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FRENCH ELECTION UPDATE : Street Violence by Paris Youths Intrudes Again Into French Politics
The New York Times ^ | March 29, 2007 | KATRIN BENNHOLD

Posted on 03/29/2007 2:06:12 PM PDT by Cincinna

PARIS -France’s top presidential candidates seized on a new campaign issue on Wednesday after the police fought gangs of youths for seven hours at a railroad station here. Stores were destroyed, the pall of tear gas filled the station, Gare du Nord, and 13 people were arrested.

The episode, described as “urban guerrilla warfare” by the new interior minister, François Baroin, was a reminder of the tensions still simmering 18 months after rioting swept immigrant neighborhoods across France. It foreshadowed the task ahead for the candidate who is elected president in May.

The police said the trouble began Tuesday afternoon at the subway station at Gare du Nord when an illegal immigrant from Congo jumped a turnstile and then tried to punch an agent who demanded to see his ticket.

(Excerpt) Read more at select.nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: france; frenchelection; illegalimmigants; mooligans; sarkozy; youths
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"an illegal immigrant from Congo jumped a turnstile and then tried to punch an agent"

Need I say more?

1 posted on 03/29/2007 2:06:14 PM PDT by Cincinna
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To: nctexan; MassachusettsGOP; paudio; ronnie raygun; Minette; WOSG; fieldmarshaldj; BillyBoy; ...

32 Day until April 22.

As soon as any Post-Riot polls are published, I will post them.

Please let me know if you want to be on or off this French Election (((Ping List))).


2 posted on 03/29/2007 2:10:05 PM PDT by Cincinna (HILLARY & HER HINO "We are going to take things away from you for the Common Good")
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To: Cincinna
The French are still in Stage I: Denial.

They have a long way to go.

3 posted on 03/29/2007 2:10:10 PM PDT by E. Pluribus Unum (Islam is a religion of peace, and Muslims reserve the right to kill anyone who says otherwise.)
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To: Cincinna

If I see the word "youths" used one more time I'm gonna bang my head against the desk repeatedly.


4 posted on 03/29/2007 2:11:00 PM PDT by The Blitherer ("What the devil is keeping the Yanks?")
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To: Cincinna

Is Paris burning?
Soon, muslim brothers, soon.


5 posted on 03/29/2007 2:11:15 PM PDT by Lexington Green (Every American killed by a Mexican truck is a homicide committed by our leaders..)
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To: The Blitherer

Youths ?


6 posted on 03/29/2007 2:13:26 PM PDT by farlander (Try not to wear milk bone underwear - it's a dog eat dog financial world)
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To: The Blitherer
WE ARE JUST INNOCENT YOUTHS!!!!!!!!!


7 posted on 03/29/2007 2:13:36 PM PDT by petercooper ("Daisy-cutters trump a wiretap anytime." - Nicole Gelinas - 02-10-04)
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To: Cincinna

Good thing it wasn't muslims or the French would really be kicking some ass.


8 posted on 03/29/2007 2:16:12 PM PDT by fat city (What part of cognitive dissonance don't you understand?)
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To: Cincinna

"'an illegal immigrant from Congo jumped a turnstile and then tried to punch an agent'
Need I say more?"

Yes.
You need to point out that if he was from the Congo, deep in sub-Saharan black Africa, he almost certainly wasn't a Muslim. This isn't simply a Muslim thing. It's a lawlessness issue. There were plenty of white French toughs in those pictures.

Do please publish the polls as soon as they go out.
I don't think this will hurt Sarkozy much.
I don't think it will help Royal much.
I think Le Pen will pick up some steam.
Bayrou may lose some to Royal on the issue.


9 posted on 03/29/2007 2:16:51 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Le chien aboie; la caravane passe.)
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To: The Blitherer
>>>...the police fought gangs of youths <<<<

ethnicless, faceless, colorless, agendaless, motiveless, youths.

There...that describes them.

Don't bang your head, bang some "youths'

10 posted on 03/29/2007 2:16:59 PM PDT by HardStarboard (The Democrats are more afraid of American Victory than Defeat!)
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To: Vicomte13
>>>...he almost certainly wasn't a Muslim.<<<

1) Why the Farsi or arabic on the headbands?

2) Why are the headbands in the same green as Hezbollah's colors?

11 posted on 03/29/2007 2:22:18 PM PDT by HardStarboard (The Democrats are more afraid of American Victory than Defeat!)
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To: petercooper

The true faces of Islam.


