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DNA Boosts Herodotus’ Account of Etruscans as Migrants to Italy
NY Times ^ | April 3, 2007 | NICHOLAS WADE

Posted on 04/03/2007 9:27:29 PM PDT by neverdem

Geneticists have added an edge to a 2,500-year-old debate over the origin of the Etruscans, a people whose brilliant and mysterious civilization dominated northwestern Italy for centuries until the rise of the Roman republic in 510 B.C. Several new findings support a view held by the ancient Greek historian Herodotus — but unpopular among archaeologists — that the Etruscans originally migrated to Italy from the Near East.

Though Roman historians played down their debt to the Etruscans, Etruscan culture permeated Roman art, architecture and religion. The Etruscans were master metallurgists and skillful seafarers who for a time dominated much of the Mediterranean. They enjoyed unusually free social relations, much remarked on by ancient historians of other cultures.

“Sharing wives is an established Etruscan custom,” wrote the Greek historian Theopompos of Chios in the fourth century B.C. “Etruscan women take particular care of their bodies and exercise often. It is not a disgrace for them to be seen naked. Further, they dine not with their own husbands, but with any men who happen to be present.”

He added that Etruscan women “are also expert drinkers and are very good looking.”

Etruscan culture was very advanced and very different from other Italian cultures of the time. But most archaeologists have seen a thorough continuity between a local Italian culture known as the Villanovan that emerged around 900 B.C. and the Etruscan culture, which began in 800 B.C.

“The overwhelming proportion of archaeologists would regard the evidence for eastern origins of the Etruscans as negligible,” said Anthony Tuck, an archaeologist at the University of Massachusetts Center for Etruscan Studies.

Because Italians take pride in the Roman empire and the Etruscan state that preceded it, asserting a foreign origin for the Etruscans has long been politically controversial in Italy. Massimo Pallottino, the dean of...

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: antoniotorroni; dna; etruscans; godsgravesglyphs; helixmakemineadouble; herodotus; italy
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Etruscan Heritage(haplogroup map)


European Pressphoto Agency
The ancient Etruscans may have migrated to Italy from the Near East, bringing sophisticated art, like the terra cotta statue of Apollo of Velo.
There's another pic from Corbis(verboten) on the regular webpage:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/science/03etruscan.html?ref=science

1 posted on 04/03/2007 9:27:33 PM PDT by neverdem
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To: blam

ping!


2 posted on 04/03/2007 9:38:03 PM PDT by sageb1 (This is the Final Crusade. There are only 2 sides. Pick one.)
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To: neverdem
“Someone who had a different position didn’t get a job in archaeology,” said Antonio Torroni, a geneticist at the University of Pavia.

The world of academic freedom and science. So very pure and objective.

Interesting article

3 posted on 04/03/2007 9:38:42 PM PDT by siunevada (If we learn nothing from history, what's the point of having one? - Peggy Hill)
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To: El Gato; Ernest_at_the_Beach; Robert A. Cook, PE; lepton; LadyDoc; jb6; tiamat; PGalt; Dianna; ...
New Crystalline Solids Can Reversibly Increase Their Volume More Than 3x;

Superbug Strain Claims First Life In Japan

FReepmail me if you want on or off my health and science ping list.

4 posted on 04/03/2007 9:47:32 PM PDT by neverdem (May you be in heaven a half hour before the devil knows that you're dead.)
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remarkable... the Lemnian Stele must be unheard of among these supposed scholars... the Ionian trade links and deity names... even the medusa head coins...

On The Origin Of The Etruscan Civilisation
New Scientist | 2-14-2007 | Michael Day
Posted on 02/14/2007 11:39:18 AM EST by blam
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1784716/posts


5 posted on 04/03/2007 10:45:55 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv
Several new findings support a view held by the ancient Greek historian Herodotus — but unpopular among archaeologists — that the Etruscans originally migrated to Italy from the Near East.

I wish I had a dollar for every time current discoveries support Herodotus. Truly the father of history.

