

You can be sure that the passionate (but also extremely objective) conservative who penned those words in December of 2000 will never support Rudy Giuliani in 2008. I’ve traveled across this country too many times -- and know too much about what this country is really all about -- for me to support a big-government, liberal globalist from New York City in a presidential race, regardless of his party affiliation.

And anyone here who works for the Republican Party in any capacity -- and anyone regularly browses through various threads here on FreeRepublic on behalf of a GOP candidate or a GOP media outlet -- should heed this message . . .


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Culture/Society; Politics/Elections; Your Opinion/Questions
KEYWORDS: 2008election; aliens; choosinghillary; duncanhunter; giuliani; gungrabber; koolaidersaremad; lostertarian; notvoting4rudyever; oompaloompa; paleos4hillary; paleos4obama; republicanparty; rino; ronpaul08; rudy; rudylegacy; spamo; tomtancredo; whino; yawn
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To: Alberta's Child

An excellent post which sums up the reasons why I, and others who think like me will never be talked, bribed, cajoled, or threatened into voting for Rudy. Now his supporters may make a calculation that there simply aren't enough conservatives who care about the issues you cite to make a difference in an election. Perhaps they are right. In my estimation, if Rudy is nominated because there's a split in the conservative constituency among several candidates, Rudy will lose the general election by historic proportions...and rightfully so.

361 posted on 02/23/2007 12:21:09 PM PST by Old_Mil (
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To: merry10

"I'm a Rudy Supporter. Not sure how I got pinged."

So, what did you think of info in this thread? Make you want a stiff drink?

362 posted on 02/23/2007 12:21:35 PM PST by wolfcreek (Please Lord, May I be, one who sees what's in front of me.)
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To: Corin Stormhands
Well, some of us read the threads for the articles.

I think some people read them just for the softcore tranny pron. Look how popular they are.
363 posted on 02/23/2007 12:22:33 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: Gop1040

You need to see the other reply after this one to you. I am not a Newt supporter.

I disagree with the idea that one must be in the race already, or two full years before the election.

364 posted on 02/23/2007 12:26:15 PM PST by TommyDale (What will Rudy do in the War on Terror? Implement gun control on insurgents and Al Qaeda?)
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To: Alberta's Child
Call me paranoid, and call me judgmental, but something about this whole thing just ain’t right.

IMO, the globo-corporate mediot purpose of running Rudy Giuliani is to assure that Hillary gets elected. If he wins the nomination, many disheartened conservatives stay home and she wins. If a conservative is nominated, Rudy's campaign will have fomented the RINOs to turn to a McCain third party run or the equivalent. If we want a prayer of having a conservative in the White House, we need to end this charade EARLY.

IMO, that means promoting the only unambiguous conservative with cross party appeal in the race: Duncan Hunter. His stands on trade and illegal immigration are likely to enlist a great many cross-over votes.

365 posted on 02/23/2007 12:26:19 PM PST by Carry_Okie (Duncan Hunter for President)
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To: George W. Bush
I think some people read them just for the softcore tranny pron. Look how popular they are.

Well yes, the Anti-Rudy Oompa Loompas* do seem to be fascinated by them.

*AROL: Anti-Rudy Oompa Loompas - necessary to the story, but they sure are annoying...

JoinRudy2008 * Virginia is for Rudy * The Ward View

366 posted on 02/23/2007 12:29:03 PM PST by Corin Stormhands (If you don't support their mission, you don't support the troops.)
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To: Wormwood
And how could we forget the recent Evolution purges.

Those purges drained half of the blood from this forum.

367 posted on 02/23/2007 12:30:52 PM PST by NathanR (Après moi, le deluge.)
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Comment #368 Removed by Moderator

To: NathanR
Those purges drained half of the blood from this forum.

Don't worry. We'll evolve more.


369 posted on 02/23/2007 12:32:14 PM PST by EternalVigilance (“Let us raise a standard to which the wise and honest can repair; the rest is in the hands of God.”)
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To: Ultra Sonic 007; Alberta's Child

Good post. It's way past time to put this country back on track, which means NO LIBERALS of any sort.

370 posted on 02/23/2007 12:33:23 PM PST by SeaBiscuit (God Bless America..Duncan Hunter 2008.)
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To: Spiff
Jim Robinson himself had them restored and gave that post a green light.

If Rudy (or any other Rino) gets the nomination, FreeRepublic will be his biggest supporter. I saw the transformation Robinson went through when Bush became the chosen one. I have no reason to believe it will be any different this time. Everyone should get it out of their systems now.