12 posted on 03/29/2007 2:27:50 PM PDT by 353FMG (I never met a liberal I didn't dislike.)
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To: The Blitherer
If I see the word "youths" used one more time I'm gonna bang my head against the desk repeatedly.

OK... les jeunes. Now isn't that better?

13 posted on 03/29/2007 2:37:02 PM PDT by nctexan (Top 10 Presidential Reqs. for 2008 - see my homepage)
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To: Cincinna

Someone tell me if I am wrong but I read somewhere that the burning of cars in Paris and elsewhere continues every day. But the main stream media does not report it.


14 posted on 03/29/2007 2:39:40 PM PDT by YOUGOTIT (The Greatest Threat to our Security is the US Senate)
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To: Vicomte13

"deep in sub-Saharan black Africa, he almost certainly wasn't a Muslim."

I bet you he was!


15 posted on 03/29/2007 2:41:35 PM PDT by YOUGOTIT (The Greatest Threat to our Security is the US Senate)
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To: HardStarboard
ethnicless, faceless, colorless, agendaless, motiveless, youths.

Mooligans.

They shout and punch like hooligans,
As they burn a car, or fifty.
Mais oui! They are Les Mooligans.
And way, way short of nifty.

16 posted on 03/29/2007 2:42:26 PM PDT by syriacus (Truman as president: Korean War; 30,000 US deaths; full wartime censorship; military draft)
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To: nctexan

Personally, I prefer "Yoots"


17 posted on 03/29/2007 2:44:19 PM PDT by Cincinna (HILLARY & HER HINO "We are going to take things away from you for the Common Good")
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To: Cincinna

Put me down for the election ping list. I will actually be in Paris for the second round of voting in May. I will make sure to have plenty of memory left in my digital camera to take some shots if things go south.


18 posted on 03/29/2007 2:46:14 PM PDT by milwguy
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To: HardStarboard

The fellow jumping over the turnstile who head-butted the cops was wearing headbands?


19 posted on 03/29/2007 2:47:59 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Le chien aboie; la caravane passe.)
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To: Vicomte13

Illegal immigrant from the Congo, well known to police with 22 previous arrests. There is a criminal element in France among these illegals, Muslims or "other".

I think when the new polls come out, they will show some slight gain for Sarko, a slight loss for Royal and Bayrou, and a slight gain for Villiers and le Pen.


20 posted on 03/29/2007 2:48:01 PM PDT by Cincinna (HILLARY & HER HINO "We are going to take things away from you for the Common Good")
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To: The Blitherer
If I see the word "youths" used one more time I'm gonna bang my head against the desk repeatedly.

I call them mooligans.

21 posted on 03/29/2007 2:48:24 PM PDT by syriacus (Truman as president: Korean War; 30,000 US deaths; full wartime censorship; military draft)
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To: Cincinna

Why do they always have to stereotype them as "youths"? Not all youths are rioters you know. I'm sure there are a lot of fine young people in that country and they make it sound as if they are all juvenile delinquents! If I was a young person in that country I would be outraged that I was being labeled in such a manner.


22 posted on 03/29/2007 2:49:06 PM PDT by faq
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To: Vicomte13

I don't pretend to know who this helps or hurts. I can only observe that Gare du Nord is like Grand Central or Penn Station for NY'ers. It's the rare person who's been to Paris who hasn't been at Gare du Nord at one time or another. I seem to recall reading it's either the top or the second busiest train station in the world. IOW - this is hitting closer to home for anyone familiar with Paris.


23 posted on 03/29/2007 2:50:11 PM PDT by 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
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To: milwguy

Lucky you! Paris is gorgeous in May.

I hope you will be able to post your photos here on FR.


24 posted on 03/29/2007 2:50:39 PM PDT by Cincinna (HILLARY & HER HINO "We are going to take things away from you for the Common Good")
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To: faq

The French Press is in a state of denial. "yoots" "les jeunes" is a code phrase that everyone understands. They never specify race, national origin of these people.


25 posted on 03/29/2007 2:52:26 PM PDT by Cincinna (HILLARY & HER HINO "We are going to take things away from you for the Common Good")
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To: Cincinna

No, that says it all. Sad, though. Although we love our associations with the old France, we must face a painful fact: the current France is lost. No longer should France be considered an ally; no longer should France be considered part of the West; no longer should France be considered an active democracy.