6 posted on 04/03/2007 10:46:27 PM PDT by kitchen (Over gunned? Hell, that's better than the alternative!)
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To: neverdem; blam; FairOpinion; StayAt HomeMother; Ernest_at_the_Beach; 24Karet; 3AngelaD; 49th; ...
Thanks neverdem. Herodotus wins again. :')

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
Please FREEPMAIL me if you want on or off the
"Gods, Graves, Glyphs" PING list or GGG weekly digest
-- Archaeology/Anthropology/Ancient Cultures/Artifacts/Antiquities, etc.
Gods, Graves, Glyphs (alpha order)

7 posted on 04/03/2007 10:52:31 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: kitchen

I guess these archaeologists being discussed in the article have never heard of a people — say, hypothetically, the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes of the 5th century AD — up and leaving their homeland by boat and settling in an entirely different land, and producing a significantly different hybrid culture. :’)


8 posted on 04/03/2007 10:57:33 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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Unique book goes on display
Unique book goes on display
BBC
Monday, 26 May, 2003
The world's oldest multiple-page book - in the lost Etruscan language - has gone on display in Bulgaria's National History Museum in Sofia. It contains six bound sheets of 24 carat gold, with illustrations of a horse-rider, a mermaid, a harp and soldiers. The small manuscript, which is more than two-and-a-half millennia old, was discovered 60 years ago in a tomb uncovered during digging for a canal along the Strouma river in south-western Bulgaria... There are around 30 similar pages known in the world, Ms Penkova said, "but they are not linked together in a book".

9 posted on 04/03/2007 11:07:55 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: neverdem

Where does the article get 510 BC as the founding of the ‘Roman Republic’?

The founding of Rome has always been dated as 753 BC.

The society started off as a kingdom, then became a republic, then an empire.


10 posted on 04/03/2007 11:10:20 PM PDT by AlmaKing
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To: AlmaKing

Yes, the last King was driven out of Rome around 510 BC. Athen also established the first democracy a few years later.


11 posted on 04/03/2007 11:36:18 PM PDT by Eternal_Bear
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To: neverdem
“Sharing wives is an established Etruscan custom,” wrote the Greek historian Theopompos of Chios in the fourth century B.C. “Etruscan women take particular care of their bodies and exercise often. It is not a disgrace for them to be seen naked. Further, they dine not with their own husbands, but with any men who happen to be present.”

He added that Etruscan women “are also expert drinkers and are very good looking.”

Etruscan Gone Wild ....

Now where did I park the time machine???

12 posted on 04/03/2007 11:56:32 PM PDT by Republican Party Reptile
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To: neverdem

I always thought Victir Mature looked like an Etruscan http://ia.ec.imdb.com/media/imdb/01/I/62/55/22m.jpg


13 posted on 04/04/2007 1:05:22 AM PDT by marsh2
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To: AlmaKing

“Where does the article get 510 BC as the founding of the ‘Roman Republic’?”

Uhhh, because that’s when the republican period began?


14 posted on 04/04/2007 1:56:44 AM PDT by Bob J (nks)
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To: AlmaKing

We love newbies, keep up the entertainment.


15 posted on 04/04/2007 1:57:39 AM PDT by Bob J (nks)
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To: SunkenCiv

I believe this study.

But travel by the Anglo-Saxons to England from Northern Germany is a much shorter route than the Etruscans would have to have taken. Also, the Anglo-Saxons themselves may have initially had some familiarity with the area by having been deliberately settled there as allied forces by the Romans.

I think perhaps the Etruscan ancestors were members of the Sea-Peoples who raided the Egyptian delta.


16 posted on 04/04/2007 3:02:56 AM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: marsh2

He was Polish.


17 posted on 04/04/2007 3:03:34 AM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: Republican Party Reptile

Sounds like they did not follow strict muslim requirements for burkhas and segregation by gender.


18 posted on 04/04/2007 3:07:12 AM PDT by rod1 (uake)
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To: neverdem
The Murlo residents’ lineages are quite different from those of people in other Italian towns. When placed on a chart of mitochondrial lineages from Europe and the Near East, the people of Murlo map closest to Palestinians and Syrians, a team led by Dr. Torroni and Alessandro Achilli reports in the April issue of The American Journal of Human Genetics.

There is a well-established Rabbinic tradition that Rome emerged partially from Edom, a sister nation to Israel that inhabited portions of present-day Israel and Jordan. I've always thought the tradition quite improbable, even fanciful, and probably deriving from Rome's decision to put an Edomite (Herod) on the throne of Judea. This study, I suppose, gives the Rabbis at least a drop of credibility -- although given that Etruscan isn't Semetic either, just a drop.

