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Pastor's paddle leads to assault charge
KATU 2 - Portland, OR ^ | Mar 1, 2007 at 8:27 AM PST | Anita Kissee and KATU Web Staff

Posted on 03/02/2007 8:00:12 AM PST by Sopater

ALBANY, Ore. - The arrest of an Albany pastor on assault charges stemming from the spanking of his son with a paddle has raised the issue of corporal discipline and child abuse.

Pastor David Lee Fink of the Potter's House Christian Fellowship in Albany was charged with assault after police say his 17-year-old son called authorities to report an incident involving his younger brother and his father.

Police say they found "extreme" red marks, welts and bruising on the buttocks, thighs and arm of Fink's 13-year-old son on Monday.

Police took a 16-inch wooden paddle into evidence. The cracked paddle is time-worn and wrapped in duct tape in two places. "Board of correction" is written on the paddle in ballpoint pen.

Fink reportedly struck his son 10 times with the paddle.

Police say the spanking crossed the line into assault. One woman disagreed and said the police have gone too far and that the pastor had done nothing wrong.

Christina Niskanen said "I believe in the Bible and what does the Bible say about spanking? That's how we raised our children. I'm sorry, my children lived through it. I'm sure everybody else's will."

Another woman who did not give her name disagreed with Niskanen, saying, "I'd rather raise my voice than raise my hand. And even though in the Bible it says 'spare the rod, spoil the child,' I still feel spanking your children is not an appropriate measure, there's other means you can take."

The investigation is continuing in Albany.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Culture/Society; US: Oregon
KEYWORDS: corpralpunishment; discipline; spanking
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To: misterrob
What does it teach a child that their parent needs to use a hard object to beat them?

Well it taught me that my parents loved me enough to instill needed discipline to make me a better person. It taught me that my parents were not some limp spined types that care more about their own personal feelings than about letting a child turn into a brat. It taught me that they had the for sight and intelligencer to see that a few tears from a child were far better than a life time of destructive behavior. I thank them for it ever time I see a wild and unruly child.
51 posted on 03/02/2007 10:04:02 AM PST by TalonDJ
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To: Sopater

If corporal punishment is involved at the age of 13 - the parent failed the child at least 4 years earlier.


52 posted on 03/02/2007 10:05:39 AM PST by Frapster (Don't mind me - I'm distracted by the pretty lights.)
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To: street_lawyer
when the "spanking" goes beyond a point then it is no longer protected under the First Amendment

The First Amendment protects US from the government over stepping it's bounds. It does not, nor does it need to 'protect' certain forms of child rearing. You have the purpose of the constitution backward.
53 posted on 03/02/2007 10:05:45 AM PST by TalonDJ
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To: Frapster
Even 13 yearolds might rarely need it. But yeah, by then it should be more or less no existent. At around that age the butt becomes more resistant to pain, and the judgment of the kid is developed enough that other forms of punishment have more weight.
54 posted on 03/02/2007 10:08:48 AM PST by TalonDJ
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To: rednesss

More likely, the family situation he and his brother were in was a literal meat grinder, and he'll be glad he got himself and his brother out of it. If the younger boy was really seriously misbehaving, and the punishment he was getting was appropriate, the older boy would have little reason to call police. This father has raised his 17 year old to fear him and to think the government is a better source of protection and authority than his father. Nice job < /s>


55 posted on 03/02/2007 10:08:57 AM PST by GovernmentShrinker
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To: Bluestateredman
My mother would regularly beat me...almost exclusively over the grades I brought home. Once, she held a gun to my head and told me to call my dad at work and say goodbye.....this for bringing home a "C" on a report card. It was at that point that I realized she was nuts, and vowed to never hit my children. I remember telling her that I would never hit my own children, and she scoffed at the idea. Like another poster on this thread, when the time was right I left home and went far, far away.

I currently have two children...11 and 7...and have never hit them in anger. Somehow, they have grown up well adjusted.

56 posted on 03/02/2007 10:35:00 AM PST by ContemptofCourt
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To: TalonDJ

When I was a kid and broke something that belonged to another child I was forced to go into my piggy bank and use my allowance money that I had worked for to pay for it. If I had to do extra chores then so be it.

If I misused a toy that caused damage or harm, it went in the trash.

If I didn't do my assigned tasks then I lost TV and other privileges.

If I disprected my teachers then I was grounded.

If I was unwilling to be a good citizen in my house then my brother and sisters got to do things that I didn't.

When I was mean to another kid I had to go and ring the kid's doorbell and apologize to both the kid and the family.