26 posted on 03/29/2007 2:57:06 PM PDT by Continental Soldier
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To: Vicomte13

I haven't seen a photo of the actual suspect,but the papers are reporting him as an illegal immigrant from the Congo, 33 years old. Hardly a "yoot".

As anyone who knows Paris well has observed firsthand, turnstyle jumping is extremely common. It is usually left unchallenged, occasionally, if there is a cop (flic) present, the offender will be stopped, asked for National Identity Card, and given a PV, "proces verbal" the equivalent of a warning ticket. My guess is this offender got violent with the cop and the melee ensued.


27 posted on 03/29/2007 2:57:44 PM PDT by Cincinna (HILLARY & HER HINO "We are going to take things away from you for the Common Good")
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To: Continental Soldier

I wouldn't count France out just yet.

There is a real chance that Sarko will be the next President, and he will make a difference. Sarko may be France's last hope for reform, and survival as an economically viable, productuve country, and trading power. Let's hope the French are smart enough to seize the opportunity.


28 posted on 03/29/2007 3:00:26 PM PDT by Cincinna (HILLARY & HER HINO "We are going to take things away from you for the Common Good")
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To: Cincinna

Poor Villiers. I like him you know, but he's just hopeless.
I think Le Pen could pick up some real traction. Not enough to WIN, of course, but enough to get the knickers of the left all in a wad.

You are correct about the criminal element in France. You really have to work to get yourself outright killed in France, but you're actually more likely to get robbed (or raped) in Paris than in New York, sad to say.

The difference in penal policy is quite marked. In America, there are 2.1 million criminals locked up. You get locked up for anything. That certainly DOES keep down both the crime rate AND the unemployment rate (by about 2%).
It's more immediately expensive than welfare, and it produces trained criminals when they get out.

In France, there are only 36,000 people in prison, including couple thousand in detention provisoire. If France had the same penal policies as America, there would be in excess of 440,000 people in prison (population adjusted). So, in essence, France does not incarcerate anyone except killers and very rich tax evaders. The net result is lower overall expenses on prisons, but much higher street crime, and of course higher unemployment.

The one thing I prefer about Sarkozy over all of the others is that he is belligerent about crime. France really needs that. All of Europe needs it, but the rest of Europe is none of my business. If I were King, France would not have America's criminal policy (I would not imprison people for marijuana), but France would have a very, very aggressive policy of seriously imprisoning people who commit robberies, beatings, and other violence, including damage to property. Yes, it costs to incarcerate. Yes, prisons become training ground for criminals (unless you give prisoners other things to worry their time). But I think the general degradation of the rule of law in society, and the expense of property damage and fear of law-abiding people is intolerable.

I don't want the police beating mobs of crooks on the street and damaging the vision of the government. I want the prison guards beating them behind thick stone walls, where nobody sees it, where it does not become a cause celebre for more lawlessness and destruction. France needs the rule of law, applied in the protection of the law abiding France.

Of course I am not King, and none of the candidates are perfect. I DESPISE Sarkozy's affirmative action proposal. The gentle Bayrou's philosophy is best. But dammit all to hell we cannot have mobs of criminals breaking open shops and destroying everything all the time, making it unsafe for law-abiding people, taxpayers to simply use the trains they pay, and exposing children to all of this violence and danger.

Sarkozy, at least, is willing to bust heads. Unfortunately, in his previous positions he has never shown good follow-through. He's a little adrenal gland who really gets the riots going full storm by crackdowns, but then backs away. But maybe that is because Chi-Chi is the doddering old fool that he is, and Dominiquette has no spine for a fight. Sarkozy has never been truly in command. He has always been a subaltern.

Sarkozy's ideas are bad for France. Affirmative Action is bad for France. But ideas don't matter a crap if the streets are on fire, do they? Sarkozy and Le Pen are the only ones who are willing to speak of putting la main fort directly on the neck of the bandits and eliminating them from the streets.

Perhaps it is time.
If Sarkozy will do the right thing on crime, it will transform France. His badly thought out other policies will be no good, but can be repealed. If he will bring order, then that may be enough.

I am appreciating Sarkozy more and more, in spite of his flaws. Bayrou is right on so many issues, but is not lawlessness the bigger issue? Do we not have to have CONTROL, simple basic CONTROL of the streets, before we can imagine intricate adjustments to law and policy. Perfect laws don't do anything if law is not being enforced.