19 posted on 04/04/2007 3:22:19 AM PDT by ChicagoHebrew (Hell exists, it is real. It's a quiet green meadow populated entirely by Arab goat herders.)
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To: sageb1; neverdem; SunkenCiv
"The new findings may prompt specialists to look for an arrival date compatible with the archaeological and linguistic data, which essentially means before the proto-Villanovan culture of 1100 to 900 B.C. "

There was a severe cooling event in 1159BC that was recorded in the tree-rings worldwide. Cooling events of this nature (volcano/asteroid impact) are usually associated with drought conditions in many areas.

Also, this was the period of the David plague, Troy collapsed and the Shang Dynasty in China collapsed. A lot was happening worldwide at this time. Conditions were so severe that it is recorded in Chinese writings that '250,000 took to the sea'.

20 posted on 04/04/2007 5:54:12 AM PDT by blam
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To: Republican Party Reptile
"Etruscan Gone Wild ....Now where did I park the time machine???"

Here it is!

21 posted on 04/04/2007 6:25:29 AM PDT by Uncle Miltie (McCain / Feingold - 2008 ... "Shut Up or Go To Prison")
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bump


22 posted on 04/04/2007 6:46:09 AM PDT by Ben Ficklin
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To: neverdem
Greek historian Theopompos of Chios in the fourth century B.C. “Etruscan women take particular care of their bodies and exercise often. It is not a disgrace for them to be seen naked. Further, they dine not with their own husbands, but with any men who happen to be present.”

He added that Etruscan women “are also expert drinkers and are very good looking.

...wondering if Theopompos had his "4th Century BC Beer Goggles" on?

23 posted on 04/04/2007 8:36:28 AM PDT by Tallguy
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To: neverdem

You have to be awfully nearsighted to think a woman looking like that statue was beautiful.


24 posted on 04/04/2007 8:37:15 AM PDT by Sam Ketcham (Amnesty means vote dilution, & increased taxes to bring us down to the world poverty level.)
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To: sageb1

Hmmm. Etruscan women were expert drinkers, good looking great bodies, love to go naked and hook up with men other than their husbands.

“Etruscan culture was very advanced” No kidding!

No wonder the Romans wanted to conquer them. The rape of the Sabine women may have been an actual fact—but maybe redundant?


25 posted on 04/04/2007 9:17:19 AM PDT by wildbill
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To: neverdem

How’s this for a theory?

The Egyptians originally coined the name “Peoples of the Sea” for the foreign contingents that the Libyans brought in to support their attack on Egypt in c. 1220 BC during the reign of Pharaoh Merneptah. In the records of that war, five Sea Peoples are named: the Shardana, Teresh, Lukka, Shekelesh and Ekwesh, and are collectively referred to as “northerners coming from all lands”. The evidence for their exact origins is extremely sparse, but archaeologists specializing in this period have proposed the following:

The Shardana may have originated in northern Syria, but later moved to Cyprus and probably eventually ended up as the Sardinians.

The Teresh and Lukka were probably from western Anatolia, and may correspond to the ancestors of the later Lydians and Lycians, respectively. However, the Teresh may also have been the people later known to the Greeks as the Tyrsenoi, i.e., the Etruscans, and already familiar to the Hittites as the Taruisa, which latter is suspiciously similar to the Greek Troia. I won’t speculate on how this fits in with the Aeneas legend.

Sorta fits with the article we’re discussing with the exception of the years. But dating can be off sometimes as new cultures at different locations arise.


26 posted on 04/04/2007 9:26:15 AM PDT by wildbill
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To: kitchen
I wish I had a dollar for every time current discoveries support Herodotus. Truly the father of history.

Herodotus is also called the father of liars.

27 posted on 04/04/2007 10:01:58 AM PDT by curmudgeonII (Dum spiro spero.)
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To: curmudgeonII

He was called “Father of Lies” by Plutarch, but the P-man had some issues with Herodotus’ treatment of the Persians — Plutarch thought the Persians weren’t portrayed in all their evil-ness. A few years back there was a headline that Herodotus had been shot down again regarding some hearsay he’d included about, hmm, I think it was burial practices in Central Asia. But the story described the very things he’d written about having been found in some dig there. :’)


28 posted on 04/04/2007 10:59:15 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: ZULU

The Etruscans only had to traverse the Mediterranean, not the North Sea. In both cases, there was so much coming and going that knowledge of the territories was current and thorough.