I didn't need to be slapped in the face or beaten with a stick to learn how to behave.


57 posted on 03/02/2007 10:35:21 AM PST by misterrob (Jack Bauer/Chuck Norris 2008)
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To: Sopater

I think 13 is old for physical discipline. I don't think the police have any business getting into this, but I just don't think it's the best way to handle this.


58 posted on 03/02/2007 10:39:22 AM PST by twigs
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To: Bluestateredman

Proper spanking is not violence against children. Personally, I think around 5 is a good cut-off for spanking. After that, you can do other things. Before that, spanking IMHO is for getting their attention. A couple of smacks on the legs, just enough to hurt but not leave marks, is plenty adequate. Get their attention then deal with the problem. And children are different. Some don't respond to spanking at all and others do.


59 posted on 03/02/2007 10:42:44 AM PST by twigs
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To: Sopater

So do you follow all the other "wisdom scriptures" too?


60 posted on 03/02/2007 11:12:45 AM PST by newcats (Natural Born Skeptic)
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To: newcats
So do you follow all the other "wisdom scriptures" too?

? other ?
61 posted on 03/02/2007 11:54:02 AM PST by Sopater (Creatio Ex Nihilo)
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To: Sopater

I got plenty of spankings as a child and not a few "Swats" from teachers (Some of whom had rather elaborate woodworking projects for paddles)up until high school. But I never had welts or bruises because of them. This pastor may have gone a little overboard.

Just my opinion.


62 posted on 03/02/2007 12:17:32 PM PST by Chuckster (Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset)
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To: Chuckster

After I was grown and married, my Dad and I were fishing one day and I was telling him some of the nonsense I did that he never knew about. He looked at me, shook his head, and said, "Boy, if I had whipped your ass once a day, if I didn't know the reason you would have."


63 posted on 03/02/2007 12:21:02 PM PST by gobus1
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To: Eagles Talon IV

What is your question, and why do you ask?


64 posted on 03/03/2007 3:43:34 PM PST by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: misterrob
Children are not animals....

But once they adults it's o.k. to beat the crap out of them like Jack Bauer/Chuck Norris in you tag line?

65 posted on 03/03/2007 3:54:42 PM PST by steveo (Is there anything else I can help you with today?)
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To: TalonDJ
The First Amendment protects US from the government over stepping it's bounds. It does not, nor does it need to 'protect' certain forms of child rearing. You have the purpose of the constitution backward.

Prohibiting child abuse is within the police power of the government. perhaps this case will help you understand the law in this area:

Santosky v. Kramer

Today we hold that the Due Process Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment demands more than the "fair preponderance of the evidence". Before a State may sever completely and irrevocably the rights of parents in [p748] their natural child, due process requires that the State support its allegations by at least clear and convincing evidence.

if convinced that "positive, nurturing parent-child relationships no longer exist," § 384-b.1.(b), the State may initiate "permanent neglect" proceedings to free the child for adoption.

The State must further prove that the child's natural parents failed substantially and continuously or repeatedly to maintain contact with or plan for the future of the child although physically and financially able to do so.

State intervention in domestic relations has always been an unhappy but necessary feature of life in our organized society. For all of our experience in this area, we have found no fully satisfactory solutions to the painful problem of child abuse and neglect. We have found, however, that leaving the States free to experiment with various remedies has produced novel approaches and promising progress.

See However: 

Ingraham v. Wright

Today the Court holds that corporal punishment in public schools, no matter how severe, can never be the subject of the protections afforded by the Eighth Amendment. It also holds [p684] that students in the public school systems are not constitutionally entitled to a hearing of any sort before beatings can be inflicted on them.

I doubt I have to explain my point in citing the Ingraham case.

 

 

 

66 posted on 03/03/2007 4:15:05 PM PST by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: steveo

You really want to equate fictional people who kill bad guys on TV with parents disciplining their kids with objects?


67 posted on 03/03/2007 4:33:30 PM PST by misterrob (Jack Bauer/Chuck Norris 2008)
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To: misterrob

But to "Beat the crap out of someone is administering justice. " right?


68 posted on 03/03/2007 5:08:33 PM PST by steveo (Is there anything else I can help you with today?)
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To: street_lawyer

Your post said that when spanking "goes beyond a certain point" it is no longer protected. I asked you to tell us exactly what that point is.


69 posted on 03/04/2007 5:16:14 AM PST by Eagles Talon IV
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To: Sopater

Police say they found "extreme" red marks, welts and bruising on the buttocks, thighs and arm of Fink's 13-year-old son on Monday.