Imagine if there were no Sarkozy in this race. With this, and what will likely follow, it would be another Year of Le Pen. But this time, he would go farther.

Keep me posted on the polls, but also please post whatever else comes from the Prefecture regarding police actions and incidents. There was always the potential for big things to alter the ground. Does this expand? Is it contained? Is the simmer boiling elsewhere?

France needs a firm hand. The palsied hand is leaving. Royal's is sclerotic in a socialist way.
Bayrou...may be too gentle for the job.
France needs someone who will enforce her laws, all of them.
That may have to be Sarkozy after all.
If not him, there is only one other whose resolve is certain and unquestionable, and unquestioned: Le Pen.

Whoever wins must take this in hand and put the boot on the neck of the street criminals. Le Pen will. Royal will not. Bayrou? The question mark, in this case, is inadequate.
Sarkozy. I believe Sarkozy will. What I don't know is whether he will do it effectively, once he is in charge, or whether he will prove to be like Rumsfeld in Iraq: strong, tough talking, but incompetent. Sarkozy's past withdrawals in the face of violent pushback makes me worry, but he was not his own man then. As President, he would be.

I think maybe we have been reminded of why Sarkozy has to win. Or Le Pen. Ideas and programmes are wonderful, but if the rule of law does not run in the land, then they are meaningless. Order must be restored in France. Le Pen will. Sarkozy probably will. Bayrou? Royal no.

Given that, perhaps it is Sarkozy's time.


29 posted on 03/29/2007 3:16:11 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Le chien aboie; la caravane passe.)
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To: 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten

Yes. I once lived very close to Gare du Nord and commuted through it every day.

The crime is intolerable. It has to be stopped. Only force can stop it. The only two men who will really use force are Sarkozy and Le Pen.

So, it has to be Sarkozy or Le Pen.
Even I can see that, or have been reminded of it.


30 posted on 03/29/2007 3:18:05 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Le chien aboie; la caravane passe.)
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To: Cincinna
IS PARIS BURNING?? IS PARIS BURNING???Signed: Uncle Adolph or Ali-Ali Ack Bar.
31 posted on 03/29/2007 3:20:17 PM PDT by RetiredArmy (The TIME is coming to take up arms and defend the Republic. Get ready!!!! NOW!!!)
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To: Cincinna

Yes, let's hope.


32 posted on 03/29/2007 3:22:26 PM PDT by Continental Soldier
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To: Cincinna

Yes, that's right. Disregard for the rules in the Metro is universal among a certain visible class of young people, and some not-so-young like this cretin who started this.

Yes, as I understand it, this congolais charged the police, they hit him, and the band of voyous all around began a general melee.

It has got to stop. These bastards have to be beaten into submission, and it has to be done behind prison walls, where it belongs.

Only Sarkozy or Le Pen will do that, and only Sarkozy is tolerable to most French. It has to be him, now.

What has happened today? I have not seen the news nor spoken with anyone back there yet, and it will be too late when I get home. More unrest, or has the firm hand been clamped down?


33 posted on 03/29/2007 3:22:38 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Le chien aboie; la caravane passe.)
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To: Vicomte13
"You need to point out that if he was from the Congo, deep in sub-Saharan black Africa, he almost certainly wasn't a Muslim."

Oh, I think Nigeria qualifies as sub-Saharan, as does Somalia, Eritria, Kenya. Many Muslim Black Panthers down there, all over. Lots of UK, US and French born Mooslime Black Panthers, too. Some Black Panthers are white.

yitbos

34 posted on 03/29/2007 3:27:10 PM PDT by bruinbirdman ("Those who control language control minds." -- Ayn Rand)
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To: Cincinna

If I get some shots I will certainly post them. Nothing like a riot in Paris in May. Been there twice and haven't seen a riot yet.


35 posted on 03/29/2007 3:39:29 PM PDT by milwguy
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To: Vicomte13

I agree with you about it being Sarko's time. Villiers is just so elitist and prissy, the part of his message that is interesting just doesn't get through. I don't think he has, however, the depth that Sarko has.

Re: "The difference in penal policy is quite marked. In America, there are 2.1 million criminals locked up. You get locked up for anything. That certainly DOES keep down both the crime rate AND the unemployment rate "

In America, as you well know, one cannot get "locked up for anything". You can be arrested, but you must be brought before a Judge or Grand Jury and indicted within 24-48 hours.