371 posted on 02/23/2007 12:37:23 PM PST by Glenn (Annoy a BushBot...Think for yourself.)
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To: CindyDawg
"If this is an indication of what is going on with all conservatives, the GPO is in big trouble IMO"

Fortunately, if you have been keeping up with the latest goings-on, the Dims seem to have a few problems of their own. Rush, like him or not, is prophesying their eminent demise. Personally, I think they're like roaches.......just when you think they're all dead, then another one shows up.
372 posted on 02/23/2007 12:41:27 PM PST by wolfcreek (Please Lord, May I be, one who sees what's in front of me.)
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To: TommyDale
"I disagree with the idea that one must be in the race already, or two full years before the election"

Say what? You don't have "two full years" (21 months to be exact). The first (NH) primary is less than one year away. Scheduled candidates' debates start in a few months. If you wait for your pristine candidate (Newt's not good enough) to reveal him/herself, it'll be too late.

Without you proposing and backing an alternative to Rudy soon, sounds like you've already ceded the primary to him. Good, now we can on to the general election.
373 posted on 02/23/2007 12:44:23 PM PST by Gop1040
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To: Lakeshark
There was a Rudy supporter that posted his accomplishments, and what he has done. I'd rather look at that information, than this.

The point is that you should look at all the information not just his accomplishments. Most everyone knows all of Rudy's good points. That's the problem. I was ready to crown him King of America after 9/11, but like most people I had no idea of what his views on ALL the issues were. I just saw the (R) after his name and thought he was a conservative on most issues, but now we see he isn't and people need to know that.

You might be tired of seeing these views expressed in many different threads, but new people log onto FR every day and this might be the first and only thread they see that shows them a more complete view of Guiliani. If you disagree with anything said then you should post and give your opinion, but there needs to be pro and anti views expressed on all the candidates so we know the pros and cons on all of them.

374 posted on 02/23/2007 12:52:07 PM PST by Elyse (I refuse to feed the crocodile.)
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To: joylyn
"As for immigration, the typical illegal immigrant in NYC didn't come across the Mexican border."

We're not talking about NY anymore....We're talking about a philosophy that will effect the entire country. I'm from Texas and believe me, We are more visibly Hispanic than ever.
375 posted on 02/23/2007 12:53:47 PM PST by wolfcreek (Please Lord, May I be, one who sees what's in front of me.)
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To: Alberta's Child

376 posted on 02/23/2007 12:54:59 PM PST by Silly (
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To: Glenn; Jim Robinson
If Rudy (or any other Rino) gets the nomination, FreeRepublic will be his biggest supporter. I saw the transformation Robinson went through when Bush became the chosen one. I have no reason to believe it will be any different this time.

I'm not sure. I notice that JimRob already has posted about ten times as many tough anti-Rudy posts as he posted about Bush in the entire nomination process. And JimRob actually had picked a horse in that race so his stake could be said to have been higher against Bush. JimRob doesn't have a candidate yet this time.

JimRob is a constitutionalist. That's what FR was established to be. That was the yardstick by which the pre-Bush FR measured everything, not just JimRob but pretty much everyone. You should have seen some of those old threads, like reading the fine points of constitutional law, especially when Xlinton issued an executive order.

During the Bush era with a congressional majority, it just became less popular to take on our own party, especially since they weren't gungrabbers or pro-abortion, the red-meat issues in the Xlinton era along with Monicagate, UN deployments, etc. Did the GOP majority spend too much? Sure. NCLB? Flaky. But not enough for armed insurrection or doing the Dims any favors by fracturing the party either.

Times have changed, our GOP majority gone and Bush lameducked. And Rudy Giuliani is the embodiment of the northeast liberal establishment. Rudy is the anti-Reagan Republican. And that is how I see JimRob's opposition to him. JimRob has returned to his steady compass of constitutionalism. I try not to dis the Big Tent too much but it really is true that political purity is easier when you're in the minority. Beyond that, a substantial defeat like we suffered in '06 should make anyone return to their party's bedrock principles.

[just in case his grep isn't working, I pinged JimRob]
377 posted on 02/23/2007 12:55:41 PM PST by George W. Bush
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To: CindyDawg
if anyone is around San Diego, evidently, he is having breakfast fund raiser tomorrow. It's a little too far for pancakes for me, though:')


378 posted on 02/23/2007 12:56:24 PM PST by b9 ("America is great because America is good." ~ Duncan Hunter)
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To: Alberta's Child

Like most Anti-Rudyites out there, there's the diatribe, then silence.

If you don't like Rudy, then who do you like that has a ghost of a chance of winning?

379 posted on 02/23/2007 12:56:27 PM PST by RinaseaofDs (Ignorance should be painful)
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To: doodlelady

380 posted on 02/23/2007 12:58:52 PM PST by CindyDawg
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