Don't believe that is what the Bible had in mind. I know for sure God did not want us abusing our children. I swat here and there is fine, but brusing???? Welts????? Not so much!!!!


70 posted on 03/04/2007 5:23:59 AM PST by napscoordinator
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To: taxcontrol

Holy Moly!!!! Sorry you went through that.


71 posted on 03/04/2007 5:26:48 AM PST by napscoordinator
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To: Eagles Talon IV
Your post said that when spanking "goes beyond a certain point" it is no longer protected. I asked you to tell us exactly what that point is.

Like pornography, you'll know it when you see it.
72 posted on 03/08/2007 2:48:31 PM PST by street_lawyer (Conservative Defender of the Faith)
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To: misterrob

Children are not animals....




Some, who are raised without discipline, certainly behave as if they are.


73 posted on 03/08/2007 2:54:37 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: taxcontrol

I wished, I PRAYED that someone would have come in and stopped my parents when it was welts and bruises .... because after that, comes the burning matches, the wire hangers, the blood dripping down the back, the broom handles, the two by fours etc.




May God comfort and heal you! What was done to you was not discipline. I think you must realize that.

Spanking is not to be done in anger. If it leaves a welt or breaks skin it's wrong. A spanking is supposed to be an "attention getter" for the kid.

Have you ever reconciled with your parents? What was the result?


74 posted on 03/08/2007 2:58:58 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: Sopater
In other words, the Bible is wrong? Well, that's your opinion.

So any amount and severity in terms of beating your child is alright since the Bible says 'spare the rod, spoil the child?'
75 posted on 03/08/2007 3:00:35 PM PST by Stone Mountain
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To: Sopater
If you are swift, consistent, and precede it with a verbal warning, you only have to do it a few times.

Yes. Once they understand this is a possibility, you almost never have to use it.

76 posted on 03/08/2007 3:03:03 PM PST by colorado tanker
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To: Bluestateredman; taxcontrol

As a child my siblings and I were "spanked" every day for one reason or another. The problem was there was no actual "correction." Over 90% of the time we had no idea what we did wrong.

Spanking for discipline is good if it is appropriate, is not done in anger, is done lovingly and if it teaches proper behavior.


77 posted on 03/08/2007 3:06:16 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: ContemptofCourt

I currently have two children...11 and 7...and have never hit them in anger. Somehow, they have grown up well adjusted.




Have you used spanking?


78 posted on 03/08/2007 3:10:40 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: taxcontrol
I wished, I PRAYED that someone would have come in and stopped my parents when it was welts and bruises .... because after that, comes the burning matches, the wire hangers, the blood dripping down the back, the broom handles, the two by fours etc.

Been there, my friend. My parents beat the crap out of me with the usual "This hurts me more than it hurts you," "I'm only doing this because I love you," and "There are many kids who wished their parents spanked them," CRAP!!!

If beating your kid with a whip, switch, belt, willow branch, paddle, rod, stick, or hand is so effective, then one would think that parents would only have to beat their kids once or twice to turn them into well-behaved children. My parents beat me from my earliest memories up until the day I left home for good at aged 17. Obviously the beatings didn't work.

In contrast, I have never laid a hand on either of my children. They are now teenagers, college bound, honor students, star athletes, and have never done anything to provoke the kind of anger that would cause me to spank them.

79 posted on 03/08/2007 3:22:05 PM PST by Labyrinthos
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To: Grizzled Bear

I did not reconcile with my parents and they are now dead. They never met their grand kids as I was not going expose my children to their abusive nature. Though to be honest, dad passed before my oldest child was old enough to understand.

I have not ever regretted my decision to cut ties with my parents. I met my wife and her parents have been so good to me that I have never looked back.


80 posted on 03/08/2007 3:53:14 PM PST by taxcontrol
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To: Labyrinthos
They are now teenagers, college bound, honor students, star athletes, and have never done anything to provoke the kind of anger that would cause me to spank them.



The point is you do NOT spank in anger. The horror stories involve parents with no self control trying to control a child (or in some cases, they are just sadistic monsters).

It sounds to me that you were determined to reach your kids without resorting to corporal punishment and succeeded.

Good for you!
81 posted on 03/08/2007 6:55:15 PM PST by Grizzled Bear ("Does not play well with others.")
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To: Grizzled Bear

never spanked my kids.


82 posted on 03/09/2007 6:27:55 AM PST by ContemptofCourt
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