Unlike France, we have a 4th Amendment, and no preventive or unlimited detention without being charged for a crime.

Crime, petty crime, street crime and the like are quality of life issues that affect the way the rest of society, ie, the law abiding overwhelming majority live. NYC with Rudy as Mayor is the outstanding example of how dealing with these smaller crimes led to a dramatic lowering of all crime.


36 posted on 03/29/2007 3:55:38 PM PDT by Cincinna (HILLARY & HER HINO "We are going to take things away from you for the Common Good")
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To: Vicomte13

There is little in the French media about this today. It was the #5 story on French News last night.

If you are in the NYC metro area, you can watch French News with subtitles (I know you don't need them, but others might) on WNYC TV channel 25 at 7 pm. I get TV 5 Monde on Cable, lots of news, but a lot of crappy soap type shows and game shows.


37 posted on 03/29/2007 3:58:47 PM PDT by Cincinna (HILLARY & HER HINO "We are going to take things away from you for the Common Good")
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To: bruinbirdman

"Some Black Panthers are white"

Do you mean Caucasian Europeans? Are these the same as Farrakkhan's Nation of Islam?


38 posted on 03/29/2007 4:00:33 PM PDT by Cincinna (HILLARY & HER HINO "We are going to take things away from you for the Common Good")
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To: Cincinna

"Youths"= radical muslim terrorists in waiting. France is most certainly doomed.


39 posted on 03/29/2007 4:18:56 PM PDT by RacerX1128
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To: Vicomte13

The guys in the pictures were bystanders?


40 posted on 03/29/2007 4:39:21 PM PDT by HardStarboard (The Democrats are more afraid of American Victory than Defeat!)
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To: milwguy
I will actually be in Paris for the second round of voting in May. I will make sure to have plenty of memory left in my digital camera to take some shots if things go south.

Careful, there. The French government says only "journalists" can report on that sort of thing.

41 posted on 03/29/2007 4:52:46 PM PDT by Spirochete
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To: petercooper

That's my favorite Muslim picture. It clearly shows their insanity. LOL

42 posted on 03/29/2007 5:36:37 PM PDT by NRA2BFree (Duncan Hunter for President '08 - A genuine "Reagan Republican" for America!)
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To: Vicomte13

You have flipped on your choice over this incident, it would seem from the centrist to the tough guy. I find that interesting. In the larger scheme of things, it was nothing as compared to the previous widespread incindiary one, yet that did not cause you to support the tough guy, and this one does. That suggests to me a certain emotionalism suffuses your intellectual mind. Am I wrong in that?


43 posted on 03/29/2007 8:23:35 PM PDT by Torie (The real facts can sometimes be inconvenient things)
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To: Torie

I get angry when people riot.


44 posted on 03/29/2007 9:26:39 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Le chien aboie; la caravane passe.)
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To: Cincinna

Have they surrendered to those Youths yet??

Pray for W and Our Troops


45 posted on 03/29/2007 9:30:07 PM PDT by bray (Redeploy to Tehran)
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To: Torie

i am willing to give M. le Vicomte a pass on this one. I hope that many more French people read the writing on the wall after this incident, and switch from the wishy-washy Bayrou to the tought law and order Sarko, who can actually deal with these problems.


46 posted on 03/29/2007 9:30:44 PM PDT by Cincinna (HILLARY & HER HINO "We are going to take things away from you for the Common Good")
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To: NRA2BFree; dead

I can't think of that pic without seeing dead's photoshop job with them as Mets fans.


47 posted on 03/29/2007 9:32:30 PM PDT by dfwgator (The University of Florida - Championship U)
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To: Cincinna

I respect anyone's personal choices. I am just suprised that this rather minor contretemps caused a flip in the French Vicomte.


48 posted on 03/29/2007 9:32:31 PM PDT by Torie (The real facts can sometimes be inconvenient things)
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To: petercooper

Yeah they look peaceful too...


49 posted on 03/29/2007 9:33:38 PM PDT by Sprite518
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To: Vicomte13

Well, why didn't you get angry with the much larger riot last year when a zillion cars burned, and whole neighborhoods were in chaos, in the sense of going to the tough guy then? I am just trying to get inside your mind. I am not questioning your sincerity.


50 posted on 03/29/2007 9:34:25 PM PDT by Torie (The real facts can sometimes be inconvenient things)
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