Bill Costs Man Pennies -- 52,662 Of Them

The Indy Channel ^ | March 8, 2007

[Young Scholar]

The judge was just being obnoxious then? Obviously the guy was obnoxious in the first place, but that doesn't excuse an abuse of power by the judge.

If I'd been that guy, I would've been tempted to just send a check and ignore the court order, especially if it were in a different state.

[Freedom4US]

No, they are not!

If I walk into a store and try to buy a TV with pennies, they can say "Hell no". That isn't a *debt*. The store owner is free to specify the terms of payment - whether no checks, checks only, Wampum, gold, whatever. Do you understand the difference?

It may be that the power company has some standard boilerplate that tries to mitigate this kind of thing, but the fact is, pennies are money, and he owes them money. Without regard to this guy, he may be an idiot, get his credit dinged, and he may be in for a little "extra attention" in other matters of everyday life as well. Or even get his power turned off. Do power companies have the right of refusal? "Nah, keep yer money. We don't want ya as a customer." Hee.

[suijuris]

The business is free to refuse to accept the payment....and I hope they do.

No they are not. It is legal tender to apy a debt, unless the contract expressly states a specific type of payment.

[WLR]

Not if the coins are rolled.

W

[Keith in Iowa]

See posts #69 & 70 in this thread.

[Keith in Iowa]

See also: http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.html#q1

Part of which I'm quoting below for your perusal:

"There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy."

[bannie]

Copper's worth more than the paper.

[Keith in Iowa]

see above...

[Popman]

If it was my electric company, this ass hat would have his power cut off.

I'll tell him no thanks for your pennies, find another supplier for your electric needs

Almost ALL utilities are highly government regulated.

This bozo should be calling his state commissioner

[Dan(9698)]

Pennys have not been made of copper for many years.

They are copper plated over zinc.

[Zack Attack]

Yes, they can. Bills are "legal tender" and must be accepted in any denomination (if you accept cash at all), but coins, while they have value, are not "legal tender".

The Coinage Act of 1965 states thats all US coins in any quantity are "legal tender".

[Freedom4US]

see what, copper costs more today??

This is more interesting than one might think at first blush. How can a penny cost more than, well, a penny? It is because the nominal unit of account is "worth" more (or less) than the physical representation of the unit of account, in this case a lump of copper or zinc.

Anyhoo, "Legal Tender" means the government forces us to use it, and requires everyone to accept it.

Even silver dollars were, for a time, considered a pretty poor form of payment with some. In fact, they were limited to only debts up to $5, iirc. Again I think the whole affair dumb but that's really a different issue.


Remember we're talking about a *debt*, not a *payment*. If I can get the store owner to accept S&H Green Stamps, I'm good to go. You've probably got one in your wallet, take a look at it.
One might have to press the issue but offering cash payment for a *debt* must be considered an honest tender. I'm having trouble envisioning such a state of affairs. How hard is it to write a check? Electronic banking has really taken off. But the fact remains, the money plainly states "legal tender for all debts.., public and private". Hard to spin that. A lot of rural areas like the midwest, still deal with a lot of cash.

[Keith in Iowa]

>>>>Anyhoo, "Legal Tender" means the government forces us to use it, and requires everyone to accept it.

Excuse me, but did you not see the item from the US Treasury web site?

[Keith in Iowa]

I'll even post it again for you, so you don't need to scroll...

See also: http://www.ustreas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.html#q1

Part of which I'm quoting below for your perusal:

"There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy."

[Freedom4US]

Yes, and I see they agree with me, not surprisingly ;)

State law also factors into this. The motivation also matters - how would you feel about this story if it was an elderly spinster widower, who was unable to make her monthly payments without dipping into the dozens of 55 gallon drums of nickels her long-departed husband had acquired? This guy, on the other hand, is being an ass, and will get thumped for it, probably.

The power company will likely shut his power off, if this guy wants to get cute however. I certainly don't think any of this will improve this gentlemans' situation nor lower his power bill.

[Knitting A Conundrum]

From the Department of the Treasury Website:


FAQs: Currency
Legal Tender Status

I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

What are Federal Reserve notes and how are they different from United States notes?

What are United States Notes and how are they diferent from Federal Reserve notes?

Question I thought that United States currency was legal tender for all debts. Some businesses or governmental agencies say that they will only accept checks, money orders or credit cards as payment, and others will only accept currency notes in denominations of $20 or smaller. Isn't this illegal?

Answer The pertinent portion of law that applies to your question is the Coinage Act of 1965, specifically Section 31 U.S.C. 5103, entitled "Legal tender," which states: "United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

This statute means that all United States money as identified above are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy.

http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal-tender.shtml#q1

[Keith in Iowa]

>>>Yes, and I see they agree with me, not surprisingly ;)

Up to the point where we get to the material I quoted, which you completely contradicted.

And about your little story...kind of hard for a spinster widower to be a her.

[Keith in Iowa]

And if you meant 'spinster widow' in your little story, well...that would be an oxymoron.

[Freedom4US]

Where does Treasury contradict anything I quoted?

Would you agree that "legal tender" requires the force of law behind it, or not? Interestingly, the material you quoted also notes that individuals are free to accept, or not accept, the form of payment too. This has a lot of possibilities as well - since virtually all payments are by check, or electronic "check", actually. THEORETICALLY, one could demand cash for their tax refund, say. Stupid "Please Audit Me, NOW" yes, but probably doable from a cursory read.

[Keith in Iowa]

In post #112, you said, and I quote: "Anyhoo, "Legal Tender" means the government forces us to use it, and requires everyone to accept it." That is clearly false as the treasury's web site says, and I'll quote that again for you...and "There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person or an organization must accept currency or coins as for payment for goods and/or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise. For example, a bus line may prohibit payment of fares in pennies or dollar bills. In addition, movie theaters, convenience stores and gas stations may refuse to accept large denomination currency (usually notes above $20) as a matter of policy." Pay particular attention to the parts in the bold font, and see how what you said compares to the US Treasury...looks like you say one thing, while the Treasury Department is saying the opposite. I'll stick with the Treasury Department on this one.