29 posted on 04/04/2007 11:04:27 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: wildbill

The dating is indeed off. :’)


30 posted on 04/04/2007 11:05:28 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: wildbill

I think the Sabines were not Etruscan, but I didn’t check. :’) The Romans and Greek didn’t have their wives to dinner when there were guests (not at this time), but the Etruscans did. :’)


31 posted on 04/04/2007 11:07:12 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: neverdem

Heroditus was a collector of myths and folktales. Entertaining, but not history.


32 posted on 04/04/2007 11:08:10 AM PDT by RightWhale (3 May '07 3:14 PM)
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To: neverdem
Probably the most significant invention in the history of architecture: The Etruscan Arch.
33 posted on 04/04/2007 11:14:17 AM PDT by Lonesome in Massachussets ("We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us.")
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To: SunkenCiv

Perhaps.

But the linear distance between Asia Minor and northwestern Italy is greater than the linear distance between the coast of northern Germany and coast of Britain. Additionally the Etruscans, like most Ancient sailors, would probably have followed the coastlines wherever possible, which would have made the journy even longer.

I wonder why they selected that spot rather than place closer - like Sicily ?


34 posted on 04/04/2007 11:14:24 AM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: RightWhale
Herodotus combined folklore, myths, legends and facts.

Separating them can be trying at times. But a lot of what he said made sense.

For instance, he said the Ancient Egyptians build the pyramids from the top down. In actuality, the exteriors were probably FINISHED from the top down after the actual structures were completed.

35 posted on 04/04/2007 11:16:59 AM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: Claud

Ping...


36 posted on 04/04/2007 11:18:17 AM PDT by Antoninus (I don't vote for liberals, regardless of party.)
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To: ZULU
a lot of what he said made sense

Or was entertaining or both. Somebody mentioned he was the father of history and he sort of was in the sense that he caused some to say 'we have to tighten this up a little.'

37 posted on 04/04/2007 11:21:06 AM PDT by RightWhale (3 May '07 3:14 PM)
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To: ChicagoHebrew
There is a well-established Rabbinic tradition that Rome emerged partially from Edom, a sister nation to Israel that inhabited portions of present-day Israel and Jordan.

Edom, a nation of people descended from Jacob's big brother Esau, and roundly cursed by prophet after prophet for their treatment of the Hebrews. Petra was once an Edomite capitol, and remains an eerie and fascinating historical site in modern-day Jordan.

38 posted on 04/04/2007 11:25:56 AM PDT by Oberon (What does it take to make government shrink?)
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To: SunkenCiv

Greek sailor to Etruscan sailor: You call that a boat? You couldn’t from Athens to Alexandria in a month in a tailwind in that tub.


39 posted on 04/04/2007 11:30:55 AM PDT by RightWhale (3 May '07 3:14 PM)
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To: Sam Ketcham
You have to be awfully nearsighted to think a woman looking like that statue was beautiful.

True. But that statue is of a man.

40 posted on 04/04/2007 11:38:28 AM PDT by Celtjew Libertarian (WWGD -- What would Groucho do?)
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To: ZULU
the Etruscans, like most Ancient sailors, would probably have followed the coastlines wherever possible, which would have made the journy even longer.
Had they, it's a sure bet that the Angles, Saxons, and Jutes would have also, because there was no technological change in the interim. The back-and-forth to the Tyrhennian coast (and Rome, eventually) involved use of the Straits of Messina because it was shorter; coastal sailing wasn't generally preferred, although there's a longstanding idea that it was, despite all the surviving ancient texts to the contrary. Sicily wasn't picked because it was already occupied by the local population. Even in Mycenaean times the Greeks had some kind of trading or colonial presence in Sicily, and of course later the Phoenicians and Carthaginians.

-inthos place names, from, hmm, Settegast?

-inthos place names

41 posted on 04/04/2007 11:48:33 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: RightWhale
Au contraire. Herodotus discusses the Nile flood, giving the three tales he heard of it, including the correct one -- which he thinks is the least likely -- then proposes a howler of his own to explain it. He's shown that the real reason was known in his time, and preserves it, despite the fact that he doesn't believe it himself. He really is the Father of History.
The Histories
by Herodotus
tr by George Rawlinson
Book II -- Euterpe
I was particularly anxious to learn from them why the Nile, at the commencement of the summer solstice, begins to rise, and continues to increase for a hundred days -- and why, as soon as that number is past, it forthwith retires and contracts its stream, continuing low during the whole of the winter until the summer solstice comes round again... Some of the Greeks, however, wishing to get a reputation for cleverness, have offered explanations of the phenomena of the river, for which they have accounted in three different ways... One pretends that the Etesian winds cause the rise of the river by preventing the Nile-water from running off into the sea... The second opinion is even more unscientific... that the Nile acts so strangely, because it flows from the ocean, and that the ocean flows all round the earth. The third explanation, which is very much more plausible than either of the others, is positively the furthest from the truth... that the inundation of the Nile is caused by the melting of snows. Now, as the Nile flows out of Libya, through Ethiopia, into Egypt, how is it possible that it can be formed of melted snow, running, as it does, from the hottest regions of the world into cooler countries? ...I will therefore proceed to explain what I think to be the reason of the Nile's swelling in the summer time. During the winter, the sun is driven out of his usual course by the storms, and removes to the upper parts of Libya. This is the whole secret in the fewest possible words; for it stands to reason that the country to which the Sun-god approaches the nearest, and which he passes most directly over, will be scantest of water, and that there the streams which feed the rivers will shrink the most.

42 posted on 04/04/2007 11:56:17 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (I last updated my profile on Monday, April 2, 2007. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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To: SunkenCiv

Then the Anglo-Saxons would have to have sailed down the coast to opposite Dover I guess where could visiually see Britain and then across initally.

I did read a book that indicated the Romans may have settled the Anglo-Saxons along the east coast of Britain as foederati to help protect it against attacks by other Anglo-Saxons. Later, after the Roman legions were withdrawn the Saxons turned on the native Britons.

But then there is that story about Port and Hengist and Horsa. Interesting stuff.

The Vikings had no problem crossing open waters not much later than the Anglo-Saxons, but their skills and ships were probably superior.

Check this out:

http://www.kami.demon.co.uk/gesithas/index.html

You have to download the Media player to hear the Angl-Saxon speech. It sounds Germanic and looks it also.


43 posted on 04/04/2007 12:02:28 PM PDT by ZULU (Non nobis, non nobis Domine, sed nomini tuo da gloriam. God, guts and guns made America great.)
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To: SunkenCiv

Yeah, but they had to come from somewhere and be somebody.

What’s a mere couple of hundred years in three thousand among feuding historians and archeologists.


44 posted on 04/04/2007 3:02:37 PM PDT by wildbill
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To: SunkenCiv

interesting.


45 posted on 04/04/2007 3:29:46 PM PDT by ken21 (it takes a village to brainwash your child + to steal your property! /s)
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To: RightWhale

Sure, we have to tighten up Herodotus. But what would we know about great swathes of ancient history and practice but for Herodotus?


46 posted on 04/04/2007 3:50:44 PM PDT by Vicomte13 (Le chien aboie; la caravane passe.)
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To: Vicomte13

If Herodotus were as Algore wooden-dull a writer as Aristotle we still wouldn’t have a clue what went on. He was a fine storyteller even though not a poet. Anyway I assume he was not a poet since he was merely relating tales he had picked up in his barhopping travels.


47 posted on 04/04/2007 3:57:20 PM PDT by RightWhale (3 May '07 3:14 PM)
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To: RightWhale
Heroditus was a collector of myths and folktales. Entertaining, but not history.

In the absence of written history, sometimes myth, legend and folktales carry some of the truth of things. Besides, we see, even in recent times, how 'history' can be written to push an agenda or point of view.

48 posted on 04/04/2007 4:01:42 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: SuziQ

Not one in ten has any idea what history is about. Vico has a handle on the purpose of myth. ‘New Science’ is fascinating, especially as he is a philologist and likes to trace origins of words just as well as do Hegel and Heidegger.


49 posted on 04/04/2007 4:12:17 PM PDT by RightWhale (3 May '07 3:14 PM)
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To: Celtjew Libertarian

Thank the gods, I thought I was blind.


50 posted on 04/04/2007 5:41:20 PM PDT by Sam Ketcham (Amnesty means vote dilution, & increased taxes to bring us down to the world poverty level.)
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